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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:45:45 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I would focus more on the free-float aspect of these rifles than full auto, although auto can have a limited usefulness for a trained shooter. Mag dumps like Russian sub machine gun battalions is not what we are talking about here. Preach! |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:45:53 PM EDT
[#2]
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Come on now. You know the military's mentality. A rifle is "never" clean. Troops will not be able to save any time on this system with cleaning. They'll still be cleaning the fuck out of those things and getting the white glove bullshit. If you shoot any piston gun, like an AK47/74. You'll notice that you still gun a TON of carbon inside the receiver and action. I got like a milimeter or 2 of carbon inside my AK74. If I put my finger inside that thing, it comes out black. Or the 249 and 240, both got real dirty inside the receiver and on the bolt carrier assembly. Piston guns are NOT cleaner than "DI" rifles like the M16 family. Only thing I can say about that is that the operating system on an AK or 240/249 is a long stroke piston, so you have all the gas from the barrel being about to flow through the gas tubes and into the receivers as the BCGs cycle. Short stroke piston guns don't have that going on, since you're using the gas to smack a piston into another piston. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:46:14 PM EDT
[#3]
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Marines are sick of the M16 and M4. they are sick of countless hours cleaning a DI system. Is it really better? Maybe maybe not. I could care less either way, one thing I like is the young Marines being able to clean their rifles in 15 mins vs 1-2 hours. It takes longer to clean the upper receiver, BCG, and now gas block, plug and piston assembly. It all makes sense now. Gotta keep that blotter report down with extra hours in weapons maintenance. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:53:15 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Made in USA. HK is turning up manufacturing here, in Georgia. Where? I might like to submit an application! |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:53:33 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Only thing I can say about that is that the operating system on an AK or 240/249 is a long stroke piston, so you have all the gas from the barrel being about to flow through the gas tubes and into the receivers as the BCGs cycle. Short stroke piston guns don't have that going on, since you're using the gas to smack a piston into another piston. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Come on now. You know the military's mentality. A rifle is "never" clean. Troops will not be able to save any time on this system with cleaning. They'll still be cleaning the fuck out of those things and getting the white glove bullshit. If you shoot any piston gun, like an AK47/74. You'll notice that you still gun a TON of carbon inside the receiver and action. I got like a milimeter or 2 of carbon inside my AK74. If I put my finger inside that thing, it comes out black. Or the 249 and 240, both got real dirty inside the receiver and on the bolt carrier assembly. Piston guns are NOT cleaner than "DI" rifles like the M16 family. Only thing I can say about that is that the operating system on an AK or 240/249 is a long stroke piston, so you have all the gas from the barrel being about to flow through the gas tubes and into the receivers as the BCGs cycle. Short stroke piston guns don't have that going on, since you're using the gas to smack a piston into another piston. Cleaning external piston designs and their gas blocks is a lot of fun. Who was always the last soldier to be done cleaning his weapon? SAW and 240 gunners. Ever had to clean a FAL in the field? Real easy, right? Nope Biggest problem with the SAW is that it is an AK at heart-beats itself to pieces with early receiver wear, critical dimensions stretched this way and that, gas tubes eroded, garbage. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:55:12 PM EDT
[#6]
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Tell it to the Marines. They did, in fact, replace the 200-rd LMG in USMC rifle squads with a 30-rd rifle. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The M27 replaced the M249 in USMC rifle squads. Again, a 30rd rifle is not a replacement for a 200rd LMG. Tell it to the Marines. They did, in fact, replace the 200-rd LMG in USMC rifle squads with a 30-rd rifle. As a former USMC 0311/SAWgunner I think there are situations where a belt fed is extremely valuable in combat. I was glad to be one and kind of concerned about the lack of them in the current line units being used. Maybe with the influx of the IAR we will see the return or the 249 for the fire team |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:56:41 PM EDT
[#7]
M4A1 : 7.49lb
M27 : 7.9lb Yeah I would take the M4 if I had a choice. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 7:58:33 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So maybe the leadership can pull its collective head out of its ass and stop that dumb shit. The M4's sure as shit don't need it, and all it does is give SNCO's wood and kill parts faster. lol that's the last thing that's going to happen. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:01:50 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Marines are sick of the M16 and M4. they are sick of countless hours cleaning a DI system. Is it really better? Maybe maybe not. I could care less either way, one thing I like is the young Marines being able to clean their rifles in 15 mins vs 1-2 hours. But scrubbing off anodizing is hard yo |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:02:10 PM EDT
[#10]
This RFI is geared towards replacing SAWs in the Rifle Squads, which is why the number is 11,000 and not tens of thousands.
Some of you in this thread don't seem to be capable of addition and subtraction, let alone basic analysis of the numbers. There are way more Marines in the various commands in Infantry Battalions than 11,000. There are 32 Marine Infantry Battalions folks by my count. A Marine Infantry Squad has 3 Fire Teams. This number only makes sense for SAWs or DMs, and they don't seem to have doctrine yet for DMs, so that leaves SAWs, which is what they have been talking about using the IAR for. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:03:31 PM EDT
[#11]
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Couldn't possibly fix that. Nope. Totally fucking impossible. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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M249 barrels are CHF and double hard chrome lined. The M4A1 has a button rifled chrome lined barrel. Couldn't possibly fix that. Nope. Totally fucking impossible. I have close to 10k rounds through my PSA chf FN barrel on my M4 clone. Still 2moa. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:06:02 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
But scrubbing off anodizing is hard yo Oh God that reminds me of a funny story... right after we were issued our actual rifles in Basic we had to clean themy, for what seemed like 3 hours or so.. finally the Drill Sergeants start to look them over and this one idiot was all proud because he got his whole BCG clean...so much cleaner than everyone else's, so clean that there wasn't any anodizing left on it!!! I was all  HOW THE FUCK? He got a quick education on how he just ruined it....this was 2005 so before the Army went completely soft. I almost felt bad for the guy.
