User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 3:33:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch.  I remember that thread. one of the first posters stated exactly what happened. ArfCom never ceases to amaze me with the amount of knowledgeable people on board. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 3:36:44 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good question... I believe that the trailer came-off the tractor. But I hadn't considered the chain deal (cause you're right about that). At any rate, the driver failed to secure the trailer properly and it went bad from there. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Wait the trailer come of the tractor or did a trailer come off the trailer, because Ive never seen a semi trailer with safety chains its just all the fifth wheel, unless it was a bumper pull. Good question... I believe that the trailer came-off the tractor. But I hadn't considered the chain deal (cause you're right about that). At any rate, the driver failed to secure the trailer properly and it went bad from there. Probably high hitched it or somebody pulled the hitch pin, that's why anytime before I leave I set the trailer brakes and give it a tug to make sure the trailers connected good. Either way bad on the driver for not doing a proper pre trip. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 3:42:38 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I just downloaded and scanned through the synopsis of the NTSB report and a center of gravity problem appears to not be the cause of the crash, rather it was the damage to the control system that rendered pitch control impossible. "The airplane’s loss of pitch control was the result of the improper restraint of the rear mine-resistant ambush-protected all-terrain vehicle, which allowed it to move aft through the aft pressure bulkhead and damage hydraulic systems Nos. 1 and 2 and horizontal stabilizer drive mechanism components to the extent that it was not possible for the flight crew to regain pitch control of the airplane." It is pretty amazing that even after a impact like that they can identify root cause. Cause that air-frame was fucked up. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 3:44:30 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:  You're welcome. Now go off load your baggage.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It makes me appreciate the good job done by the guys loading the mil birds I have flown in. You're welcome. Now go off load your baggage.  |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 4:01:28 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I can't find it now but I watched a video on this in the last week or so. They found broken cargo straps in the wreckage. Sudden aft CG shifts have killed a lot of people on takeoff over the years. Did they confirm that the broken straps occurred prior to or after impact? According to recorded data, at about 0957 while the airplane was still on the ramp in Bagram,
the captain was made aware of a broken strap found by one of the other crewmembers, and the cockpit crew had a discussion about a possible shift of the cargo load during landing in Bagram. There was additional discussion on re-securing the load prior to departure. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 4:13:48 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out? But as for the event. You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. 787's can go nearly vertical on take off. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 4:36:32 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
787's can go nearly vertical on take off. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out? But as for the event. You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. 787's can go nearly vertical on take off. With fancy camera work. They don't have a > 1:1 thrust to weight ratio, even empty. They can climb very steeply for a bit trading airspeed for altitude, but cannot sustain a true vertical climb. There was a video from a recent airshow that claimed vertical climb and it was debated at length there. General consensus is that it was still darn impressive compared to what we usually see out of an airliner, but that the camera angles made it look like a much steeper climb than it actually was. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 4:44:48 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Probably high hitched it or somebody pulled the hitch pin, that's why anytime before I leave I set the trailer brakes and give it a tug to make sure the trailers connected good. Either way bad on the driver for not doing a proper pre trip. Even then, sometimes the kingpin makes it out of the 5th wheel. After hook up, roll along, grab the johnny bar, and come to a stop. Somehow, it still came loose down the road. 5th wheel still in adjustment, and tested good. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 5:03:54 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The load shift findings are to be expected, but I was not expecting the elevator damage and subsequent pitch control issues. THIS. I wonder was the rearmost pallet blocked into place to prevent rearward movement? It sounds like that pallet with its MRAP got a good running start to go through the pressure bulkhead. If the pallets had been blocked by having empty pallets in place between the rearmost loaded pallet and the bulkhead, this accident should have not happened, unless the MRAP broke free of all the chains holding to the pallet. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 5:31:04 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Even then, sometimes the kingpin makes it out of the 5th wheel. After hook up, roll along, grab the johnny bar, and come to a stop. Somehow, it still came loose down the road. 5th wheel still in adjustment, and tested good. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Probably high hitched it or somebody pulled the hitch pin, that's why anytime before I leave I set the trailer brakes and give it a tug to make sure the trailers connected good. Either way bad on the driver for not doing a proper pre trip. Even then, sometimes the kingpin makes it out of the 5th wheel. After hook up, roll along, grab the johnny bar, and come to a stop. Somehow, it still came loose down the road. 5th wheel still in adjustment, and tested good. Ice and snow build up on a 5th wheel that's not cleared before hooking to a trailer can set a driver up for dropping a trailer. I had a couple try one winter, but an old timer had taught me to push in on the release handle and twice I was rewarded with the handle moving an couple of inches after what seemed to be a good hook. If I'd not done that, and had pulled out and turned right it would have been enough for the kingpin to move the .crossbar during the turn and allow the kingpin to come out, after which the bar would have popped back closed. I saw that happen to several other drivers that winter and nobody could figure out why until I pointed out the ice and snow buildup issue. After that during the winter I always kept a can of WD-40 in the cab so it stayed warm to use on 5th wheel locking mechanisms when hooking to a trailer and never had that problem again. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 5:42:23 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
THIS. I wonder was the rearmost pallet blocked into place to prevent rearward movement? It sounds like that pallet with its MRAP got a good running start to go through the pressure bulkhead. If the pallets had been blocked by having empty pallets in place between the rearmost loaded pallet and the bulkhead, this accident should have not happened, unless the MRAP broke free of all the chains holding to the pallet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The load shift findings are to be expected, but I was not expecting the elevator damage and subsequent pitch control issues. THIS. I wonder was the rearmost pallet blocked into place to prevent rearward movement? It sounds like that pallet with its MRAP got a good running start to go through the pressure bulkhead. If the pallets had been blocked by having empty pallets in place between the rearmost loaded pallet and the bulkhead, this accident should have not happened, unless the MRAP broke free of all the chains holding to the pallet. 727 begins takeoff roll,can moves back breaking all the locks and punching BIG holes on either side near engines 1 and 3. Pilots hear all this and abort takeoff. Can now rolls forward and hits hard against 9g net. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 5:43:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Mmmmm... not to further derail... but I remember this take-off growl fondly. You truly have to experience it in person to get the full effect...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 5:49:56 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mmmmm... not to further derail... but I remember this take-off growl fondly. You truly have to experience it in person to get the full effect...  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiuhUR0jpJkUsed to load that one all the time. Along with the 6 others. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 5:51:37 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's 803DH. Buh-bye, gone to the great ramp in the sky. Used to load that one all the time. Along with the 6 others. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Mmmmm... not to further derail... but I remember this take-off growl fondly. You truly have to experience it in person to get the full effect... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiuhUR0jpJkUsed to load that one all the time. Along with the 6 others. Those were awesome planes man. I loaded one for UPS before the B757 started making that run (which is now a 767). |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 5:52:38 PM EDT
[#15]
soo..basically... 'Secure that shit, Hudson.'
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 6:00:52 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those were awesome planes man. I loaded one for UPS before the B757 started making that run (which is now a 767). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mmmmm... not to further derail... but I remember this take-off growl fondly. You truly have to experience it in person to get the full effect... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiuhUR0jpJkUsed to load that one all the time. Along with the 6 others. Those were awesome planes man. I loaded one for UPS before the B757 started making that run (which is now a 767). |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 6:19:08 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Mmmmm... not to further derail... but I remember this take-off growl fondly. You truly have to experience it in person to get the full effect... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiuhUR0jpJkI was watching this thinking "Damn, that looks familiar... I'm pretty sure that's the A2 alleyway in LAX." Then my suspicions were confirmed.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 6:27:45 PM EDT
[#18]
I'm in awe every time I watch this video.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 6:45:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Those were awesome planes man. I loaded one for UPS before the B757 started making that run (which is now a 767). Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Mmmmm... not to further derail... but I remember this take-off growl fondly. You truly have to experience it in person to get the full effect... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiuhUR0jpJk That's 803DH. Buh-bye, gone to the great ramp in the sky. Used to load that one all the time. Along with the 6 others. Those were awesome planes man. I loaded one for UPS before the B757 started making that run (which is now a 767). The good old Stretch 8. I recall watching one in Delta colors at Jacksonville, International as a kid. Shut down on the taxiway and towed in, then towed it back out like the video. In pre-747 times it was just too long to be maneuvered on the ramps of the day. Dealt with several Kalitta Air crews flying them through McGuire on grocery runs to Thule Greenland. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 6:46:25 PM EDT
