Posted: 9/24/2011 7:39:43 AM EDT
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Factory Stock Class? This is not a rant just a concern where three gun is going. When we have to spend 3k or more per gun not to mention hundreds on gear to compete
at the top level I have concern. This is why I stopped competing in IPSC when I had to spend 5k or more, have a personal gun smith and search for a ammo sponsor I said enough ! This I am afraid is where 3 gun is going. Where is the practical ? With 100 round mags 250 round drums,10,20.30 round tubes for shotguns come on ! This is practical ?! Look at the same factory pros with no real turn over with the latest gadget on their gun or hip. We need more grass root sponsorship at the local levels. With today's economy the entry level shooter just wants to compete in the 3 disciplines offered in 3 gun at a practical and economical level. I would like to see a rise in practical stock class shooting all the way to the top ! I am a Combat Vet in Special Operations and a Ex Deputy Sheriff who is raising 4 boys and bringing them into this sport so you can see my expense  , but this is our hobby and am willing to pay to play to a limit. There are many discussions with in my concern just like to know where others stand?
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The most expensive aspect of competing at the top level is the incredible amount of time expended on PRACTICE. Second is the cost of the ammo. A very distant 3rd is the cost of gear.
For Tac Irons, a factory 20" DPMS w/ iron sights and a Glock w/ only better sights and mag extensions fit the bill as well as anything. Yes, a shooter is going to have to drop $1K on a good shotgun, but there are no cheap, good semi auto shotguns. (We still don't know what the Mossberg 3G shotgun will sell for when it finally comes out.) Skill will win over fancy equipment at every match. I've seen plenty of shooters show up w/ Swarovski Zi6 optics that were not zeroed. They still miss even w/ a $2K scope. A shooter can't buy skill. And someone forgot to tell Dave Sevigny he needed a $5k pistol to be competitive. BTW, thank you for your service. 
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I am with BPR here.
You get out what you put in as far and skill goes. Equipment is secondary. If it is reliable it wins. Without putting on the brag...I know many shooters, including those with the supposed 3K per gun have placed below me at Major matches when my equipment was a M14 a Winchester pump and a G21 pistol, all could be had for less than $2,100 in total. I would kindly ask that you step back into the ring with whatever you have and enjoy the sport for the sport itself, if winning must be accomplished then practice accordingly. It is more about range time then "shopping" time. I too thank you for your service to our country! Patrick |
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Thanks for the replies. I truly understand the time it takes at the range, I have put well over a million rounds down range thanks to my military experience.
As a civilian I agree with the both of you about its not just the equipment its the shooter. I would just like to celebrate the shooter uses a factory stock gun in his or her everyday use. I have $550 M&P Pistols and $3 k Pistols as well as numerous 1911's, AR's and Shotguns. I have been lucky enough to be able to shoot and own some of the best weapons made. There is just something to be said about shooting a bone stock pistol ,rifle ,and shot gun in a pure practical sense for which the sport ought to be ! I am with you about the sport, I just think we ought to celebrate the simplicity more ! |
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Thank you for your service.
I've been thinking about this a whole lot over the last two days. At first, I was pretty taken by the concept. I'm just getting into 3-gun, and it's somewhat frustrating to me that while I own 7 shotguns, none of them are appropriate to this game (I was a pretty competitive Sporting Clays shooter for a while). My rifle, while built with pretty decent parts, isn't free floated and doesn't have an optic. I was the only guy shooting irons at the last match. But the more I thought about it, there were two things that kept coming back to me. 3-gun, like USPSA, IDPA, High Power, or Bullseye, is an equipment-enabled sport. When was the last time someone was "competitive" at Camp Perry using a box stock AR-15, or an as-delivered Garand? How often do you see box-stock Colts in Bullseye? Most IDPA shooters may start with a stock Glock, but are immediately ditching the sights and maybe a couple other minor parts. The fact is, these games thrive on the ability of people to modify, customize, and tweak their firearms to suit their style, their personality, and their favorite color. Also, who would be the arbiter of what "stock" is? If you want it to be truly fair, you have to settle on three specific firearms, with no modifications. So you would have to state by SKU which Colt carbine, which Mossberg pump, and which Glock pistol are acceptable for competition. Otherwise, someone is going to make a "stock" rifle that comes with all the bells and whistles that the top shooters want (JP trigger, free-float barrel, etc) and then you're back to where you are right now. If you use a list of what is and is not allowed on a stock rifle, you disadvantage guys who happened to buy a Noveske that they saw at the gun shop, only to find out that it's not allowed in the 3-gun class they want to shoot. The second thing that kept bugging me was something that happened when I was first shooting sporting clays. I had a very good shooter take me under his wing, and we shot A LOT together. I shot what I could afford (a lower-end Beretta auto), but I lusted after a fully worked-over Seminole Custom or high-end O/U. My friend had the worked over Seminole gun, and after the first station (where I really sucked), I mentioned that I had developed a terrible flinch due to my gun's heavy trigger, and that I'd be guaranteed to shoot a ton better if I had a better gun. My friend told me we were switching guns. He proceeded to whip the crap out of me with my own gun. The reason you see the same folks at the top of the sport for years is because they're the best out there. These folks could whip us just as well with a stock gun as they could with their worked over guns. I can't believe that equipment counts for more than 5 - 10% of the difference. If you're good, you'll do well, regardless of the equipment. My own personal opinion is that what we need is a bit more standardization of rules and classes across events and geographic areas (so that you don't end up traveling to a match with unallowed equipment), and let it go. The arms race is a good thing, we're all ending up with better equipment from the factories as a result of it. |
