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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:33:28 PM EDT
[#1]
Where do they plan on flying them back to for maintenance? Fighters, especially old ones, break a lot and require a lot of parts and trained maintenance personnel.
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:33:40 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If only the french protected their own continent. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: If only the French would have felt the same way.. Why would they spend their own money when they can get the US taxpayers to fund their defense? |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:33:58 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't forget anything. Yes, that's is in there. What are the ramifications in the agreement when Russia doesn't do that. Nothing... It was a shit agreement to begin with. Russia is threatening the world with nukes and there have been many meetings. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the 5 millionth time... No, it's not correct. The document they signed and agreed to said we would convene a meeting (with the UN security council) if they were threatened with nukes. They always forget that part... as well as the fact that the Russians are threatening to use nukes. I didn't forget anything. Yes, that's is in there. What are the ramifications in the agreement when Russia doesn't do that. Nothing... It was a shit agreement to begin with. Russia is threatening the world with nukes and there have been many meetings. How's it working out for the Russians these days? |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:34:32 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where do they plan on flying them back to for maintenance? Fighters, especially old ones, break a lot and require a lot of parts and training maintenance personnel. F16s are everywhere in Europe. Not to mention they have been training on them since July |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:34:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Lets give them some nucs too!
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:34:37 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I didn't forget anything. Yes, that's is in there. What are the ramifications in the agreement when Russia doesn't do that. Nothing... It was a shit agreement to begin with. Russia is threatening the world with nukes and there have been many meetings. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the 5 millionth time... No, it's not correct. The document they signed and agreed to said we would convene a meeting (with the UN security council) if they were threatened with nukes. They always forget that part... as well as the fact that the Russians are threatening to use nukes. I didn't forget anything. Yes, that's is in there. What are the ramifications in the agreement when Russia doesn't do that. Nothing... It was a shit agreement to begin with. Russia is threatening the world with nukes and there have been many meetings. I agree, it was a wink wink nod nod give up your nukes and we'll be by your side. But it required no real action. Ukraine got fucked with that deal. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:35:05 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How's it working out for the Russians these days? Day 334 of my 3 day war: I think I have made a mistake I remain a master general Darth Putin |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:36:20 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lets give them some nucs too! Fine by me, they had them and we convinced them to give them up. Bet Russia would have thought twice if Ukraine was still nuclear capable and had the means to deliver them. Fuck if we allow North Korea to have them, and Iran to develop them, why not Ukraine? |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:37:15 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How's it working out for the Russians these days? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the 5 millionth time... No, it's not correct. The document they signed and agreed to said we would convene a meeting (with the UN security council) if they were threatened with nukes. They always forget that part... as well as the fact that the Russians are threatening to use nukes. I didn't forget anything. Yes, that's is in there. What are the ramifications in the agreement when Russia doesn't do that. Nothing... It was a shit agreement to begin with. Russia is threatening the world with nukes and there have been many meetings. How's it working out for the Russians these days? Thankfully about the 3rd or 4th time Russia pulling their takeover shit for the last 15 years "the world" finally came to their senses (kinda) and decided something needed to be done about it. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:38:23 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unlimited trillions as long as it kills just one orc. It’s ok to saddle our children and grandchildren with debt as long as zelensky has trillions to funnel back to democrats to keep the democrats in power for ever. I'm amazed how many here cheerlead for this obvious grifting scheme. Hunter, The Big Guy and the rest of the Dems made and continue making bank on this. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:38:27 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F16s are everywhere in Europe. Not to mention they have been training on them since July Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Where do they plan on flying them back to for maintenance? Fighters, especially old ones, break a lot and require a lot of parts and training maintenance personnel. F16s are everywhere in Europe. Not to mention they have been training on them since July I wonder who will be the first to go from material support to direct personnel support? It’s the next level up that I don’t see many Euro countries agreeing to. That leaves Uncle Sam. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:39:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, that means endless suffering for the population of Ukraine. Not acceptable. Russia can pull back at any time and the bloodshed ends on both sides. They were the aggressor. They are slaughtering civilians en mass. Only fighting them to a stalemate means they will fight longer and more people will die, more homes destroyed, more children orphaned. Back down to Russia and Iran, North Korea, China, Venezuela, and every other despot will know that they can win by refusing to respect the laws of war and threatening WMDs if anybody tries to intervene. Not looking for our troops to be over there fighting the Russians, but I'm all for training the Ukrainians and arming the with the equipment needed to defang the bear. Yes that means endless suffering for Ukrainians. Kinda fucked up huh? We won't let them win but we aren't going to do enough to make them lose. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:42:28 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hiram, if that's what this administration was looking to do, this would be over by now. They are obviously striking a balance with the amount and type of support they are sending. Yes that means endless suffering for Ukrainians. Kinda fucked up huh? We won't let them win but we aren't going to do enough to make them lose. explain |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:44:21 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hiram, if that's what this administration was looking to do, this would be over by now. They are obviously striking a balance with the amount and type of support they are sending. Yes that means endless suffering for Ukrainians. Kinda fucked up huh? We won't let them win but we aren't going to do enough to make them lose. Iraq and Afghanistan ended how is the Defense Industry supposed to make money and pay their kickbacks to the Democrats and the rest of the deep state? Solution, war on Russia and probably China soon. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:46:33 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I wonder who will be the first to go from material support to direct personnel support? It’s the next level up that I don’t see many Euro countries agreeing to. That leaves Uncle Sam. US servicemen going in to combat? 
