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Posted: 5/10/2016 3:57:14 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeesh.... curious to see what actually happened there. Almost 270 miles an hour in a Bonanza... sheesh. My brother's 4 seat Piper Cherokee lost it's vacuum pump once. It wipes out some of the instruments, including the card compass, artificial horizon, climb and dive indicator, and a few others. My brother landed safely at a small local airport about 25 miles away. He did not declare an emergency. But he was instrument rated, and his airplane had twin nav/com radios. If you are only rated for VFR (visual) flying, it might seem scary. Repairs were expensive. I drove about 125 miles one way to get him and his passenger home. I had to work in the morning. I was very short on sleep. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 4:08:40 AM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeesh.... curious to see what actually happened there. Almost 270 miles an hour in a Bonanza... sheesh. My brother's 4 seat Piper Cherokee lost it's vacuum pump once. It wipes out some of the instruments, including the card compass, artificial horizon, climb and dive indicator, and a few others. My brother landed safely at a small local airport about 25 miles away. He did not declare an emergency. But he was instrument rated, and his airplane had twin nav/com radios. If you are only rated for VFR (visual) flying, it might seem scary. Repairs were expensive. I drove about 125 miles one way to get him and his passenger home. I had to work in the morning. I was very short on sleep. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 4:18:31 AM EST
[#3]
The dreaded V tail breakup.
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:03:50 AM EST
[#4]
I have a passing "V-tailed Bonanza" story. My old boss has one. His Bonanza was the last GA aircraft I flew in. He and a bunch of WW2 geezers owned several of them and would formation fly for various events. All were B17, B24, and in his case C47 pilots. He was the youngest of the bunch and sat behind Jesus in 3rd grade.
FCC database says he still has the plane. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:13:33 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Well....maybe there's nothing wrong with the REST of them....clearly, this one developed a sniffle. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I wouldn't get up outof the electric chair to take a flight in a Vee tailed version Bonanza. The issues were fixed with the leading edges. Nothing wrong with the airplane. Wonder if this person could have flown some where that wasn't IMC. Well....maybe there's nothing wrong with the REST of them....clearly, this one developed a sniffle. Well, NOW it does. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:22:11 AM EST
[#6]
The v tail airplanes have a structural fix at the leading edge, an added clip or bracket depending on the source of the modification that provides a load path that reacts torque in the surfaces. That feature should have been installed at factory on the first airplane out the door.
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:24:35 AM EST
[#7]
Nothing wrong with a V tail.
Beechcraft makes a very good airplane. Same thing can happen in a Cessna 210 or Piper Lance, etc. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:37:51 AM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The dreaded V tail breakup. Any bonanza would break apart at that speed. This wasn't the v-tail's fault. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:40:02 AM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Is the north/south because most mountain ranges run roughly north/south? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile No - this is not based on terrain, but on how a magnetic compass operates. Aircraft (and boat) compasses do not rotate on a pin like a handheld compass. Rather, they float in a liquid (traditionally alcohol), which reduces friction and binding. Floating magnetic compasses experience errors due to acceleration if the acceleration is not in line with the magnetic lines (i.e. North/South). This is because of 2 factors: 1. The magnetic lines are not parallel with the ground. 2. The compass floats in an alcohol solution, and is held horizontal simply by weight below its center of buoyancy. When accelerating, the compass will "dip" in the direction being accelerated. Since the Earth's magnetic force lines are not parallel to the ground, tilting the compass away from the direction of the magnetic field will result in a horizontal rotation component as well, causing the compass to rotate to more closely align to the magnetic filed and will as a result display a changed heading. Mike |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:40:49 AM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
VFR on top IS IFR! Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
VFR on top. Not allowed here, for a very good reason. VFR on top IS IFR! What are you talking about? VFR is VFR whether you're on top, below or beside it, upside down or right side up. VFR is VFR. IFR is IFR. Any private pilot can fly VFR on top unless it's in airspace that prohibits it. Student pilots cannot fly VFR on top. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 8:33:46 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Any bonanza would break apart at that speed. This wasn't the v-tail's fault. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The dreaded V tail breakup. Any bonanza would break apart at that speed. This wasn't the v-tail's fault. I heard of some drunks that took a Navion apart coming out of an intentional dive. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 9:12:40 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
that depends on the airplane. not sure about bonanzas, but my 1971 cardinal rg does not have any real useful dihedral. She is very neutrally stable. for me it would be a trim for mostly level, power back, below 140mph (yes, she has a dual unit ASI and mph is what the handbook is written for), drop gear, re trim, set power for the same 500fpm decent. and lock eyes on the turn coordinator and the altimeter. keep that ball centered and the little airplane level and you cant get too far off, check the compass every few seconds for confirmation and the air speed indicator/vsi the same frequency. (staying coordinated is the key, if your flying coordinated, as in the ball in the center, and the turn rate indicator is showing zero turn. your will be mostly level. but still check your compass) i've never met a cloud that could be remotely defined as smooth, so in my particular plane, hands in lap would be suicide. I practice partial panel in vfr during longer trips. its a useful skill to maintain. sky, im sure you know all this already, just a little inside baseball for the rest of them. 
