Armory Sponsor
Posted: 6/10/2011 7:55:14 AM EDT
I got to shoot an MP5 SD last week. It was select fire with burst and full auto and had a side-folding buttstock. I obviously had a great time shooting it and had a few questions. I am an NFA newbie so bear wth me.
1. What are the odds of finding one of these for sale? 2. What would be a fair market value for one? 3. Since it is select-fire, SBR, and suppressed, does that change anything or is it still 1 tax stamp? Anything else I should now about this particular weapon? Thanks, Hagdaddy |
|
That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one?
1. SBR doesn't matter on a machinegun. No additional stamp necessary 2. Suppressor (silencer) is a different matter. It is considered a firearm in and of itself and requires its own $200 tax stamp. 3. Market value? Lots. Someone else will know better than me. Ruben has an MP5A3 for $18495 right now. |
|
Quoted:
That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one? 1. SBR doesn't matter on a machinegun. No additional stamp necessary 2. Suppressor (silencer) is a different matter. It is considered a firearm in and of itself and requires its own $200 tax stamp. 3. Market value? Lots. Someone else will know better than me. Ruben has an MP5A3 for $18495 right now. Some more info to add to yours. 1. SBR can matter. With the HK's, you can buy a sear, which would be the little piece of metal that is installed in the pack to get the select fire. This is usually the most preferred way to go. So in this case, SBR does matter, because if you take the sear out of the host weapon, if the host gun does not have a barrel of 16"+, then you have an unregistered SBR. The host gun is fine if it has the short barrel, even if the registered part is a "sear", because the sear is "married" to the host weapon. As in, you can't take the sear out to use it on another host, with out first registering the host as an SBR. Or the host weapon could have been built as a pistol, so when the sear is taking out, you have to be sure to take any fore grips or stocks off it. 2. The suppressor usually does matter, but like NAM said, ATF used to allow the MG to trump all. My first SD was a two stamp gun, one for the sear, and one for the SBR. But the suppressor was not made mention of. We asked the ATF when they were at the shop for an inspection, they said it was fine. I was never too keen on it, but ended up selling it, so I guess that doesn't much matter at this point. But like you said, 99% of the time, the suppressor is a 2nd(or 3rd) stamp. But he is asking about MP5SD's, so I know there are more of them out there like mine, so figured it was worth mentioning. 3. Market value really depends on how the gun was converted(sears run $10-$14k) and the host that its in(clones can be had for $2200+/- where SD clones built on HK94's can run you north of $5k) so I'd say a sear MP5SD would run you $18-$22k. A double pushpin SD would be $24k+? And a RR would likely be $17-$19k. I've seen them go for more, and for less, so those are just to give some input to it. |
|
Quoted:
That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one? If it was last Friday up around DeSoto then it probably was the same one. 
Thanks for all the info guys. I guess this is gonna be WAY out of my price range. I will just have to settle on playing with my department issued M4.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one? If it was last Friday up around DeSoto then it probably was the same one.
Thanks for all the info guys. I guess this is gonna be WAY out of my price range. I will just have to settle on playing with my department issued M4.
Of course the other option is to have your dept issue you an MP5SD. They can get one for $2200 or so right from HK.
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one? If it was last Friday up around DeSoto then it probably was the same one.
Thanks for all the info guys. I guess this is gonna be WAY out of my price range. I will just have to settle on playing with my department issued M4.
Of course the other option is to have your dept issue you an MP5SD. They can get one for $2200 or so right from HK. Wouldn't getting one and chopping it be the cheapest way to go? Are integrally suppressed guns that much quieter if at all than a good suppressor? |
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one? If it was last Friday up around DeSoto then it probably was the same one.
Thanks for all the info guys. I guess this is gonna be WAY out of my price range. I will just have to settle on playing with my department issued M4.
Of course the other option is to have your dept issue you an MP5SD. They can get one for $2200 or so right from HK. Wouldn't getting one and chopping it be the cheapest way to go? Are integrally suppressed guns that much quieter if at all than a good suppressor? The MP5SD is one of the quietest guns I've ever shot. Plus with the way they ported the barrel, its made to run with the supersonic 115gr ammo, which is cheaper to buy. If you are talking about chopping up a post sample, the SD wouldn't be the best choice, as you'd have to chop the suppressor too. And I doubt his dept would be too happy about him chopping a issued gun.  (unless of course I missed what you were asking about chopping the gun) And even if he did chop a post sample, it would likely cost him about the same money, because parts kits can be had sub $1500, and a new MP5 from HK would cost him more then that to start with.