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:47:49 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F16s are everywhere in Europe. Not to mention they have been training on them since July https://nltimes.nl/2023/01/20/netherlands-consider-helping-ukraine-f-16-fighters-leopard-2-tanks |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:50:24 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh we didn't face Migs in Korea or Vietnam? News to me. Domestically produced I suppose. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: They really do want war. Oh we didn't face Migs in Korea or Vietnam? News to me. Domestically produced I suppose. Don't forget the SAMS that killed our pilots. Those were also made in a bamboo/thatch hut. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:52:03 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How long until Russia decides that canned sunshine is a good plan? That’s a ultimate final decision so I can’t project but China despite claiming otherwise and North Korea and Russia have all revamped their nuclear policy. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:56:17 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This isn't about repaying them back, you've missed the point I'm afraid. It is about using proxies to fight battled we don't want or need to fight directly. The fact that it both destroys an enemy and ends needless bloodshed on an independent nation is a bonus. The French saw us as a way to harm England while also promoting our freedom. The parallels are there. What the French did wasn't noble, it wasn't for the cause of freedom. It worked for us, sure. But they were doing exactly as you say, using us to harm the British. We are using Ukrainians to harm the Russians, and probably charging the Ukrainians for the favor, as did the French. We supported the Muj in Afghanistan for the same reasons, nobody gave a shit about Afghans, as soon as the Russians left so did we. Does that feel right to you? How many times do we have to repeat the same process knowing the law of unintended consequences bites us in the ass every time before we try something different? We either need to smile and wave as the world goes to shit, and learn to live with ourselves. Or we tell pooty that he's got a week to get all the shit he cares about out of Ukrainian territory. After that it's a target. We have the capability to end this quickly. We aren't. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:57:23 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They really do want war. Ukraine's already got one and its about as much as they can handle keeping from being overrun. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:57:36 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: F16s are everywhere in Europe. Not to mention they have been training on them since July |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 5:59:42 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: War or having their country erased by the Russians tough choice. I have said it before Never thought I would see people on the right talking shit about people that are fighting for their countries right to even exist. I suspect more and more a lot of these people arent on the right (except for guns, thats all they care about), as you read their posts about fairness etc otherwise, jealous about money and someone else making a few more bucks than they do, and certainly not children of the cold war. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:04:47 PM EDT
[#23]
I've been hesitant to say this - but - Russia has the bodies to keep feeding the grinder. May be the untrained masses - prisoners - mercs or whatever. Ukraine can kill all that cross the border but they keep coming. Somehow you have to cut the head off the snake to stop it. Take out Putin? Level Moscow? I don't know.