I honestly thought the DS was about to either stroke out or hit the kid. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:06:06 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M4A1 : 7.49lb M27 : 7.9lb Yeah I would take the M4 if I had a choice. You would give up more reliability and better accuracy and capability for more sustained fire over half a pound? |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:09:54 PM EDT
[#14]
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You would give up more reliability and better accuracy and capability for more sustained fire over half a pound? For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. I find it funny everyone insults me when the Army just adopted the H&K 417 to replace the KAC M110 and now the Marines are planning on replacing the M4 with the HK416. Yet I'm an idiot for not seeing the superiority of the M4! |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:12:39 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You would give up more reliability and better accuracy and capability for more sustained fire over half a pound? For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. 
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:12:44 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Oh God that reminds me of a funny story... right after we were issued our actual rifles in Basic we had to clean themy, for what seemed like 3 hours or so.. finally the Drill Sergeants start to look them over and this one idiot was all proud because he got his whole BCG clean...so much cleaner than everyone else's, so clean that there wasn't any anodizing left on it!!! I was all HOW THE FUCK? He got a quick education on how he just ruined it....this was 2005 so before the Army went completely soft. I almost felt bad for the guy.
I honestly thought the DS was about to either stroke out or hit the kid. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
But scrubbing off anodizing is hard yo Oh God that reminds me of a funny story... right after we were issued our actual rifles in Basic we had to clean themy, for what seemed like 3 hours or so.. finally the Drill Sergeants start to look them over and this one idiot was all proud because he got his whole BCG clean...so much cleaner than everyone else's, so clean that there wasn't any anodizing left on it!!! I was all HOW THE FUCK? He got a quick education on how he just ruined it....this was 2005 so before the Army went completely soft. I almost felt bad for the guy.
I honestly thought the DS was about to either stroke out or hit the kid. I don't know what's more magic. That someone scrubbed anodizing off a bcg (did you mean parkerizing?) Or that someone named Oldarmy was a boot in 05. 
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:13:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You would give up more reliability and better accuracy and capability for more sustained fire over half a pound? Yes, the M4 is adequate, and lighter. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:15:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't know what's more magic. That someone scrubbed anodizing off a bcg (did you mean parkerizing?) Or that someone named Oldarmy was a boot in 05. Okay you got me parkerizing. The screen name will be fitting given enough time. Still I wonder how the fuck he did that with the cleaning kits we had. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:19:31 PM EDT
[#19]
For everyone that thinks the HK416 is a panacea of problem-solving, it has created more problems than most know, some of which have been addressed by the HK416A2, HK416A3, and HK416A5.
One of the latest band-aids for problems you see with an external piston gun and the instantaneous violent carrier inertia is a disconnector protective basket for extreme hammer slap against the disconnector tail. By going with a 1920s-era (at best) external piston design, you create a design problem the internal expansion system addressed, in addition to regressing back to off-axis reciprocating mass. HK tries to tame this with a heavier carrier, heavier buffer, and higher action spring rate-all of which have 2nd and 3rd order effects on the gun and ancillary systems. But hey, why stop when you're on a winning streak of SVT-style piston insanity? I would not purposely deploy with this rifle for dismounted infantry patrolling. For short-duration DA missions with a little bird and crash hawks waiting to pick you up, you won't be seeing the same level of exposure to dust and sand, and with a budget that allows one to toss uppers and slap on new ones, or even frequent replacement of entire guns, the relevancy for the Marines is not there at all. When these little band-aids start rearing their heads as the years rack up, armorers are going to be wondering what was going on here. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:21:15 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Okay you got me parkerizing. The screen name will be fitting given enough time. Still I wonder how the fuck he did that with the cleaning kits we had. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't know what's more magic. That someone scrubbed anodizing off a bcg (did you mean parkerizing?) Or that someone named Oldarmy was a boot in 05. Okay you got me parkerizing. The screen name will be fitting given enough time. Still I wonder how the fuck he did that with the cleaning kits we had. Just busting your chops man 
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:22:09 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
M27 ain't either, not with M855A1 nor Mk318. They'll go beyond 4 MOA before 20K rounds when you're doing a lot of automatic fire. Am I the only one who remembers that the XM8 trials and the ICC were rigged against the M4? They had brand new rifles with newly designed magazines, competing against previously-issued M4 carbines with older magazines. Not to mention, their standards of maintenance were "as little lube as possible" which is not SOP for the M4 carbine. Finally, a lot of the stoppages were operator-induced, since dipshits did not understand the M4's burst FCG and counted trigger resets as stoppages. IE, fire the last round in the gun on burst, then when you reload and pull the trigger, the gun will not fire three rounds because the burst mechanism has not fully reset. Whichever shitbird jackass came up with the burst trigger can eat a dick. Worst thing they ever did to the M16. Why is it every time the M4 finishes last in trials it's rigged? Have the Marine Corps been rigging the M16 and M4 for the past 10 years in Afghanistan? Because according to Gunner Wade when he was on here he came out and said the M27 has far better reliability and durability. