Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
BCM
User Panel

Site Notices
Page / 8
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 9:00:36 AM EDT
[#1]
Cuomo ought to ban limos.

Very sad in all reality.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 9:03:01 AM EDT
[#2]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Nailed it!

F450/550 brakes would be suited to stop that weight.
Those have plenty of rotor and pad to stop alot of weight.
I don't miss having to do backing plates on those... I'd watch jackasses grab the heaviest sledge hammer they owned to pound the piss out of the rear wheels or grab the oxy-acetylene torch to heat the steel wheels up (because rust)
I own the dually buddy impact gun and essentially a gear puller that goes in the vent hole of the wheel.
Zip the hex head with the impact, go 180° from it hit it with the impact BANG that bitch let's go, wheel comes right off in a cloud of rust... 19.5 Alcoas were the worst! I broke my first dually buddy pulling 19.5 Alcoas from a F450 king ranch.

Then they'd grab a floor jack and 2x4s after they remove the hub nut and outer wheel bearing and struggle balancing while pulling it off the truck.
Me, I'd just bear hug the rotor and take the whole assembly off with the spindle at chest height. Need a good lift, Rotary makes the best truck lifts
Fuck those Mickey Mouse Mohawk lifts teeter totters of doom! If I had it my way those fucking things would be scrapped.
Yup. Used to sell a ton of backing plates for super duties for state inspection.
Get 3 years tops out of them. Especially! Especially if it were a 350-550 dump truck with a plow and sander/salt spreader in the bed.
I used to take the PM-13-A and coat them, and 6.0 and 6.4 and 7.3 oil pans. I did so many oil pans due to rust... quicklane kids they'd get a plow truck...
Do an oil change on it and come over half covered in oil eyes as big as a full moon, holding the drain plug attached to about a 4 inch patch of rotten oil pan and they say... dude... what do I do?! Am I going to get in trouble?! They're a waiter too
That's when I'd smile and say... welp. Waiters gon wait now ain't they?
MAC sold the 2.5-10mm 1/4 inch drive turbo sockets in .25 mm increments. Best investment made. Used to pound those sockets on damn near non existent or rust bloomed oil pan bolts, hope and pray the head of the bolt doesn't snap off...

Boomer techs would shit when they'd see me do 7.3 oil pans.
HHNNNGGGGG! You gotta pull the motor and turn it upside down! That silicone won't seal unless the engine is upside down on a stand!

Fuck you, no, you dont. Watch. The future is now old man. SAME attitude for 6.0s when I'd do head gaskets on them, HNNGGG Ford says you can't mill the heads! And why are you pulling the cab punk! Just use the engine crane and bracket! No. Because I'm putting studs in. HNNGGG That's not a Ford approved repair! Yeah. Well. If they don't want to pay for head gaskets again, the pen being mightier than the sword... fuck em. They won't know it has studs. Dude needs this truck for a living. I don't work on em pops. I fix em.

Then the 6.4s came out... a truck. They designed to pull the cab on. it was faster to do high pressure fuel pumps and turbos in cab than it was hassling with pulling the cab on those. Used to smoke warranty time by whole hours but I'd run the clock over by 1.5 2 hours while I worked on something else that way when the bean counters do their time studies they would see a time deficit. But noooo.... guys in California Nevada Arizona who don't see real weather or know what rust even is, have to smoke the SLTS labor OP times by 2 3 4 5 hours that way Ford can lower their labor OP times and piss everyone in the rust belt off.
Techs for getting their throats cut because the book doesn't see rust and corrosion... customers, because a tech tried to beat the clock and did shoddy work.
Writers and managers for dealing with angry customers and techs. If you're a virgin, go work at a Ford dealer, flat rate, as a tech. You will get all the fuckin in the world. Long hard and continuously. Your booty hole will be bagged out like a slinky. Looking like an angry babboon with a sore ass from being in the building for 40-50 hours and only making 25-32 hours per week doing it by the book.

7.3 oil pans... I'll take that job at 2pm and have it done and ready to drive tomorrow morning taking my sweet time. They'd scoff and say it'll be back or never leave due to a leak and to do it their way. "Trust me kid, it's gonna leak! But you go ahead and do it your way smart ass!"
I'd ask if they were betting men and I'd put my entire paycheck against theirs a couple took me up on it. Come pay day I'd say just give me a 20 and we're even. Don't ever tell me it can't be done. I'll go out of my way and prove you wrong.

Drain the oil, jackhammer the oil filter off because those pricks always seized on and I always broke strap wrenches. Knocked a service writer out cold once when it snapped and well... socked him square between the eyes. I told him not to stand there... but noooooo.... he had to be nosy and see what was going on to tell a waiter what was taking so long... head snapped back bounced off the tire and down he went like a sack of potatoes snoring.
Pull the fan shroud, Yank the tranny out, get 3 pole jacks/dead mans, undo the engine mounts, lower the truck gently until the pole jacks/Deadmans were at the dog ears on the block and 1 on the crank pulley. Drop the pan, snake your arm up drop the pickup tube bolts drop the pan and pickup tube assembly. 9 times out of 10 the dip stick tube would be rotten so I wouldn't bother removing that from the valve cover stud nut. I always sold a new one... Unless the truck was pristine. Which they never were... they were always rotted pretty badly... brake clean the shit out of everything, I made a cardboard cut out that went inside the crank case, cookie wheel in the die grinder, get the old rtv off the block. Brake clean the shit out of the pan rails. New pan, I'd take the cookie wheel to the pan rails and remove the paint that way the rtv had a good Bond to the metal, grab a tube of 7.3 oil pan glue and caulk gun, install the dip stick tube adapter to the pan, get a good bead of grey goop on the pan, get the new pick up tube gasket/o-ring, carefully get the pan/pickup tube back in. Get the pickup tube bolts in tight first, gently cautiously get all of the pan bolts started then run them all home in a criss cross pattern. Trim the excess off let it sit over night. Next morning, come in, reinstall everything fill it with oil. Defeat the book time by hours. Never had one leak. I used to reseal the timing cover (7.3s-6.4s timing cover is in the rear of the block, cams go in from behind) and replace the rear mains as well.

