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Posted: 9/23/2022 8:59:20 AM EDT
Interesting article that my friend sent me. I'm sure it will spark interesting debates here.
 Here are a couple of surprising statements from the data: The general (and predictable) consensus was that the most common CCW calibers see the most action. They all agreed that, from a medical perspective, there was no noticeable or real-world difference between .380 ACP, .38 Special, .357 Magnum and 40-caliber. The only major standout was .45 ACP, where it resulted in about twice the fatality rate as the others, even to extremities. There was no positive correlation with death based on bullet type used. Said another way, again from this medical perspective, hollow-points aren’t any more effective in practical applications than a FMJ. Do Bullet Types Even Matter? It’s my belief, based on my experience and that of professionals far smarter than me, that most bullet designs have less bearing on lethality than where that bullet goes. Shot placement, not caliber used or bullet type used, is the major deciding factor in lethality. This might be a no-brainer, but there is no doubt that the merits of bullet type will be debated for years to come. https://gundigest.com/article/a-medical-perspective-on-ammunition-and-lethality |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:00:43 AM EDT
[#1]
That's what I have been saying for years.
Pistol Calibers suck compared to Rifles Put if you are gonna carry a pistol...FFS use .45 or larger. Sonny mother loving Crocket CCW's a Bren Ten, what's your excuse? |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:01:47 AM EDT
[#2]
Shot placement, not caliber used or bullet type used, is the major deciding factor in lethality.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:03:02 AM EDT
[#3]
This is old news. Shot placement matters and pistols are pistols.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:04:59 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryEarlier in the article they state that the .45 acp was much more better at killing, but then make the statement you quoted later on. Seems counterintuitive to say one caliber is better, but then conclude later on that caliber doesn't matter. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:06:12 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Earlier in the article they state that the .45 acp was much more better at killing, but then make the statement you quoted later on. Seems counterintuitive to say one caliber is better, but then conclude later on that caliber doesn't matter. Quote HistoryQuoted: Earlier in the article they state that the .45 acp was much more better at killing, but then make the statement you quoted later on. Seems counterintuitive to say one caliber is better, but then conclude later on that caliber doesn't matter. If you get shot in the leg with any pistol, chances are good you'll live If you get shot in the leg with a 5.56, the bullet is gonna frag and tumble and take out arteries. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:09:35 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's what I have been saying for years. Pistol Calibers suck compared to Rifles Put if you are gonna carry a pistol...FFS use .45 or larger. Sonny mother loving Crocket CCW's a Bren Ten, what's your excuse? Pardon my lack of instant inch to metric conversion skills, but isn’t 10mm smaller than .45? |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:09:48 AM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Earlier in the article they state that the .45 acp was much more better at killing, but then make the statement you quoted later on. Seems counterintuitive to say one caliber is better, but then conclude later on that caliber doesn't matter. i think those points arent mutually exclusive. shot placement is #1, but shots similarly placed are more lethal from a 45 than a 380, for example |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:10:08 AM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you get shot in the leg with any pistol, chances are good you'll live If you get shot in the leg with a 5.56, the bullet is gonna frag and tumble and take out arteries. Ummmm. Rifle= high velocity = Temporary wound cavity bro = Major increase in damage |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:10:27 AM EDT
[#9]
So, if you have good shot placement with a .45, is the threat automatically dead right there?
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:13:13 AM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pardon my lack of instant inch to metric conversion skills, but isn’t 10mm smaller than .45? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: That's what I have been saying for years. Pistol Calibers suck compared to Rifles Put if you are gonna carry a pistol...FFS use .45 or larger. Sonny mother loving Crocket CCW's a Bren Ten, what's your excuse? Pardon my lack of instant inch to metric conversion skills, but isn’t 10mm smaller than .45? What I was getting at is that a Bren Ten is a big gun, they make smaller guns in .45 these days. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:14:21 AM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: i think those points arent mutually exclusive. shot placement is #1, but shots similarly placed are more lethal from a 45 than a 380, for example Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Earlier in the article they state that the .45 acp was much more better at killing, but then make the statement you quoted later on. Seems counterintuitive to say one caliber is better, but then conclude later on that caliber doesn't matter. i think those points arent mutually exclusive. shot placement is #1, but shots similarly placed are more lethal from a 45 than a 380, for example Ah, that makes sense. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:15:07 AM EDT
[#12]
Double
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:18:19 AM EDT
[#13]
One of the main reasons to carry "defensive ammo" is that your HST is a lot less likely to cause malfunctions than shitbox WWB.
