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Link Posted: 5/23/2019 11:04:45 AM EDT
[#1]
I had both during my time in. A1 is better length of pull. A2 sights are easy to adjust. At the range that is a good thing. In combat maybe not so much.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 11:06:17 AM EDT
[#2]
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I liked it.
But I liked the M60 better...
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Really? What did you like about it? The spare barrel with attached bipod for extra weight or wiring parts on,etc.? Always seemed like a poor design for a (somewhat) modern MG.

The 60's we were issued in the 80's were absolutely hated by every gunner I knew.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 11:34:37 AM EDT
[#3]
I first qualified on the A1 in 82.

I didn't qual on the A2 until 86. At the time I really thought the A2 was a big improvement. It felt better, the sights were great and I always shot better with it than the A1.

But I was an Airwinger so I only shot once a year and never had to carry a rifle everywhere. It's a great range rifle and I love shooting my A2 clone. But for a combat weapon I think we've probably hit the pinnacle of the design with the M4.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 11:40:14 AM EDT
[#4]
I was issued an A2/A4/M4 during my time. I had no complaints about the A2, other than it was a bitch to hump compared to a M4.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 12:16:33 PM EDT
[#5]
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If you read Coldblue's posts on why he made the decisions he did on the A2, he explains that the only options at the time were an off the shelf 3 round burst w/semi or semi only. The Army wanted to shit can full auto all together
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Mine was made by FN, solid rifle, three round burst was dumb.
If you read Coldblue's posts on why he made the decisions he did on the A2, he explains that the only options at the time were an off the shelf 3 round burst w/semi or semi only. The Army wanted to shit can full auto all together
This issue has a very simple solution:

A2 upper/A1 lower

I'm aware of the beefing up of the A2 lower in high stress areas, but I prefer the A1 LOP and would rather have FA than 3 Burst.  I would swap for the A2 grip though, I'm one of the rare ones here who actually prefers it.  Basically a Chair Force mutt(see the A2 section, holy shit the AF doesn't throw anything away).

I'm not .mil but have and shoot both regularly
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 12:46:42 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:

Really? What did you like about it? The spare barrel with attached bipod for extra weight or wiring parts on,etc.? Always seemed like a poor design for a (somewhat) modern MG.

The 60's we were issued in the 80's were absolutely hated by every gunner I knew.
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Yes, there was extra weight to carry around & it was a branch magnet - but then again we could just set up in a support position, wait, then destroy shit after the line squads had to maneuver to the target.

The only thing we wired on was the trigger assembly - everything else was fine.
And only a cherry would put it together backwards.

It was a lot better than the SAW (& still not as heavy as the M240).
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 12:54:27 PM EDT
[#7]
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I carried one while in. Hated the stupid three round burst function. Semi auto is generally what you want to be using, but in that rare instance where full auto becomes necessary, you don't want to be resetting the trigger every three rounds.
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Mine went FA when a pin walked out during MOUT training.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 1:40:05 PM EDT
[#8]
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Wat?
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If you want a gun to shoot irons, the A2 is the way to go.  I wasn't crazy about the gooseneck mounts when the M68's got fielded Army wide, or mounting the ACOG to the carrying handle.  LOP has never been an issue for me, even with an IBA or IOTV.  The guys bitching about its 3-round burst are hilarious, everything had 3-round burst until a couple years ago.
Wat?
They only started replacing FCGs with FA and overstamping M4s during the last couple years.  Unless you had a M16A1, A3, or legit M4A1 prior to the conversion you've been like the other 99% of the Armed Forces that exist outside of USASOC, with a 3 round burst FCG.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 1:44:17 PM EDT
[#9]
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That shit might fly today, but the military of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's wasn't about to give an option to anyone, its all about uniformity.
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https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/365646/wert_jpg-955168.JPG

I can't get my head around why the USMC loves such a long length of pull. I am 5'11" and A2 stocks and the Benelli M4 C-stock are a bit long for me not wearing armor. I like my SP1 length a lot better.