4.6s and 5.4s the same shit would happen. I made a tool up for them. That way you didn't have to pull the exhaust manifold to get them off. Use a spiral flute stud/bolt extractor that I had from a swap meet. Old old snap on set back when they were made of real steel. Weld an old pinion nut to it, go in from the top, snake it in behind the manifold with a half inch drive extension pound that fucker in turn it counter clock wise from beneath with the flex head ratchet on it, heat the bung hole for the dip stick tube with a Mapp gas torch, spray a little brake clean if it didn't want to comply. Brake clean was amazing for helping bust the swelled up O ring and break the rust Bond up... once it started spinning smack the bottom of the old pinion nut with a small ball peen hammer and out it comes.

Exhaust manifolds on 4.6 5.4 6.8 always would come in with broken studs. Especially the V10s... they were the most notorious bastards for having manifold leaks due to broken/missing studs.
If the studs were in tact. I'd let the engine idle. Never get hot or up to temp. Grab the 13mm turbo socket low profile flex head ratchet a pry bar to push up behind the ratchet to keep it on the nut, take the nut and stud out in one shot usually. But if the studs were broke in the head? Fuck drilling. If you want to waste time and drill bits have at it. Me? I'd try to get the aluminum oxidation that was built up around the stud shank out with picks and whatever else, take a deburing tool chuck it up in a die grinder zip it out clean it out as best I could, weld a nut to the stud and get the studs out. That was the best way to get a stud out of a head. Galvanic corrosion is the worst.

I don't miss swinging wrenches in the northeast coming home with pockets full of rust, hair/scalp full of rust.
Bay floor stained red for 2 weeks after. With about 20 pounds of what used to be frame, oil pan, brake components, chassis components etc.
Fuck that.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

I assure you excursions do not have plenty of brake.  F250s also are not the braking king of the full size world.
Nailed it!

F450/550 brakes would be suited to stop that weight.
Those have plenty of rotor and pad to stop alot of weight.
I don't miss having to do backing plates on those... I'd watch jackasses grab the heaviest sledge hammer they owned to pound the piss out of the rear wheels or grab the oxy-acetylene torch to heat the steel wheels up (because rust)
I own the dually buddy impact gun and essentially a gear puller that goes in the vent hole of the wheel.
Zip the hex head with the impact, go 180° from it hit it with the impact BANG that bitch let's go, wheel comes right off in a cloud of rust... 19.5 Alcoas were the worst! I broke my first dually buddy pulling 19.5 Alcoas from a F450 king ranch.

Then they'd grab a floor jack and 2x4s after they remove the hub nut and outer wheel bearing and struggle balancing while pulling it off the truck.
Me, I'd just bear hug the rotor and take the whole assembly off with the spindle at chest height. Need a good lift, Rotary makes the best truck lifts
Fuck those Mickey Mouse Mohawk lifts teeter totters of doom! If I had it my way those fucking things would be scrapped.
Yup. Used to sell a ton of backing plates for super duties for state inspection.
Get 3 years tops out of them. Especially! Especially if it were a 350-550 dump truck with a plow and sander/salt spreader in the bed.
I used to take the PM-13-A and coat them, and 6.0 and 6.4 and 7.3 oil pans. I did so many oil pans due to rust... quicklane kids they'd get a plow truck...
Do an oil change on it and come over half covered in oil eyes as big as a full moon, holding the drain plug attached to about a 4 inch patch of rotten oil pan and they say... dude... what do I do?! Am I going to get in trouble?! They're a waiter too
That's when I'd smile and say... welp. Waiters gon wait now ain't they?
MAC sold the 2.5-10mm 1/4 inch drive turbo sockets in .25 mm increments. Best investment made. Used to pound those sockets on damn near non existent or rust bloomed oil pan bolts, hope and pray the head of the bolt doesn't snap off...

Boomer techs would shit when they'd see me do 7.3 oil pans.
HHNNNGGGGG! You gotta pull the motor and turn it upside down! That silicone won't seal unless the engine is upside down on a stand!

Fuck you, no, you dont. Watch. The future is now old man. SAME attitude for 6.0s when I'd do head gaskets on them, HNNGGG Ford says you can't mill the heads! And why are you pulling the cab punk! Just use the engine crane and bracket! No. Because I'm putting studs in. HNNGGG That's not a Ford approved repair! Yeah. Well. If they don't want to pay for head gaskets again, the pen being mightier than the sword... fuck em. They won't know it has studs. Dude needs this truck for a living. I don't work on em pops. I fix em.

