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Posted: 11/14/2022 10:19:18 AM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 11/14/2022 10:44:30 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:   Been following this all weekend Just saw them in Houston on the 29th. Prayers for the families. https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52496365387_930ee21d71_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52497403463_99ec24806c_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52497323900_5436648d5c_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52497323955_6a919a7176_b.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52464692161_5b9e2d31ff_b.jpg And one from 2019's WOH https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48938574843_b9b330615e_b.jpg When they first started the pearl harbor re-enactment they would actually touch down on that one wheel and go the length of the runway. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:00:16 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wasn't 9 o 9 attributed to getting the wrong fuel and crashing after takeoff? 909 had many maintenance errors that were amplified by the fact that the pilot was also doing maintenance and letting stuff slide. If he had done engine run ups before take off alone he would have never left the ground. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:05:25 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This pic is horrifying. Open in a separate window and zoom. You can see the right seater with his right arm up on the roof and his left grasping the sliding window/frame and looking out and back. I'm pretty sure that's just the metal around the window. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:14:18 AM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:18:40 AM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:28:27 AM EDT
[#7]
Not trying to be rude, but you guys are pretty sick looking for body parts in photos.
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:46:41 AM EDT
[#8]
Damn, RIP to those killed.
My sympathy to those that personally knew the deceased. Lord, guard and guide the men who fly… |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:50:31 AM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That photo was taken a fraction of a second after impact. Anything a human body is doing at that moment is involuntary and a result of the inertial forces of the impact. The crew probably hasn't even perceived that there is something occurring yet, much less be "hanging on". That may have been one of the three people on board besides the two pilots. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 11:51:25 AM EDT
[#10]
I don't really see any body parts but I'm also not really looking. However I did use AI to upscale the image by 6x for those that want a better look.
File size is too large to upload to the site. Here's a cropped version to zoom into the relevant parts. Edit: Hang on that link isn't giving the full res. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:00:49 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not trying to be rude, but you guys are pretty sick looking for body parts in photos. Not doing it to be sick and wasn't necessarily looking for body parts. There is definitely a curiosity about the mechanics of how wrecks occur and what happened to the crew. It helps people relate to just how tragic and devastating this crash was. If nothing else it tells us that at least 3 people died instantly with no suffering at all. The two B17 pilots and possibly another crewman didn't get that privilege as soon as those three, but I doubt they suffered either. I'm just glad it all happened quick. I doubt anyone felt any pain at all and 2 or 3 might have just had some pretty serious confusion for a second or less. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:06:00 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I don't really see any body parts but I'm also not really looking. However I did use AI to upscale the image by 6x for those that want a better look. File size is too large to upload to the site. Here's a cropped version to zoom into the relevant parts. Edit: Hang on that link isn't giving the full res. All I see for sure is debris. Seeing anything else is like seeing bigfoot in pics from Mars. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:08:19 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That was the theory when the crash happened. What actually happened was one guy that was trying to do too much, so his maintenance procedures started getting sloppy. There was also warning signs that were ignorantly dismissed the day of the crash. Reddit user Admiral Cloudberg writes pretty good crash summaries. Here’s his write up on the Nine O Nine crash: https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-last-mission-the-crash-of-the-b-17-nine-o-nine-5644e1c35a85 Edit: The article is worth reading just to learn about the why, how, and regulations imposed on the groups that fly warbirds. Thank you for the link. I appreciate the knowledge dropped in these threads. (MudEagle, OscarDeuce, Goodn and others) We'll also likely learn a lot about airshow procedures and deconfliction from this tragedy. If only it didn't come at such a price. I want to keep seeing these airplanes fly, and my questions and comments are meant in the vein of anticipating (and thereby, trying to counter) criticism from people who don't like these activities and who will try to shut these activities down. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:12:45 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All I see for sure is debris. Seeing anything else is like seeing bigfoot in pics from Mars. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the figure in the bright part of the image is someone in the cockpit. Appears to have his hand on the ceiling to brace, and it looks like they're wearing headphones which makes sense. I edited it just to make things more clear, that's why it looks odd. That shape definitely seems human-like and doesn't match what an unadulterated B17 looks like. That's pretty sad, honestly. Click To View Spoiler |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:15:34 PM EDT
