Deleted at polite request of OP.

Im out guys.  Not the crowd I was hoping for here.  The world of swiss firearm collectors is lonely lol nobody ever knows what you have lol.  It was nice for a bit.  Have fun.

You LOVE it !    

You are mad cause ya did not get the answer you wanted .

No I know what 922r is.  I just didn't realize people here would be absolutely obsessed with it.  I have had many 922r guns I've had to add parts to.  HK UMP conversion, many saigas, cz scorpion sbr etc, etc.

I've literally never had anyone on a gun forum asking about what parts I used to make something compliant or imply I have contraband. Nobody has ever cared but you.   The way it comes across just makes me not really want to stick around.  Next thing you will ask about the form 1 for the 553 and or show the engraving etc. My guns are legal but it's just not worth the effort.

Deleted

Ok buddy.  Take care.

All the best and fair winds.

Stick around. I've enjoyed learning about the imports.

Don't let some random tool kick you out.

Fair Winds to All !

Agreed.  I recently discussed this with a guy on GB that was taken for thousands of dollars upon purchase SIG 55x Pistol sold as a Rifle.

Are you talking about this gun?

That analogy doesn't work.... People that buy a SIG pistol and convert it to a rifle, even with 922r parts, are still SIG setups. An individual slapping a Ferrari body kit on a Camaro, Mustang, etc isn't a Ferrari and never was a Ferrari.

Your posts seem to be more antagonizing, at this point, than informational.

Negative. Swiss Factory assembly with 100% Swiss parts means everything.  

Your term " SIG Set-up"  sounds like a personal rationalization regarding a gun you own.  

There’s only so many of the 20 922r parts that can be swapped out in these rifles… trigger, hammer, sear, bolt, carrier, oprod (charging handle), grip, floor plate, and follower. It’s not hard to determine which to switch and no need for people on the internet to conduct an inquisition into what specific people decided to switch on their specific rifle. It’s still a Sig rifle either way.

Nope, don't own any SIGs beyond a couple of MCX setups and a P320. Literally have 0 interest in buying a "100% Swiss parts" rifle.

I say again, your analogy sucks.

LOL and Dream on !  

Your statement makes no sense.  
Guns that don't need US parts can easily be identified from those that do not.

The predators rely on " confusion"  just like you tried to do.

Swiss Rifle is a Swiss Rifle.
The rest are Parts guns or 922r contraband.

Funny how the only folks that argued with me are the have not's and owners contraband.

Sorry Pal.

If you have "zero Interest" yet still commented on my analogy?  

That means you liked it.  Thanks Man !

As much fun as this is , I gotta go , my plane is leaving.  

Gonna go check out Roland Garros.

Parts guns and pickle ball are fun but Swiss Guns and Roland Garros are different.

Please don't be mad at the internet.

Not at all, I commented on it as you gave a horrible analogy.

A SIG pistol coming into USA and being modified to be a rifle, with 922r parts or even "illegally" without 922r parts, is still a SIG.

I can have 0 interest in owning a "Swiss" rifle and still point out a shitty analogy, which you gave.

That’s your opinion and it’s not a wildly held one. There are so many guns from so many different manufacturers imported now that have US parts added for compliance and none of them are considered “parts guns” except maybe by you.

And I’m pretty sure accusing others of illegal activity without evidence is not permitted in a tech forum.

By his analogy all of the FN SCARs prior to about 2019 are parts guns.

Wrong again.  
The thread is about 100 % Swiss Rifles.  You have no knowledge on the subject.

"  uh, permitted in tech forum"   9000+ posts.
Are you gonna tell the teacher.    I laugh in your face !

Go away before I taunt you for a second time.    -Monty Python.

wrong. This thread is about 100% Swiss Rifles.  You have no knowledge on the subject.

Not the same gun but a perfect example of a post import.  Good eye.
Funny, SAN was not in existence in 89' and extremely doubt Dave imported it for a police agency which then sold it to Mischole.

You ran off the OP with palaver and pedantic nonsense, that most everyone believes is BS. Good job.

The OP was asking about the value of 100% Swiss SIG 55X RIFLES.  Then he realized that 922r really is " a thing".

Then a bunch of the "unknowing" realized that 922r drives the pre-ban market.

Sometimes the truth hurts.  

Why are you here and why are you upset?
Can you show us on the doll?  

I don't know if I am coming across as pathetic or anything but I am just having a really hard time right now.  I probably let this bother me much when normally I wouldn't give fuck.

I pretty much had to disown my 18YO son yesterday.   I don't want to go into details but he has been a struggle his whole life.  It doesn't make sense because my other 2 kids have zero issues and have been raised the same.