Then the 6.4s came out... a truck. They designed to pull the cab on. it was faster to do high pressure fuel pumps and turbos in cab than it was hassling with pulling the cab on those. Used to smoke warranty time by whole hours but I'd run the clock over by 1.5 2 hours while I worked on something else that way when the bean counters do their time studies they would see a time deficit. But noooo.... guys in California Nevada Arizona who don't see real weather or know what rust even is, have to smoke the SLTS labor OP times by 2 3 4 5 hours that way Ford can lower their labor OP times and piss everyone in the rust belt off.
Techs for getting their throats cut because the book doesn't see rust and corrosion... customers, because a tech tried to beat the clock and did shoddy work.
Writers and managers for dealing with angry customers and techs. If you're a virgin, go work at a Ford dealer, flat rate, as a tech. You will get all the fuckin in the world. Long hard and continuously. Your booty hole will be bagged out like a slinky. Looking like an angry babboon with a sore ass from being in the building for 40-50 hours and only making 25-32 hours per week doing it by the book.

7.3 oil pans... I'll take that job at 2pm and have it done and ready to drive tomorrow morning taking my sweet time. They'd scoff and say it'll be back or never leave due to a leak and to do it their way. "Trust me kid, it's gonna leak! But you go ahead and do it your way smart ass!"
I'd ask if they were betting men and I'd put my entire paycheck against theirs a couple took me up on it. Come pay day I'd say just give me a 20 and we're even. Don't ever tell me it can't be done. I'll go out of my way and prove you wrong.

Drain the oil, jackhammer the oil filter off because those pricks always seized on and I always broke strap wrenches. Knocked a service writer out cold once when it snapped and well... socked him square between the eyes. I told him not to stand there... but noooooo.... he had to be nosy and see what was going on to tell a waiter what was taking so long... head snapped back bounced off the tire and down he went like a sack of potatoes snoring.
Pull the fan shroud, Yank the tranny out, get 3 pole jacks/dead mans, undo the engine mounts, lower the truck gently until the pole jacks/Deadmans were at the dog ears on the block and 1 on the crank pulley. Drop the pan, snake your arm up drop the pickup tube bolts drop the pan and pickup tube assembly. 9 times out of 10 the dip stick tube would be rotten so I wouldn't bother removing that from the valve cover stud nut. I always sold a new one... Unless the truck was pristine. Which they never were... they were always rotted pretty badly... brake clean the shit out of everything, I made a cardboard cut out that went inside the crank case, cookie wheel in the die grinder, get the old rtv off the block. Brake clean the shit out of the pan rails. New pan, I'd take the cookie wheel to the pan rails and remove the paint that way the rtv had a good Bond to the metal, grab a tube of 7.3 oil pan glue and caulk gun, install the dip stick tube adapter to the pan, get a good bead of grey goop on the pan, get the new pick up tube gasket/o-ring, carefully get the pan/pickup tube back in. Get the pickup tube bolts in tight first, gently cautiously get all of the pan bolts started then run them all home in a criss cross pattern. Trim the excess off let it sit over night. Next morning, come in, reinstall everything fill it with oil. Defeat the book time by hours. Never had one leak. I used to reseal the timing cover (7.3s-6.4s timing cover is in the rear of the block, cams go in from behind) and replace the rear mains as well.

4.6s and 5.4s the same shit would happen. I made a tool up for them. That way you didn't have to pull the exhaust manifold to get them off. Use a spiral flute stud/bolt extractor that I had from a swap meet. Old old snap on set back when they were made of real steel. Weld an old pinion nut to it, go in from the top, snake it in behind the manifold with a half inch drive extension pound that fucker in turn it counter clock wise from beneath with the flex head ratchet on it, heat the bung hole for the dip stick tube with a Mapp gas torch, spray a little brake clean if it didn't want to comply. Brake clean was amazing for helping bust the swelled up O ring and break the rust Bond up... once it started spinning smack the bottom of the old pinion nut with a small ball peen hammer and out it comes.

Exhaust manifolds on 4.6 5.4 6.8 always would come in with broken studs. Especially the V10s... they were the most notorious bastards for having manifold leaks due to broken/missing studs.
If the studs were in tact. I'd let the engine idle. Never get hot or up to temp. Grab the 13mm turbo socket low profile flex head ratchet a pry bar to push up behind the ratchet to keep it on the nut, take the nut and stud out in one shot usually. But if the studs were broke in the head? Fuck drilling. If you want to waste time and drill bits have at it. Me? I'd try to get the aluminum oxidation that was built up around the stud shank out with picks and whatever else, take a deburing tool chuck it up in a die grinder zip it out clean it out as best I could, weld a nut to the stud and get the studs out. That was the best way to get a stud out of a head. Galvanic corrosion is the worst.

I don't miss swinging wrenches in the northeast coming home with pockets full of rust, hair/scalp full of rust.
Bay floor stained red for 2 weeks after. With about 20 pounds of what used to be frame, oil pan, brake components, chassis components etc.
Fuck that.
We get it...You're a mechanic.  Please stop typing so many words.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 9:07:27 AM EDT
[#3]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


That's an incorrect statement, as noted above. The Super Dutys have notoriously awful brakes, especially if it's factory OEM pads. I wasnt even aware mine had brakes until i swapped to some HAWK pads.
Besides that, the rear brakes are prone to rust, backing plates literally falling apart, rendering "parking" brakes useless. I also had a brake line pop while driving due to rust issues. I know of multiple people who have had the same line pop on theirs as well.
View Quote


Having worked ina  Ford fleet and owned a few Ford trucks I have never once heard "Super Dutys have notorious awful brakes"  I live in the south. Prone to rust is a product of the environment. Brake line pop is a common problem with Chevrolet's as well. As is internal line failure. Saw it when I worked in a  GM fleet way more than I ever saw it on Fords.  
I will agree and am a fan of better pads. Motorcraft makes a severe duty pad for ambulances , Delco makes a ceramic pad. We used Performance Friction for a lot of out heavily loaded vans.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 9:16:17 AM EDT
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How does everyone in the limo die?  It didn't burn.  It didn't go off the bank/bridge into a river/lake and the doors stay locked.  They don't have seat belt laws in NY?  The driver didn't make them wear seat belts?
View Quote
I've never seen a limo driver do that.
ETA: If it was sarcasm, sorry, I haven't had all my coffee yet.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 9:21:30 AM EDT
[#5]
Not sure if seatbelts would have even helped at that speed. Was it said if the driver was wearing one? And he/she died too?