Don't get me wrong, my MP5 with a can is pretty darn quiet, but I have to shoot the 147gr ammo to be able to get rid of the sonic crack. So its a little more to shoot it where the SD you don't have to worry about that. |
|
Just FWIW ... the factory SD used some extreme porting to slow down every possible 115- and 124-gr ammo ... to the point where it often brings terminal ballistics down to .380 levels. That's one of the reasons why folks rarely run factory SDs at subgun matches: They are not effective at knocking down steel poppers.
I went through this with Lee Minor when he was developing the LRM M169 (an integrally suppressed 9mm upper for the M16, for those who don't remember). The prototypes were way quiet ... but they about equalled the factory SD in both decibels and knockdown power. Lee went through five different design generations before finding one that was still quiet, yet had enough knockdown energy to compete in subgun matches. BTW, one of the routes we used was to shoot 147+P or 158-gr 9mm ammo. Even after bleeding down to subsonic through the porting, the bullet weight gave you knockdown power. FWIW, HK does not recommend use of 147-gr ammo –– in fact, doing so voids the factory warranty on the SD. Not that you need to worry about factory support on a transferable SD (LOL!) but HK says that their porting, at least, is not compatible with heavy projectiles. Just some background info, for the day when you plunk down that $18k.
A gratuitous video of me shooting 115-gr ammo through the fifth-generation M169 –– on full-auto, it sounds exactly the same as suppressed .22RF does on FA: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSywfVdz_0g And yes, I still want to own an HK. Just not a factory SD. 
|
|
Quoted:
Tony, there aren't any factory SD's that are transferable, are there? I was 99% sure there wasn't. Just wondering from your comment you wouldn't want a factory SD.  You're right, there aren't any transferables. I was thinking pre-dealer samples, which are as easy to get if you happen to be an FFL/SOT ...
|
|
Quoted:
Quoted:
Tony, there aren't any factory SD's that are transferable, are there? I was 99% sure there wasn't. Just wondering from your comment you wouldn't want a factory SD. You're right, there aren't any transferables. I was thinking pre-dealer samples, which are as easy to get if you happen to be an FFL/SOT ...
Fair enough. I knew about the pre samples. I'd be hard pressed to pay the extra to get one of those, seeing as the likes of RDTS does such nice work with the clones. |
|
Quoted: Quoted: That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one? If it was last Friday up around DeSoto then it probably was the same one. Thanks for all the info guys. I guess this is gonna be WAY out of my price range. I will just have to settle on playing with my department issued M4. It didnt belong to Dave Gilmore did it? He's one of our local dealers, if so I've shot it as well. If so that one is not transferable but ridiculously fun  |
|
Quoted: I think I still have the picture of your shit-eating grin after shooting it..Quoted: Quoted: That's funny, I just shot an MP5 last week also! Wonder if it was the same one? If it was last Friday up around DeSoto then it probably was the same one. Thanks for all the info guys. I guess this is gonna be WAY out of my price range. I will just have to settle on playing with my department issued M4. It didnt belong to Dave Gilmore did it? He's one of our local dealers, if so I've shot it as well. If so that one is not transferable but ridiculously fun |
| You could always go the semi auto route like I did. It's still a 2 stamp gun (SBR & Silencer) but much cheaper than the buzz gun. Mine is an RDTS but in all honesty I woulnd't use Ralph again simply because the gun wasn't what I hoped it would be as far as detail is concerned. Now, if all you're concerned about it quiet, then the RDTS can is just that. I've shot mine side by side with a late model factory SD and it was quieter. I built mine on a Bobcat factory SBR but now all that's left is the receiver, everything else is RDTS or German. |
|
Quoted:
You could always go the semi auto route like I did. It's still a 2 stamp gun (SBR & Silencer) but much cheaper than the buzz gun. Mine is an RDTS but in all honesty I woulnd't use Ralph again simply because the gun wasn't what I hoped it would be as far as detail is concerned. Now, if all you're concerned about it quiet, then the RDTS can is just that. I've shot mine side by side with a late model factory SD and it was quieter. I built mine on a Bobcat factory SBR but now all that's left is the receiver, everything else is RDTS or German. What didn't you like about RTDS? I've only ever heard good things about their work. |
|
Well let me begin by saying that I didn’t do enough research on the SD before sending my A2 off. I was under the impression that RDTS did a SD clone that was as close to a real deal HK as you could get. I was wrong and that’s my fault and I don’t hold that against the company because I should have asked the right questions. For those that don’t know, RDTS modifies the original cocking tube rather than making a copy of the HK part, does not use the SD trunnion, does not copy the SD hand guard clip, modifies the locking piece instead of replacing it, and uses a silencer thread that is not compatible with anyone else’s’ can.
