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Attached File Flux glock brace and flashmag, can in silly long configuration Attached File Flux glock, rattler suppressed, 14.5" SBR Attached File Rattler compared to SBS 870. 12" barrel. Shorter and way more rounds on tap Attached File Rattler vs 1911. Both cool, only one fits on my belt, but damn that's a small PDW Attached File 18" AR at the tp for scale. Then 14.5, rattler, rattler pistol, flux. Even my small carry guns have dots, extending their effective range. |
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Put the top SBR into the dishwasher and fully agitate before using. |
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Since this is a Medium Spicy situation vice TEOTWAWKI discussion, and IMO the primary situations revolve around roadblocks and/or being forced to abandon your vehicle during a wide spread riot, the use case seems to place a premium on discreet presence during very uncertain situations versus optimized fighting capability. This skews the choices towards ultra compact weapons that may only increase high stress hit probability two or three times that of a pistol, say twenty five to fifty yards. Think of the Rittenhouse incident as a scenario. After the first shooting, he broke contact and fled but was highly identifiable by carrying a full sized long gun in his hands. Thus he was pursued, run down and forced to shoot again. Had one of the ANTIFools been armed with a shotgun or rifle, or had the cops not been right there... Perhaps if he'd been equipped with a weapon that was concealable under a loose shirt(at least from a short distance) he might have been able to fade away and evade successfully. Remember...he was 18 and couldn't outrun the mob. While the 5.56 AR platform is the apotheosis of the fighting rifle with its ergos and a viciously wounding cartridge, this comes at a price in size, weight and concussion(which if you downsize must be made up for with a suppressor which negates the downsizing and adds a thousand bucks plus to the cost), the pistol chassis concept looks compelling for this use case. 9mm hollowpoints are not love taps as they are sometimes made to look in comparison to the intermediate rifle rounds, and the increase in high stress hit potential and rate of controllable fire along with big stick mags certainly makes them a big step up from handguns across the entire likely engagement range. For 300.00(100.00 chassis plus ATF geld) a Recover Tactical that can turn a spare Glock or 320 into a 90% solution that keeps enormous portability and offers plausible concealment (plus magazine compatibility with your EDC) sounds very intriguing. Again , the original genesis for the military PDW concept was to equip soldiers whose primary job wasn't directly engaging the enemy(like mechanics or drivers) with something more effective than a pistol. The way I parse this situation is the need to suddenly fight very efficiently at common handgun ranges or slightly beyond, and then the need to break contact and evade(possibly even disappearing into a crowd) in a very short term event. An RDS PDW with a big stick mag/EDC handgun combo with four spare mags on your belt under a loose shirt? That checks a lot of Medium Spice boxes where day to day life still must go on. |
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Want. But left eye dominant and hear the gas blowback to the face is absolutely atrocious shooting left handed. Any truth to that? |
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Quoted: Since this is a Medium Spicy situation vice TEOTWAWKI discussion, and IMO the primary situations revolve around roadblocks and/or being forced to abandon your vehicle during a wide spread riot, the use case seems to place a premium on discreet presence during very uncertain situations versus optimized fighting capability. This skews the choices towards ultra compact weapons that may only increase high stress hit probability two or three times that of a pistol, say twenty five to fifty yards. Think of the Rittenhouse incident as a scenario. After the first shooting, he broke contact and fled but was highly identifiable by carrying a full sized long gun in his hands. Thus he was pursued, run down and forced to shoot again. Had one of the ANTIFools been armed with a shotgun or rifle, or had the cops not been right there... Perhaps if he'd been equipped with a weapon that was concealable under a loose shirt(at least from a short distance) he might have been able to fade away and evade successfully. Remember...he was 18 and couldn't outrun the mob. While the 5.56 AR platform is the apotheosis