I had a brake line fail in a 2000 Pontiac. I came to a stoplight, and thankfully was almost at a complete stop, and pedal just kept going all the way to the floor. I was able to limp it to work which was just a few blocks away at that point.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 9:32:17 AM EDT
[#6]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

We get it...You're a mechanic.  Please stop typing so many words.
View Quote
Was. Not any more

You ever brew A tears of rogueboss beer?
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 9:53:58 AM EDT
[#7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Was. Not any more

You ever brew A tears of rogueboss beer?
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

We get it...You're a mechanic.  Please stop typing so many words.
Was. Not any more

You ever brew A tears of rogueboss beer?
No. The market isn’t big enough.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 10:15:29 AM EDT
[#8]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
didn't follow her gut feeling
View Quote
Who does?  Everyone will make a comment like "this looks to be in bad shape" or "this thing doesn't look safe", but in the end they'll still get in.  Myself included.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 10:33:12 AM EDT
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
It makes no sense that all the people in the limo died......The cause of death reports should be interesting.
View Quote
This INCIDENT is very tragic, in that it was completely preventable. Stretch limos are some of the least comfortable death traps on wheels. I'd rather be in an econobox car than in a stretch limo any day. Not a damn thing wrong with a regular "black/white town car" or Yukon XL.

@1srelluc
Aren't you a current or former EMT-B?

Initial reports are the vehicle lost stopping ability. Everyone except the driver was in a compartment of the vehicle where protection would be offered by a passive restraint system (seatbelt) and active systems (airbags).

There is very low suitability going from 80km/h to zero in less than 2 seconds or 33 metres, absent those two things, and especially if the thing that creates terminal velocity is perpendicular to travel (think: head on impact).

Everyone in the passenger compartment that was not wearing a seatbelt was a 60mph projectile. Go outside, run as fast as you can into a wall. Do it twice . The first time stick your hands out to break your stop. The 2nd time around you'll be going much slower, from having to deal with broken clavicles, collar bones, wrists, dislocated shoulders and possibly broken elbow, ulnar and humerous as well as a busted rib or four.

If you can manage a 2nd go with those injuries, expect to see a busted sternum, z bones in the face, teeth, jaw and serious neck injury - all from running into a wall at 15mph.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 10:36:05 AM EDT
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Who does?  Everyone will make a comment like "this looks to be in bad shape" or "this thing doesn't look safe", but in the end they'll still get in.  Myself included.
View Quote
Not me. I've declined to get into many vehicles and small airplanes. My entire adult life, I've always been involved in work heavily dependent on travel. Granted, what I will ride in, in India and Ghana is different than what I will ride in, in Sweden, Utah or Miami.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 10:44:09 AM EDT
[#11]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Having worked ina  Ford fleet and owned a few Ford trucks I have never once heard "Super Dutys have notorious awful brakes"  I live in the south. Prone to rust is a product of the environment. Brake line pop is a common problem with Chevrolet's as well. As is internal line failure. Saw it when I worked in a  GM fleet way more than I ever saw it on Fords.  
I will agree and am a fan of better pads. Motorcraft makes a severe duty pad for ambulances , Delco makes a ceramic pad. We used Performance Friction for a lot of out heavily loaded vans.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

That's an incorrect statement, as noted above. The Super Dutys have notoriously awful brakes, especially if it's factory OEM pads. I wasnt even aware mine had brakes until i swapped to some HAWK pads.
Besides that, the rear brakes are prone to rust, backing plates literally falling apart, rendering "parking" brakes useless. I also had a brake line pop while driving due to rust issues. I know of multiple people who have had the same line pop on theirs as well.
Having worked ina  Ford fleet and owned a few Ford trucks I have never once heard "Super Dutys have notorious awful brakes"  I live in the south. Prone to rust is a product of the environment. Brake line pop is a common problem with Chevrolet's as well. As is internal line failure. Saw it when I worked in a  GM fleet way more than I ever saw it on Fords.  
I will agree and am a fan of better pads. Motorcraft makes a severe duty pad for ambulances , Delco makes a ceramic pad. We used Performance Friction for a lot of out heavily loaded vans.
I've owned plenty and worked on hundred's. While both our stories are anecdotal that doesnt make mine any less true. Spend some time on a Ford Truck forum and you'll how many Excursion, F250, and F350 truck owners are looking for brake upgrades, whether it be installing F450/F550 brakes or going an aftermarket 6 piston route.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 10:56:21 AM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How does everyone in the limo die?  It didn't burn.  It didn't go off the bank/bridge into a river/lake and the doors stay locked.  They don't have seat belt laws in NY?  The driver didn't make them wear seat belts?

The damn thing didn't look tore up that bad, the short bit of video I saw of it.