I always wondered why they didn't go with a shorter LOP and offer a spacer kit for anyone who wants it longer. I believe that's what Canada did with the C7/C7A1 until they just put a collapsible stock on every rifle (the C7A2.)
That shit might fly today, but the military of the 80's, 90's, and 2000's wasn't about to give an option to anyone, its all about uniformity.
I guess that's a very fair (or in this case unfair ) answer.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 2:14:26 PM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:
They only started replacing FCGs with FA and overstamping M4s during the last couple years.  Unless you had a M16A1, A3, or legit M4A1 prior to the conversion you've been like the other 99% of the Armed Forces that exist outside of USASOC, with a 3 round burst FCG.
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If you want a gun to shoot irons, the A2 is the way to go.  I wasn't crazy about the gooseneck mounts when the M68's got fielded Army wide, or mounting the ACOG to the carrying handle.  LOP has never been an issue for me, even with an IBA or IOTV.  The guys bitching about its 3-round burst are hilarious, everything had 3-round burst until a couple years ago.
Wat?
They only started replacing FCGs with FA and overstamping M4s during the last couple years.  Unless you had a M16A1, A3, or legit M4A1 prior to the conversion you've been like the other 99% of the Armed Forces that exist outside of USASOC, with a 3 round burst FCG.
 OK, Now I'm tracking. I was issued an A1 in the early days of my career so that's what had me confused. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 4:17:36 PM EDT
[#11]
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3 round burst is dumb. An optic on top of the carry handle was odd and too high. Never had an A4, I feel it would have been much better for optic mounting. The M4A1 is my favorite. Full auto if needed, ACOG, adj. stock. Last unit we had MagPul CTR and K2 grips with the Knights RIS Kit.
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At the time the A2 was designed, the idea of issuing optics to every soldier wasn't on the radar.  Most of the enhancements that are now standard on rifles weren't developed until after the A2 was issued AND the commander of the US Army Marksmanship Unit decided that the idea that his soldiers were still shooting M14's while the issue service rifle was an M16 was a waste of Army resources and directed that they develop the modifications to make the M16A2 a viable competition rifle and start using it in competition.  There was some parallel development by civilian competitors as far as free-floating the barrel, but the Army's switch is what started larger scale research.  Even the M4's of the time still had the carry handle, the M1913 Picatinny rail wasn't produced until the early '90's, long after the M16A2 had been fielded (I remember shooting one at Fort McClellan, AL in 1989).
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 4:18:02 PM EDT
[#12]
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S/N 7014693

No idea how I still remember that.
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A1 S/N 1945864. This was 1988
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 4:19:17 PM EDT
[#13]
At the time it wasn't a bad rifle at all, I carried one from 91-98 and had no issues with mine other than some bad mags
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 5:21:05 PM EDT
[#14]
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I was USMS Infantry when we transitioned from A1 to A2.  I loved the A2 still do.
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The Marshal Service has an Infantry section as well as doing WitSec and prisoner transport.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 5:31:35 PM EDT
[#15]
I'd take an A1 over an A2 given a choice.  Also would take an M4 over an A2.

It's not a bad rifle, and the only "retro" AR I own is an A2 just for nostalgia reasons.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 8:30:12 PM EDT
[#16]
They are great until you have to hump them through the mountains or practice clearing rooms or get in and out of vehicles with them with body armor on.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 8:33:09 PM EDT
[#17]
Learned to shoot one in college.  Carry one now in my patrol car trunk.  The quad rail makes it heavier than it needs to be just to mount a light.
Link Posted: 5/23/2019 11:26:44 PM EDT
[#18]


The A4 was an even dumber idea:

Take all of the "flaws" from the A2 minus the rear sights (however you feel about them) : the overall length, the heavier weight and simply add more stuff to it.  It will go down as the shortest lived version of the M-16.  The Corps will eventually replace all A4's with M-4s or even ALL M-27s  (however you feel about them) and standardize across the service.  It only makes sense.

I've always liked the Masada ACR as a concept with its modular receiver and the short stroke gas system from its inception rather than as a retrofit...but the M-4 will be here to stay and only makes economical sense.
Link Posted: 5/24/2019 8:11:20 AM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 5/24/2019 9:13:46 AM EDT
[#20]
I got a brand new in the box M16A2 when I went to MCRD. They said we were the 1st series in boot camp to get them. I had bought my 1st AR15 in 82 or 83. Had the round hand guards, but a tear drop forward assist, and old style rear sight. That made the M16A2 even more special with the round forward assist and the easy adjust rear sight. i loved mine and thought a 3 rifle stack was cool beyond belief.
Link Posted: 5/24/2019 10:16:41 AM EDT
[#21]
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Look, I was there; there were better weapons on the world market, in a lot of respects besides the ergonomics. I owned a Valmet M76 in 5.56mm that was a damn tack driver out past what I could do with my issue Colt M16A2. It had a shorter barrel, built-in night sights, and was impossible to jam. It was also a folding stock, and a hell of a lot more compact. So, yeah... There actually were better weapons available, although I still prefer the human engineering on the M16 series.