[#15]
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:17:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The "poor airmanship" discussion could fill its own thread. Pilot inflating his experience and falsifying his hours. Complete lack of CRM in not identifying/verifying the engine. Flying the pattern into the dead engine(s). Flying the pattern at/below two engine Vmc. Attempting to go-around after hitting short. Just a master class in what not to do. And I say that as someone who has personally had my performance in a SAM threat reaction in Iraq used as an example of "what not to do" by the USAF Weapons School. :) Continuing my point about filling threads with information. Thank you. A question on the SAM incident. I am not asking about lessons learned (I expect they would be confidential information) and this really isn't the thread for it. But my question is, is such a cockup on your part typically career-limiting, like receiving a Letter of Reprimand (or the equivalent) would be? Or is just a teaching opportunity for everyone else? Thanks. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:42:44 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the figure in the bright part of the image is someone in the cockpit. Appears to have his hand on the ceiling to brace, and it looks like they're wearing headphones which makes sense. I edited it just to make things more clear, that's why it looks odd. That shape definitely seems human-like and doesn't match what an unadulterated B17 looks like. That's pretty sad, honestly. Closer look. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/253540/64513087-11423843-image-m-50_16683905800-2599700.JPG Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: All I see for sure is debris. Seeing anything else is like seeing bigfoot in pics from Mars. Unfortunately I'm pretty sure the figure in the bright part of the image is someone in the cockpit. Appears to have his hand on the ceiling to brace, and it looks like they're wearing headphones which makes sense. I edited it just to make things more clear, that's why it looks odd. That shape definitely seems human-like and doesn't match what an unadulterated B17 looks like. That's pretty sad, honestly. Closer look. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/253540/64513087-11423843-image-m-50_16683905800-2599700.JPG @CrimsonTideShooter Please put the pics behind a spoiler tag so people following this thread who knew the crew don't have to see it. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 12:58:48 PM EDT
[#18]
NTSB B-Roll: Dallas, Texas Mid Air Collision (11/13/22)
 NTSB B-Roll: Dallas, Texas Mid Air Collision (13/11/22) |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 1:04:01 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Appears to have his hand on the ceiling to brace, Again, this photo is taken fractions of a second after impact. A human has barely perceived that something is occurring at this point, much less being able to move one's arm into a position to brace against forces being experienced. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 1:10:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, this photo is taken fractions of a second after impact. A human has barely perceived that something is occurring at this point, much less being able to move one's arm into a position to brace against forces being experienced. He could have been waving, or preparing to wave since they were beginning the photo run at that moment. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 1:12:39 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, this photo is taken fractions of a second after impact. A human has barely perceived that something is occurring at this point, much less being able to move one's arm into a position to brace against forces being experienced. I do not understand the interest people have in analyzing these details, talking about 'energy transfer,' etc A terrible accident took place It was in no way survivable by anybody involved, much less the aircraft Being grateful that accepting the prior two points, there was no pain or suffering by anybody That ought to be enough Everything else outside of the NTSB investigation and lessons learned is just morbid rubbernecking IMO |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 1:13:29 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A question on the SAM incident. I am not asking about lessons learned (I expect they would be confidential information) and this really isn't the thread for it. But my question is, is such a cockup on your part typically career-limiting, like receiving a Letter of Reprimand (or the equivalent) would be? Or is just a teaching opportunity for everyone else? Thanks. No impact to career, just a learning opportunity. I actually teach that incident occasionally in warbird circles I'm in, as there are a lot of relevant lessons learned about judgment and decisionmaking leading up to the incident itself. For me, my performance was a wakeup call that caused me to refocus what I was and wasn't doing, and I had several other SAM and AAA events that were responded to quite differently afterward. It is that incident that is the subject of this book cover painting.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 1:13:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Terry Barker, picture posted earlier in this thread, was the co-pilot. It really sucks that the good die young and those that deserve it live to be 150.