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:24:12 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For everyone that thinks the HK416 is a panacea of problem-solving, it has created more problems than most know, some of which have been addressed by the HK416A2, HK416A3, and HK416A5. One of the latest band-aids for problems you see with an external piston gun and the instantaneous violent carrier inertia is a disconnector protective basket for extreme hammer slap against the disconnector tail. By going with a 1920s-era (at best) external piston design, you create a design problem the internal expansion system addressed, in addition to regressing back to off-axis reciprocating mass. HK tries to tame this with a heavier carrier, heavier buffer, and higher action spring rate-all of which have 2nd and 3rd order effects on the gun and ancillary systems. But hey, why stop when you're on a winning streak of SVT-style piston insanity? I would not purposely deploy with this rifle for dismounted infantry patrolling. For short-duration DA missions with a little bird and crash hawks waiting to pick you up, you won't be seeing the same level of exposure to dust and sand, and with a budget that allows one to toss uppers and slap on new ones, or even frequent replacement of entire guns, the relevancy for the Marines is not there at all. When these little band-aids start rearing their heads as the years rack up, armorers are going to be wondering what was going on here. Interesting I think that if we put in geiselle triggers a DD omega rails we'd be 90% there. I know the taper pins can bulge barrels and the fsb can hinder IR lasers but shit we're almost there with easy drop in parts. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:24:22 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For everyone that thinks the HK416 is a panacea of problem-solving, it has created more problems than most know, some of which have been addressed by the HK416A2, HK416A3, and HK416A5. One of the latest band-aids for problems you see with an external piston gun and the instantaneous violent carrier inertia is a disconnector protective basket for extreme hammer slap against the disconnector tail. By going with a 1920s-era (at best) external piston design, you create a design problem the internal expansion system addressed, in addition to regressing back to off-axis reciprocating mass. HK tries to tame this with a heavier carrier, heavier buffer, and higher action spring rate-all of which have 2nd and 3rd order effects on the gun and ancillary systems. But hey, why stop when you're on a winning streak of SVT-style piston insanity? I would not purposely deploy with this rifle for dismounted infantry patrolling. For short-duration DA missions with a little bird and crash hawks waiting to pick you up, you won't be seeing the same level of exposure to dust and sand, and with a budget that allows one to toss uppers and slap on new ones, or even frequent replacement of entire guns, the relevancy for the Marines is not there at all. When these little band-aids start rearing their heads as the years rack up, armorers are going to be wondering what was going on here. And this is why the 416 is referred to as an abortion of a design. 
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:24:50 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For everyone that thinks the HK416 is a panacea of problem-solving, it has created more problems than most know, some of which have been addressed by the HK416A2, HK416A3, and HK416A5. One of the latest band-aids for problems you see with an external piston gun and the instantaneous violent carrier inertia is a disconnector protective basket for extreme hammer slap against the disconnector tail. By going with a 1920s-era (at best) external piston design, you create a design problem the internal expansion system addressed, in addition to regressing back to off-axis reciprocating mass. HK tries to tame this with a heavier carrier, heavier buffer, and higher action spring rate-all of which have 2nd and 3rd order effects on the gun and ancillary systems. But hey, why stop when you're on a winning streak of SVT-style piston insanity? I would not purposely deploy with this rifle for dismounted infantry patrolling. For short-duration DA missions with a little bird and crash hawks waiting to pick you up, you won't be seeing the same level of exposure to dust and sand, and with a budget that allows one to toss uppers and slap on new ones, or even frequent replacement of entire guns, the relevancy for the Marines is not there at all. When these little band-aids start rearing their heads as the years rack up, armorers are going to be wondering what was going on here. Norway has been having no problems with their rifles since the initial AGP was fixed. Arctic 1 posted a lot of his 416 over his 4 years in the Norwegian military on other sites. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:29:08 PM EDT
[#25]
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Where? I might like to submit an application! Columbus, GA Sir. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:33:23 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Columbus, GA Sir. I'm excited for what this means for civilian HK weapons. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:34:39 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Yeah, I think this is a good starting place: http://coresurvival.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/75th-RGR-D-Co.-2nd-BTN-side-profile-of-HS-5.jpg Replace the trigger and I believe the DD rail weights a bit less. Remove fixed front sight because they're issued ACOGs, throw on a cheap back up sight. Think it still allows for an M203 or M320 to be attached to. Maybe change the barrel to, but I believe the USMC still uses the M203 so they will probably want to keep the notch in the barrel? Anyways, seems like most of the advantages of the M27 over the standard issue M4 can be applied as an upgrade fairly easily. Hey, Elcans! Those are way more practical than the C79A2 the Canadian Army uses. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:37:48 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why is it every time the M4 finishes last in trials it's rigged? Have the Marine Corps been rigging the M16 and M4 for the past 10 years in Afghanistan? Because according to Gunner Wade when he was on here he came out and said the M27 has far better reliability and durability. