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Posted: 1/12/2010 4:42:58 PM EDT
| I see a few community colleges offer programs......none in my area. I have also noticed there are online programs..........I have been thinking of signing up for one of these online programs....thoughts? |
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I see a few community colleges offer programs......none in my area. I have also noticed there are online programs..........I have been thinking of signing up for one of these online programs....thoughts? I have never heard one good thing about online or correspondence courses for gunsmithing.....other academics yes....gunsmithing no |
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The biggest problem with taking an online gunsmithing program is the fact that alot of gunsmithing includes both machining and welding. Without having either the machines to learn on or experience operating those machines alot of what is presented really won't make sense. Or at worst someone just decides to do things with a grinder or a dremal and really tears something up.
A few years ago I started on the AGI Master Gunsmithing course and will be finishing it here soon as finances are finally allowing it again. Now before anybody here says anything I'll explain a few things. I have been a machinist for the better part of 20 years and I am also a certified welder in most types of welding up to and includung TIG on some of the exotic metals. I have built a few of my own firearms including a .50 cal. What works for me may or may not work for others. I would recommend that if you do not have machining and welding experience that you seek more formal training. There are to many factors that come into play to learn some of this on the fly. |
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The biggest problem with taking an online gunsmithing program is the fact that alot of gunsmithing includes both machining and welding. Without having either the machines to learn on or experience operating those machines alot of what is presented really won't make sense. Or at worst someone just decides to do things with a grinder or a dremal and really tears something up. A few years ago I started on the AGI Master Gunsmithing course and will be finishing it here soon as finances are finally allowing it again. Now before anybody here says anything I'll explain a few things. I have been a machinist for the better part of 20 years and I am also a certified welder in most types of welding up to and includung TIG on some of the exotic metals. I have built a few of my own firearms including a .50 cal. What works for me may or may not work for others. I would recommend that if you do not have machining and welding experience that you seek more formal training. There are to many factors that come into play to learn some of this on the fly. Did you do the DVD professional courses through AGI? Did you find it worth the money and did it have enough in depth educational material to consider yourself a gunsmith when you are done? The reason I ask is that I have recently started to look into "officially" learning more, and can't just up and go to a physical school located 600 miles or more away. I have welding experience and some machinist experience, own plenty of welding equipment, including a small TIG and I have access to a mill and lathe. |
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No correspondence or online course will qualify you to be a "real" gunsmith.
They can do okay if all you want is to do hobby work strictly for yourself, but won't do for working on customer guns. While "better than nothing" these just aren't appropriate for an actual gunsmith who takes money to work on other peoples guns. One major reason they aren't good is because there really isn't an actual instructor, and no expert ever sees your work. For this reason, you have no idea if you're really doing things right. In addition, the "school" doesn't care if you're not learning the material or even if you're a hopeless hack, all they care about is you pay the fees. Whether you actually learn the material or if you're just butchering guns is of no concern to them. If you intend to be a commercial gunsmith, the best way is to bite the bullet and attend one of the real gunsmithing schools. |
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No correspondence or online course will qualify you to be a "real" gunsmith. They can do okay if all you want is to do hobby work strictly for yourself, but won't do for working on customer guns. While "better than nothing" these just aren't appropriate for an actual gunsmith who takes money to work on other peoples guns. One major reason they aren't good is because there really isn't an actual instructor, and no expert ever sees your work. For this reason, you have no idea if you're really doing things right. In addition, the "school" doesn't care if you're not learning the material or even if you're a hopeless hack, all they care about is you pay the fees. Whether you actually learn the material or if you're just butchering guns is of no concern to them. If you intend to be a commercial gunsmith, the best way is to bite the bullet and attend one of the real gunsmithing schools. I would agree with everything you said. With one exception, if your a hopeless hack your work will suck and it will take care of itself. At some point a person must be responsible and accountable for themselves and I don't think even a physical school can do that. We all know people that we can't believe graduated from this that or the other. |
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True, but the top schools WILL let you know if you just don't have the talent, BEFORE you spend big money in trying to start a business, or ruin other peoples guns and get sued, or before you spend all that money only to discover that your "degree" is worthless and you can't find a job.