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
http://cdn.news12.com/polopoly_fs/1.11764225.1462449080!/httpImage/image.jpeg_gen/derivatives/landscape_768/image.jpeg The victims. For the record, In a similar situation, assuming I don't trust my partial panel skills and I'm VFR on top.Trim the airplane for straight and level flight then reduce power for 500 fpm decent. Put hands on lap and feet flat on floor and watch for VFR conditions as I descend thru clouds. The plane will fly itself and with a few minor deviations stay upright. i've never met a cloud that could be remotely defined as smooth, so in my particular plane, hands in lap would be suicide. I practice partial panel in vfr during longer trips. its a useful skill to maintain. sky, im sure you know all this already, just a little inside baseball for the rest of them.
High wing birds like Cessnas don't need much if any dihedral. If they start going sideways, pressure builds up at the wing root/cabin joint on the side it is slipping toward, which raises that wing and takes the airplane back the other direction. That doesn't happen on low-wing monoplanes, so they need more dihedral to do the same thing - to lift the "down" wing. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 10:20:32 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I heard of some drunks that took a Navion apart coming out of an intentional dive. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The dreaded V tail breakup. Any bonanza would break apart at that speed. This wasn't the v-tail's fault. I heard of some drunks that took a Navion apart coming out of an intentional dive. That's a shame. I wonder what Mach they had to get up to to accomplish that. There was an idiot and his friend that nearly accomplished it in Cape Girardeau, MO in a King Air 200. Pilot was in the habit of turning the O2 off on his post flights and not checking it on his preflights. They were cruising along at FL270 when the windshield shattered but didn't blow out. So they depressurized to relieve strain on it. But only after they depressurized did they don their masks and when they did they couldn't get anything out of it. When they regained consciousness they were descending through 7000' in a dive. They ripped most of the horizontal stab off the plane. Then, to make matters just a little worse, they didn't bother to establish a long stabilized final to get a feel for the aircraft's new configuration. No, they did one of those close in, 1/4 mile swoopy turns to final. Despite their best efforts the airplane miraculously allowed them to live. Beech makes a fine product. Here's the landing and it shows the damage. 
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Posted: 5/10/2016 10:21:28 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: High wing birds like Cessnas don't need much if any dihedral. If they start going sideways, pressure builds up at the wing root/cabin joint on the side it is slipping toward, which raises that wing and takes the airplane back the other direction. That doesn't happen on low-wing monoplanes, so they need more dihedral to do the same thing - to lift the "down" wing. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: http://cdn.news12.com/polopoly_fs/1.11764225.1462449080!/httpImage/image.jpeg_gen/derivatives/landscape_768/image.jpeg The victims. For the record, In a similar situation, assuming I don't trust my partial panel skills and I'm VFR on top.Trim the airplane for straight and level flight then reduce power for 500 fpm decent. Put hands on lap and feet flat on floor and watch for VFR conditions as I descend thru clouds. The plane will fly itself and with a few minor deviations stay upright. i've never met a cloud that could be remotely defined as smooth, so in my particular plane, hands in lap would be suicide. I practice partial panel in vfr during longer trips. its a useful skill to maintain. sky, im sure you know all this already, just a little inside baseball for the rest of them. High wing birds like Cessnas don't need much if any dihedral. If they start going sideways, pressure builds up at the wing root/cabin joint on the side it is slipping toward, which raises that wing and takes the airplane back the other direction. That doesn't happen on low-wing monoplanes, so they need more dihedral to do the same thing - to lift the "down" wing. Personally i'de rather practice partial panel |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 10:37:31 AM EST
[#15]
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Posted: 5/10/2016 10:41:14 AM EST
[#16]
Quote History$1000 would have done it. And no need for install. Just velcro it to the panel. http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/inpages/dynond2_11-12158.php?recfer=16216 |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 11:31:25 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
$1000 would have done it. And no need for install. Just velcro it to the panel. http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/inpages/dynond2_11-12158.php?recfer=16216 Quote HistoryQuoted:
