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Quoted: Shhhhhh, you're chasing my pigeons away LOLQuoted: I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is. I would want that in writing, though. I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun |
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Quoted: Who are you the thread police?Quoted: Quoted: Drama llama?I thought the NFA was clear on these definitions. I guess we'll have to see what drama llama is cooking up with this build-up here, instead of having proof and posting the story all at once. I didn't post the proof because the Tech branch letter is not here yet. But it's coming smart ass I'm tracking, drama llama, you could have just waited until it was there.  Get a life |
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Shhhhhh, you're chasing my pigeons away LOL
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I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is. I would want that in writing, though. I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun sorry about that |
| this site seems to disagree with you. However, I am interested in your interpretation. I would hide your dogs, just in case. |
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Quoted: doesn't matter, the overall has to be 26 inchesQuoted: Quoted: Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?! interesting..... There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. So the distance between the breach end of the barrel and the rear-most part of the pistol grip is 12"? |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Are you sure?Quoted: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf Barrel length is determined by measuring from the breech face to muzzle for all but revolvers which are measured from cylinder gap to muzzle. Anything with a bore diameter over "one half inch" defined in rifles by land to land diameter (not groove), is a DD unless exempted by the Director (and there is none now). Therefore, all shotguns over 43 gauge in diameter are blanket exempted by the Director who HAS in past, revoked the sporting clause exemption on certain shotguns. And shotguns must have a barrel length over 18", otherwise it is a short barreled shotgun (6) The term "short-barreled shotgun" means a shotgun having one or more barrels less than eighteen inches in length and any weapon made from a shotgun (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches. Good luck. Going to be hard to get by the barrel length restriction It could be a .410 to skirt the DD classification, ya know... 12 ga |
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wrong, nothing to do with it, the judge is a pistol, it has a rifled barrel
i have heard that the pistol grip has to be integral to the receiver (all one piece) thus, it is no different from say, the *forgive me father* Judge revolver ETA - for it to be considered a smoothbore handgun vs. an sbs oh snap, totally overlooked that factor. OP's answer ^ |
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Quoted: Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it.  read the specs in the first post, the overall length has to be at least 26 " |
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Quoted: BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip? I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it? Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad. I was going to tell you the key to this but you called me a drama llama so I think I won't LOL |
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BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip? I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it? Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad. 870 with low angle pistol grip: 
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doesn't matter, the overall has to be 26 inches
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Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?! interesting..... There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. So the distance between the breach end of the barrel and the rear-most part of the pistol grip is 12"? That's what I'm saying: 14 1/2" barrel + 11 1/2" receiver/pistol grip = 26" overall length, correct? I'd actually be very interested in this since I like the idea of a shorter barrel even if it means being limited to a pistol grip. 
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Does this mean I can get a KAC masterkey?! interesting..... There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe)
It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I fail didn't read that part. |
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BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip? I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it? Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad. 870 with low angle pistol grip: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg How long is the barrel on that? From what jrzy is saying, it could be 14 1/2". |
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Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it. read the specs in the first post, the overall length has to be at least 26 " Just measured a Mossberg 500 Pistol grip shotgun... 26 inches would make it so I could cut a whole 1 inch off the barrel!!!!!!!  
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Quoted: failQuoted: Quoted: Yeah I think SURBU would have stopped making all those cool short shotguns out of pistol grip pumps and paying the $5 to do it also... ( That is, if what you are saying is true, but I doubt it. read the specs in the first post, the overall length has to be at least 26 " Just measured a Mossberg 500 Pistol grip shotgun... 26 inches would make it so I could cut a whole 1 inch off the barrel!!!!!!! |
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BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip? I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it? Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad. 870 with low angle pistol grip: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg How long is the barrel on that? From what jrzy is saying, it could be 14 1/2". He may be right, but I don't think so. Three inches of the end will not change the functionality of it in any way and I would have another legal worry as the ATF are masters at going full retard with the legal jargon. |
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Quoted: Quoted: BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip? I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it? Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad. 870 with low angle pistol grip: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg Ok, I thought he said "standard" pistol grip. I didn't think the duckbill would fit that description. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip? I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it? Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad. 870 with low angle pistol grip: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg Ok, I thought he said "standard" pistol grip. I didn't think the duckbill would fit that description. "any pistol grip" |
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BTW, for mathematical sake, how long is an 870 receiver? How long is the pistol grip? I don't think the receiver of an 870+pistol grip = 12" or more. Does it? Meaning a 14.25" barrel might still be an issue for OAL. Certainly a 12" barrel would be bad. 870 with low angle pistol grip: http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g110/firestormus/IMG_0447.jpg Ok, I thought he said "standard" pistol grip. I didn't think the duckbill would fit that description. "any pistol grip" In that case.... With that pistol grip, I could have bought it with 3" less barrel. With a normal pistol grip, I'd be lucky to be able to get 1" less. (This on an 870) Not worth worrying about the legal bullshit IMO |
27 CFR 479.11:Well its not a pistol(does not fire a "bullet" as per their definition as recorded in the CRF), revolver, or shotgun. I could be an AOW depending on the interpretation of " capable of being concealed on the person." One could assume that is where the 14" barrel or the 26" LOA comes into play although I can find no definition or rule on that. |
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I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening Sounds cool as hell....won't be legal on my side of the delaware ill bet tho. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: I got out, you can tooQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening Sounds cool as hell....won't be legal on my side of the delaware ill bet tho. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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I got out, you can too
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I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? A bet against Kieth_J with regards to knowledge? Aw shit, I'm gettin popcorn for this I am an 07 FFL/SOT who has spent 2 days on the phone and many faxes between us and the Tech branch of the ATF This is not speculation or fantasy, it's real and happening Sounds cool as hell....won't be legal on my side of the delaware ill bet tho. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Oh I plan to.......but I'm stuck for a couple more years, then I'm gone. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Quoted: Quoted: Shhhhhh, you're chasing my pigeons away LOLQuoted: I think I know where you're going with this. According to the ATF, you can have a barrel shorter than 16" on a Browning 1919A4 as long as the OAL is greater than 26" because the 1919 is just a firearm, not a rifle. The ATF classifies a pistol grip only shotgun as just a firearm also (which is why you have to be 21 or over to buy one from a dealer). So, as long as the OAL is greater than 26", it shouldn't matter what the barrel length is. I would want that in writing, though. I was going to wait but I have seen a letter saying just that in reference to a shotgun Am I missing something? I don't see any reference to 26" OAL in the definition of a firearm that is not in conjunction with rifle or shotgun. Firearm. (a) A shotgun having a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (b) a weapon made from a shotgun if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 18 inches in length; (c) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (d) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length; (e) any other weapon, as defined in this subpart; (f) a machinegun; (g) a muffler or a silencer for any firearm whether or not such firearm is included within this definition; and (h) a destructive device. The term shall not include an antique firearm or any device (other than a machine gun or destructive device) which, although designed as a weapon, the Director finds by reason of the date of its manufacture, value, design, and other characteristics is primarily a collector’s item and is not likely to be used as a weapon. For purposes of this definition, the length of the barrel having an integral chamber(s) on a shotgun or rifle shall be determined by measuring the distance between the muzzle and the face of the bolt, breech, or breech block when closed and when the shotgun or rifle is cocked. The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore. |
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this site seems to disagree with you. However, I am interested in your interpretation. I would hide your dogs, just in case. From the above ATF link Often mistakenly called a “sawed off shotgun.” In this instance overall length is determining factor. However, if the overall length is 26 inches or more and barrel less than 18 inches, this weapon would still be classified as a firearm under the Act.
just quoting the ATF here |