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:06:19 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've been hesitant to say this - but - Russia has the bodies to keep feeding the grinder. May be the untrained masses - prisoners - mercs or whatever. Ukraine can kill all that cross the border but they keep coming. Somehow you have to cut the head off the snake to stop it. Take out Putin? Level Moscow? I don't know. As does Ukraine. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:07:02 PM EDT
[#25]
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:07:49 PM EDT
[#26]
Maybe F-15Cs would be given before F-16 is considered? Air Force having issues with capacity and upgrading fast enough to F-35A or F-15EX and NGAD is 2032 or later so they want to ditch the older F-15s but are stuck with F-16s beyond originally expected https://www.military.com/daily-news/2023/01/17/air-force-moves-f-16s-europe-japan-ukraine-war-lingers-and-pacific-tensions-simmer.html/amp
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:08:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Dutch...the Danes...who else? The USA |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:09:04 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: explain It's been a year, there isn't a system fielded that we couldn't have taught a reasonably qualified Ukrainian how to use. Yet, we haven't given them more advanced weapons. We are playing proxy games. The Russian army isn't formidable, we have been providing extensive ISR resources since before the war started, it is easily within our ability to roll the Russians back to the border. We are either intimidated by the nuclear threat, and maybe we should be, or we are using the Ukrainians to chew up the Russians for our own gain. Giving them enough resources to survive but not win. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:09:09 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As does Ukraine. I could be wrong but I estimate they have enough to maintain current force levels for another 2 or 3 years. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:10:56 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Look at the Russian military. They are not up to par. A conventional war between the US and Russia would be measured in hours. It's been a year, there isn't a system fielded that we couldn't have taught a reasonably qualified Ukrainian how to use. Yet, we haven't given them more advanced weapons. We are playing proxy games. The Russian army isn't formidable, we have been providing extensive ISR resources since before the war started, it is easily within our ability to roll the Russians back to the border. We are either intimidated by the nuclear threat, and maybe we should be, or we are using the Ukrainians to chew up the Russians for our own gain. Giving them enough resources to survive but not win. You want US to fight the Russians? |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:11:50 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I could be wrong but I estimate they have enough to maintain current force levels for another 2 or 3 years. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: As does Ukraine. I could be wrong but I estimate they have enough to maintain current force levels for another 2 or 3 years. Agreed and if motivated the remnants can fall back to the Carpathian passes and hold indefinitely. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:14:39 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As does Ukraine. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've been hesitant to say this - but - Russia has the bodies to keep feeding the grinder. May be the untrained masses - prisoners - mercs or whatever. Ukraine can kill all that cross the border but they keep coming. Somehow you have to cut the head off the snake to stop it. Take out Putin? Level Moscow? I don't know. As does Ukraine. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:15:40 PM EDT
[#33]
Sell them A-10s.
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:15:51 PM EDT
[#34]
Fuck giving Ukraine F-16s give them F-22s
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:17:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Anyone with half a brain that can remember the Clinton Admin? They convinced Ukraine to dispose of their Nukes, and in return we would help them if needed. Is this not correct?? not saying its right on wrong. but it was the clinton administration that decided nato expansion up to the old soviet union's border was a good idea. russia is a nation of outlaws basically now, but historically it is also a very paranoid nation with a long history of invasions from every point on the compass. should we support the ukranians? i dont know. the biggest question is what is the final outcome of the current mess. if the world ends up fucked but 'we did the right thing in supporting ukraine', it wont matter in the end. invasion of Russia can refer to: Mongol invasion of Kievan Rus' (1237–1242), a series of invasions that resulted in the Rus' states becoming vassals of the Golden Horde. Livonian campaign against Rus' (1240–1242), an unsuccessful Teutonic invasion of the Novgorod and Pskov Republics, in order to convert them to Catholicism. Russo-Crimean Wars (1570–1572), an Ottoman invasion that penetrated Russia and destroyed Moscow. Polish–Muscovite War (1609–1618), Poland gained Severia and Smolensk. Ingrian War (1610–1617), a Swedish invasion which captured Novgorod and Pskov. Swedish invasion of Russia (1708–1709), an unsuccessful Swedish invasion, as part of the Great Northern War (1700–1721). French invasion of Russia (1812), an unsuccessful invasion by Napoleon's French Empire and its allies, as part of the Napoleonic Wars (1803–1815). Crimean War (1853–1856), a series of conflicts between the Ottoman Empire, the British Empire, the French Empire, Sardinia, and the Russian Empire, including an Allied invasion of the Crimean Peninsula. Japanese invasion of Sakhalin (1905), an invasion and annexation by the Japanese, as part of the Russo-Japanese War (1904–1905). Eastern Front (World War I) (1914–1918), Russia was forced to cede Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic states to Germany as the Russian Empire collapsed. Caucasus campaign (1914–1918), a series of conflicts between the Russian Empire, its various successor states, and the Ottoman Empire during World War I. Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War (1918–1925) and the contemporaneous Polish–Soviet War (1918/9–1921), the Polish occupation of Belarus and West Ukraine. Japanese intervention in Siberia (1918–1922), an occupation of the Russian Far East by Japanese soldiers during the Russian Civil War (1917–1923). Operation Barbarossa (1941), an unsuccessful invasion of the Soviet Union led by Nazi Germany that started the Eastern Front (World War II) of 1941–1945. Continuation War (1941–1944), an unsuccessful German-Finnish invasion of the Soviet Union, as part of World War II. Kantokuen (1941), an aborted plan for a major Japanese invasion of the Russian Far East during World War II. Operation Unthinkable (1945), a proposed contingency plan for an Anglo-American invasion of the Soviet Union developed by the British Chiefs of Staff during the later stages of World War II. War of Dagestan (1999), a repulsed Chechen invasion of Dagestan. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:18:36 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sell them A-10s. Not a great environment for low and slow. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:26:26 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Fuck giving Ukraine F-16s give them F-22s There’s only like 142 or 148 operational F-22s |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:30:51 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's only like 142 or 148 operational F-22s |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:34:02 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Agreed and if motivated the remnants can fall back to the Carpathian passes and hold indefinitely. Even a 180 degree worse case all hell turnaround for Ukraine would devolve into Vietnam/ Afghanistan scenario for Russia if it miraculously took all or most of Ukraine but now Russia is upset by statements from Moldova government so they’re likely to want to address that somehow too. When Russia recently reiterated their goals the implication was removing Kiev government and that’s a lofty goal. Russia has set some really high bars for itself that i doubt are achievable and even if I’m wrong it the time and treasure to achieve them is enormous to put it mildly. Reminds me of China possibly setting the world on fire over an island. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:35:33 PM EDT
[#40]
F-16s? Might as well ask for some A-10s for that tank busting power they were designed for.