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Posted: 11/14/2022 1:14:26 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Again, this photo is taken fractions of a second after impact. A human has barely perceived that something is occurring at this point, much less being able to move one's arm into a position to brace against forces being experienced. I would agree about the reaction time. But it's possible he was already in that position before the impact. It's also possible that its not a human at all. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 1:23:25 PM EDT
[#25]
From the CAF page this morning.
https://commemorativeairforce.org/news/names-of-the-aircrew-from-texas-raiders-and-the-kingcobra |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 2:08:43 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: My deepest condolences to all who knew the men involved in this tragic accident. I waited to post until the names involved were made public, and I thank God I didn't know any of them personally. As a kid in the 60's, I used to sit on the roof of our barn watching B-17's, B-24's and A-26's flying tree top level formations over my head spraying for mosquito's. I was a sponge for the WWII, Korea and Viet Nam pilots who taught me to fly. I sold my soul to be amongst these Great Men and their flying machines. Too many times I have been standing show center behind the Air Boss when something like this happens, Mid-air, G-Loc, CFIT you name it..... I have watched friends or people I was just talking to at the morning brief die in aviation accidents and this thread has brought back some awful suppressed visions and memories. All in all, this is wearing on me more than I thought it would. Now, I try my best not to get tagged to work airshow's (or accidents) anymore, although being a SME I'm not always successful. Someone has to train the new IIC's. Over the years, I've worked with founding members of ICAS and NDPER's (National Designated Pilot Examiner (NDPER) is designated a "National Resource", and is authorized by the FAA to provide check rides on a national basis) and many Regional Air Show Coordinators and the National Air Show Coordinator. I've worked a few warbird accidents, and a B-17 total hull loss as a matter of fact (no fatalities thank God) and as MudEagle has stated, it has gotten better. This may make some think I'm callous but in one way, the system worked, as no spectators were involved. I wouldn't be surprised the winds are shifting, bringing with them some major changes down the line. The winter brief I have scheduled next week with one of the Jet Demonstration Teams (for a show next year) will be interesting. Tonight, I'll raise a glass and toast those who have "Gone West". High Flight Oh, I have slipped the surly bonds of earth And danced the skies on laughter-silvered wings; Sunward I’ve climbed, and joined the tumbling mirth Of sun-split clouds ... and done a hundred things You have not dreamed of ... wheeled and soared and swung High in the sunlit silence. Hov’ring there, I’ve chased the shouting wind along, and flung My eager craft through footless halls of air. Up, up the long, delirious, burning blue I’ve topped the windswept heights with easy grace Where never lark, or even eagle flew. And, while with silent, lifting mind I’ve trod The high untrespassed sanctity of space Put out my hand, and touched the face of God. Fly Safe! |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 2:30:19 PM EDT
[#27]
 Attached File Attached File Attached FileMy condolences to the family and friends of the lost. You brought great joy to my families life over the course of multiple decades. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 2:35:38 PM EDT
[#28]
Prayers for everyone involved, very sad.
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Posted: 11/14/2022 2:39:47 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I will NOT be posting my enhanced photo here. I think more people should follow that initiative. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 2:41:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Initially, I thought that the left wing of the P-63 sliced the tail off the B-17, but now it appears that P-63 hit the fuselage dead center just behind the trailing edge of the wings (if not, a bit in front of the trailing edge). Is this correct?  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 2:55:25 PM EDT
[#31]
Prayers for the families, what a terrible tragedy.