The handwriting was on the wall as early as the Son Tay Raid--The issue M16 was too big, too bulky, and there were superior sights available. Even the Israelis and Finns were smart enough to put luminous night sights on their standard-issue weapon, something that apparently was a bridge too far for the A2 program.

The A2 looked really good to me, as a Sergeant helping run the company arms room. It was new, not worn out, and it sure seemed cool. When we got our first ones there around '88, it was the latest, greatest thing--But, looking back at it, from the vantage point of today, after spending 25 years on active duty? It was emphatically not what it should have been.

The major things wrong with the A2 design was that it failed to take into account a lot of the actual lessons of Vietnam, namely that even the M16A1 was too damn big, especially for what the cartridge offered. As well, there were a bunch of things that were added that were entirely useless, like that sight they took from the Colt LMG. The premise of that thing is flatly insane--Probably 90% of your shots in combat are taken at fleeting glimpses of the enemy at random ranges out to around 300-400m max, and they're giving us an insanely adjustable sight that's only really superior to the A1 sights past those ranges? Oh, and they didn't bother to give us any sort of night sight, when they had the opportunity? Don't even get me started on all the other things that a real "Product Improvement Program" should have meant, like better corrosion-proofing and coatings. Or, as another example that the Canadians were putting on their version of the M16, cold hammer-forged barrels with superior accuracy and life.

Let's face the facts of the matter: The A2 program was tasked with producing a better combat rifle. What it actually provided the troops was a superior range toy that didn't address many of the problems of the A1 at all effectively. And, when a better combat rifle came along, by accident, the A2 was dropped like a hot potato--That's how "right" the A2 program got it. The A2 actually had one of the shortest service lives as a front line combat weapon in American history, when you get down to it--It was finally fielded in mass numbers by the late '80s, and was undergoing mass replacement in the infantry formations with the M4 by about '95. That tell you anything?

The M4 itself is another travesty of poor program management; it was originally intended as a handier, more easily-carried weapon for self-defense by support troops. Because of that, they really never did thorough ballistic testing to see if it maintained lethality to the full range that the A2 did with the standard ammunition. Turns out, it did not--And, we didn't really discover that until the 2000s, when we finally did something about it. In the middle of a freakin' war. What year was Somalia, when that first appeared in combat situations, and what year did we get M855A1 into mass issue, again...?

There were apocryphal reports of lethality issues with the M4 and some of the similar weapons that the Rangers and Delta were using in Somalia. Nobody in the procurement system thought to do anything effective about it until reports started coming back in from Afghanistan, over ten years later, and the military started getting bad  press about it. Thus, the M855A1, which itself has some issues.

Then, there's the pathway by which the M4 became our standard individual weapon for front-line combat troops. If you recall, the thing was supposed to be for support troops like artillery and engineers, as well as drivers and such-like in infantry units. The original plan was, A2 for line infantry, M4 for support troops.

Only thing is, that's not how it worked out. Once the M4 started coming into the line units, and people got their hands on it, all of a sudden we're diverting them from the support bubbas over to the front-line combat troops.

Huh. Funny, that. Kinda makes you wonder about the whole "The A2 is the ultimate expression of the M16 as a combat weapon..." idea, doesn't it?

To me, looking back, it appears as though the A2 program was a rathole we never should have gone down--And, if you go back and look at the available information, that should have been clear. Just like the idea of an intermediate-caliber assault rifle should have been clear to the guys who adopted the M14...

There is copious literature available in DTIC from Army Research Laboratories, discussing the shortcomings of the M16A1 that were identified in Vietnam--With the recommendations that it be replaced with something shorter and handier.

For more handwriting on the wall, you can look where they tested and prototyped red-dot sights shortly after Vietnam. Colonel Bull Simon was the guy who put those on his men's carbines for the Son Tay Raid, where they proved themselves under fire. Post-Son Tay Raid reports recommended that such sights be investigated for general issue and use.