of the fighting rifle with its ergos and a viciously wounding cartridge, this comes at a price in size, weight and concussion(which if you downsize must be made up for with a suppressor which negates the downsizing and adds a thousand bucks plus to the cost), the pistol chassis concept looks compelling for this use case. 9mm hollowpoints are not love taps as they are sometimes made to look in comparison to the intermediate rifle rounds, and the increase in high stress hit potential and rate of controllable fire along with big stick mags certainly makes them a big step up from handguns across the entire likely engagement range. For 300.00(100.00 chassis plus ATF geld) a Recover Tactical that can turn a spare Glock or 320 into a 90% solution that keeps enormous portability and offers plausible concealment (plus magazine compatibility with your EDC) sounds very intriguing. Again , the original genesis for the military PDW concept was to equip soldiers whose primary job wasn't directly engaging the enemy(like mechanics or drivers) with something more effective than a pistol. The way I parse this situation is the need to suddenly fight very efficiently at common handgun ranges or slightly beyond, and then the need to break contact and evade(possibly even disappearing into a crowd) in a very short term event. An RDS PDW with a big stick mag/EDC handgun combo with four spare mags on your belt under a loose shirt? That checks a lot of Medium Spice boxes where day to day life still must go on. Well said. I've been looking at the SCW 320 for this reason. That said, I can draw from and return to its backpack with my 6" 300BLK PDW, though not as quickly as a holster. Get both? |
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Starting to collect size/weight comparisons. First up, Sig Rattler upper on a Virtus lower. I don't have the factory Rattler lower since I bought the canebrake (if anyone has a 300blk rattler factory handguard reach out, will buy). Holosun 507C on an ANVL mount, MI handguard, Rugged M2 muzzle brake, Sig Minimalist stock.  6 lbs, 7.9 oz with a loaded 20 round Lancer magazine, 110 gr VMAX.  15.5" long when folded, 23" extended 2.5" wide with folded minimalist stock I wanted to get some size/weight stuff for the Rattler in the smallest configuration, but I also am throwing up how I usually have it set up as well (because I like my hearing).  7 lbs, 13.5 oz with the same loaded Lancer mag with 110gr VMAX, Sig sidefolding stock, CGS Hyperion K suppressor, Surefire scout light and Sig SD Canebrake handguard.  20.25" folded, 26.75" extended 3" wide with stock folded |
So now that we have one of the smallest/lightest Type 4 mini rifles out of the way, how about a Flux Raider X?  vvFlux Raider X SBR stock, TLR7, Holosun 503, compact sig slide, threaded barrel and harrington arms 2 port xl comp. 4lbs, 5 oz with 38 rounds of 124gr 9mm in the 17 round and 21 round magazines.  11.25" folded, 18.65" with stock extended 1.625" wide Even if you add a suppressor, its still shorter, thinner and lighter (and carrying more rounds) than an unsuppressed Rattler. Everything the same except remove Harrington Arms comp, and add CGS Mod9k. 4 lbs 11.6 oz loaded.  14.5" folded, 22" extended with mod9k still 1.625" wide 
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Has anyone tried the "Cheek Pistol" concept as shown by Rhett Neumayer of Demonstrated Concepts? With the right setups, this allows for a super short non-NFA or stockless or braceless pistol to be mounted and fired very quickly with serious accuracy. The technique allows an extremely compressed shooting mount with a split second first shot while maintaining balance and peripheral vision. He has used the technique with Kel Tec CP-33, 7.5" AR15s, MP5 clones and TP9s. |
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Quoted: So now that we have one of the smallest/lightest Type 4 mini rifles out of the way, how about a Flux Raider X? https://i.imgur.com/k8tqSoJ.jpgvv Flux Raider X SBR stock, TLR7, Holosun 503, compact sig slide, threaded barrel and harrington arms 2 port xl comp. 4lbs, 5 oz with 38 rounds of 124gr 9mm in the 17 round and 21 round magazines. https://i.imgur.com/zeTAFyG.jpg 11.25" folded, 18.65" with stock extended 1.625" wide Even if you add a suppressor, its still shorter, thinner and lighter (and carrying more rounds) than an unsuppressed Rattler. Everything the same except remove Harrington Arms comp, and add CGS Mod9k. 4 lbs 11.6 oz loaded. https://i.imgur.com/R19jtpi.jpg 14.5" folded, 22" extended with mod9k still 1.625" wide https://i.imgur.com/pTgZSTd.jpg Thanks for doing that. I would guess the difference in ballistics between the two is probably just as staggering as the size and weight differences though  Not that 9mm hasn't killed plenty of people, but I'd wager 110gr 300BO has a bit more ass when it comes to making bad people stop being bad |