The argument that pistols can't achieve X,XXX FPS so they inherently suck is retarded. About the fastest you can find factory loaded 45-70 is 2050 FPS and it will kill the shit out of pretty much anything on land. Handgun bullets use different woulding mechanisms than SCHV rifle rounds and are constructed accordingly. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:20:42 AM EDT
[#14]
I don’t feel like going deep on this* but did they distinguish segment on multiple shots and capacity?
* I already went deep on your mom |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:21:59 AM EDT
[#15]
I knew the Medical Examiner in Memphis during the 80's, 90's and early 2000. He did thousands of GSW Autopsy's. He carried a .45ACP with ball ammo.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:22:32 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you get shot in the leg with any pistol, chances are good you'll live If you get shot in the leg with a 5.56, the bullet is gonna frag and tumble and take out arteries. That depends more on the bullet design and the twist rate, i.e. 55grain fmj in 1:7 twist. What does the damage is the hydrostatic shock, that will rupture arteries and veins and do nerve damage. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:23:09 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, if you have good shot placement with a .45, is the threat automatically dead right there? No, technically they were dead before hammer dropped, lol. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:24:20 AM EDT
[#18]
I fucking hate these binary arguments.
Pistols suck for lethality compared to rifles. Modern defensive ammo helps pistols suck less over a wider range of scenarios due to more consistent penetration and expansion creating more traumatic wound profiles and increased surface area increasing the chance of hitting something to stop the fight. Putting that bullet in the correct place(s) is, has been, and always will be extremely important. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:24:21 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If you get shot in the leg with any pistol, chances are good you'll live If you get shot in the leg with a 5.56, the bullet is gonna frag and tumble and take out arteries. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Earlier in the article they state that the .45 acp was much more better at killing, but then make the statement you quoted later on. Seems counterintuitive to say one caliber is better, but then conclude later on that caliber doesn't matter. If you get shot in the leg with any pistol, chances are good you'll live If you get shot in the leg with a 5.56, the bullet is gonna frag and tumble and take out arteries. Rifle bullets also cavitate soft tissue. If there is an organ (kidney, liver, spleen, pancreas, etc) in the bullet wake zone it will likely be destroyed. That might not kill instantly but it will get you after a few days. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:25:55 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So, if you have good shot placement with a .45, is the threat automatically dead right there? yes, thats how it got its name. 45 auto, aka 45 acp. a little known historical fact is colt had patent rights so they named it "acp" for "automatic colt pistol", purely marketing. they rejected john browning's preferred name choice 45 ADRT - automatically dead right there 
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:26:00 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t feel like going deep on this* but did they distinguish segment on multiple shots and capacity? * I already went deep on your mom Quote HistoryQuoted: I don’t feel like going deep on this* but did they distinguish segment on multiple shots and capacity? * I already went deep on your mom Gietzen continued: “When it comes to multiple injuries, there’s no real case that says more bullet holes in more places cause more bleeding. In fact, even a person shot once may not bleed externally. Almost all the blood in the body can be held in the pelvis, and it’s not uncommon for a gunshot victim to bleed externally in a way that does not appear to be life threatening.” Multiple shots increase the likelihood that a vital structure is hit, but does not increase lethality. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:26:54 AM EDT
[#22]
They are all the same, so I just carry a .25 much easier for shot placement.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:27:04 AM EDT
[#23]
So birdshot is the best ammo. Size doesn’t matter and placement will be everywhere
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:27:52 AM EDT
[#24]
I legitimately wonder if the .45acp correlation is that the majority of .45ACP pistols carried are SA vs. the the other calibers being DA resulting in first shot placement being on target better?