[#20]
Related oldie
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 7:04:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
cookie sheet pallets. here's the floor. See those things in the middle? Those are the pallet rails. The floor is made of fiberglass. http://www.check-6.com/gallery/img/airliners/boeing_747-400_g_hall.jpg Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. So what were the straps attached to? cookie sheet pallets. here's the floor. See those things in the middle? Those are the pallet rails. The floor is made of fiberglass. http://www.check-6.com/gallery/img/airliners/boeing_747-400_g_hall.jpg |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 7:36:30 PM EDT
[#22]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 7:58:46 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Damn. Quote HistoryHydraulic generator got loose on cat shot IIRC |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 8:20:18 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The load shift findings are to be expected, but I was not expecting the elevator damage and subsequent pitch control issues. Exact same here. Think it'd be even worse knowing you were helpless, than riding it in on your own while trying to pick up airspeed after the shift. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 8:26:02 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thanks for a bad memory. Cookie sheets. Always warped and never wanting to move on the rails. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Confused by the "inadequate restraint" comment. IIRC, this thing was strapped down...not restrained with chains. Did a strap break, followed by others in a zipper effect? Should have been chained down with the parking brake set. Can't chain vehicles to 747 deck due to lack of D rings. Cargo straps are only rated to 5k each. Yes, one broke on the previous flight and was actually pointed out. Loadmaster did nothing about it. So what were the straps attached to? cookie sheet pallets. here's the floor. See those things in the middle? Those are the pallet rails. The floor is made of fiberglass. http://www.check-6.com/gallery/img/airliners/boeing_747-400_g_hall.jpg I'm here for you bud. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 8:27:52 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
THIS. I wonder was the rearmost pallet blocked into place to prevent rearward movement? It sounds like that pallet with its MRAP got a good running start to go through the pressure bulkhead. If the pallets had been blocked by having empty pallets in place between the rearmost loaded pallet and the bulkhead, this accident should have not happened, unless the MRAP broke free of all the chains holding to the pallet. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The load shift findings are to be expected, but I was not expecting the elevator damage and subsequent pitch control issues. THIS. I wonder was the rearmost pallet blocked into place to prevent rearward movement? It sounds like that pallet with its MRAP got a good running start to go through the pressure bulkhead. If the pallets had been blocked by having empty pallets in place between the rearmost loaded pallet and the bulkhead, this accident should have not happened, unless the MRAP broke free of all the chains holding to the pallet. No chains. All straps. 24 to be exact (and one had already snapped). You have 18 tons of steel slam into a bulkhead, it's not going to survive. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 8:57:58 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Unfucking real. This guy was BEGGING to kill people  Quote HistoryQuoted:
During the fuel stop in Bagram, the cockpit crew was notified of a damaged strap and a possible
load shift on the main deck of the accident airplane. To secure the pallets to the main deck of the B747-400, the accident loadmaster had told the Camp Bastion loaders to secure the vehicles using 5,000 pound rated straps. According to the Camp Bastion loaders, the accident loadmaster told them to secure the 12-ton MATVs with a total of 24 straps, and secure the 18-ton Cougars with a total of 26 straps. Unfucking real. This guy was BEGGING to kill people Not a loadmastef and I was told years ago to never do math in public, for good reason, so i'm not tracking--why was that the wrong answer? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 10:18:26 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
SMDH. Also, 747s can carry a fuckton more than even a C5. C5 have 36 pallet positions, 747s have 42. Fun fact: There's also an MOU that DOD has with various civilian carriers (called CRAF). During war time we can call on civilian airlines to move our cargo/passengers if needed. Remember in Jarhead, the scene with all the civilian 747s off loading passengers? That's CRAF. Civil Reserve Air Fleet if memory serves. I know a few people that work for AMC. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 10:34:56 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is probably what it looked like on the inside http://s7.postimg.org/tjj48000b/100113_F_0571_C_004.jpg The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o618/Mti1Wg/DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg those 2" straps aren't going to hold shit