That's one big advantage of a school. You have an actual gunsmith/teacher looking over your shoulder and inspecting your work. If you're doing it wrong, he'll tell you so you can correct your technique. If you're doing it right but need to improve the technique, he'll tell you. If you're doing it right but there's a better way, he'll tell you, And if you're doing it wrong, and don't seem to be "getting it", they'll let you know that too....one way or another. I was originally trained as a watchmaker in a professional school. I saw people there who just didn't have the talent or skills and just couldn't do the work. The instructors started out with constructive criticism of their work, then went to tougher criticism, then to failing grades, then in a couple of cases where they just weren't getting through to them they took them aside and had a little "Dutch Uncle" talk with them. |
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No correspondence or online course will qualify you to be a "real" gunsmith. They can do okay if all you want is to do hobby work strictly for yourself, but won't do for working on customer guns. While "better than nothing" these just aren't appropriate for an actual gunsmith who takes money to work on other peoples guns. One major reason they aren't good is because there really isn't an actual instructor, and no expert ever sees your work. For this reason, you have no idea if you're really doing things right. In addition, the "school" doesn't care if you're not learning the material or even if you're a hopeless hack, all they care about is you pay the fees. Whether you actually learn the material or if you're just butchering guns is of no concern to them. If you intend to be a commercial gunsmith, the best way is to bite the bullet and attend one of the real gunsmithing schools. No disrespect, but I gotta call bullshit on this. All because someone has a degree on the wall or went to some big name school doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Some of the best I've seen have learned on their own. This is part of the problem in this country. Everyone believes that in order to be able to do something, you have to have a "formal" education. The guy who taught me during my machinist apprenticeship could barely read and could only do basic math. And I have yet to see his equal. He had a natural apptitude for it. The AGI courses have worked great for ME. They may or may not work for others. I have the VHS ones and will be replacing them with the DVD versions soon. The nice thing about them is the fact that if I would happen to get into a job I haven't done for a few years, I can refer back to tthe DVD's and get it right. It is up to the individual to find out what works for them and to follow through with it. I can't stand schools. I never could. Hell, I barely graduated high school. Now I am a a journeyman machinist who has been involved in everything from the design phase of a part to rapid prototyping to troubleshooting a part in everything from aerospace and defense to what I'm doing now. Edit: can't spell for shit tonignt. Need beer. 
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No correspondence or online course will qualify you to be a "real" gunsmith. They can do okay if all you want is to do hobby work strictly for yourself, but won't do for working on customer guns. While "better than nothing" these just aren't appropriate for an actual gunsmith who takes money to work on other peoples guns. One major reason they aren't good is because there really isn't an actual instructor, and no expert ever sees your work. For this reason, you have no idea if you're really doing things right. In addition, the "school" doesn't care if you're not learning the material or even if you're a hopeless hack, all they care about is you pay the fees. Whether you actually learn the material or if you're just butchering guns is of no concern to them. If you intend to be a commercial gunsmith, the best way is to bite the bullet and attend one of the real gunsmithing schools. No disrespect, but I gotta call bullshit on this. All because someone has a degree on the wall or went to some big name school doesn't mean they know what they are doing. Some of the best I've seen have learned on their own. This is part of the problem in this country. Everyone believes that in order to be able to do something, you have to have a "formal" education. The guy who taught me during my machinist apprenticeship could barely read and could only do basic math. And I have yet to see his equal. He had a natural apptitude for it. The AGI courses have worked great for ME. They may or may not work for others. I have the VHS ones and will be replacing them with the DVD versions soon. The nice thing about them is the fact that if I would happen to get into a job I haven't done for a few years, I can refer back to tthe DVD's and get it right. It is up to the individual to find out what works for them and to follow through with it. I can't stand schools. I never could. Hell, I barely graduated high school. Now I am a a journeyman machinist who has been involved in everything from the design phase of a part to rapid prototyping to troubleshooting a part in everything from aerospace and defense to what I'm doing now. Edit: can't spell for shit tonignt. Need beer.
but you are talking about the exception not the rule....just saying....I did an online course and then went to a school....I learned lots more at the school exponentially .... but your point is well taken.... |
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Of course you don't "have" to go to a formal school. A number of top gunsmiths are self-trained.
I was trained as a watchmaker, but I taught myself how to do factory level repairs to Colt double action revolvers, using what documentation there was available from Colt. The difference there was, as a Master watchmaker the intricate Colt action with tiny working surfaces was HUGE to someone used to working on tiny watch movements, and I simply had the talent for the work. The point is, yes some people can take an online or mail course or even self train and be experts. However, this is definitely the exception. Over 30 years most of my work was trade work sent in by other gunsmiths who didn't know Colt's or shops or who didn't do in-shop gunsmithing. A good bit of my work was as a "life boat" for gunsmiths who figured that the Colt's were just another gun and that since they knew S&W or Ruger they could figure the Colt out. When they couldn't and got into trouble, they sent them in to me to correct. I saw a LOT of work from people who weren't formally trained, and a large percentage of it was botch jobs. The point is, these were people running businesses as gunsmiths and doing hack work, but simply didn't know they were hacks. These people were of the old gunsmithing tradition of "get it to work....somehow". Yes, they often got guns working, but they were really butchering good guns. That attitude of getting it to work no matter if it's "right" or not is no longer acceptable to todays customers. Hand a customer back his treasured gun these days with a part silver soldered on or some crude home made part and you're in trouble. Last, have a "degree" from an online or mail order business and try to get a job with it, and the potential employer will file your application in the trash can. These days, a business simply can't take a chance on someone with qualifications like that. True enough, the applicant with a degree from a top gunsmithing school COULD turn out to be a boob, but at least the employer has a yard stick to judge whether or not to give him a shot. So, you can find school trained gunsmiths, watchmakers, car mechanics, and other skilled people who are incompetent, and you can find self-trained people who are masters of the trade, but if you're a business hiring him, or a customer wanting work done, you want some indication of competency other then "trust me". The other side of that is whether YOU really KNOW if you're competent. Again, many of my customers were working gunsmiths who were taking money for gunsmithing. Many were very good, but way too many simply had no idea that what they were doing was flat out gun butchery. I very often talked to these people about correct techniques or simply level of workmanship and got that "deer in the headlights" look, when they had no idea that their work substandard. They were fine when it came to mounting a scope, replacing minor parts, or doing small jobs, but when it got to the real gunsmith techniques they just weren't competent and DIDN'T KNOW IT. They didn't know it because no real expert had ever seen their work and could tell them it was substandard. Most were quite willing to correct once they knew they didn't know, but some simply lacked the talent. All this would have been detected and corrected in a real school, and worse come to worse they would get that "Dutch Uncle" talk. So, you don't HAVE to attend a school, and you can self-train with a mail or online course, but you really need a verified expert to check you to insure you really have it. Too many never get the check and that's why they quickly blow out a business or wind up hacking other peoples guns to scrap. |
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I do agree with alot of what you guys are saying. There are a lot of hacks out there with degrees who are just that. But there are those that aren't.
