[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Lost Girls of Panama - Kris Kremers & Lisanne Froon - What do you think happened to them? (Page 1 of 6)
Posted: 7/3/2018 10:50:59 PM EDT
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Found this case after getting interested in the Death Valley Germans.
Do you think they got lost, and succumbed to the elements? Killed? Etc? Brief summary.. Two young Dutch girls (aged 22 and 21) were celebrating their graduation in a remote town called Boquete in Panama to learn Spanish, volunteer with the town's children, and hike the famous Pianista trail. As they were planning a brief day trip of a few hours, they wore light clothing and packed only meager supplies. They also brought along a dog from the family with whom they were staying. Suspicion rose when the dog returned to Boquete without the two young ladies, and staff at the Spanish school they were attending, alarmed, called the authorities to intervene. After investigation, it appears that the girls decided to continue past the tourist portion of the trail into the Continental Divide region, which is known to be extremely wild, treacherous terrain. After some time, only bits and pieces of their remains were discovered, including bone pieces and a boot with the foot still in it as well as some articles of clothing. Eventually, a backpack which had supposedly been floating down the Serpent river for weeks was discovered by a local indigenous woman tending her rice paddy. She maintained that the backpack had not been in that spot the previous day. Miraculously, its contents remained intact and in good working condition: the girls' cell phones, 2 bras, and most notably, a sturdy Canon camera that had been purchased especially for the trip (and possibly other small items). The camera revealed over 100 photos of that April 1st hiking trip, which at first appeared normal; two beautiful young women on an exciting excursion abroad. Then, after several photos (possibly 10?), the images began to get strange. According to reports, as only a handful of the photos have been released to the public, ALL of the remaining ~90 photos were taken in what appears to be the complete darkness of night, and contained flash photos of the dense forest/jungle environment in which they were trapped. These photos contained what appeared to be cryptic clues, such as a photo of a makeshift trail signal on a rock next to a river, a formation of toilet paper and a reflective object on a rock, and what some have speculated to be a distant photo of a body (though this cannot be confirmed as the photo is dark/blurry even with forensic enhancement). In addition to the photos, unsuccessful attempts to call 911 and 211 for emergency assistance were found in the girls' cell phone logs on the same day they began the trip. I have come across conflicting information regarding the time of these calls (which is surprising, as this would be significant to the construction of a timeline); some sources say around 4pm, while others say after 9pm. In any case, they ran into trouble that day. What the trouble was, we may never know, as they never found service to place a call. Good reading here: https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-lost-girls-of-panama-the-camera-the-jungle-and-the-bones https://www.thedailybeast.com/the-lost-girls-the-bones-and-the-man-in-the-panama-morgue-1 |
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Quoted: Logical and likely right - but what about the weird photos and the 911 calls? Rapists are not known for allowing phone calls or taking weird photos. |
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Got lost. Tried to hike out. One fell and was injured/killed. The other coninued to try to hike out and eventually also fell and died. If I remember right they turned their phone on for a short times like they were trying to get a signal to call for help while trying to save the battery life. After awhile there were repeated attempts to unlock the phone which would indicate the owner died and the second girl was trying to use it to call for help. Sad story. I remember reading about it and thinking how they should have just followed the river because generally rivers lead to civilization. Except in this case that isn't true and the river just led further into the jungle. It is believed that is what the girls did. I likely would have ended up dead in their situation as well. Haven't heard of anything that would support the whole rape angle. |
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Got lost in a part of the jungle they should not have been in. Something (rather, someone) spooked them hard enough to run. Used the camera flash as to either see their way or scare off what spooked them. Then the found the wrong kinda humans. Raped. Tortured. Murdered. Maybe dismembered. I get the sense of adventure. But there are far, far, far safer trails and villages out there to "make your mark" on then a third world country. |
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I've seen a few females with "Lindsey Travels The World" type YouTube channels and it amazes me just how naive folks are. Particularly attractive young women going it solo.
Recently saw one by a young girl from OZ I think. One of her later videos she was lamenting that she'd been sexually assaulted by a group of five teen boys when she went to a remote area to get some drone footage. Pretty girl in SE Asia, no weapons or escort. Crazy. Heard a saying once: " The handicap of good people is that they cannot comprehend just how truly awful bad people can be." I'd wager these two ran up on some bad actors and paid a dear price for their lack of judgement. |
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So the mystery jungle gang torture rapists repeatedly tried to call authorities over the course of a week and took a bunch photos of makeshift rescue signals, a wound to one of the girls head and a bunch of pictures of the same area from multiple angles like they were trying to record a specific location? Then they placed items of clothing and the backback along with bone fragments so they could be found, instead of say burying all of that in the bushes where it would never be found?