Just hard to believe EVERYONE in the limo would have died.  Some of them up front, yeah, but everyone???
View Quote
I can only see one side of it. If it rotated sideways and smashed into the bank of the ditch then there could have been 17 people pitched headfirst into the side windows and roof. snap crackle pop.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 10:59:13 AM EDT
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Who does?  Everyone will make a comment like "this looks to be in bad shape" or "this thing doesn't look safe", but in the end they'll still get in.  Myself included.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
didn't follow her gut feeling
Who does?  Everyone will make a comment like "this looks to be in bad shape" or "this thing doesn't look safe", but in the end they'll still get in.  Myself included.
And how likely is it that whatever prompted her comment contributed to the accident?  Seems likely that whatever issue a passenger in these things would have would be related to the interior.  Issues with the interior might indicate a lack of overall maintenance, but who knows at this stage.

It certainly does add to the overall tragedy of it...
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:02:09 AM EDT
[#14]
Must have been hauling ass.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:06:10 AM EDT
[#15]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This INCIDENT is very tragic, in that it was completely preventable. Stretch limos are some of the least comfortable death traps on wheels. I'd rather be in an econobox car than in a stretch limo any day. Not a damn thing wrong with a regular "black/white town car" or Yukon XL.

@1srelluc
Aren't you a current or former EMT-B?

Initial reports are the vehicle lost stopping ability. Everyone except the driver was in a compartment of the vehicle where protection would be offered by a passive restraint system (seatbelt) and active systems (airbags).

There is very low suitability going from 80km/h to zero in less than 2 seconds or 33 metres, absent those two things, and especially if the thing that creates terminal velocity is perpendicular to travel (think: head on impact).

Everyone in the passenger compartment that was not wearing a seatbelt was a 60mph projectile. Go outside, run as fast as you can into a wall. Do it twice . The first time stick your hands out to break your stop. The 2nd time around you'll be going much slower, from having to deal with broken clavicles, collar bones, wrists, dislocated shoulders and possibly broken elbow, ulnar and humerous as well as a busted rib or four.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
It makes no sense that all the people in the limo died......The cause of death reports should be interesting.
This INCIDENT is very tragic, in that it was completely preventable. Stretch limos are some of the least comfortable death traps on wheels. I'd rather be in an econobox car than in a stretch limo any day. Not a damn thing wrong with a regular "black/white town car" or Yukon XL.

@1srelluc
Aren't you a current or former EMT-B?

Initial reports are the vehicle lost stopping ability. Everyone except the driver was in a compartment of the vehicle where protection would be offered by a passive restraint system (seatbelt) and active systems (airbags).

There is very low suitability going from 80km/h to zero in less than 2 seconds or 33 metres, absent those two things, and especially if the thing that creates terminal velocity is perpendicular to travel (think: head on impact).

Everyone in the passenger compartment that was not wearing a seatbelt was a 60mph projectile. Go outside, run as fast as you can into a wall. Do it twice . The first time stick your hands out to break your stop. The 2nd time around you'll be going much slower, from having to deal with broken clavicles, collar bones, wrists, dislocated shoulders and possibly broken elbow, ulnar and humerous as well as a busted rib or four.
That's a good analogy. According to math, if you want to recreate the forces inside the limo, jump off a cliff 130 feet high and land on your head.

130 feet:

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:09:05 AM EDT
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I've never seen a limo driver do that.
ETA: If it was sarcasm, sorry, I haven't had all my coffee yet.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
How does everyone in the limo die?  It didn't burn.  It didn't go off the bank/bridge into a river/lake and the doors stay locked.  They don't have seat belt laws in NY?  The driver didn't make them wear seat belts?
I've never seen a limo driver do that.
ETA: If it was sarcasm, sorry, I haven't had all my coffee yet.
I have ridden in dozens and dozens of limos

Never even seen or noticed seatbelts in any of them ( honestly I was not looking ) nor have I ever had a driver mention anything about seatbelts as myself or anyone else entered the limo(s)
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:18:39 AM EDT
[#17]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I can only see one side of it. If it rotated sideways and smashed into the bank of the ditch then there could have been 17 people pitched headfirst into the side windows and roof. snap crackle pop.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
How does everyone in the limo die?  It didn't burn.  It didn't go off the bank/bridge into a river/lake and the doors stay locked.  They don't have seat belt laws in NY?  The driver didn't make them wear seat belts?

The damn thing didn't look tore up that bad, the short bit of video I saw of it.

Just hard to believe EVERYONE in the limo would have died.  Some of them up front, yeah, but everyone???
I can only see one side of it. If it rotated sideways and smashed into the bank of the ditch then there could have been 17 people pitched headfirst into the side windows and roof. snap crackle pop.
Looking at the tree branches that are chainsawed, I wonder if some of those didn't penetrate the passenger compartment, adding to the chaos.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:27:38 AM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Yep, it's a complete pain in the rear. I honestly only do it every other year so I can renew my registration. They cost $21.
View Quote
They're 45-60 bucks here, plus any repairs. Every year. And the ticket for an expired SI is $105.00. Yeah, State of Vermont is making bank.

-

edit for spelling...
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:29:00 AM EDT
[#19]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Must suck to drive on salty roads.
View Quote
Not as bad as driving on icy roads.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:35:01 AM EDT
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
That's a good analogy. According to math, if you want to recreate the forces inside the limo, jump off a cliff 130 feet high and land on your head.

130 feet:

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/27166/rock-climber-isle-of-skye-scotland-by-jamie-moss-698089.JPG
View Quote
Well I ain't no Isaac Newton ... but I am pretty sure the same forces inside the limo are equal to the forces applied to the limo itself

And I seriously doubt you can roll said limo off of that cliff from 130 feet and nearly every single window on one side remains unbroken
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:47:59 AM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This
View Quote
Weird.  New members usually don't use their 1st ever post to "this" a quote...

Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:49:01 AM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Looking at the tree branches that are chainsawed, I wonder if some of those didn't penetrate the passenger compartment, adding to the chaos.
View Quote
I would agree. My guess is the side against the bank/trees is destroyed and everything including people were propelled against that side during the impact with great force. All the debris came from that side and inside.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:49:53 AM EDT
[#23]
Correct, you are no Isaac Newton.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 11:55:27 AM EDT
[#24]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Correct, you are no Isaac Newton.
View Quote
OK Einstein

Explain to everyone how that limo rolls off of a 130 foot cliff and nearly all the windows remain completely UNBROKEN after the incredible impact and forces exerted upon 'said limo' and its passengers
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:01:55 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
A bunch of 30-somethings were celebrating a birthday. Breaks failed on the limo...
View Quote
them's the brakes
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:05:28 PM EDT
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:... It’s getting into peak leaf season.
View Quote
leaf season?

people hunt or harvest leaves?
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:19:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

leaf season?

people hunt or harvest leaves?
View Quote
Schoharie sits deep in a valley in the Catskill Mountains.  Driving into town from the north requires you descend a long grade.  It is a really beautiful place too.

The whole area of New England is invaded by leaf peepers this time of the year.  When the colors are at their peak it is quite a spectacular show for a few weeks.   When we move from NY the fall season is what I will miss most.  Nothing like it anywhere else in the country.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:23:11 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
This INCIDENT is very tragic, in that it was completely preventable. Stretch limos are some of the least comfortable death traps on wheels. I'd rather be in an econobox car than in a stretch limo any day. Not a damn thing wrong with a regular "black/white town car" or Yukon XL.

@1srelluc
Aren't you a current or former EMT-B?

Initial reports are the vehicle lost stopping ability. Everyone except the driver was in a compartment of the vehicle where protection would be offered by a passive restraint system (seatbelt) and active systems (airbags).

There is very low suitability going from 80km/h to zero in less than 2 seconds or 33 metres, absent those two things, and especially if the thing that creates terminal velocity is perpendicular to travel (think: head on impact).

Everyone in the passenger compartment that was not wearing a seatbelt was a 60mph projectile. Go outside, run as fast as you can into a wall. Do it twice . The first time stick your hands out to break your stop. The 2nd time around you'll be going much slower, from having to deal with broken clavicles, collar bones, wrists, dislocated shoulders and possibly broken elbow, ulnar and humerous as well as a busted rib or four.

If you can manage a 2nd go with those injuries, expect to see a busted sternum, z bones in the face, teeth, jaw and serious neck injury - all from running into a wall at 15mph.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
It makes no sense that all the people in the limo died......The cause of death reports should be interesting.
This INCIDENT is very tragic, in that it was completely preventable. Stretch limos are some of the least comfortable death traps on wheels. I'd rather be in an econobox car than in a stretch limo any day. Not a damn thing wrong with a regular "black/white town car" or Yukon XL.

@1srelluc
Aren't you a current or former EMT-B?

Initial reports are the vehicle lost stopping ability. Everyone except the driver was in a compartment of the vehicle where protection would be offered by a passive restraint system (seatbelt) and active systems (airbags).

There is very low suitability going from 80km/h to zero in less than 2 seconds or 33 metres, absent those two things, and especially if the thing that creates terminal velocity is perpendicular to travel (think: head on impact).

Everyone in the passenger compartment that was not wearing a seatbelt was a 60mph projectile. Go outside, run as fast as you can into a wall. Do it twice . The first time stick your hands out to break your stop. The 2nd time around you'll be going much slower, from having to deal with broken clavicles, collar bones, wrists, dislocated shoulders and possibly broken elbow, ulnar and humerous as well as a busted rib or four.

If you can manage a 2nd go with those injuries, expect to see a busted sternum, z bones in the face, teeth, jaw and serious neck injury - all from running into a wall at 15mph.
I'm not saying you are wrong, just that it's curious. I would expect serious injury and deaths but not all deaths.....How many wrecks have you seen where there were multiple deaths but someone managed to survive?

I can think of one back in the early 70s where a bunch of local teens/20 somethings (all drunk) were coming back from clubbing in WV and the driver struck a concrete bridge rail going about 80......Four died in that one but the driver and one passenger survived but with very bad injuries. The four that died were all ejected. None were wearing seat belts. The Impala they were in looked like a smashed sardine can.

In fact one that was crippled in that wreck (paralyzed from the waist down) died last year. The driver recovered fully, he did 3.5 years of a five year sentence for manslaughter, had his parole moved to another jurisdiction and never returned to the area.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:34:20 PM EDT
[#29]
Likely some tree limbs entered the vehicle on impact as well.

Very sad.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:40:07 PM EDT
[#30]
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:40:49 PM EDT
[#31]
beat
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:42:29 PM EDT
[#32]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
View Quote
Someone's probably going to jail over this. Right?
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:42:44 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
I would agree. My guess is the side against the bank/trees is destroyed and everything including people were propelled against that side during the impact with great force. All the debris came from that side and inside.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:

Looking at the tree branches that are chainsawed, I wonder if some of those didn't penetrate the passenger compartment, adding to the chaos.
I would agree. My guess is the side against the bank/trees is destroyed and everything including people were propelled against that side during the impact with great force. All the debris came from that side and inside.
That's what struck me, the side of the limo we see in the photos looks intact, but there is a lot of debris in the other photos that had to come from somewhere.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:44:14 PM EDT
[#34]
Heck if they all had just "drank and drove" they'd still be alive and grabbing a greasy breakfast somewhere.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:44:38 PM EDT
[#35]
There were no skid marks after it blew through the stop sign and killed the first two pedestrians.  It was said it may have been traveling 60 mph when it went into the ravine.