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:28:34 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Rifle bullets also cavitate soft tissue. If there is an organ (kidney, liver, spleen, pancreas, etc) in the bullet wake zone it will likely be destroyed. That might not kill instantly but it will get you after a few days. Reduces the time the bad guy is up overall. Every second counts. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:29:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I fucking hate these binary arguments. Pistols suck for lethality compared to rifles. Modern defensive ammo helps pistols suck less over a wider range of scenarios due to more consistent penetration and expansion creating more traumatic wound profiles and increased surface area increasing the chance of hitting something to stop the fight. Putting that bullet in the correct place(s) is, has been, and always will be extremely important. In multiple wound ballistic articles that have been published, there doesn't appear to be data that supports the claim in red. I get it, it's counterintuitive and you'd assume that an expanded bullet is more likely to clip an artery or something, but the support data is hard to come by. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:30:49 AM EDT
[#27]
26+ years in big city LE and I've seen a ton of people shot by criminals and the police.
Shot placement is everything. I carry 9mm almost exclusively but I must say if its a periphery impact... the higher energy of the more potent rounds do play a factor. Example being a 115gr 9mm bullet hitting a femur bone as opposed to a 155gr 10mm hot load. Physics are real. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:31:58 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So birdshot is the best ammo. Size doesn’t matter and placement will be everywhere Birdshot would likely fail because the most important factor is causing enough bleeding to stop the bad guy. Bullets that hit vital organs and cause lots of bleeding are effective (according to the article). Birdshot doesn't penetrate deep enough to cause lots of bleeding. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:32:52 AM EDT
[#29]
LOL.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:33:43 AM EDT
[#30]
Guns are icky.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:35:46 AM EDT
[#31]
pick a reliable gun. carry reliable ammo. shoot accurately.
more important, the SA to avoid a gunfight in the first place. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:36:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Birdshot would likely fail because the most important factor is causing enough bleeding to stop the bad guy. Bullets that hit vital organs and cause lots of bleeding are effective (according to the article). Birdshot doesn't penetrate deep enough to cause lots of bleeding. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So birdshot is the best ammo. Size doesn't matter and placement will be everywhere Birdshot would likely fail because the most important factor is causing enough bleeding to stop the bad guy. Bullets that hit vital organs and cause lots of bleeding are effective (according to the article). Birdshot doesn't penetrate deep enough to cause lots of bleeding. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:37:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Lethality is a useless metric.
If your attacker bled out 2 minutes after turning your skull inside out with a crowbar, you lost the fight decisively. Exsanguination is a lousy defensive incapacitation mechanism. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:38:51 AM EDT
[#34]
"No difference between a 380 and 40 cal." I don't
 believe it.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:39:17 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In multiple wound ballistic articles that have been published, there doesn't appear to be data that supports the claim in red. I get it, it's counterintuitive and you'd assume that an expanded bullet is more likely to clip an artery or something, but the support data is hard to come by. But if in your brain every shooting is just like going to the range where you're standing there squared off squeezing rounds slowly at piece of paper 5 yards away then by all means save some cash and carry around a .22lr zip gun or something since clearly it doesn't matter. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:40:02 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In multiple wound ballistic articles that have been published, there doesn't appear to be data that supports the claim in red. I get it, it's counterintuitive and you'd assume that an expanded bullet is more likely to clip an artery or something, but the support data is hard to come by. I have often debated with myself: What has more value: A hollow point creating a 2x wound channel and putting all of the bullet energy into a target Or A bullet zipping through a body, opening up a second (and usually significant) hemorrhaging wound and the possibility of clipping the spinal cord..... |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:40:03 AM EDT
[#37]
Lies. We have all been taught that 9mm will blow out lungs. Stick to the real science folks.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:40:15 AM EDT
[#38]
Yeah, but how many lungs were blown completely out of the bodies?