All the rape and murder theories seem to be really reaching for a particular outcome they want. Why they want that outcome... kinda creepy. |
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Here's a quick story from someone I know, and knew at the time. He grew up playing in the woods, often at night, and was quite experienced in the outdoors, for a teenager. So, he sneaks out of his house early one morning (more like late at night) to go for a hike on a nearby mountain. Obviously didn't tell his parents he was going and this is well before cell phones. He gets up on the mountain and realizes a storm is blowing in, so he starts heading down the mountain... and the wind blows a dead branch out of a tree and it hits him on the head.
This dazes and disorients him and he starts feeling sick to his stomach. He realizes he is in real trouble. If he was healthy he could have easily walked home, even in the cold rain without issue. But in his current condition he can't and might well die from hypothermia. Fortunately he knows the area and knows where some rock overhangs are. He makes it to a good one before he gets too wet, starts a small fire with the dry wood he finds under the overhang and waits a bit for the worst of the rain to pass and for his head to clear up. He makes it home okay and his parents didn't even know he was gone. The point? Even if you know what you are doing and are familiar with the terrain, in the wilderness you can get killed really easily in countless ways. Had that branch been a bit heavier or had it hit him a little different he might have never been found as he wasn't on a trail at the time and, at the time, very few people ever went up there anyway. So you take people with little idea of what they are doing and put them in a very dangerous environment and it's no surprise they end up dead. |
| Sounds like they got lost, it turned night, and they started using the camera as a way to document the route and to see in the dark. A camera flash would be much brighter than a cellphone camera LED. Falling or getting into water to deep and fast would have been easy and could have finished them off. |
| The Panamanian jungle is unforgiving. Climb up a hill, fall down the other side. Repeat. We lost one of our party to an electric caterpillar, and had another chased by a Fer De Lance. We were also harassed by a group of monkeys after a soldier threw a rock at them. They followed and bombarded us with sticks, stones, and feces. |
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Bitten by a poisonous snake and they got bogged down over time and slowly lost their shit?
Or they could have been raped and murdered then left to the wildlife to dispose of (Hence the pieces of body parts, an animal may not figure out how to remove a foot from the shoe) |
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This was a bit of a rabbit hole. I'm not sure if everyone noticed but there are 6 parts to this story, not just the 2 the OP linked. If anyone wants links to the rest of the story you can poke around the daily beast website or I will try to post them tomorrow when my eyes aren't as tired.
I think the guide had something to do with it. He had already had contact with them about a tour that was to take place the next day. It's possible that he knew of their plans to hike the Pianista trail and convinced them to continue on further past the continental divide and down to his ranch on the other side. Once at the ranch he could have taken them prisoner and held them until they eventually managed to escape days later with their belongings*. The pictures that seemed to indicate that they are at the end of a journey down the trail could in fact be from them escaping back up the trail. At this point they could have succumbed to the elements or the guide could have caught up to them. *My theory as to how they could escape with their belongings would center around the ranch's sheer distance from civilization. The guide would likely have commitments in town and could be gone for long periods and he may have relied solely on the ranch's remoteness and an assumed ignorance on the part of the girls to know how to get back as a way in which to hold them. One other point, not knowing the Daily Beast's Author's fitness level, I question his stated times it takes to cover the distances involved. I frequently come across hiking guides and signs that give hiking times and they are generally much longer (sometimes comically so) than the time it takes myself or generally anyone in good hiking shape to travel those areas. He may be representing the distances accurately but without seeing a good map of the area I will remain in doubt based upon my own experiences. |
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Quoted:
This was a bit of a rabbit hole. I'm not sure if everyone noticed but there are 6 parts to this story, not just the 2 the OP linked. If anyone wants links to the rest of the story you can poke around the daily beast website or I will try to post them tomorrow when my eyes aren't as tired. I think the guide had something to do with it. He had already had contact with them about a tour that was to take place the next day. It's possible that he knew of their plans to hike the Pianista trail and convinced them to continue on further past the continental divide and down to his ranch on the other side. Once at the ranch he could have taken them prisoner and held them until they eventually managed to escape days later with their belongings*. The pictures that seemed to indicate that they are at the end of a journey down the trail could in fact be from them escaping back up the trail. At this point they could have succumbed to the elements or the guide could have caught up to them. *My theory as to how they could escape with their belongings would center around the ranch's sheer distance