Took Big Army until the 2000s to pay attention, and realize the superiority of that sighting system over iron sights, especially under combat conditions where fussy little adjustable iron sights aren't really of use until you're in a situation where you really ought to be engaging with either your indirect fire, or your damn snipers in the first place.

No, to be honest, I'm going to stick to my position that the A2 and M4 should never have happened in the first place, and they should have paid attention to the actual lessons of Vietnam, developing something that would have looked a lot more like the M27 than anything else. Hell, Colt was even offering pistons back in the 1980s and 1990s, if we'd have wanted them...

TL;DR--The M16A2 was a mistake we shouldn't have made, and the M4 just compounded the error. Marines finally got the individual weapon right with the M27, in terms of size/barrel length. Piston, maybe not so much. Cost? Sure as hell not...
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This is why I said you should read Coldblue's posts on arfcom. All the below was collected from arfcom posts from coldblue or other knowledgeable NCOs or field grade officers involved in procurement and testing, or history.  With the exception of the Son Tay stuff, which came from some interviews I read off of arfcom.

- You wrote they should have built an M16A1 replacement with a mid length gas system in 1982. But that is still ten years before it was invented, which was for the 16" barreled SR-25K. And it was known since Vietnam that carbine gas system was sufficient for 11.5-16" barrels. Not optimal but not terrible either.

- You're claiming the M4 was designed for support troops. It wasn't. The Marines designed the XM4 for Force Recon to use for CQB. The M4 was not an evolution of the M1/2/3 Carbine, it was actually a replacement of the M3A SMG, the Grease Gun, which the USMC Force Recon was still stuck with for CQB (this was before they got MP5s). They had a very limited number of unofficial CAR-15, they wanted an official carbine. This was from Coldblue, David Lutz, whose shop made it, whose office mate was project manager of it, Jack Muth.

- The original XM4 was going to have a 11.5" barrel but they decided they needed a bayonet and attach a grenade launcher they sent it to Colt to fix that, so why it's 14.5. Extra 1.5" to get 16" doesnt gain much in velocity, that number is only significant because of NFA law regarding shortest rifle barrel length without being an SBR.

- The Marine Corps ran out of funding and essentially handed off XM4 to Army and SOCOM, who initially got them around 94-95. Note, nobody in the Army hated any of the A2 changes, like sight, grip, brass deflector, all carried over when they could have instead went with Colt 723 upper receiver, which was A1 styled in terms of sights, and already used by many in JSOC. They didn't change anything because there was nothing wrong with the sights and other A2 carryovers.

- After SOCOM, it wasn't Big Army support personnel who got them but the light infantry of the XVIII Airborne Corps, plus tankers who otherwise were still carrying M3 SMG.

- a large focus of the mid 90s was MOUT training, so after SOCOM and 82nd, 101st, and 10th Mountain got them, rest of Big Army infantry wanted them too, specifically light infantry like 25th ID and others, while other active divisions, like the 3rd ID mech infantry, continued using M16A2/4s into 2003-2005. Support units, to this day, still don't have them in most units, they have M16.

- You claim the A2 is no longer issued, that is incorrect. Its still issued in numerous active units, in support roles, or they have A4 (with KAC RAS rail and flat top receiver), as well as Reserve and Nat'l Guard. Its still in service, just not with infantry. The M16A1 became the standard issue service rifle of the US Army in 1969, and it lasted until the mid 80s before the A2 replaced it, so 17 yeard. The M16A2 lasted from then and is still the standard service rifle outside of combat arms, so 34 years. A2 has been issued longer...

- 4-6 position adjustable buffer tubes and stocks didn't exist in early 80s. Original collapsible CAR or M4 stocks, the N1, ran 2 position, totally collapsed or fully open, to nearly same length of pull as M16A2. Didn't change to current until around 2003. More time machine hindsight.

- The adjustable rear sights on the A2 and M4 were not for competition, it was to allow fireteam or squad level suppressive fires with rifles, done by fire commands, given by Marine officers and NCOs. Coldblue noted in Vietnam that the only organic weapons with adjustable iron sights capable to conduct accurate long range area fire was the M60 and he would have liked to have used rifles, which most carried, to do it too. Otherwise they're guessing crazy holdovers to shoot the treeline 550 meters away, instead of just quickly dialing in and aiming dead on.