Intersection where limo crash killed 20 is a menace, says store manager

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/intersection-where-limo-crash-killed-20-are-menace-says-store-n917711
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:59:14 PM EDT
[#36]
My guess is Brake Fade (no skid marks) / failure as well, if there were previous hills on that route, which fade is sometimes regarded as a failure, coupled with the driver probably not being familiar with that road.

Horrible.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 12:59:33 PM EDT
[#37]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Someone's probably going to jail over this. Right?
View Quote
Depends. Possibly YES.

Question is...
If the vehicle failed and was beyond the 10 day grace period following a NYSI...Why didn't NY cancel the registration? Pricks did it to me when a beater of mine lost a transmission and LKQ took their sweet time finding one.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:14:53 PM EDT
[#38]
The vehicle had been brought in as a replacement after a bus meant to transport the party broke down.

It belonged to Prestige Limousines and Lisinicchia was one of two drivers employed by the company.

In the last two years, it has had four vehicles taken out of service upon inspection, documents from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration that were obtained by DailyMail.com on Monday reveal.



Scott Lisinicchia, 53, was driving the limo which crashed in upstate New York on Saturday, killing 20 including himself.

Witnesses said the limo was traveling around 60mph when it blew through a stop sign at the bottom of a steep hill opposite a store, which is known to locals as an accident hotspot.

Trucks were banned from using the road in recent years after several lost control while coming down the steep gradient, the state Department of Transportation said.



More
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:19:51 PM EDT
[#39]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
How does everyone in the limo die?  It didn't burn.  It didn't go off the bank/bridge into a river/lake and the doors stay locked.  They don't have seat belt laws in NY?  The driver didn't make them wear seat belts?

The damn thing didn't look tore up that bad, the short bit of video I saw of it.

Just hard to believe EVERYONE in the limo would have died.  Some of them up front, yeah, but everyone???
View Quote
No seatbelts.

Blunt Force Trauma.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:32:32 PM EDT
[#40]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Depends. Possibly YES.

Question is...
If the vehicle failed and was beyond the 10 day grace period following a NYSI...Why didn't NY cancel the registration? Pricks did it to me when a beater of mine lost a transmission and LKQ took their sweet time finding one.
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Depends. Possibly YES.

Question is...
If the vehicle failed and was beyond the 10 day grace period following a NYSI...Why didn't NY cancel the registration? Pricks did it to me when a beater of mine lost a transmission and LKQ took their sweet time finding one.
There is no 10 day grace "period". The 10 day extension is to allow you to fix your vehicle without the state yanking your registration, which everyone acknowledges is a big hassle.
Commercial vehicles are not supposed to be in-service if they failed a NYS inpsection. Again the 10 day extension is not "ok, you can drive for 10 more days" - it's "ok, fix your shit within 10 days and get back to us".

Back in the bad old days if you had an emissions failure, and you spent $600 ($700?) to fix it, but your vehicle still failed the emissions portion, you would get a waiver for the emissions failure. I don't know if that exists today.

The operators of that limo company are (my opinion only) already dick deep with state and federal investigators, are for all intents and purposes no longer in business, and none of those principals will ever be able to operate anything in NY that has moving parts! They are also going to have to declare bankruptcy (today is a holiday, otherwise I'd say they've already filed).

This incident was totally preventable, there is nothing the operators of that vehicle could use to explain away what happened, short of the limo striking something prior to the collision that disabled it's ability to stop, go or steer.
(Remember the Concorde incident of July 2000? It ran over debris from another aircraft. It (concorde) was over it's maximum takeoff weight for ambient conditions and over it's structural weight limit - but neither of these contributed to the crash)

https://dmv.ny.gov/inspection/new-york-vehicle-inspection-program-nyvip
How do I get a 10-day extension of my current inspection?

You can receive inspection receipt that includes a 10-day extension if

the previous inspection was expired at the time of the inspection

your vehicle passed all parts of the inspection except the test of the OBD-II readiness monitors
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:35:57 PM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
OK Einstein

Explain to everyone how that limo rolls off of a 130 foot cliff and nearly all the windows remain completely UNBROKEN after the incredible impact and forces exerted upon 'said limo' and its passengers
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Correct, you are no Isaac Newton.
OK Einstein

Explain to everyone how that limo rolls off of a 130 foot cliff and nearly all the windows remain completely UNBROKEN after the incredible impact and forces exerted upon 'said limo' and its passengers
This isn't a relativity problem. And it appears you are the only one who needs an explanation.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:37:27 PM EDT
[#42]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

The vehicle had been brought in as a replacement after a bus meant to transport the party broke down.

It belonged to Prestige Limousines and Lisinicchia was one of two drivers employed by the company.

In the last two years, it has had four vehicles taken out of service upon inspection, documents from the Federal Motor Carrier Safety Administration that were obtained by DailyMail.com on Monday reveal.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1/2018/10/08/12/4852564-6251457-image-m-28_1538998570490.jpg

Scott Lisinicchia, 53, was driving the limo which crashed in upstate New York on Saturday, killing 20 including himself.

Witnesses said the limo was traveling around 60mph when it blew through a stop sign at the bottom of a steep hill opposite a store, which is known to locals as an accident hotspot.