$1000 would have done it. And no need for install. Just velcro it to the panel. http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/inpages/dynond2_11-12158.php?recfer=16216 damn even better, between things like you posted and cheaper available AOA indicators things like this can be avoided all together. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 11:57:08 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's a shame. I wonder what Mach they had to get up to to accomplish that. There was an idiot and his friend that nearly accomplished it in Cape Girardeau, MO in a King Air 200. Pilot was in the habit of turning the O2 off on his post flights and not checking it on his preflights. They were cruising along at FL270 when the windshield shattered but didn't blow out. So they depressurized to relieve strain on it. But only after they depressurized did they don their masks and when they did they couldn't get anything out of it. When they regained consciousness they were descending through 7000' in a dive. They ripped most of the horizontal stab off the plane. Then, to make matters just a little worse, they didn't bother to establish a long stabilized final to get a feel for the aircraft's new configuration. No, they did one of those close in, 1/4 mile swoopy turns to final. Despite their best efforts the airplane miraculously allowed them to live. Beech makes a fine product. Here's the landing and it shows the damage.  https://youtu.be/OWuPmGPBW8o
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The dreaded V tail breakup. Any bonanza would break apart at that speed. This wasn't the v-tail's fault. I heard of some drunks that took a Navion apart coming out of an intentional dive. That's a shame. I wonder what Mach they had to get up to to accomplish that. There was an idiot and his friend that nearly accomplished it in Cape Girardeau, MO in a King Air 200. Pilot was in the habit of turning the O2 off on his post flights and not checking it on his preflights. They were cruising along at FL270 when the windshield shattered but didn't blow out. So they depressurized to relieve strain on it. But only after they depressurized did they don their masks and when they did they couldn't get anything out of it. When they regained consciousness they were descending through 7000' in a dive. They ripped most of the horizontal stab off the plane. Then, to make matters just a little worse, they didn't bother to establish a long stabilized final to get a feel for the aircraft's new configuration. No, they did one of those close in, 1/4 mile swoopy turns to final. Despite their best efforts the airplane miraculously allowed them to live. Beech makes a fine product. Here's the landing and it shows the damage. https://youtu.be/OWuPmGPBW8o
That was an expensive fuckup that should have cost their lives. They're incredibly lucky to be above the dirt, and that particular KingAir, 7 Alpha Juliet, is one tough airframe. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 12:02:30 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
damn even better, between things like you posted and cheaper available AOA indicators things like this can be avoided all together. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
$1000 would have done it. And no need for install. Just velcro it to the panel. http://www.pilotshop.com/catalog/inpages/dynond2_11-12158.php?recfer=16216 damn even better, between things like you posted and cheaper available AOA indicators things like this can be avoided all together. This device is light years better than nothing or the popular ipad application, but keep in mind that it uses GPS derived performance data. That means that if you want TAS, you'll have to get out the whiz wheel. Attitude is calculated by using the internal accelerometers and gyros with logic that compares those measurements against GPS information to help insure the displayed information is as correct as possible. Accelerometers in a steady state turn measure zero acceleration, although true unaccelerated steady turns are rare, it's design fact that must be included. This is a great tool, but it does not relieve the pilot from training and thinking about exactly what the display means. Simply looking at the display is not enough, seeing and understanding the information is required. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 12:13:56 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm going to bet that that is beyond the 'speed never to exceed' for a Beech Bonanza. My brother's 4 seat Piper Cherokee lost it's vacuum pump once. It wipes out some of the instruments, including the card compass, artificial horizon, climb and dive indicator, and a few others. My brother landed safely at a small local airport about 25 miles away. He did not declare an emergency. But he was instrument rated, and his airplane had twin nav/com radios. If you are only rated for VFR (visual) flying, it might seem scary. Repairs were expensive. I drove about 125 miles one way to get him and his passenger home. I had to work in the morning. I was very short on sleep. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Yeesh.... curious to see what actually happened there. Almost 270 miles an hour in a Bonanza... sheesh. My brother's 4 seat Piper Cherokee lost it's vacuum pump once. It wipes out some of the instruments, including the card compass, artificial horizon, climb and dive indicator, and a few others. My brother landed safely at a small local airport about 25 miles away. He did not declare an emergency. But he was instrument rated, and his airplane had twin nav/com radios. If you are only rated for VFR (visual) flying, it might seem scary. Repairs were expensive. I drove about 125 miles one way to get him and his passenger home. I had to work in the morning. I was very short on sleep. Losing the vacuum system will only take out the artificial horizon and the directional gyro. The vertical velocity indicator is essentially a diaphragm inside a case with a calibrated leak in it. A no gyro approach should be an exciting but non-disastrous occasion. And if I lost my vacuum pump in IMC I'd be declaring immediately, there's no fee for calling an IFE. 