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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M27 ain't either, not with M855A1 nor Mk318. They'll go beyond 4 MOA before 20K rounds when you're doing a lot of automatic fire. Am I the only one who remembers that the XM8 trials and the ICC were rigged against the M4? They had brand new rifles with newly designed magazines, competing against previously-issued M4 carbines with older magazines. Not to mention, their standards of maintenance were "as little lube as possible" which is not SOP for the M4 carbine. Finally, a lot of the stoppages were operator-induced, since dipshits did not understand the M4's burst FCG and counted trigger resets as stoppages. IE, fire the last round in the gun on burst, then when you reload and pull the trigger, the gun will not fire three rounds because the burst mechanism has not fully reset. Whichever shitbird jackass came up with the burst trigger can eat a dick. Worst thing they ever did to the M16. Why is it every time the M4 finishes last in trials it's rigged? Have the Marine Corps been rigging the M16 and M4 for the past 10 years in Afghanistan? Because according to Gunner Wade when he was on here he came out and said the M27 has far better reliability and durability. It hasn't been every time, but the XM8 and ICC trials, whose results you drew upon earlier, were stacked against the M4. When dumbasses call the trigger reset a malfunction, that is improper testing, because the weapon did not malfunction. Comparing older rifles that have been kicking around for five to ten years against brand-new rifles is disingenuous at best. 90% of problems with M4's and M16's are magazine-related, since the Army and USMC treat mags like they're worth their weight in gold. The Corps is now issuing Gen 3 Pmags exclusively, so I'm willing to bet there will be far fewer malfunctions reported. Wade is pushing the M27 because it's easier to get that made standard-issue than it would be to properly upgrade the M4 to have the same features. And that's even considering the fact that the M27 is more expensive, both in per-rifle and maintenance costs. That's because military procurement is retarded. Switching to the M27 is a bad move, because then you will run into issues with it ten or twenty years from now; the kind of issues that we are already aware of in regards to the M4. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:38:21 PM EDT
[#29]
In before the arfriots
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:42:26 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. I find it funny everyone insults me when the Army just adopted the H&K 417 to replace the KAC M110 and now the Marines are planning on replacing the M4 with the HK416. Yet I'm an idiot for not seeing the superiority of the M4! Quote HistoryQuoted:
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You would give up more reliability and better accuracy and capability for more sustained fire over half a pound? For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. I find it funny everyone insults me when the Army just adopted the H&K 417 to replace the KAC M110 and now the Marines are planning on replacing the M4 with the HK416. Yet I'm an idiot for not seeing the superiority of the M4! You insult yourself with these kinds of statements. How many Infantrymen in a USMC Infantry Battalion? How many USMC Infantry battalions? 1/1 2/1 3/1 1/2 2/2 3/2 1/3 2/3 3/3 1/4 2/4 3/4 1/5 2/5 3/5 1/6 2/6 3/6 1/7 2/7 3/7 1/8 2/8 3/8 That's just the active units. Please explain to me how 11,000 rifles will be used by these 24 different active duty USMC Infantry battalions. On to the HK417 abortion. It didn't win their competition because of the gun. The Army's record for rifle competitions is abysmal, if you study any of the history. We would never have gotten the AR15 if it weren't for direct Presidential and SECDEF involvement, and then they still did everything in their power to sabotage the AR15 before, during, and after adoption, to include sending rifles to Vietnam with cartridges loaded with ball propellant that they knew caused the guns to malfunction, after proofing them with the original extruded propellant cartridges it was designed around. They also mis-handled the M110 so poorly by requiring HPT on the bolts, against the recommendations of everyone with a brain, that you actually see M110 bolts shearing lugs, whereas you just didn't see this with the SR25, and why the units that have the COTS authority still buy SR25s from KAC without M110 TDP specs. So your arguments are based on a fundamental misunderstanding or ignorance of USMC force structure, and the premise that the Army makes good decisions with its rifle competitions, as long as HK is the beneficiary. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:46:41 PM EDT
[#31]
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You insult yourself with these kinds of statements. How many Infantrymen in a USMC Infantry Battalion? How many USMC Infantry battalions? 1/1 2/1 3/1 1/2 2/2 3/2 1/3 2/3 3/3 1/4 2/4 3/4 1/5 2/5 3/5 1/6 2/6 3/6 1/7 2/7 3/7 1/8 2/8 3/8 That's just the active units. Please explain to me how 11,000 rifles will be used by these 24 different active duty USMC Infantry battalions. On to the HK417 abortion. It didn't win their competition because of the gun. The Army's record for rifle competitions is abysmal, if you study any of the history. We would never have gotten the AR15 if it weren't for direct Presidential and SECDEF involvement, and then they still did everything in their power to sabotage the AR15 before, during, and after adoption, to include sending rifles to Vietnam with cartridges loaded with ball propellant that they knew caused the guns to malfunction, after proofing them with the original extruded propellant cartridges it was designed around. They also mis-handled the M110 so poorly by requiring HPT on the bolts, against the recommendations of everyone with a brain, that you actually see M110 bolts shearing lugs, whereas you just didn't see this with the SR25, and why the units that have the COTS authority still buy SR25s from KAC without M110 TDP specs. So your arguments are based on a fundamental misunderstanding or ignorance of USMC force structure, and the premise that the Army makes good decisions with its rifle competitions, as long as HK is the beneficiary. I have a feeling once the M110A1 comes online the units procuring COSTS KAC SR-25 will likely stop, just like how if the 416 replaces the M4 I doubt SOCOM would say "nah were keeping our M4A1s and SR-25ECC s". |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:47:16 PM EDT
[#32]