I feel like a shell of a person.  I am just trying to hold it together at work at the moment.  It is obviously effecting my demeanor.

Anyway I am done here especially now that I have aired my laundry.  I do not agree with hobo's assessment but he has the right to hold that view.

In real life, you come across aa good man and father to me as I expressed to you via PM.  I pray that is it something that can  healed/fixed.

Please know that internet arguing is just sport.

You brought up a very IMPORTANT thing and my have saved someone some $$$ No joke.

Not sure why these late to the game retards want to spar with me but I'm always up to it. LOL

So the guy that bought that gun posted it on gunbroker…at or above what he paid for it. I was curious about it.

Unfortunately for him, even those green double dimple guns have been selling for around half what he paid. And the SAN import mark is in a bad location, where it’s partially covered by the handguard and looks awful. Had a mismatched stock too (wrong hinge color though correct whale tail type). Didn’t think I was gonna bother negotiating at that point.

I was talking to him about that gun and he bought it thinking it was a preban, when the only 20” I knew of were the Sigarms Herndon 550-1 SP and 550-2 SP. Mishaco wrote that this gun was made in the 80s, which is true except that it wasn’t imported until decades after 1989.

Dave Wagner actually confirmed he imported that gun as a pistol.

The only thing you’ve taught me is that you have one piece of knowledge (that many others here also have) that you’re trying to twist into some form of expertise.

Apparently you don’t understand your own analogy

I am wary of Mishhole for these very reason.  He is Famous for lying by omission. His gun descriptions will be pages long yet omit the most important details.

Michhole knows Dave and  must have been aware that SAN Imports is Dave's trade name.  
Michhole is also a terrible gun -grader as he is legally blind - not kidding.  He misses scratches in his descriptions.
I hope he sees this thread.  

Awesome catch on your part and maybe you saved somebody from losing their hard eard $$ on this or another deal in the future.  

ok, poke back.

ok, poke back.

I feel bad kinda like I'm being forced to fight a retarded kid.

Your are just too late to the party but your internal anger is noted.

I’m not really sure what you mean.

Just trying to figure out how something becomes a parts gun when you put US made Sig parts into it and how somehow that differs from what any other company importing pistols and converting them to rifles does.

During COVID there were retards bidding on gunbroker as high as $10K for basic JDI pistols without stocks, and plenty of neckbeards buying from Dave just to flip them. I don’t miss those times.

Very late to the party and genuinely curious and thinking I understand what's going on......

There are 100% Swiss guns and there are not-100% Swiss guns using 922-r parts.

The 100% Swiss guns are near impossible to obtain due to leaglity reasons.

The not-100% Swiss guns that are advertised as 100% Swiss guns but using aftermarket parts are flooding the market/inflating the prices.

The not-100% Swiss guns that are advertised as 100% Swiss guns use certain aftermarket parts to be able to be imported legally into the US.



I hope I'm correct on at least one of the above, but that's essentially what I'm taking away from this. Authenticity is either owned or lost.

I mean that misha guy is basically the latter still. I just snagged one of the Swiss Guard editions when Dave posted them and was happy to get it. Wouldn’t pay over his asking price though. And some of the asking prices for accessories are insane. I prefer to import them myself on a Form 6.

There are 100% Swiss guns that are either preban or imported for LE use (and thus legal in rifle form for import) and then sold off to the civilian market. They are legal but pricey due to rarity (also I think there's a perception that the older guns were higher quality than current production). These do not require 922r compliance.

There are so called "gray market" guns which are rifles that are purchased in europe from various sources and then taken apart and imported separately as uppers and lowers by various importers. These are questionable guns legality-wise for multiple reasons - some of them may have been former select fire guns, and generally ATF rules that once a rifle it can't be turned back into a pistol. You see these guns on gunbroker for sale regularly, and oftentimes they're sold without the receiver and lower mated.

There are current production Sig Sauer AG guns imported by JDI that are imported as pistols because they do not meet the legal requirements to be imported as rifles. They come in with the plate and pin covering the stock slot and, in order to be turned into rifles, require at least 7 parts of the 20 922(r) parts to be US made (based on the ATF letter that made determinations on which parts the Sig 550/PE90 have that count towards that count).