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 10:50:27 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. I've been on small commuter aircraft where they tell people to move seats to redistribute the weight to keep from being ass or nose heavy... or for assholes not lining up in the back of the plane by the bathroom. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Someone here was theorizing that it had something to do with a ton of weight going all the way aft during take off. I guess they were right. Really must have sucked to be in the cockpit on take off and have no control over your aircrafts pitch. This. I've been on small commuter aircraft where they tell people to move seats to redistribute the weight to keep from being ass or nose heavy... or for assholes not lining up in the back of the plane by the bathroom. We lost a C 23 Sherpa in GA that they thought the cause of the crash was people lined up for the pisser in the rear and then they hit turbulence. Was OK till it was upset some, and at that point non recoverable. Aviator |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 10:55:42 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was a bad day. I was working at the passenger terminal when it went down. Shook our building and we all ran out to see what the hell had happened. Then came the announcement over comms that a 747 had gone down. Not 30 minutes later the Taliban was claiming they had shot it down. I had all kinds of people running up to me asking if their people were on the jet. BGen Gustella (the base commander) was pissed as fuck when he found out about the vid being posted, and ordered a 72 hour com blackout. No websites outside of .mil sites were able to be visited. Thankfully (silver lining for me here) none of my guys laid a hand on that jet. It was all contractors. Even so, in the end the load master had to sign off on it, not to mention the pilots. The pilots should've been able to trust the load masters assesment. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 11:03:40 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
How were they able to determin that from the crash site with everything destroyed? http://s3.amazonaws.com/media.wbur.org/wordpress/12/files/2013/06/0624_twa-reconstruction.jpg Sadly, Flight 800 happened 19 years ago tonight. 7/17/1996.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 11:12:13 PM EDT
[#33]
I flew in to BAF two days after that, saw the wreckage all over the side of the runway.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/17/2015 11:55:35 PM EDT
[#34]
Several years ago I used to fly on demand freight Part 135. We used to fly various auto parts around the country and up to Canada. Most of what we flew wasn't overly heavy and we'd normally volume out before we weighed out. With that said, we did get one pickup of 3-4 (it's been so long I can't recall the exact number) Diesel engines. We were flying a Shorts 360-300. Great bird, even though it doesn't go fast and probably won't win a beauty contest.
With that said, as we were loading these engines, load shift was constantly on my mind. I used every strap we had to belt those down as tight as I could. Even having done that, I could feel them a bit when we rotated. It was a bit creepy. I can't imagine what the crew of the 7-4 felt as they were leaving Bagram. RIP.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 12:41:49 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think I remember reading about how the straps were tied in different lengths thus making the load ratings different for each strap. Then when they took off they think one strap broke then causing a domino effect on the rest of the straps? It depends on the angle of the strap as well, they are rated at certain percentages at certain angles. Aviator |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 1:00:22 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Several years ago I used to fly on demand freight Part 135. We used to fly various auto parts around the country and up to Canada. Most of what we flew wasn't overly heavy and we'd normally volume out before we weighed out. With that said, we did get one pickup of 3-4 (it's been so long I can't recall the exact number) Diesel engines. We were flying a Shorts 360-300. Great bird, even though it doesn't go fast and probably won't win a beauty contest. With that said, as we were loading these engines, load shift was constantly on my mind. I used every strap we had to belt those down as tight as I could. Even having done that, I could feel them a bit when we rotated. It was a bit creepy. I can't imagine what the crew of the 7-4 felt as they were leaving Bagram. RIP. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 1:18:18 AM EDT
[#37]
Gif'd it
Removed it - T7 |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 2:26:40 AM EDT
[#38]
Fundummy, why the fuck would make a gif of the deaths of 7 crewmembers.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 2:29:22 AM EDT
[#39]
Yeah, seems a little inappropriate.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 2:32:03 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Fundummy, why the fuck would make a gif of the deaths of 7 crewmembers. How's it any different than a youtube video? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 2:35:23 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How's it any different than a youtube video? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Fundummy, why the fuck would make a gif of the deaths of 7 crewmembers. How's it any different than a youtube video? I can chose not to watch a youtube. I can chose not to marginalize the deaths of good men trying to do their best to support those that chose to defend us. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 2:39:32 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryWow that sucked. Read some of the comments at the video from some of the people who saw it from the deck. The catapult launch looked pretty hard also. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 2:44:56 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The load shift findings are to be expected, but I was not expecting the elevator damage and subsequent pitch control issues. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 2:59:07 AM EDT
[#44]