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Quoted:
Thank you for your service. I've been thinking about this a whole lot over the last two days. At first, I was pretty taken by the concept. I'm just getting into 3-gun, and it's somewhat frustrating to me that while I own 7 shotguns, none of them are appropriate to this game (I was a pretty competitive Sporting Clays shooter for a while). My rifle, while built with pretty decent parts, isn't free floated and doesn't have an optic. I was the only guy shooting irons at the last match. But the more I thought about it, there were two things that kept coming back to me. 3-gun, like USPSA, IDPA, High Power, or Bullseye, is an equipment-enabled sport. When was the last time someone was "competitive" at Camp Perry using a box stock AR-15, or an as-delivered Garand? How often do you see box-stock Colts in Bullseye? Most IDPA shooters may start with a stock Glock, but are immediately ditching the sights and maybe a couple other minor parts. The fact is, these games thrive on the ability of people to modify, customize, and tweak their firearms to suit their style, their personality, and their favorite color. Also, who would be the arbiter of what "stock" is? If you want it to be truly fair, you have to settle on three specific firearms, with no modifications. So you would have to state by SKU which Colt carbine, which Mossberg pump, and which Glock pistol are acceptable for competition. Otherwise, someone is going to make a "stock" rifle that comes with all the bells and whistles that the top shooters want (JP trigger, free-float barrel, etc) and then you're back to where you are right now. If you use a list of what is and is not allowed on a stock rifle, you disadvantage guys who happened to buy a Noveske that they saw at the gun shop, only to find out that it's not allowed in the 3-gun class they want to shoot. The second thing that kept bugging me was something that happened when I was first shooting sporting clays. I had a very good shooter take me under his wing, and we shot A LOT together. I shot what I could afford (a lower-end Beretta auto), but I lusted after a fully worked-over Seminole Custom or high-end O/U. My friend had the worked over Seminole gun, and after the first station (where I really sucked), I mentioned that I had developed a terrible flinch due to my gun's heavy trigger, and that I'd be guaranteed to shoot a ton better if I had a better gun. My friend told me we were switching guns. He proceeded to whip the crap out of me with my own gun. The reason you see the same folks at the top of the sport for years is because they're the best out there. These folks could whip us just as well with a stock gun as they could with their worked over guns. I can't believe that equipment counts for more than 5 - 10% of the difference. If you're good, you'll do well, regardless of the equipment. My own personal opinion is that what we need is a bit more standardization of rules and classes across events and geographic areas (so that you don't end up traveling to a match with unallowed equipment), and let it go. The arms race is a good thing, we're all ending up with better equipment from the factories as a result of it. Very well stated mister, thank you. Patrick |
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Also, who would be the arbiter of what "stock" is? This is the issue. If you look at the rules of the most popular 3-gun matches, the Tactical divisions already require a "factory configuration" rifle. However, because this is virtually impossible to define, pretty much anything goes in reality. I would also argue against the premise that a stock gun is inevitably cheaper than a competition-optimized gun... there are plenty of examples that contradict that assertion. In general, I think we already have more than enough 3-gun divisions. Any new equipment division should only be permitted if it replaces an existing division. If you like a "stock gun" division, which other division do you want to deep six? |
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I would agree that equipment is a very small portion of how well you will do. Heck, I know of a guy in the state that runs a 500 pump, AR-15, and a Glock 34 in Limited and beats the Open guys. I am running what I have in Limited, which is an AR-15A2, CZ-75B (16 round mags), and an 870. It is what I have, and what I can afford. I am there to learn something and have fun while doing it. Heck, they year I just got a mag extension and the shell carriers (I was using the stock 870 before). For my shot pouches I was using M16 mag pouches (now that was slow!!). I also know that as I get better, the better equipment will benefit me. Carrying more ammo just allows me to miss more :) -Corn
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Thank you all for your gratitude for serving my Country, I appreciate it very much ! With that being said I agree with Bassman "My own personal opinion is that what we need is a bit more standardization of rules and classes across events and geographic areas (so that you don't end up traveling to a match with allowed equipment), and let it go. The arms race is a good thing, we're all ending up with better equipment from the factories as a result of it."
This is what I am talking about a entry level stock class and limit it with iron sights, trigger and that is it. Simple ! This is where we all started fundamentally with our shooting, weather it was in the military, civilian or law-enforcement, it was with a stock gun. I know where we take it from there, I own race guns ! A stock class for competition could be 15-19 +1 for pistol with a possible tactical reload for pistol, 10-30 + a tactical reload for rifle, and a 3-5 + tactical reload for shotgun. This is just a example, don't blow it up about different stages there are a million different stage scenario's ! My point is 100+ mags (Surefire-Betamag) and 10+ shotgun tubes, 3k pistols have there place in competition, lets just have a no bones class. I enjoy watching my son's shoot their guns stock guns in competition but they know that they cant ride such a class to the top ,as can anybody else ! |
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