The AGI videos are taught by guys like Roy Dunlap, Darrel Holland, and a handful of others I can't think of right now. Try getting a rifle built by Darrell right now. Time will tell on how it works out. I have alot of people waiting right now on me getting a shop open. Some of them I work with have told me if I do half as good on their rifles as I do on the parts I make at work, they would be extremely pleased. I was taught that if a jopb is worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time. And if I don't know how to do i, then I better find out before I tear something up. |
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I do agree with alot of what you guys are saying. There are a lot of hacks out there with degrees who are just that. But there are those that aren't. The AGI videos are taught by guys like Roy Dunlap, Darrel Holland, and a handful of others I can't think of right now. Try getting a rifle built by Darrell right now. Time will tell on how it works out. I have alot of people waiting right now on me getting a shop open. Some of them I work with have told me if I do half as good on their rifles as I do on the parts I make at work, they would be extremely pleased. I was taught that if a jopb is worth doing, it's worth doing right the first time. And if I don't know how to do i, then I better find out before I tear something up. the AGI videos are a great resource....and Dunlap is a great instructor in real life...
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I've done the self teaching, the apprenticeship, and the school in various disciplines, and I can safely say that there's absolutely no substitute for professional/expert feedback.
I've been cobbling on these things for a good number of years, off and on, and I have built parts from scratch using hand tools (not a machinist...yet), usually for customers with old guns for which (at the time) there was no parts tree. If you wanted the weapon to work, you made the piece. But it was always an exciting event when the first post-repair round went downrange. While I wouldn't mind having the documentation the online courses offer (assuming it's valid) as a reference, now that I'm considering pursuing smithing in earnest, I'm looking at an actual school with people who can provide feedback as to whether I'm doing things right or wrong on the spot. (Trinidad is about 300 miles away  )
I could probably manage not to kill anybody with a correspondence course–– after all, I've been fixing guns for nearly twenty years with no training at all, and none has yet blown up, but when you're dealing with potentially deadly mishaps (as opposed, say, to a computer board failing where only your player character expires) I'd rather not trust that diploma from Hard Knocks U. |
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You'll probably make it just fine, because you have the right attitude.
The better gunsmiths get more and more careful and conservative as they get older and more experienced. Its the younger, new gunsmiths that push the envelope and do things that are risky. Trinidad has the reputation of being right up there with Colorado School of Trades for being the best. In addition, Trinidad offers business classes and they issue a college degree that has real substance. |
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Most of my guns have been torn down to every last pin and screw at some point or another. Including a trigger job I did on my Marlin 30AS (my favorite). All function the same or better than before. I fixed a shotgun for a friend awhile ago and have been getting asked to do others. Hence going back to finish the courses.
Alot of the parts I make have to be perfect or a catastrophic failure costing millions would happen. Talk about a stress level. This may have to wait a little now as I was just moved to a "Special Projects" crew, complete with non-disclosure policies. 
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I've been cobbling on these things for a good number of years, off and on, and I have built parts from scratch using hand tools (not a machinist...yet), usually for customers with old guns for which (at the time) there was no parts tree. If you wanted the weapon to work, you made the piece. But it was always an exciting event when the first post-repair round went downrange. You should try getting a handful of little pieces handed to you and asked to make a new one.
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. The better gunsmiths get more and more careful and conservative as they get older and more experienced. Its the younger, new gunsmiths that push the envelope and do things that are risky. Does this mean that I won't build my 30mm sniper rifle later in life? I have a set of plans drawn up. |
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I've been cobbling on these things for a good number of years, off and on, and I have built parts from scratch using hand tools (not a machinist...yet), usually for customers with old guns for which (at the time) there was no parts tree. If you wanted the weapon to work, you made the piece. But it was always an exciting event when the first post-repair round went downrange. You should try getting a handful of little pieces handed to you and asked to make a new one. What? Again!? 
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