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Quoted: Thanks for doing that. I would guess the difference in ballistics between the two is probably just as staggering as the size and differences though Not that 9mm hasn't killed plenty of people, but I'd wager 110gr 300BO has a bit more ass when it comes to making bad people stop being bad This is kind of where I'm at with the whole thing. I already carry a full size 9mm with spare mag. I wanted the next step up to be a real step up. A short 300BO just made more sense. |
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Quoted: This is kind of where I'm at with the whole thing. I already carry a full size 9mm with spare mag. I wanted the next step up to be a real step up. A short 300BO just made more sense. The rattler is super awesome. But its substantially bigger than flux. Fully get the “i want a rifle” argument, and not disputing the validity. But its nice we have smaller/lighter options that absolutely are still a step up from the usual carry. And you are unusual in the “carrying a full sized handgun+spare mag already” bit. Whole lot of people carrying J frames, some flavor of 365/shield/hellcat, etc. for those people a 7 lbs rifle might be a bigger ask than a 4 lbs bagged pcc. Options are good. |
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Quoted: So now that we have one of the smallest/lightest Type 4 mini rifles out of the way, how about a Flux Raider X? https://i.imgur.com/k8tqSoJ.jpgvv Flux Raider X SBR stock, TLR7, Holosun 503, compact sig slide, threaded barrel and harrington arms 2 port xl comp. 4lbs, 5 oz with 38 rounds of 124gr 9mm in the 17 round and 21 round magazines. https://i.imgur.com/zeTAFyG.jpg 11.25" folded, 18.65" with stock extended 1.625" wide Even if you add a suppressor, its still shorter, thinner and lighter (and carrying more rounds) than an unsuppressed Rattler. Everything the same except remove Harrington Arms comp, and add CGS Mod9k. 4 lbs 11.6 oz loaded. https://i.imgur.com/R19jtpi.jpg 14.5" folded, 22" extended with mod9k still 1.625" wide https://i.imgur.com/pTgZSTd.jpg Just weighted today after testing and accessorizing: FM-15 upper 9" 300 blk, regular forged lower, SB Tactical folding brace, AEMS rds, Streamlight ProTac 1 w/ tapeswitch mounted via Arisaka mount, OdinWorks aluminum AFG, Magpul MBUS 3s, SiCo Omega 9k can....... total weight 6.2 pounds!!! |
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Sig Rattler 5.5" barrel with 110gn 300blk Vmax ~ est 1900fps = 882 ft/lbs energy Glock 17 4.5" barrel Flux Raider with 115gn 9mm ~ est 1200fps = 368 ft/lbs energy While the Flux Raider config boasts significant size and weight advantages, the Sig Rattler boasts almost 2.5times more energy. Everything is a trade off I guess. This is a cool thread btw. 
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Inspired me to go check my own. My 9" SBR decked out with optics and light (no mag, no suppressor) is 8.5lbs and 26" with stock collapsed. I didn't realize what a big bastard it was for an SBR. My lightest AR is my 16" spare parts build at 7lbs 13oz with an A2 receiver. |
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Quoted: My lightest AR is my 16" spare parts build at 7lbs 13oz with an A2 receiver. I have a 12” Grendel that was purpose built as a light weight gun. Balios receiver set, slick upper, noveske skinny rail. Its under 5 lbs slick and still only 8 lbs 13 oz with a loaded 17 round mag,1-8 variable with a 12 mounted red dot, suppressor, LAM and a light. Great gun, one of my favorites. Weight and size isnt the only factor for a PDW, but it can matter. Just to make up a scenario to justify them, if there was some local disturbances and you and your neighbors wanted to set up a soft observation post/potential roadblock at a chokepoint into your neighborhood, its easier to carry something like the flux or an mp5k on a single point sling under a jacket than a rattler. Not overt enough to get karen to call the cops or draw attention from provocateurs but better than your edc for those medium spicy days. |
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Quoted: Everything is a trade off I guess. This is a cool thread btw. Absolutely. Thats why I have several different kinds. Not arguing that one answer is right and one is wrong, just trying to get people thinking about if a civi pdw might be useful for them. And thank you. 