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Posted: 5/10/2016 12:59:14 PM EST
[#21]
Finished reading this thread in the parking lot of the ,FBO. That king air crew/passengers are lucky to be alive
I gave my old girl a little extra windshield cleaning and warm up love before we headed out into severe clear . Then we got high together   |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 1:21:30 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Finished reading this thread in the parking lot of the ,FBO. That king air crew/passengers are lucky to be alive
I gave my old girl a little extra windshield cleaning and warm up love before we headed out into severe clear . Then we got high togetherhttp://i.imgur.com/2o06cyph.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KFczN5T.jpg sweet, aren't you training to be a CFI? |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 1:57:28 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: sweet, aren't you training to be a CFI? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Finished reading this thread in the parking lot of the ,FBO. That king air crew/passengers are lucky to be alive I gave my old girl a little extra windshield cleaning and warm up love before we headed out into severe clear . Then we got high togetherhttp://i.imgur.com/2o06cyph.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/KFczN5T.jpg sweet, aren't you training to be a CFI? But at least my office has a nice view |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 2:12:41 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Finished reading this thread in the parking lot of the ,FBO. That king air crew/passengers are lucky to be alive
I gave my old girl a little extra windshield cleaning and warm up love before we headed out into severe clear . Then we got high togetherhttp://i.imgur.com/2o06cyph.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KFczN5T.jpg Nice, I've been wanting to fly a 177 but don't know anybody who owns one. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 2:25:18 PM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Nice, I've been wanting to fly a 177 but don't know anybody who owns one. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Finished reading this thread in the parking lot of the ,FBO. That king air crew/passengers are lucky to be alive
I gave my old girl a little extra windshield cleaning and warm up love before we headed out into severe clear . Then we got high togetherhttp://i.imgur.com/2o06cyph.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/KFczN5T.jpg Nice, I've been wanting to fly a 177 but don't know anybody who owns one. me too, but I don't have a PPL. 
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Posted: 5/10/2016 2:36:14 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nice, I've been wanting to fly a 177 but don't know anybody who owns one. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Finished reading this thread in the parking lot of the ,FBO. That king air crew/passengers are lucky to be alive I gave my old girl a little extra windshield cleaning and warm up love before we headed out into severe clear . Then we got high togetherhttp://i.imgur.com/2o06cyph.jpghttp://i.imgur.com/KFczN5T.jpg Nice, I've been wanting to fly a 177 but don't know anybody who owns one. 120kts cruise at 7500 ft today. Fuel burn 8.5gph. One of the most efficient airframe/engine combinations out there Did they figure out what caused the failure yet? Prayers out to the families |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 3:04:28 PM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What are you talking about? VFR is VFR whether you're on top, below or beside it, upside down or right side up. VFR is VFR. IFR is IFR. Any private pilot can fly VFR on top unless it's in airspace that prohibits it. Student pilots cannot fly VFR on top. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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VFR on top. Not allowed here, for a very good reason. VFR on top IS IFR! What are you talking about? VFR is VFR whether you're on top, below or beside it, upside down or right side up. VFR is VFR. IFR is IFR. Any private pilot can fly VFR on top unless it's in airspace that prohibits it. Student pilots cannot fly VFR on top. "VFR on top" is indeed an instrument flight rules clearance. This is different from a non-instrument rated pilot (VFR only) flying along when an undercast layer develops. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 3:54:47 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: "VFR on top" is indeed an instrument flight rules clearance. This is different from a non-instrument rated pilot (VFR only) flying along when an undercast layer develops. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: VFR on top. Not allowed here, for a very good reason. VFR on top IS IFR! What are you talking about? VFR is VFR whether you're on top, below or beside it, upside down or right side up. VFR is VFR. IFR is IFR. Any private pilot can fly VFR on top unless it's in airspace that prohibits it. Student pilots cannot fly VFR on top. "VFR on top" is indeed an instrument flight rules clearance. This is different from a non-instrument rated pilot (VFR only) flying along when an undercast layer develops. I'll have to go re read, but I believe the pilot was instrument rated. Vfr on top is an IFR clearance. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 4:05:37 PM EST
[#29]
Yep. There's VFR on top, VFR over the top and VFR climb.