- You were complaining about lack of iron night sights, but they existed in inventory since the 70s, the LLLSS. Coldblue wrote about them, as did Weaoons Man: https://www.ar15.com/forums/ar-15/Re_Post__Low_Light_Level_Sight_System/123-612410/

- You mention Son Tay raiders and the XM117/CAR-15, as if they specifically chose that for the mission over the M16A1 but it was because the XM117 were already in SF inventory for half a decade or more and were already pretty much the standard issued long gun for SF in Vietnam. The sight they used Arson Occulated Eye Gunsight (OEG) were chosen from a gun magazine ad on a lark because the assaulters, despite being select veteran SF NCOs, had abysmal night time accuracy. The OEG they used had significant mounting problems temporarily resolved with lots of tape which was fine for one nighttime operation, especially as it increased close range hit percentages by 75%. However, it was a CQB scope, it could not be seen through, was was useless for longer ranges. Definitely not useful for a service rifle.

- I've never heard legit complaints by Big Army or Marine Corps infantry in Vietnam about barrel or stock length of the M16A1. What Army study were you referring to? I'd love to read it.
Link Posted: 5/24/2019 1:03:52 PM EDT
[#22]
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So readers have spent a lot f time expressing their opinions here, and that's a good thing.
But some need to go back and read the why and where for of the A2 changes, PARTICULARLY the ones I made to the trigger mechanism and butttstock.
I went out of my way, and in fact snookered some in the "system," by making these easily reversible at the battalion/2nd echelon level with parts that were readily available in the supply system.
So I ask you nay-sayers, how many commands were so unhappy with the stock length and 3RBC, that they replaced them with A1 buttstocks and standard M16A1 full auto trigger sets...?
Hello: "that reverse-ability was no accident."
Then go back to 1983 when the A2 was standardized, and count the decades it took for a 14.5" carbine to replace it...and when the Army did, it had the f'ing 3RBC...

And then there were these that Bean Counters would not roll with...https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/19411/early_scope_concept-956230.jpg
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/19411/early_removable_handle-956231.jpg
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It is really neat having you post in these threads.

I would like to clarify that my comments about the buttstock was more about the small arms that were adopted later (the A4 and the M1014) after body armor and fighting in built up areas became more common.

You mentioned you liked the way Canada ran their sister rifle program. Do you feel any of the changes made for C7 should have been made standard on the M16A2 or were they unnecessary? I don't remember all of the specific changes off the top of my head but they included a thicker chrome lining in the barrel to resist cracking in cold weather among other things.

I had also heard Canada wanted to use a continuous heavy profile barrel on the C7 but Colt stopped them. I don't know if that is true or why Colt would do that.
Link Posted: 5/24/2019 1:15:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Loved it.
Link Posted: 5/24/2019 5:07:43 PM EDT
[#24]

From the Rock Island Arsenal Muesum


Gen 1 Forward Assist.
Link Posted: 5/25/2019 7:48:49 AM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
So readers have spent a lot f time expressing their opinions here, and that's a good thing.
But some need to go back and read the why and where for of the A2 changes, PARTICULARLY the ones I made to the trigger mechanism and butttstock.
I went out of my way, and in fact snookered some in the "system," by making these easily reversible at the battalion/2nd echelon level with parts that were readily available in the supply system.
So I ask you nay-sayers, how many commands were so unhappy with the stock length and 3RBC, that they replaced them with A1 buttstocks and standard M16A1 full auto trigger sets...?
Hello: "that reverse-ability was no accident."
Then go back to 1983 when the A2 was standardized, and count the decades it took for a 14.5" carbine to replace it...and when the Army did, it had the f'ing 3RBC...

And then there were these that Bean Counters would not roll with...https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/19411/early_scope_concept-956230.jpg
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/19411/early_removable_handle-956231.jpg
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The man himself speaks.  Thanks for your time.  I have a question you have probably been asked before I just haven't read your answer:

Question:  during A2 development was there any thought given to changing barrel length and gas system length?  Reason I ask is because I have a XM16E1 copy, A2 copy, A4 copy, etc but my absolute favorite is a mid length A2 in rifle configuration(fixed stock).  Were you unable to change these specs or was that just not considered for other reasons?