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Some weights/measurements Type 2 Recover Tactical 20/20(buttpad NFA version) Basic 22lr config 18oz unloaded. 11” folded-19.5” stock deployed. As pictured with VFG and suppressor(extremely dirty/heavy). 34oz unloaded. 14” folded-22.5” stock deployed.  Recover Tactical 20/20(buttpad NFA version) Basic 9mm config 35oz unloaded 12” folded-20.5” stock deployed. As pictured w/ VFG and suppressor. 48oz unloaded, 17” folded-25” stock deployed.  Never actually worn the holster they included that allows you to “CCW” the chassis. It only adds a few ounces though. Weight/measurements Type 3 & 4. Folding stock AR9 posted earlier. 98oz 13” folded, 21” stock deployed, 24” stock fully extended. With suppressor 108oz. 19” folded, 27” stock deployed, 30” stock fully extended. 7.5” 5.56 AR posted earlier. 93oz 24” stock collapsed, 27” extended. With suppressor 108oz. 30” stock collapsed, 33” extended. |
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Quoted: I have a 12" Grendel that was purpose built as a light weight gun. Balios receiver set, slick upper, noveske skinny rail. Its under 5 lbs slick and still only 8 lbs 13 oz with a loaded 17 round mag,1-8 variable with a 12 mounted red dot, suppressor, LAM and a light. Great gun, one of my favorites. Weight and size isnt the only factor for a PDW, but it can matter. Just to make up a scenario to justify them, if there was some local disturbances and you and your neighbors wanted to set up a soft observation post/potential roadblock at a chokepoint into your neighborhood, its easier to carry something like the flux or an mp5k on a single point sling under a jacket than a rattler. Not overt enough to get karen to call the cops or draw attention from provocateurs but better than your edc for those medium spicy days. If your frame of reference is using either as an offensive weapon in a pitched gunbattle against multiple determined opponents armed with rifles then both will likely fall short. If you can see the use case for "As much capability as we can get, without exiting the realm of the covert into the overt" as stated in the linked Brass Facts video, then you can get a clearer set of parameters. He also emphasized the utility of being able to return quickly to "covert" status. I would suggest that the minimum standard for a useful PDW would be to seriously increase the probability and speed of a first round hit across all likely engagement ranges and increase the rate of controllable accurate fire across those ranges, as measured against an optimized EDC pistol, such as an iteration of the Roland Special concept. The performance delta of a PCC in USPSA(shot on the same course of fire as Open pistols-RDS, comps, big stick mags etc) is large enough that lower classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher classed Open shooters. |
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Quoted: The performance delta of a PCC in USPSA(shot on the same course of fire as Open pistols-RDS, comps, big stick mags etc) is large enough that lower classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher classed Open shooters. More accurately, the performance delta of a USPSA-optimized PCC is large enough that lower-classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher-classed shooters shooting USPSA-optimized Open handguns. But how self-defense use compares between someone shooting a USW-sized PCC versus someone shooting a carryable handgun is only somewhat related to that. |
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Quoted: More accurately, the performance delta of a USPSA-optimized PCC is large enough that lower-classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher-classed shooters shooting USPSA-optimized Open handguns. But how self-defense use compares between someone shooting a USW-sized PCC versus someone shooting a carryable handgun is only somewhat related to that.  Steel Challenge match, B&T 320 I shot a steel challenge match shortly after my B&T 320 USW got approved, with the crappy romeo 1 dot. Didnt have much time on the 320 as a pistol or in the USW chassis before I took this video. Because of that, this should be pretty equivalent to how your average gun owner would fare with something like the USW, since at the time I had two kids in diapers, wasnt dryfiring at all and hadnt shot a match other than steel challenge with a .22 in months. As my crappy performance shows, theres not a huge difference up close on big targets. But once you’re looking at smaller targets beyond 12 yards, even a non optimized pcc is easier to make fast (I know, not very fast) hits with at distance. Theres abaolutely a performance delta between pistols and even non competition optimized pccs/pdws. |
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Quoted: Nope, just a bullpup. Wouldnt consider a standard mk18 a type 4 either. Quoted: Quoted: guess the X95 would be a Type 4? Nope, just a bullpup. Wouldnt consider a standard mk18 a type 4 either. I'd consider the X95 SBR to be close. It's under 23" in OAL. That's right on the edge of being overly long though. Really OAL under 20" folded or otherwise seems to be a more reasonable cutoff. |
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Quoted:...I would suggest that the minimum standard for a useful PDW would be to seriously increase the probability and speed of a first round hit across all likely engagement ranges and increase the rate of controllable accurate fire across those ranges, as measured against an optimized EDC pistol, such as an iteration of the Roland Special concept. The performance delta of a PCC in USPSA(shot on the same course of fire as Open pistols-RDS, comps, big stick mags etc) is large enough that lower classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher classed Open shooters. I did not know about your second paragraph. Thank you for posting it. Knowing how gun games can get, how small are USPSA PCCs vs the PDW's discussed here? |