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:36:44 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what, we ain't using them right now |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:40:11 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They really do want war. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:42:39 PM EDT
[#43]
What don’t we just give them a carrier and an SSBN while we are at it…?
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:43:37 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: not sure if serious Well after being assured by GD that the American military is nothing but woke trannies that will never win a war. Why not give Ukraine F-22s and F-35s? |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:43:40 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You want US to fight the Russians? We are just dragging it out. That works in the case of a cold war. But if we believe the cause of ending the suffering of the Ukrainians is a worthy one, and I think it is, what we are doing is prolonging the war. My argument is that while good dudes like Hiram and others think that is the motivation...I don't think our actions support that conclusion. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:44:08 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So what, we ain't using them right now https://www.upi.com/amp/Top_News/World-News/2022/12/20/US-South-Korea-air-drills-B-52-F-22-North-Korea-missile/1131671532449/ |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:44:23 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They really do want war. Global nuclear war...the firestorm out from whose ashes their Globalist Anti Christ government will arise. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:52:52 PM EDT
[#48]
The Viper isn't so useful for defeating cruise missiles and loitering munitions, which is the biggest threat to Ukraine right now. However, battlefield CAPs could free up ground-based systems for redeployment to a strategic role protecting infrastructure. Of course, the line of contact is a high-threat environment for a non-stealthy airframe... In the short-term, systems like Patriot seem more valuable, pound-for-pound.
On the other hand, GBAD is vulnerable to long-range fires just as fighters are vulnerable to long-range SAMs. And, thinking long-term, Ukraine must have severely depleted their SAM stocks, while NATO has almost no stockpiles to offer. Diversifying systems so they can make use of A2A missiles is going to be valuable. They need to avoid running out of missiles for the battlefield and thereby letting the VVS run wild on their forces. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:53:37 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We already are. We are just dragging it out. That works in the case of a cold war. But if we believe the cause of ending the suffering of the Ukrainians is a worthy one, and I think it is, what we are doing is prolonging the war. My argument is that while good dudes like Hiram and others think that is the motivation...I don't think our actions support that conclusion. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You want US to fight the Russians? We are just dragging it out. That works in the case of a cold war. But if we believe the cause of ending the suffering of the Ukrainians is a worthy one, and I think it is, what we are doing is prolonging the war. My argument is that while good dudes like Hiram and others think that is the motivation...I don't think our actions support that conclusion. I honestly agree with this. The Biden Administration has repeatedly hamstrung aid to Ukraine, especially in terms of things like long range PGMs, MBTs and IFVs (which are just starting to come now), aircraft, etc. If we really wanted to, we could have had the Ukrainians equipped with tons of MBTs and IFVs, at least training on Western aircraft and setting up the logistics for them, and presently smashing targets deep in the Russian rear with ATACMS and GLSDB. Why haven't we been willing to commit to that level? I don't really know for sure. My suspicion is twofold: Biden is actually scared of provoking Russia, and there's elements within our intelligence agencies who want to drag this out as long as possible, in order to ensure Russia bleeds as long as possible. Still, I think we don't actually have to put boots on the ground in order to expel the Russians. With lots of NATO MBTs and IFVs, ATACMS and GLSDB (to hit deep in the Russian rear), and Western aircraft, I think they'd probably throw the Russians out. |
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Posted: 1/25/2023 6:55:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What don’t we just give them a carrier and an SSBN while we are at it…? That’s next. Like a child in a toy store who is never told no. |
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