@coldblue
Link Posted: 5/25/2019 8:25:32 AM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 5/25/2019 8:43:41 AM EDT
[#27]
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Thank you for your question. Part of what was happening back then was Belgium winning the NATO 5.56 round competition with their SS109 penetrating helmets at 1,200 yards. That drove the 1:7 twist and also helped evolve the fully adjustable A2 rear sight. But barrel length shortening was never considered, if for no other reason than the Marine Corps was a "rifle" carrying Service, and believed that external ballistic performance on a world wide scale needed as much velocity and accuracy as possible. Remember that Marines had fought in every clime and place with the long "rifle length" M1's in WWII, and that is who our decision generals were at the time in the early 80's. The gas tube length was also ignored (maybe because we never though of it) because we wanted as many interchangeable parts as possible with the M16A1. And the engineering data base for the standard gas tube was extensive. You see, through this whole process I was not sure the Army would buy in, so the changes had to be economical as well as enhancing or at least "equal to."
Facilitating eventual Army adoption was a very important accomplishment, however, that necessitated me incorporating their Human Engineering Lab (HEL) recommendation for an increased stock length of a fill one-inch! Luckily, I was able to limit that to 5/8's along with their Commands signing-on for Army adoption, as did Aberdeen Proving Ground (engineering and testing), the Infantry School at Fort Benning, Rock Island Arsenal (for logistics), etc. The 5/8's limitation was so all the standard M12 rifle racks could be used for the A2. Unfortunately this did not fit in many Navy shipboard racks that had been made "tight" for the M16A1.
The mid-length thing started when I was at Knights in Vero Beach. We needed to do that for our 7.62 SR25 based Battle Rifle with 16" barrel. Then sort of without express permission, a few of us cobbled some in 5.56...and the rest is history. And to be fair, Mark Westrum of Armalite developed a slightly different length mid length concurrently, but for different reasons.
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The man himself speaks.  Thanks for your time.  I have a question you have probably been asked before I just haven't read your answer:

Question:  during A2 development was there any thought given to changing barrel length and gas system length?  Reason I ask is because I have a XM16E1 copy, A2 copy, A4 copy, etc but my absolute favorite is a mid length A2 in rifle configuration(fixed stock).  Were you unable to change these specs or was that just not considered for other reasons?

@coldblue
Thank you for your question. Part of what was happening back then was Belgium winning the NATO 5.56 round competition with their SS109 penetrating helmets at 1,200 yards. That drove the 1:7 twist and also helped evolve the fully adjustable A2 rear sight. But barrel length shortening was never considered, if for no other reason than the Marine Corps was a "rifle" carrying Service, and believed that external ballistic performance on a world wide scale needed as much velocity and accuracy as possible. Remember that Marines had fought in every clime and place with the long "rifle length" M1's in WWII, and that is who our decision generals were at the time in the early 80's. The gas tube length was also ignored (maybe because we never though of it) because we wanted as many interchangeable parts as possible with the M16A1. And the engineering data base for the standard gas tube was extensive. You see, through this whole process I was not sure the Army would buy in, so the changes had to be economical as well as enhancing or at least "equal to."
Facilitating eventual Army adoption was a very important accomplishment, however, that necessitated me incorporating their Human Engineering Lab (HEL) recommendation for an increased stock length of a fill one-inch! Luckily, I was able to limit that to 5/8's along with their Commands signing-on for Army adoption, as did Aberdeen Proving Ground (engineering and testing), the Infantry School at Fort Benning, Rock Island Arsenal (for logistics), etc. The 5/8's limitation was so all the standard M12 rifle racks could be used for the A2. Unfortunately this did not fit in many Navy shipboard racks that had been made "tight" for the M16A1.
The mid-length thing started when I was at Knights in Vero Beach. We needed to do that for our 7.62 SR25 based Battle Rifle with 16" barrel. Then sort of without express permission, a few of us cobbled some in 5.56...and the rest is history. And to be fair, Mark Westrum of Armalite developed a slightly different length mid length concurrently, but for different reasons.
@coldblue

Thanks again for your time and knowledge, and despite what the Hi Drag/Low Speed cheeto operators say I am very happy with your rifle mods. I shoot a Compass Lake A2 in NM competition.

ETA:

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