from civilization. The guide would likely have commitments in town and could be gone for long periods and he may have relied solely on the ranch's remoteness and an assumed ignorance on the part of the girls to know how to get back as a way in which to hold them. One other point, not knowing the Daily Beast's Author's fitness level, I question his stated times it takes to cover the distances involved. I frequently come across hiking guides and signs that give hiking times and they are generally much longer (sometimes comically so) than the time it takes myself or generally anyone in good hiking shape to travel those areas. He may be representing the distances accurately but without seeing a good map of the area I will remain in doubt based upon my own experiences. A. We didn't hear from them for what, 7 days after the first day and then all the sudden the flurry of 90 photos in 4 hours ( the escape ) B. The time frame when they we're trying to get service/call 911. like you mentioned, that guide had a job and an alibi to maintain . This guide was WELL KNOWN for being quite aggressive towards European woman. Touching them, making rude comments and trying to make advances on them. |
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Quoted:
Makes sense and could explain why : A. We didn't hear from them for what, 7 days after the first day and then all the sudden the flurry of 90 photos in 4 hours ( the escape ) B. The time frame when they we're trying to get service/call 911. like you mentioned, that guide had a job and an alibi to maintain . This guide was WELL KNOWN for being quite aggressive towards European woman. Touching them, making rude comments and trying to make advances on them. Quoted:
Quoted:
This was a bit of a rabbit hole. I'm not sure if everyone noticed but there are 6 parts to this story, not just the 2 the OP linked. If anyone wants links to the rest of the story you can poke around the daily beast website or I will try to post them tomorrow when my eyes aren't as tired. I think the guide had something to do with it. He had already had contact with them about a tour that was to take place the next day. It's possible that he knew of their plans to hike the Pianista trail and convinced them to continue on further past the continental divide and down to his ranch on the other side. Once at the ranch he could have taken them prisoner and held them until they eventually managed to escape days later with their belongings*. The pictures that seemed to indicate that they are at the end of a journey down the trail could in fact be from them escaping back up the trail. At this point they could have succumbed to the elements or the guide could have caught up to them. *My theory as to how they could escape with their belongings would center around the ranch's sheer distance from civilization. The guide would likely have commitments in town and could be gone for long periods and he may have relied solely on the ranch's remoteness and an assumed ignorance on the part of the girls to know how to get back as a way in which to hold them. One other point, not knowing the Daily Beast's Author's fitness level, I question his stated times it takes to cover the distances involved. I frequently come across hiking guides and signs that give hiking times and they are generally much longer (sometimes comically so) than the time it takes myself or generally anyone in good hiking shape to travel those areas. He may be representing the distances accurately but without seeing a good map of the area I will remain in doubt based upon my own experiences. A. We didn't hear from them for what, 7 days after the first day and then all the sudden the flurry of 90 photos in 4 hours ( the escape ) B. The time frame when they we're trying to get service/call 911. like you mentioned, that guide had a job and an alibi to maintain . This guide was WELL KNOWN for being quite aggressive towards European woman. Touching them, making rude comments and trying to make advances on them. If it was sicarios who did the killing, why would they leave the backpack? If the guide did it, it is clear to me that he intended to cover it up by making it appear as if the girls had had an accident. He may have left the backpack as an indicator of their location so that searchers would find the remains. The deleted photo is strange too especially with the file appearing to have been deleted via computer. Why would sicarios do that? The deleted photo could also be a total red herring as well. |
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Quoted:
Yeah, amongst other things, the guide's known inappropriate behavior towards woman (to the extent that some of the hotels had banned him from the premises), the fact that he apparently entered the girls' room before the police, and the statements from the German (iirc) woman who rented a room from the guide that indicated that she feared for her safety all make me suspicious of him. If it was sicarios who did the killing, why would they leave the backpack? If the guide did it, it is clear to me that he intended to cover it up by making it appear as if the girls had had an accident. He may have left the backpack as an indicator of their location so that searchers would find the remains. The deleted photo is strange too especially with the file appearing to have been deleted via computer. Why would sicarios do that? The deleted photo could also be a total red herring as well. Maybe they snapped a photo of him when they ran into him on the trial? Just guessing, but given the evidence and timeline, I have the hunch of foul play over simply getting lost in the jungle and succumbing. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - The Lost Girls of Panama - Kris Kremers & Lisanne Froon - What do you think happened to them? (Page 1 of 6)
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