I believe there are a few other variations (such as the ones that Sig Sauer USA imported, as well as other small batches of imports during and after the ban) - I believe most of these were imported as pistols (the Sig Sauer USA imported SG553s, for example)

There are many parts available that are US made that count towards 922r. There are grips made by a small number of companies. There are magazine floorplates and followers available at a couple places. Sig Sauer USA 556/522/551A1 parts including the trigger, hammer, sear, bolt, bolt carrier, and charging handle (op-rod) are available from various sources (usually from complete rifles and pistols found on the secondary market) and are direct drop-in compatible replacements for the swiss parts. Given that Sig Sauer USA had full access to the specifications, drawings, and dimensions of the parts since they, like Sig Sauer AG and Sig Sauer GmBH, still remain under the same overall ownership, they're at worst the equivalent of license-built parts and at best they are simply Sig parts made in their US plant - while the 556 was overall not up to the build quality of the Swiss guns, the parts interchange and function perfectly. Of note, the furniture for the US rifles was not made in the US and does not count as 922r parts.

Most people would consider a pistol built up into rifle form using these parts to still be a Sig Sauer/SG550/PE90 rifle. Apparently some disagree.

Definitely, fortunately Dave hasn't been funneling special items like the Swiss Guard kit you mentioned or the recent 552's through him, though he does seem to get dibs on some things directly from Dave.

Attached File

You’re spouting off half baked theories as facts. It’s stupid, but common on discussion boards. The arrogance and temerity with which you do it is the part that makes you look retarded
922r is not necessarily  why collectors pay more for something  you can’t get any more of. Same reason HK94s sell for more than SP5s despite being a more modern,feature rich and updated version of the same guns. Their rarity in and of itself drives up the price and maintains it with collectors.You can buy new  SP5s. Can’t buy a new HK94. Sunk costs for people who’ve had multi thousand dollar guns and won’t part with them for less than perceived value, on and on with a dozen multi-varied reasons.

You’re not some Swiss sigarms or San oracle, just obnoxious for no reason.

My wife is in the bedroom dying of cancer. We all get shit on non stop. It just shows up in different forms. Stick around. We need your type here, if for anything to help each other out.

I hope that’s not directed at me. I personally don’t care what any law abiding citizen does with regard to our gun laws, because they are all completely unconstitutional. I personally choose to be above board, because for me the juice isn’t worth the squeeze to break a law that I can easily avoid breaking.

The fact remains that until we see 925(d)(3) and 922(r) ruled UNC’s, SIG 55x that don’t have any need of 922(r) compliance will likely always command a premium.

I suppose it’s semantics and the 1989 ban had something to do with it, but the reason people buy those older imports is simply because they’re rare, discontinued and that’s market. As you said yourself, it’s a narrow niche of collectors who value that for whatever reason. They are not turning most of those guns into shooters, which begs the question of, what is the point of having a 922r exempt safe queen?

My opinion throughout the thread is that 922r is not the driving decision behind every new SIG 55X’s owners purchase. Dave Wagner sells out on every drop (at least every one with a configuration that isn’t silly). Simply, people want SIGs and they will buy whatever configuration they are after that is within their means.

This post from earlier says it perfectly by comparing the HK94 and SP5… the latter which comes with the correct length barrel, F revision bolt and paddle release, yet doesn’t command as much resale.

As I understand it, there were (maybe still are) a ton of not fully completed uppers held in reserve and stuffed into caves in Switzerland.

It was common practice for SIG to take whatever was most readily available and use it to fulfill contracts. If a contract called for a semiautomatic rifle and they grabbed uppers that were fullauto, a denial block was welded in to cover the slot in the rail. As we all know, the semiautomatic Swiss uppers have a block welded in place with two spot welds. The fullauto uppers that were converted to semiauto have a longer block that is welded in place with three spot welds. Those upper receivers were made semiautomatic only by SIG before leaving the factory and in a manner that is not readily convertible, which I think any reasonable person would say makes them semiautomatic. The retired Stgw90 that are converted to PE90 are done so without welding the block, only by converting the lower.

I didn’t realize that the retired military guns only have lower modifications - thanks for the insights!

I submit that these guns are clearly post ban illegal rifle imports or pistols at best.



I respectfully disagree.  For most people , to own a 100% all Swiss Factory Assembled LEGAL Rifle would be considered the most desirable.
The market supports this statement.

+1 and prayers your way.

Sticks and stones.  :)

hk94 = Banned Rifle
SP5 =   Pistol
If you want to SBR the SP5 you will need US Parts.  

I remember in the late 80"s looking at the $900 sp89's at the local guns stores thinking, " well shit" I can buy a P7M13 for that.  
Btw, a registered HK sear went for about $700 back then.  

( still have that P7m13 and believe me that I was first in line for one of the New Euro SP5s when they hit the shores recently.)