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Why is it every time the M4 finishes last in trials it's rigged? Have the Marine Corps been rigging the M16 and M4 for the past 10 years in Afghanistan? Because according to Gunner Wade when he was on here he came out and said the M27 has far better reliability and durability. It's because people are lying unless what they have written agrees with what the person has programmed himself to believe. Bro, you take a lot of heat here. You put the target on voluntarily, but that's beside the point. Many have accurately predicted this, and those persons still have a full hand of nostradamus cards to play, and the crystal ball isn't looking good for DI. For what it's worth, I remember from threads months/years ago, you defended the DI system vigorously. We boxed on that a few times. There had to be some process of discovery that led you to this conclusion. I'm wondering what it was and how it came about. FWIW, I give you respect for being able to set down a tremendous amount of proclivity and prejudice, for doing your own research and study and standing by the conclusion you reached. Just curious about what you saw out the window on the journey to the actual today. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:48:16 PM EDT
[#33]
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You insult yourself with these kinds of statements. How many Infantrymen in a USMC Infantry Battalion? How many USMC Infantry battalions? 1/1 2/1 3/1 1/2 2/2 3/2 1/3 2/3 3/3 1/4 2/4 3/4 1/5 2/5 3/5 1/6 2/6 3/6 1/7 2/7 3/7 1/8 2/8 3/8 That's just the active units. Please explain to me how 11,000 rifles will be used by these 24 different active duty USMC Infantry battalions. On to the HK417 abortion. It didn't win their competition because of the gun. The Army's record for rifle competitions is abysmal, if you study any of the history. We would never have gotten the AR15 if it weren't for direct Presidential and SECDEF involvement, and then they still did everything in their power to sabotage the AR15 before, during, and after adoption, to include sending rifles to Vietnam with cartridges loaded with ball propellant that they knew caused the guns to malfunction, after proofing them with the original extruded propellant cartridges it was designed around. They also mis-handled the M110 so poorly by requiring HPT on the bolts, against the recommendations of everyone with a brain, that you actually see M110 bolts shearing lugs, whereas you just didn't see this with the SR25, and why the units that have the COTS authority still buy SR25s from KAC without M110 TDP specs. So your arguments are based on a fundamental misunderstanding or ignorance of USMC force structure, and the premise that the Army makes good decisions with its rifle competitions, as long as HK is the beneficiary. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You would give up more reliability and better accuracy and capability for more sustained fire over half a pound? For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. I find it funny everyone insults me when the Army just adopted the H&K 417 to replace the KAC M110 and now the Marines are planning on replacing the M4 with the HK416. Yet I'm an idiot for not seeing the superiority of the M4! You insult yourself with these kinds of statements. How many Infantrymen in a USMC Infantry Battalion? How many USMC Infantry battalions? 1/1 2/1 3/1 1/2 2/2 3/2 1/3 2/3 3/3 1/4 2/4 3/4 1/5 2/5 3/5 1/6 2/6 3/6 1/7 2/7 3/7 1/8 2/8 3/8 That's just the active units. Please explain to me how 11,000 rifles will be used by these 24 different active duty USMC Infantry battalions. On to the HK417 abortion. It didn't win their competition because of the gun. The Army's record for rifle competitions is abysmal, if you study any of the history. We would never have gotten the AR15 if it weren't for direct Presidential and SECDEF involvement, and then they still did everything in their power to sabotage the AR15 before, during, and after adoption, to include sending rifles to Vietnam with cartridges loaded with ball propellant that they knew caused the guns to malfunction, after proofing them with the original extruded propellant cartridges it was designed around. They also mis-handled the M110 so poorly by requiring HPT on the bolts, against the recommendations of everyone with a brain, that you actually see M110 bolts shearing lugs, whereas you just didn't see this with the SR25, and why the units that have the COTS authority still buy SR25s from KAC without M110 TDP specs. So your arguments are based on a fundamental misunderstanding or ignorance of USMC force structure, and the premise that the Army makes good decisions with its rifle competitions, as long as HK is the beneficiary. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:48:45 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
ITT we learn who missed the epic thread with SME input. Link? |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:48:50 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. I find it funny everyone insults me when the Army just adopted the H&K 417 to replace the KAC M110 and now the Marines are planning on replacing the M4 with the HK416. Yet I'm an idiot for not seeing the superiority of the M4! We've been over this. The military does not pick weapons based on what's best. It picks them based on ignorant officer decisions, factory districts and backroom deals. The M27 fixes a couple small issues with the M4 and replaces them with its own issues. It's not an ubergun, it's just another in a long line of slightly different designs that the manufacturer wants you to believe is better than blowjobs. Do you work for HK or something? |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:55:13 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Link? got nuked |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:55:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Tell it to the Marines. They did, in fact, replace the 200-rd LMG in USMC rifle squads with a 30-rd rifle. No, they didn't. IAR was the issued gun, but we took 249's to every range and deployment we went on. The state of our 249's made the IAR the only option. 2/50 worked in our company. Former 0311 |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:56:48 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Norway has been having no problems with their rifles since the initial AGP was fixed. Arctic 1 posted a lot of his 416 over his 4 years in the Norwegian military on other sites. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For everyone that thinks the HK416 is a panacea of problem-solving, it has created more problems than most know, some of which have been addressed by the HK416A2, HK416A3, and HK416A5. One of the latest band-aids for problems you see with an external piston gun and the instantaneous violent carrier inertia is a disconnector protective basket for extreme hammer slap against the disconnector tail. By going with a 1920s-era (at best) external piston design, you create a design problem the internal expansion system addressed, in addition to regressing back to off-axis reciprocating mass. HK tries to tame this with a heavier carrier, heavier buffer, and higher action spring rate-all of which have 2nd and 3rd order effects on the gun and ancillary systems. But hey, why stop when you're on a winning streak of SVT-style piston insanity? I would not purposely deploy with this rifle for dismounted infantry patrolling. For short-duration DA missions with a little bird and crash hawks waiting to pick you up, you won't be seeing the same level of exposure to dust and sand, and with a budget that allows one to toss uppers and slap on new ones, or even frequent replacement of entire guns, the relevancy for the Marines is not there at all. When these little band-aids start rearing their heads as the years rack up, armorers are going to be wondering what was going on here. Norway has been having no problems with their rifles since the initial AGP was fixed. Arctic 1 posted a lot of his 416 over his 4 years in the Norwegian military on other sites. Nordic Battle Group in Afghanistan had catastrophic failures with brand new HK416s. The design does not do well with high sand/dust environments in the real world because you just placed one of the critical components outside of the protective enclosure of the upper receiver. Congrats on making the M4 into 8x the cost with an SVT-38 abortion of an operating system. Bier all around, Americans got the bill, ha ha! Danes told me they preferred pulling the FCG out of the 416 and dropping into a better carbine, the C8, no problems. Colt Canada engineers refer to the 416 as a total abortion, with features that require more features to fix the problems those features created. The biggest design flaw of an external piston system that can't be ignored is that you violently and instantaneously power up the op rod with gas, which immediately begins to move the carrier. In the Stoner internal expansion system, the gas has to flow into the carrier/bolt/piston chamber, and fill the volume of that chamber to generate inertia, which buys you some precious fractions of a second of time while the case rebounds from obturation. Now you see why the 416 has the carrier, buffer, and spring weights that it does, which now increase return-to-battery stroke impact on the barrel extension, which then requires a heavier buffer to counter carrier bounce on automatic, which requires more gas. More gas you say? Lets open the port, but then add an adjustable regulator. More gas powers up the face of the piston with more volume per time, increasing carrier inertia again, requiring more weights, higher spring rate. More spring rate increases carrier velocity on the return stroke, increasing carrier bounce. Guys are complaining about barrel weight, so they want a lighter barrel. Oh, and they're going to suppress too. So sad |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:58:24 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Link? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
ITT we learn who missed the epic thread with SME input. Link? Too long; can't read version the IAR is being pushed because it works, and works within the realm of how the military gets stuff. No other want, wish or "that's dumb it would be easier to ____" pet idea is, will, or can be implemented. IAR is the path of least resistance. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 8:59:07 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a feeling once the M110A1 comes online the units procuring COSTS KAC SR-25 will likely stop, just like how if the 416 replaces the M4 I doubt SOCOM would say "nah were keeping our M4A1s and SR-25ECC s". Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
You insult yourself with these kinds of statements. How many Infantrymen in a USMC Infantry Battalion? How many USMC Infantry battalions? 1/1 2/1 3/1 1/2 2/2 3/2 1/3 2/3 3/3 1/4 2/4 3/4 1/5 2/5 3/5 1/6 2/6 3/6 1/7 2/7 3/7 1/8 2/8 3/8 That's just the active units. Please explain to me how 11,000 rifles will be used by these 24 different active duty USMC Infantry battalions. On to the HK417 abortion. It didn't win their competition because of the gun. The Army's record for rifle competitions is abysmal, if you study any of the history. We would never have gotten the AR15 if it weren't for direct Presidential and SECDEF involvement, and then they still did everything in their power to sabotage the AR15 before, during, and after adoption, to include sending rifles to Vietnam with cartridges loaded with ball propellant that they knew caused the guns to malfunction, after proofing them with the original extruded propellant cartridges it was designed around. They also mis-handled the M110 so poorly by requiring HPT on the bolts, against the recommendations of everyone with a brain, that you actually see M110 bolts shearing lugs, whereas you just didn't see this with the SR25, and why the units that have the COTS authority still buy SR25s from KAC without M110 TDP specs. So your arguments are based on a fundamental misunderstanding or ignorance of USMC force structure, and the premise that the Army makes good decisions with its rifle competitions, as long as HK is the beneficiary. I have a feeling once the M110A1 comes online the units procuring COSTS KAC SR-25 will likely stop, just like how if the 416 replaces the M4 I doubt SOCOM would say "nah were keeping our M4A1s and SR-25ECC s". So you aren't going to do the math on your assumption about 11,000 IARs across 24 active USMC Infantry Battalions? With the small frame stuff sweeping the market, some units will be early adopters. The HK monstrosity will be laughed at. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:00:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We've been over this. The military does not pick weapons based on what's best. It picks them based on ignorant officer decisions, factory districts and backroom deals. The M27 fixes a couple small issues with the M4 and replaces them with its own issues. It's not an ubergun, it's just another in a long line of slightly different designs that the manufacturer wants you to believe is better than blowjobs. Do you work for HK or something? Nope, don't work for H&K....I wouldn't mind if they had a Texas factory. I've just seen the light, I guess one could say. You say they don't pick what's best, but we had Gunner Wade himself in my nuked thread stating in fact that the M27 far surpasses the M16MWS in durability, reliability, and accuracy by significant margins....Big enough margins to to make the price increase worth it. That's a pretty big statement imo. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:00:41 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