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^QFT I'll have to go re read, but I believe the pilot was instrument rated. Vfr on top is an IFR clearance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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VFR on top. Not allowed here, for a very good reason. VFR on top IS IFR! What are you talking about? VFR is VFR whether you're on top, below or beside it, upside down or right side up. VFR is VFR. IFR is IFR. Any private pilot can fly VFR on top unless it's in airspace that prohibits it. Student pilots cannot fly VFR on top. "VFR on top" is indeed an instrument flight rules clearance. This is different from a non-instrument rated pilot (VFR only) flying along when an undercast layer develops. I'll have to go re read, but I believe the pilot was instrument rated. Vfr on top is an IFR clearance. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 5:27:40 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^QFT I'll have to go re read, but I believe the pilot was instrument rated. Vfr on top is an IFR clearance. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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VFR on top. Not allowed here, for a very good reason. VFR on top IS IFR! What are you talking about? VFR is VFR whether you're on top, below or beside it, upside down or right side up. VFR is VFR. IFR is IFR. Any private pilot can fly VFR on top unless it's in airspace that prohibits it. Student pilots cannot fly VFR on top. "VFR on top" is indeed an instrument flight rules clearance. This is different from a non-instrument rated pilot (VFR only) flying along when an undercast layer develops. I'll have to go re read, but I believe the pilot was instrument rated. Vfr on top is an IFR clearance. VFR Over The Top is the phrase for strictly vfr IIRC. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 7:24:15 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
VFR Over The Top is the phrase for strictly vfr IIRC. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
VFR on top IS IFR! What are you talking about? VFR is VFR whether you're on top, below or beside it, upside down or right side up. VFR is VFR. IFR is IFR. Any private pilot can fly VFR on top unless it's in airspace that prohibits it. Student pilots cannot fly VFR on top. "VFR on top" is indeed an instrument flight rules clearance. This is different from a non-instrument rated pilot (VFR only) flying along when an undercast layer develops. I'll have to go re read, but I believe the pilot was instrument rated. Vfr on top is an IFR clearance. VFR Over The Top is the phrase for strictly vfr IIRC. OK, I see what Pirate was getting at. VFR On Top is the proper term for the initial clearance but once on top you are required to maintain VFR cloud clearances and aircraft separation. You must abide by VFR rules. I'm not sure why this even came up as VFR On Top had nothing to do with this accident. VFR in IMC was the problem. |
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Posted: 5/10/2016 10:13:47 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
OK, I see what Pirate was getting at. VFR On Top is the proper term for the initial clearance but once on top you are required to maintain VFR cloud clearances and aircraft separation. You must abide by VFR rules. I'm not sure why this even came up as VFR On Top had nothing to do with this accident. VFR in IMC was the problem. I don't see it that way. The pilot was instrument rated, but he was flying partial panel due to the vacuum failure. I suspect this led to spatial disorientation. Vacuum failure is considered an emergency for a good reason and partial panel should be practiced regularly. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:05:06 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
http://cdn.news12.com/polopoly_fs/1.11764225.1462449080!/httpImage/image.jpeg_gen/derivatives/landscape_768/image.jpeg The victims. For the record, In a similar situation, assuming I don't trust my partial panel skills and I'm VFR on top.Trim the airplane for straight and level flight then reduce power for 500 fpm decent. Put hands on lap and feet flat on floor and watch for VFR conditions as I descend thru clouds. The plane will fly itself and with a few minor deviations stay upright. . That poor girl.
Fwiw- please don't rely upon your cunning plan. It doesn't work that way. Except maybe in a Cessna 172/182. Practice partial panel, and buy a back up adi. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:23:36 AM EST
[#34]
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked?
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:44:45 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? Airspeed indicator is reliant on the pitot and static systems and would not have been effected by the vacuum failure. This is something that IFR pilots train for and should not have been terminal. Although there's a reason that I carry covers for instruments that fail so the erroneous indications don't throw me off. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 10:46:44 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? all pitot static instruments would have worked just fine. A back up artificial horizon would probably have kept the plane upright and intact. It can be done just using the Altimiter/VSI/airspeed indicator and compass but it is difficult if you don't practice regularly. Most GA pilots do not practice regularly. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 11:30:04 AM EST
[#37]
I think the accident chain was already broken when the pilot chose to fly into those weather conditions with passengers and with an airplane and his own capabilities in question.