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Posted: 11/14/2022 2:56:15 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Formation flying is a thing in GA. The rules basically just say that you must have advance permission from the PIC of the other aircraft to do it. Far 91.111. Some groups fly in loose formation into Oshkosh and land in pairs. IIRC there are some minimum experience and training requirements by the organizations to do it. The only reason that works (hell, the only reason Oshkosh works in general) is because, everyone is flying the same speed within their own category. GA airplanes have a NOTAMed speed (IIRC 90 kts) AND spacing, and form up on a very long line from the SW approaching Fisk, with controllers watching every airplane and waving them off or giving them turns as needed then vectoring them onto their final approaches. Warbirds have an approach from the north, and the big iron IIRC generally approaches from the east. If you tried to mix up GA, Warbirds, and big iron on one single approach, you WOULD have accidents every day. Condolences to the folks here who lost friends. I wish I had something else to give you.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: RIP to all involved. Very clearly a case where the P-63 pilot was belly up to, and blind on, the B-17....co-altitude....his turn circle was larger than that of the B-17....and smack. It is very clearly the P-63 pilot's fault. While I don't want to speak ill of the dead, just some observations from a former fighter/attack guy. In the military, flying formation is taken extremely seriously and demands extraordinary discipline, not only in maneuvering your aircraft in close proximity to others, but also in maintaining situational awareness and executing set pre-briefed procedures in the event that you go 'blind' on any member within your flight or those you may be maneuvering against (basic fighter maneuvers, for example). I have no idea whether the pilot of the P-63 was former/current military or straight civilian, but these types of formation 'gaggles' make me VERY nervous. I have a friend who is former military (SF type) but didn't learn to fly in the military, and now participates in civilian formation flying in small single engine aircraft. I have tried to warn him that even we military-trained guys F it up on occasion, and even if he maintains strict flight discipline....I wouldn't trust 95% of the average Joe Bagadonuts who is a straight civilian pilot to fly in close formation with me, especially when it is more than two aircraft. Bottom line, absolute tragedy and prayers to the crews family and friends. Fate is the hunter. There's a group of pilots in my area that I've seen on more than one occasion doing 2, 3, and sometimes 4-ship formation flights in dissimilar GA aircraft. Don't know their background or what the reason behind it. If I'm outside I'll stop and watch, especially when they're doing it over my neighborhood. I do always hope nobody screws up. Formation flying is a thing in GA. The rules basically just say that you must have advance permission from the PIC of the other aircraft to do it. Far 91.111. Some groups fly in loose formation into Oshkosh and land in pairs. IIRC there are some minimum experience and training requirements by the organizations to do it. The only reason that works (hell, the only reason Oshkosh works in general) is because, everyone is flying the same speed within their own category. GA airplanes have a NOTAMed speed (IIRC 90 kts) AND spacing, and form up on a very long line from the SW approaching Fisk, with controllers watching every airplane and waving them off or giving them turns as needed then vectoring them onto their final approaches. Warbirds have an approach from the north, and the big iron IIRC generally approaches from the east. If you tried to mix up GA, Warbirds, and big iron on one single approach, you WOULD have accidents every day. Condolences to the folks here who lost friends. I wish I had something else to give you. There is a group of 3 or 4 guys with warbirds here in Arkansas and you'll spot them flying in 3 and 4 bird simple formations on pretty afternoons. You can always hear them long before you can see them. Radials make a certain sound. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:14:47 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/274692/CFCE5862-5FF4-499D-B284-3DF0232F33A7_jpe-2599869.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/274692/4305066F-9B59-4903-B321-862CAF648624_jpe-2599870.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/274692/304B282D-1D3E-4BD9-99F3-D16CB872168D_jpe-2599871.JPG My condolences to the family and friends of the lost. You brought great joy to my families life over the course of multiple decades. Dan Ragan was a B-17 radio operator in the Korean war (10:37)  Texas Raiders B-17 bomber Iowa Mission 2022 |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:18:19 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/274692/CFCE5862-5FF4-499D-B284-3DF0232F33A7_jpe-2599869.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/274692/4305066F-9B59-4903-B321-862CAF648624_jpe-2599870.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/274692/304B282D-1D3E-4BD9-99F3-D16CB872168D_jpe-2599871.JPG My condolences to the family and friends of the lost. You brought great joy to my families life over the course of multiple decades. I'll have to dig around when I'm at my parents next, I likely have some pics of my Grandpa and I in front of Texas Raiders at Ellington. He was a welder at 1st Strategic Air Depot in England so he always liked to talk to the crew standing around at the airshows. Still just awful all the way around
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:19:27 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Initially, I thought that the left wing of the P-63 sliced the tail off the B-17, but now it appears that P-63 hit the fuselage dead center just behind the trailing edge of the wings (if not, a bit in front of the trailing edge). Is this correct? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/185708/EA140702-80BB-4991-998C-1D1266502F24_jpe-2599880.JPG It almost looked as if the P-63 sort of slid into the B-17 as opposed to ramming or slicing into it. Something akin to taking a turn too wide when driving. The fighter sure was making time compared to the B-17. Very tragic on all levels yet so interesting. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:22:11 PM EDT
[#36]
I dug thru my old slides and this may be the same airplane. 1977 Tora Tora Tora show at Oshkosh.