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Quoted: More accurately, the performance delta of a USPSA-optimized PCC is large enough that lower-classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher-classed shooters shooting USPSA-optimized Open handguns. But how self-defense use compares between someone shooting a USW-sized PCC versus someone shooting a carryable handgun is only somewhat related to that. Quoted: Quoted: The performance delta of a PCC in USPSA(shot on the same course of fire as Open pistols-RDS, comps, big stick mags etc) is large enough that lower classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher classed Open shooters. More accurately, the performance delta of a USPSA-optimized PCC is large enough that lower-classed PCC shooters can routinely defeat higher-classed shooters shooting USPSA-optimized Open handguns. But how self-defense use compares between someone shooting a USW-sized PCC versus someone shooting a carryable handgun is only somewhat related to that. The most common USPSA PCC is essentially a full sized AR15 carbine. FWIW it is scored "Minor" which either requires more accuracy in order to overcome the "Major" point value while maintaining the same speed, or greatly increased speed at the same accuracy, so the delta is even more demonstrative. Thinking out loud... I suppose the data would illustrate a continuum with iron sighted Service pistols on the left and lightweight, tuned, optically sighted 16 " carbines on the right. Accuracy, power(rifle cartridge wounding) and speed(the old DVC) would all go left to right. A Roland Special would be to the right of the iron sighted Service pistol and an Open pistol somewhat to the right of that...and the carbine quite a long way past that. Where does the Chassis style PCC fall on that continuum? How big is the trade-off in DVC for covert capability? For home defense or offensive use(military, LE pursuit/arrest, SHTF open rifle carry) I don't think it is worth it. For the Medium Spicy environment where there is a premium on discretion while still engaging with society it becomes more compelling. To what extent, I can't say. I've never fired one and no one that I've seen or read has provided more than general impressions about shooting them. It would be valuable to have skilled shooters comparing performance on known drills with metrics. Even the linked Brass Facts video doesn't say much at all about measured performance even though he argues the use case for them well enough. |
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Quoted: A Roland Special would be to the right of the iron sighted Service pistol and an Open pistol somewhat to the right of that...and the carbine quite a long way past that. Where does the Chassis style PCC fall on that continuum? How big is the trade-off in DVC for covert capability? For home defense or offensive use(military, LE pursuit/arrest, SHTF open rifle carry) I don't think it is worth it. For the Medium Spicy environment where there is a premium on discretion while still engaging with society it becomes more compelling. To what extent, I can't say. I've never fired one and no one that I've seen or read has provided more than general impressions about shooting them. It would be valuable to have skilled shooters comparing performance on known drills with metrics. Even the linked Brass Facts video doesn't say much at all about measured performance even though he argues the use case for them well enough. I have an SBR'ed G17L in a USW-G17 frame/stock (or well, I did have one but I sold it because it's dumb but I still have it in my possession until the form 4 goes through). Before I sold it I shot it a few times in PCC division and I didn't place much different than I would've done shooting the Carry Optics G17 I normally shot. In fact I'd say for most shots the stock was a hindrance. I suppose that if I had put more time into it that I'd probably get a little better at shooting the USW, but the whole rationale for a stocked pistol is that it's easier to shoot. There's a point at which the stock gets too small to really be useful, but where it still makes the gun too big to conceal easily on-body. The USW or similarly-sized pistol SBRs are smack dab right on top of that point. If you're going to conceal a gun in a bag, then the size limitations that on-body carry impose don't apply and you can use a bigger gun, which means a rifle action shooting a rifle cartridge (i.e. "type 4" in the OP) makes more sense. |
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Quoted: There's a point at which the stock gets too small to really be useful, but where it still makes the gun too big to conceal easily on-body. The USW or similarly-sized pistol SBRs are smack dab right on top of that point. If you're going to conceal a gun in a bag, then the size limitations that on-body carry impose don't apply and you can use a bigger gun, which means a rifle action shooting a rifle cartridge (i.e. "type 4" in the OP) makes more sense. I'm going to disagree with you slightly on the part in bold. Doesn't conceal under a tshirt if you're active because of the big beavertail, but the USW can absolutely be carried holstered and concealed under a light jacket or button up shirt. It's on the far end of the "larger and harder to conceal but easier to shoot than your edc" spectrum, and if I was going to carry one I would likely just carry it instead of a pistol. It's basically a pistol with an optional "enhance accuracy and range" feature. Where I think it would really shine is for someone like a school resource officer, who might be forced to engage down a long hallway, but needs a gun that they can carry around all day. That being said, I agree with you that the super small stocked chassis like the USW are barely an improvement over just a pistol, which is why I tried out the Flux as a better bag gun option, and I like it much more than the USW for several reasons. Again, I don't think there's a "wrong" answer here. Pick how you want to carry a pdw, what size and weight you're willing to put up with lugging around and what requirements you have for it and rock on. |