That stuff aside the issues I had were the following…Ralph didn't mark the gun the way I specified. He marked it MP5SD and I wanted the –N as well. When it came back the cocking handle wouldn't lock open properly and the support was dragging inside the tube. When the gun was returned (several months later than projected) it was sent less my original forearm, A2 stock and 15 round magazine and shipped with no SD hand guard. The SD guard was on back order which was understandable but it took 4 phone calls to get a hold of him to find that out as all that was included in the box was the gun and invoice with a note on it that the gun wouldn’t function with the Bobcat bolt/carrier. Basically I got a gun back that wouldn’t feed, the cocking handle drug and wouldn’t lock open, and was missing parts. Within a couple weeks (after getting a hold of Ralph) he sent my A2 stock and magazine along with a check for the amount it cost for a SD guard. I was told that my cocking tube was welded wrong from Bobcat and was the reason for it not locking open and that’s just how it was and he explained that he kept my forearm as a "partial trade" toward the SD unit. He also recommended buying a new HK bolt and carrier (which solved the feed issue).The marking he offered to make right but I couldn't get it back out due to scheduling (I work overseas).Eventually I fixed the support dragging myself while I was in gunsmith school. Now don't get me wrong Ralph did offer to make some of it right (the marking) and I didn’t send it back. But after my initial taste why would I want another bite of a shit sammich? The can is great but the overall experience was bad enough that I wouldn't recommend him to anyone and have talked a few people out of sending him things because of it. For the money I paid and for a guy who is purported to be one of the "top" HK smiths in the country I felt that the service and work I got should have been MUCH better. Especially since I told him I wanted it 100% right and didn't care what it cost. Bottom line, send your stuff to TSC, Ghilliebear, Bill Flemming or damn near anyone else but don’t waste your money with Ralph. |
| Gottca. Yeah, can't blame you there. I've seen his work with a couple of MP5SD/40's, and they were top notch. But they were also built using HK94's as hosts and postie MP5/40's, and I know he likes doing those kind of builds the most. Just not everyone is looking to do a $8k build. Thanks for the info though, I'll have to remember that if I send him work. |
|
Quoted:
Eventually I fixed the support dragging myself while I was in gunsmith school. Was this a complicated fix? I recently acquired a RDTS-done MP5k-SD, and I've been working back and forth with Ralph via phone and e-mail to debug a few things. One which we hadn't touched upon was difficulty with the cocking tube quite similar to what you described. Per Ralph's records, this was a build from an HK done by him back in '91 or '92, so there's no issue about Bobca'ts welds here. I'd prefer not to send the gun out of state if I can describe to a local 'smith how to do what I need done. Any info you can share appreciated. FWIW, Ralph has been pretty helpful to me. |
| On my gun the issue was that the cocking tube had acquired a slight ding during assembly or shipping that slightly bent the ear (the hump that holds the cocking knob up when you lock the bolt open) and all that was required was to turn a piece of drill rod to the appropriate size and tap it in to bend it back out. Something that I have seen with a (no-name smith) build was when the cocking tube was welded on the receiver a small piece of slag hung up at the seam and wasn't caught. That too was an easy fix with a dowel rod and sand paper but from what I understand, HK and some of the other (better) builders use a sized reamer after welding to ensure proper size of the tube ID and that no slag remains. |
Armory Sponsor