Trucks were banned from using the road in recent years after several lost control while coming down the steep gradient, the state Department of Transportation said.

https://i.dailymail.co.uk/1/2018/10/08/13/4850982-6251457-image-m-51_1539000545357.jpg

More
View Quote
Are there any pics of the actual grade of the hill? I can't find any.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:38:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Someone's probably going to jail over this. Right?
View Quote
Maybe, but the driver is dead so maybe not.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:40:01 PM EDT
[#44]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
View Quote
lol, inspection laws. What a fuckin waste of time.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:41:30 PM EDT
[#45]
Prestige limousine NY.

The bus they may have rented but broke down.



Or this one, they had two.



The Ford Excursion.



https://www.weddingwire.com/biz/prestige-limousine-service-rochester/1091e3f1a177a182.html
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:44:22 PM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Are there any pics of the actual grade of the hill? I can't find any.
View Quote
Looks, I guess, are deceiving.  Doesn't look steep at all to me.

Taken from goog earth from the intersection of 30 and 30A looking up the hill.

Attachment Attached File


Side view of hill grade.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:47:50 PM EDT
[#47]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

This isn't a relativity problem. And it appears you are the only one who needs an explanation.
View Quote
(nothing here directed at you )

Riding in a limo is literally potentially dangerous.

1. No passive restraints typically used.
2. No useful active restraints used in conjunction with passive restraints. Under normal circumstances, drivers without seat-belts suffer greater injury from getting too close/too fast to the front airbag. I can't imagine what would happen in a vehicle with side airbags and...
3. People sitting perpendicular to the direction the vehicle going in.
4. Vehicle modified with little consideration for structural integrity during an accident.

In a regular SUV the seat in front of you (2nd & 3rd row passengers) is designed to not kill you / slow you down without killing you. This rarely exists in limo style vehicle. Add in a couple of champagne bottles and the hard edges from the cool contoured illuminated furniture in back, and you have enough to actually kill people in even low impact collisions.

A big part of my job is travel. We almost always refuse any stretch anything, no matter how cool our client/provider thinks it is.
From a "security" perspective limos are harder to defend, less navigable, attract more attention, and does not allow rapid egress.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:49:01 PM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

There is no 10 day grace "period". The 10 day extension is to allow you to fix your vehicle without the state yanking your registration, which everyone acknowledges is a big hassle.
Commercial vehicles are not supposed to be in-service if they failed a NYS inpsection. Again the 10 day extension is not "ok, you can drive for 10 more days" - it's "ok, fix your shit within 10 days and get back to us".

Back in the bad old days if you had an emissions failure, and you spent $600 ($700?) to fix it, but your vehicle still failed the emissions portion, you would get a waiver for the emissions failure. I don't know if that exists today.

The operators of that limo company are (my opinion only) already dick deep with state and federal investigators, are for all intents and purposes no longer in business, and none of those principals will ever be able to operate anything in NY that has moving parts! They are also going to have to declare bankruptcy (today is a holiday, otherwise I'd say they've already filed).

This incident was totally preventable, there is nothing the operators of that vehicle could use to explain away what happened, short of the limo striking something prior to the collision that disabled it's ability to stop, go or steer.
(Remember the Concorde incident of July 2000? It ran over debris from another aircraft. It (concorde) was over it's maximum takeoff weight for ambient conditions and over it's structural weight limit - but neither of these contributed to the crash)

https://dmv.ny.gov/inspection/new-york-vehicle-inspection-program-nyvip
View Quote
There was an extension that I used to print out off the inspection station giving 10 days upon failure after removing the sticker.
That was both before, and AFTER the new NYSVIP machine. Might have changed since I left NY. Anyways we are making the same argument.

It wasn't a go ahead and drive it, it was the vehicle needs to be repaired in 10 days and only to be driven to and from the repair facility.
Applied to both groups 1 and 2. I held 1 and 2 1 was for cars and half ton trucks. 2 was 3/4 ton and up.
Attachment Attached File


Hence why I asked, why wasn't the registration canceled?
Mine was on a beater truck I had... tranny lost all forward gears was cheaper to get a junkyard unit than a rebuild kit and new torque converter.
NYS wasted no time canceling the registration for being what was it... 12 days past the last day of the month it was inspected. Found out when my insurance company called me.
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:50:41 PM EDT
[#49]
Link Posted: 10/8/2018 1:54:53 PM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

There was an extension that I used to print out off the inspection station giving 10 days upon failure after removing the sticker.
That was both before, and AFTER the new NYSVIP machine. Might have changed since I left NY. Anyways we are making the same argument.

It wasn't a go ahead and drive it, it was the vehicle needs to be repaired in 10 days and only to be driven to and from the repair facility.
Applied to both groups 1 and 2. I held 1 and 2 1 was for cars and half ton trucks. 2 was 3/4 ton and up.
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/468326/20181008_042632-698259.JPG

Hence why I asked, why wasn't the registration canceled?
Mine was on a beater truck I had... tranny lost all forward gears was cheaper to get a junkyard unit than a rebuild kit and new torque converter.
NYS wasted no time canceling the registration for being what was it... 12 days past the last day of the month it was inspected. Found out when my insurance company called me.
View Quote
I don't know what year you were born, but I know the day and month of your birth.

Yeah, that part bolded was my understanding. It was an extension to facilitate repair of the vehicle and nothing else.

My brother received a ticket for having a 10 day extension inspection sticker, he appealed and lost.
Page / 8
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.


By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top