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Quoted: Has anyone tried the "Cheek Pistol" concept as shown by Rhett Neumayer of Demonstrated Concepts? With the right setups, this allows for a super short non-NFA or stockless or braceless pistol to be mounted and fired very quickly with serious accuracy. The technique allows an extremely compressed shooting mount with a split second first shot while maintaining balance and peripheral vision. He has used the technique with Kel Tec CP-33, 7.5" AR15s, MP5 clones and TP9s. I had forgotten about this. That cp33 cheek setup is a lot of shooting in a tiny package |
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Quoted: I had forgotten about this. That cp33 cheek setup is a lot of shooting in a tiny package Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone tried the "Cheek Pistol" concept as shown by Rhett Neumayer of Demonstrated Concepts? With the right setups, this allows for a super short non-NFA or stockless or braceless pistol to be mounted and fired very quickly with serious accuracy. The technique allows an extremely compressed shooting mount with a split second first shot while maintaining balance and peripheral vision. He has used the technique with Kel Tec CP-33, 7.5" AR15s, MP5 clones and TP9s. I had forgotten about this. That cp33 cheek setup is a lot of shooting in a tiny package It is very nearly ideal for that niche due to the combination of size, exact form factor, capacity and most importantly his technique. It's almost unique. They also range from finicky to marginally reliable and durable, with indifferent QC, and they are rimfire. The technique seems to be more broadly applicable with the AR-15 in pistol format in 5.56/.300. As a left eye dominant lefthander, I have hesitated to spend the money, though. |
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Quoted: Sig Rattler 5.5" barrel with 110gn 300blk Vmax ~ est 1900fps = 882 ft/lbs energy Glock 17 4.5" barrel Flux Raider with 115gn 9mm ~ est 1200fps = 368 ft/lbs energy While the Flux Raider config boasts significant size and weight advantages, the Sig Rattler boasts almost 2.5times more energy. Everything is a trade off I guess. This is a cool thread btw. Run the number with a G24/G35 in 357 Sig |
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Quoted: Quoted: Sig Rattler 5.5" barrel with 110gn 300blk Vmax ~ est 1900fps = 882 ft/lbs energy Glock 17 4.5" barrel Flux Raider with 115gn 9mm ~ est 1200fps = 368 ft/lbs energy While the Flux Raider config boasts significant size and weight advantages, the Sig Rattler boasts almost 2.5times more energy. Everything is a trade off I guess. This is a cool thread btw. Run the number with a G24/G35 in 357 Sig Or a .357 mag lever gun 
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/455820/IMG_5700_jpeg-3093920.JPG Flux glock brace and flashmag, can in silly long configuration https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/455820/IMG_5266_jpeg-3093922.JPG Flux glock, rattler suppressed, 14.5" SBR https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/455820/IMG_4476_jpeg-3093923.JPG Rattler compared to SBS 870. 12" barrel. Shorter and way more rounds on tap https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/455820/IMG_0640_jpeg-3093929.JPG Rattler vs 1911. Both cool, only one fits on my belt, but damn that's a small PDW https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/455820/IMG_5120_jpeg-3093930.JPG 18" AR at the tp for scale. Then 14.5, rattler, rattler pistol, flux. Even my small carry guns have dots, extending their effective range. I need a bingo patch |
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Quoted:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLiZeoIb1LQI shot a steel challenge match shortly after my B&T 320 USW got approved, with the crappy romeo 1 dot. Didnt have much time on the 320 as a pistol or in the USW chassis before I took this video. Because of that, this should be pretty equivalent to how your average gun owner would fare with something like the USW, since at the time I had two kids in diapers, wasnt dryfiring at all and hadnt shot a match other than steel challenge with a .22 in months. As my crappy performance shows, theres not a huge difference up close on big targets. But once you’re looking at smaller targets beyond 12 yards, even a non optimized pcc is easier to make fast (I know, not very fast) hits with at distance. Theres abaolutely a performance delta between pistols and even non competition optimized pccs/pdws. Thanks for posting that-helps make the point that stocked handguns aren’t a gimmick. They aren’t new either…. Artillery Luger anyone? |
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Quoted: Or a .357 mag lever gun Love mine. Light, handy, wouldnt raise as many eyebrows in loony ass clown world areas but still a very capable rifle. I need to get a threaded one. Cant bring myself to mess with my JM stamped Marlin, and I’m usually not sentimental at all about messing with guns. |