We've been over this. The military does not pick weapons based on what's best. It picks them based on ignorant officer decisions, factory districts and backroom deals. The M27 fixes a couple small issues with the M4 and replaces them with its own issues. It's not an ubergun, it's just another in a long line of slightly different designs that the manufacturer wants you to believe is better than blowjobs. Do you work for HK or something? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. I find it funny everyone insults me when the Army just adopted the H&K 417 to replace the KAC M110 and now the Marines are planning on replacing the M4 with the HK416. Yet I'm an idiot for not seeing the superiority of the M4! We've been over this. The military does not pick weapons based on what's best. It picks them based on ignorant officer decisions, factory districts and backroom deals. The M27 fixes a couple small issues with the M4 and replaces them with its own issues. It's not an ubergun, it's just another in a long line of slightly different designs that the manufacturer wants you to believe is better than blowjobs. Do you work for HK or something? Or I mean, do you have radically different info than what the Marines who've been using the IAR have ,or the Gunners behind the testing? |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:03:40 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you aren't going to do the math on your assumption about 11,000 IARs across 24 active USMC Infantry Battalions? With the small frame stuff sweeping the market, some units will be early adopters. The HK monstrosity will be laughed at. Quote HistoryQuoted:
So you aren't going to do the math on your assumption about 11,000 IARs across 24 active USMC Infantry Battalions? With the small frame stuff sweeping the market, some units will be early adopters. The HK monstrosity will be laughed at. Quoted:
Not that your line out of Bn's is right, but that works out to being pretty much a IAR for nearly every trigger puller in the line companies if you leave hot dog and soda out. As to the M110A1. It weighs 8.7lbs. how is that a monstrosity? |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:10:08 PM EDT
[#44]
How many kids will join just to play with the new awesome Toy?
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:15:37 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Or, at least in the Marines, it picks them based on testing both in training, then in combat, and works within the realm of what it can and can't get. Or I mean, do you have radically different info than what the Marines who've been using the IAR have ,or the Gunners behind the testing? Exactly, and Cwo5 Wade says the M27 far surpasses the M4 across the board and can be had. None of this "if only we get a new rail, trigger, BCG, and CH in the M4" because we're not getting those things. The M4 is stuck in TDP limbo, with no upgrades in sight. The Army recently shit canned any attempt to improve the M4 because "nothing on the market was an improvement over what we got". So let's not discuss what could be, let's discuss what is here, right now, available and easy to get. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:16:42 PM EDT
[#46]
Two great things that go great together, people trying to apply their outsider worldview to USMC rifles use, and people trying to wrap their heads around the IAR and what it is or isn't supposed to be.
Always makes for great threads.
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:24:59 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Not that your line out of Bn's is right, but that works out to being pretty much a IAR for nearly every trigger puller in the line companies if you leave hot dog and soda out. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You would give up more reliability and better accuracy and capability for more sustained fire over half a pound? For .4lbs you gain a 9" free float rail, CHF barrel with 20,000+ rounds barrel life, increased reliability, and increases durability. I find it funny everyone insults me when the Army just adopted the H&K 417 to replace the KAC M110 and now the Marines are planning on replacing the M4 with the HK416. Yet I'm an idiot for not seeing the superiority of the M4! You insult yourself with these kinds of statements. How many Infantrymen in a USMC Infantry Battalion? How many USMC Infantry battalions? 1/1 2/1 3/1 1/2 2/2 3/2 1/3 2/3 3/3 1/4 2/4 3/4 1/5 2/5 3/5 1/6 2/6 3/6 1/7 2/7 3/7 1/8 2/8 3/8 That's just the active units. Please explain to me how 11,000 rifles will be used by these 24 different active duty USMC Infantry battalions. On to the HK417 abortion. It didn't win their competition because of the gun. The Army's record for rifle competitions is abysmal, if you study any of the history. We would never have gotten the AR15 if it weren't for direct Presidential and SECDEF involvement, and then they still did everything in their power to sabotage the AR15 before, during, and after adoption, to include sending rifles to Vietnam with cartridges loaded with ball propellant that they knew caused the guns to malfunction, after proofing them with the original extruded propellant cartridges it was designed around. They also mis-handled the M110 so poorly by requiring HPT on the bolts, against the recommendations of everyone with a brain, that you actually see M110 bolts shearing lugs, whereas you just didn't see this with the SR25, and why the units that have the COTS authority still buy SR25s from KAC without M110 TDP specs. So your arguments are based on a fundamental misunderstanding or ignorance of USMC force structure, and the premise that the Army makes good decisions with its rifle competitions, as long as HK is the beneficiary. USMC Infantry Battalions are large, because Rifle Squads are large, and you have several different companies in addition to what you would see in the Army. With 24 active duty Infantry battalions, that's way more than 11,000 rifles could ever hope to fill. Look up MCRP 5-12D, amended Feb 15, 2016. The USMC has much larger infantry battalions than the US Army because it actually has Infantry Squads, not oversized fire teams like in the Army meant to squish into Bradleys, even though most of the Infantry MTOE units don't ride in Bradleys. We're not even talking about all the Light Armored Reconnaissance Battalions either, or Artillery batteries, Air Wing, MARSOC, etc., just Infantry battalions. Now look at how many SAWs there are USMC-wide. Most Marines have no clue about the greater organizational MTO&E because they don't need to know, and don't care to either. Most do a term and can't wait to get out once their enlistment is up, which is fine. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:26:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nordic Battle Group in Afghanistan had catastrophic failures with brand new HK416s. The design does not do well with high sand/dust environments in the real world because you just placed one of the critical components outside of the protective enclosure of the upper receiver. Congrats on making the M4 into 8x the cost with an SVT-38 abortion of an operating system. Bier all around, Americans got the bill, ha ha! Danes told me they preferred pulling the FCG out of the 416 and dropping into a better carbine, the C8, no problems. Colt Canada engineers refer to the 416 as a total abortion, with featured that require more features to fix the problems those features created. The biggest design flaw of an external piston system that can't be ignored is that you violently and instantaneously power up the op rod with gas, which immediately begins to move the carrier. In the Stoner internal expansion system, the gas has to flow into the carrier/bolt/piston chamber, and fill the volume of that chamber to generate inertia, which buys you some precious fractions of a second of time while the case rebounds from obturation. Now you see why the 416 has the carrier, buffer, and spring weights that it does, which now increase return-to-battery stroke impact on the barrel extension, which then requires a heavier buffer to counter carrier bounce on automatic, which requires more gas. More gas you say? Lets open the port, but then add an adjustable regulator. More gas powers up the face of the piston with more volume per time, increasing carrier inertia again, requiring more weights, higher spring rate. More spring rate increases carrier velocity on the return stroke, increasing carrier bounce. Guys are complaining about barrel weight, so they want a lighter barrel. Oh, and they're going to suppress too. So sad When I look at the design flaw you refer to, instantaneously powering up the op rod with gas, that seems like you are describing the inherent nature of how gas operated semis with op rods operate. Are you saying that op rods are bad, or thatthe 416 poorly executes something that is not inherently bad? I am not a SME on the 416. I would say that in general, the gas operated semiauto weapons with a reputation for being the most reliable, are those with op rods, not DU. Trying to clarify what you are arguing against. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:31:25 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The idea behind a rifle as modular as an M4 is that you don't need to replace the whole fucking thing when you want to upgrade stuff. This M16A5 and M4A2 instead of some stupid-ass expensive & proprietary piston AR. |
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Posted: 2/10/2017 9:37:37 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
When I look at the design flaw you refer to, instantaneously powering up the op rod with gas, that seems like you are describing the inherent nature of how gas operated semis with op rods operate. Are you saying that op rods are bad, or thatthe 416 poorly executes something that is not inherently bad? I am not a SME on the 416. I would say that in general, the gas operated semiauto weapons with a reputation for being the most reliable, are those with op rods, not DU. Trying to clarify what you are arguing against. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nordic Battle Group in Afghanistan had catastrophic failures with brand new HK416s. The design does not do well with high sand/dust environments in the real world because you just placed one of the critical components outside of the protective enclosure of the upper receiver. Congrats on making the M4 into 8x the cost with an SVT-38 abortion of an operating system. Bier all around, Americans got the bill, ha ha! Danes told me they preferred pulling the FCG out of the 416 and dropping into a better carbine, the C8, no problems. Colt Canada engineers refer to the 416 as a total abortion, with featured that require more features to fix the problems those features created. The biggest design flaw of an external piston system that can't be ignored is that you violently and instantaneously power up the op rod with gas, which immediately begins to move the carrier. In the Stoner internal expansion system, the gas has to flow into the carrier/bolt/piston chamber, and fill the volume of that chamber to generate inertia, which buys you some precious fractions of a second of time while the case rebounds from obturation. Now you see why the 416 has the carrier, buffer, and spring weights that it does, which now increase return-to-battery stroke impact on the barrel extension, which then requires a heavier buffer to counter carrier bounce on automatic, which requires more gas. More gas you say? Lets open the port, but then add an adjustable regulator. More gas powers up the face of the piston with more volume per time, increasing carrier inertia again, requiring more weights, higher spring rate. More spring rate increases carrier velocity on the return stroke, increasing carrier bounce. Guys are complaining about barrel weight, so they want a lighter barrel. Oh, and they're going to suppress too. So sad When I look at the design flaw you refer to, instantaneously powering up the op rod with gas, that seems like you are describing the inherent nature of how gas operated semis with op rods operate. Are you saying that op rods are bad, or thatthe 416 poorly executes something that is not inherently bad? I am not a SME on the 416. I would say that in general, the gas operated semiauto weapons with a reputation for being the most reliable, are those with op rods, not DU. Trying to clarify what you are arguing against. You can alleviate op rod instantaneous inertia imparted to the carrier and its influence on camming by elongating the cam pin path, like LMT already did on the Enhanced BCG for SOCOM, which the Army refused to allow SOCOM to adopt since it would cause short-stroking if someone installed that carrier in the M16A2/A4. The Germans did this when they copied Stoner's AR18, but added a longer cam pin path for carrier retraction before unlocking, then FN copied that bolt carrier and bolt with the FN SCAR. The problem with that route is that the carrier can accelerate without any camming friction, which increases carrier velocity. Then you have to increase spring rate, which increases carrier return stroke, which increases carrier bounce, which then needs more spring or buffer rate, and now you're in a vicious cycle. This is why the under-sprung AR15 with bumper pad for return stroke inertia works so well at a behaved balance, with a cascading reciprocating mass with the buffer weights. |
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