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So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 11:40:44 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the accident chain was already broken when the pilot chose to fly into those weather conditions with passengers and with an airplane and his own capabilities in question. Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think the accident chain was already broken when the pilot chose to fly into those weather conditions with passengers and with an airplane and his own capabilities in question. Quoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? This is the best answer |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 12:43:02 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is the best answer Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I think the accident chain was already broken when the pilot chose to fly into those weather conditions with passengers and with an airplane and his own capabilities in question. Quoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? This is the best answer I thought breaking the accident chain prevented the accident.
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Posted: 5/11/2016 1:12:14 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Probably a doctor or dentist flying. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 1:19:22 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I thought breaking the accident chain prevented the accident. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Quoted:
I think the accident chain was already broken when the pilot chose to fly into those weather conditions with passengers and with an airplane and his own capabilities in question. Quoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? This is the best answer I thought breaking the accident chain prevented the accident. You are correct. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 1:44:41 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Airspeed indicator is reliant on the pitot and static systems and would not have been effected by the vacuum failure. This is something that IFR pilots train for and should not have been terminal. Although there's a reason that I carry covers for instruments that fail so the erroneous indications don't throw me off. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? Airspeed indicator is reliant on the pitot and static systems and would not have been effected by the vacuum failure. This is something that IFR pilots train for and should not have been terminal. Although there's a reason that I carry covers for instruments that fail so the erroneous indications don't throw me off. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 1:46:31 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
all pitot static instruments would have worked just fine. A back up artificial horizon would probably have kept the plane upright and intact. It can be done just using the Altimiter/VSI/airspeed indicator and compass but it is difficult if you don't practice regularly. Most GA pilots do not practice regularly. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? all pitot static instruments would have worked just fine. A back up artificial horizon would probably have kept the plane upright and intact. It can be done just using the Altimiter/VSI/airspeed indicator and compass but it is difficult if you don't practice regularly. Most GA pilots do not practice regularly. I got ya, every time I see one of these accidents I always try to figure out how these people get their ass in suck a crack. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 1:57:12 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not a pilot, but that sounds like a great plan. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Although there's a reason that I carry covers for instruments that fail so the erroneous indications don't throw me off. I'm not a pilot, but that sounds like a great plan. It is. Just be sure the plan includes how to explain it to your non-pilot spouse when you start covering up inop instruments (like a heading indicator that went TU in flight). 
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Posted: 5/11/2016 2:36:20 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not a pilot, but that sounds like a great plan. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? Airspeed indicator is reliant on the pitot and static systems and would not have been effected by the vacuum failure. This is something that IFR pilots train for and should not have been terminal. Although there's a reason that I carry covers for instruments that fail so the erroneous indications don't throw me off. Cover it up so you aren't tempted to break discipline by looking at a bad instrument. Sometimes the failures are insidious. This the reason a strong scan is needed, but the idea is to not just look at the instruments, but see and understand the indications, and then trust the ones that aren't lying to you. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 6:28:42 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I'm not a pilot, but that sounds like a great plan. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? Airspeed indicator is reliant on the pitot and static systems and would not have been effected by the vacuum failure. This is something that IFR pilots train for and should not have been terminal. Although there's a reason that I carry covers for instruments that fail so the erroneous indications don't throw me off. Business Cards also work so does post it notes. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 11:23:14 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Business Cards also work so does post it notes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So what's the consensus? a back up artificial horizon and gps would have saved the plane? I imagine his airspeed indicator would still have worked? Airspeed indicator is reliant on the pitot and static systems and would not have been effected by the vacuum failure. This is something that IFR pilots train for and should not have been terminal. Although there's a reason that I carry covers for instruments that fail so the erroneous indications don't throw me off. Business Cards also work so does post it notes. And 100mph tape. Known as duct tape in the non-aviation world. Every plane needs some. |
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Posted: 5/11/2016 11:29:41 PM EST
[#48]
Ive had a vacuum failure in IMC. It is not a fun day.
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Posted: 5/12/2016 2:32:06 AM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive had a vacuum failure in IMC. It is not a fun day. Navion pilot warned me how his venturi vacuum got blocked with ice over Albuquerque ... saying losing the instruments while fighting icing was something you want to avoid.
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Posted: 5/12/2016 8:22:25 AM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Ive had a vacuum failure in IMC. It is not a fun day. I had it happen once too. It took me a bit to realize it as the autopilot was on in cruise flight. Then I just ignored it and pressed on. Redundancy and alternate sources is a good thing.  " />
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