 Attached File |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:33:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think more people should follow that initiative. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I will NOT be posting my enhanced photo here. I think more people should follow that initiative. For Pete's sake. LOL at all the indignation. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:36:42 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I do not understand the interest people have in analyzing these details, talking about 'energy transfer,' etc A terrible accident took place It was in no way survivable by anybody involved, much less the aircraft Being grateful that accepting the prior two points, there was no pain or suffering by anybody That ought to be enough Everything else outside of the NTSB investigation and lessons learned is just morbid rubbernecking IMO +1 Why do some here insist on analyzing these things as a means of rationalizing and explaining details that don’t matter to a normal person? Two planes collided, people died, friends and families lost loved ones. Move on. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:36:55 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It almost looked as if the P-63 sort of slid into the B-17 as opposed to ramming or slicing into it. Something akin to taking a turn too wide when driving. The fighter sure was making time compared to the B-17. Very tragic on all levels yet so interesting. You should write the families and tell them how interesting you find it. Perhaps the other internet sluths here can send them photos of their loved ones being ejected from the plane. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:42:18 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I would agree about the reaction time. But it's possible he was already in that position before the impact. It's also possible that its not a human at all. Major impact from behind and down would easily cause the co pilots arm to be in that position, if that is the copilot. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:43:02 PM EDT
[#41]
Can you imagine what those pilots (and crew) in the trailing bomber(s) witnessed?
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:44:08 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For Pete's sake. LOL at all the indignation. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I will NOT be posting my enhanced photo here. I think more people should follow that initiative. For Pete's sake. LOL at all the indignation. It serves no investigatory purpose and only fulfills some ghoulish impulses that are disrespectful both to the deceased, and to their friends and coworkers in this thread. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:50:36 PM EDT
[#43]
Absolutely horrible. Prayers for their friends and family.
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:51:02 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It serves no investigatory purpose and only fulfills some ghoulish impulses that are disrespectful both to the deceased, and to their friends and coworkers in this thread. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I will NOT be posting my enhanced photo here. I think more people should follow that initiative. For Pete's sake. LOL at all the indignation. It serves no investigatory purpose and only fulfills some ghoulish impulses that are disrespectful both to the deceased, and to their friends and coworkers in this thread. Yep. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:56:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It serves no investigatory purpose and only fulfills some ghoulish impulses that are disrespectful both to the deceased, and to their friends and coworkers in this thread. Remember a few years ago when members kept pointing out pieces of a victim’s brains flying out at another air show accident while the rest of us were looking at the status of the control surfaces? |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 3:59:25 PM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 11/14/2022 4:24:52 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: +1 Why do some here insist on analyzing these things as a means of rationalizing and explaining details that don’t matter to a normal person? Two planes collided, people died, friends and families lost loved ones. Move on. Trying to prevent it from happening again, maybe to one of us who have or are still flying airshows. Maybe I can keep another friend from being killed |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 4:25:45 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Remember a few years ago when members kept pointing out pieces of a victim's brains flying out at another air show accident while the rest of us were looking at the status of the control surfaces? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It serves no investigatory purpose and only fulfills some ghoulish impulses that are disrespectful both to the deceased, and to their friends and coworkers in this thread. Remember a few years ago when members kept pointing out pieces of a victim's brains flying out at another air show accident while the rest of us were looking at the status of the control surfaces? |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 4:27:55 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Trying to prevent it from happening again, maybe to one of us who have or are still flying airshows. I think these comments are in regards to these guys going frame by frame after the impact. I can't think of anything to be learned, there. |
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Posted: 11/14/2022 4:34:41 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryI used to work for Delta, in that very spot ("99-"00). Very eerie watching this, so sad. |
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