ETA: 12 damn seconds. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:41:33 AM EDT
[#39]
What's also true is that any gun is better than no gun, so I'll just keep doing what I'm doing which is have a .380, 9mm, or .45 on or around me when I'm away from the house (which one depends on the location/situation) and have an AR handy when I'm home.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:42:00 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lethality is a useless metric. If your attacker bled out 2 minutes after turning your skull inside out with a crowbar, you lost the fight decisively. Exsanguination is a lousy defensive incapacitation mechanism. That's actually a very good point. Time until death or time until a person stops doing bad things is not discussed and likely very difficult data to get. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:42:55 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: pick a reliable gun. carry reliable ammo. shoot accurately. more important, the SA to avoid a gunfight in the first place. "A well developed sense of situational awareness will enable you to avoid far more trouble than any gun will ever get you out of." And, when trouble cannot be avoided, the ability to perform will mean more than the instrument itself. People argue endlessly over guns, ammo, and gear. Meanwhile, it's training and practice that will carry the day. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:43:06 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Earlier in the article they state that the .45 acp was much more better at killing, but then make the statement you quoted later on. Seems counterintuitive to say one caliber is better, but then conclude later on that caliber doesn't matter. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:44:18 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have often debated with myself: What has more value: A hollow point creating a 2x wound channel and putting all of the bullet energy into a target Or A bullet zipping through a body, opening up a second (and usually significant) hemorrhaging wound and the possibility of clipping the spinal cord..... I haven't done this but I have read of people using both JHP and FMJ, alternating each round, so get both? |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:47:05 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have often debated with myself: What has more value: A hollow point creating a 2x wound channel and putting all of the bullet energy into a target Or A bullet zipping through a body, opening up a second (and usually significant) hemorrhaging wound and the possibility of clipping the spinal cord..... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: In multiple wound ballistic articles that have been published, there doesn't appear to be data that supports the claim in red. I get it, it's counterintuitive and you'd assume that an expanded bullet is more likely to clip an artery or something, but the support data is hard to come by. I have often debated with myself: What has more value: A hollow point creating a 2x wound channel and putting all of the bullet energy into a target Or A bullet zipping through a body, opening up a second (and usually significant) hemorrhaging wound and the possibility of clipping the spinal cord..... The data the article is discussing would say that it makes zero difference. Choose ammo that is reliable in your gun, and make good hits. It even states that a 2nd (exit) would doesn't matter. Blood leaving the body vs. blood pooling in the body is the same. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:47:22 AM EDT
[#45]
I've heard that 9mm will blow out a lung.
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:47:40 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's actually a very good point. Time until death or time until a person stops doing bad things is not discussed and likely very difficult data to get. This is the main reason why postmortem data, while fascinating and of SOME value, needs to be relegated to a pretty small role in making defensive equipment selections. The deal is, actual, scientific study of incapacitation potential of various cartridges/bullets/etc. using real-world examples is next to impossible. There's just far too many variables to establish controls for. Then look at assertions like mine, that the large majority of handgun "stops" are psychological rather than physiological in nature, and you add in literally thousands more variables, most of which are literally impossible to control for. This is why, IMHO, things like calibrated gel testing and the "FBI protocol" are so valuable... not because they're terribly predictive (they aren't), they're just the best thing we have, because at least they are repeatable, consistent, and based on the scientific method.  Attached File |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:48:56 AM EDT
[#47]
Just from your intro, it looks retardated. No diff between a .380 acp and a .357 mag? Why not a .22?
All things count. Bullet placement, penetration, bullet expansion, etc... Yeah, rifles work better than pistols. Duh. Which is a matter of velocity and bullet design. Is the author a medical professional- qualified to make these judgments? TR: DR from the intro |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:50:05 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lethality is a useless metric. If your attacker bled out 2 minutes after turning your skull inside out with a crowbar, you lost the fight decisively. Exsanguination is a lousy defensive incapacitation mechanism. Exactly there’s a lot of dead folks that were laying right next to the other party on slabs. I don’t want them to die on the way to the hospital I want them to stop trying to kill me now. One of the best articles I’ve seen on that was the officer who shot the guy 14 times with a 45 6 in “fatal” locations yet both ended up in a trauma room next to each other at the hospital dude died and had no drugs or alcohol on board. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:50:24 AM EDT
[#49]
Not buying the .380 = .357 magnum
Yes shot placement but energy is in the equation too. |
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Posted: 9/23/2022 9:54:02 AM EDT
[#50]
Keep in mind, all those inner city shootings aren't happening with fancy "defensive" ammunition.
And more than not, it's by 9mm or smaller. |
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