    An MRAP vehicle being loaded on the accident flight 29 April 2013. http://airsoc.com/articles/view/id/55a5cf14313944e0518b4569/ntsb-finds-damage-from-inadequately-secured-cargo-caused-boeing-747-crash-in-bagram-afghanistan Crew members. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2335148/Bragram-747-cargo-plane-crash-MRAP-vehicles-plane-carrying-broke-free-straps-causing-crash.html |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 4:08:47 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This is probably what it looked like on the inside http://s7.postimg.org/tjj48000b/100113_F_0571_C_004.jpg The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o618/Mti1Wg/DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg Might be a dumb question but why doesn't the 747 have the type of D-Rings the c18 has instead of these ones? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 4:24:16 AM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Might be a dumb question but why doesn't the 747 have the type of D-Rings the c18 has instead of these ones? this and after the accident are they going to change that? |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 5:23:16 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
those 2" straps aren't going to hold shit Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
This is probably what it looked like on the inside http://s7.postimg.org/tjj48000b/100113_F_0571_C_004.jpg The rings on the side are the ONLY source of tie down points on the jet that i'm aware of. They're not rated for much. http://i1150.photobucket.com/albums/o618/Mti1Wg/DSC_0091_zps56172ba8.jpeg those 2" straps aren't going to hold shit |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 5:47:24 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
soo..basically... 'Secure that shit, Hudson.' Exactly. Last thing I EVER want to do is call "Reject Load" before the takeoff roll ("GO" call). That ultimately means I, as the Loadmaster, fucked up. The USAF -9 loading manual for the C-130 calls for all cargo to have 3Gs of forward restraint, 1.5Gs of lateral and aft restraint, and 2Gs of vertical restraint. So if I have a 26,000 pound vehicle, I need 78,000 pounds of forward restraint. That requires eight 10,000 pound chains and devices, and that's only if the chains are going straight forward. If you add any angularity to the chain, it "de-rates" the effective restraint of the chain. There's a mathematical formula we use to determine the effective restraint of chains attached to cargo, and its always a question asked on your annual check ride. But when I'm loading, I don't have time to whip out the tape measure and calculator, so I would add two more 10,000 chains to ensure I am WAY OVER the minimum needed restraint. A single chain or strap is capable of providing forward/aft, lateral, and vertical restraint to a piece of cargo, but is limited in its actual effective restraint in those three directions of force. So in essence, a 10,000 pound rated chain may only be providing 5,000 pounds of actual restraint based on the angle of the chain going up, forward, and across from the floor ring to the cargo. We only carry cargo straps rated for 5,000 pounds. We are allowed to restrain "lightweight vehicles" like ATVs using straps only, but for anything else... chains and devices. The C-17 and C-5 guys carry 25,000 pound chains and devices as standard, cause they haul some big shit. I guess my point is any loadmaster worth his salt makes damn sure his load is secured and that there's no was in hell it's going to shift during takeoff, shitty weather, tactical flight maneuvering, or landing. Those pictures of the strapped MRAPS make me cringe and shake my head every time I see them. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 6:09:24 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
787's can go nearly vertical on take off. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I find it amazing that the thing almost had enough thrust to hold its own straight up and down. What do those engines put out? But as for the event. You can always trade kinetic energy for potential energy in some planes, to an extent. There are just a few like the F-16, F-15, F-22, F-35, and F-18 which have a thrust to weight ratio greater than 1. On other planes, like this 747, once there isn't enough air flow over the wings to produce enough lift, all bets are off. There wasn't enough altitude (trading that potential energy for kinetic energy) to get enough air moving over the wings again. With no elevator and rudder control, being say at 40,000 feet would have just prolonged the inevitable anyway. If some of those straps had remained intact for the nose up part of that "flight", there is no guarantee they would have held for any nose down type flight and they could have "zippered", just as easily sending an MRAP or two right through the cockpit. A lightly-loaded B757 cargo hauler will go seemingly nearly vertical. I watched one nearly hit the tail skid on rotation and then climb like a bat out of hell. But yes... the F18 is well known for its trust-to-weight ratio. Some aerobatic planes seem to be able to hang off a prop for a while too. 787's can go nearly vertical on take off. You have no idea what you're talking about. You saw a video with some tricky camera angles and a very lightweight plane with no cargo and very little fuel. |
|
|
|
Posted: 7/19/2015 4:12:11 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I can chose not to watch a youtube. I can chose not to marginalize the deaths of good men trying to do their best to support those that chose to defend us. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fundummy, why the fuck would make a gif of the deaths of 7 crewmembers. How's it any different than a youtube video? I can chose not to watch a youtube. I can chose not to marginalize the deaths of good men trying to do their best to support those that chose to defend us. Beansay, no one " marginalized " anything. Welcome to Planet Earth. All kinds of nasty stuff happens everyday, I wonder how you've shielded yourself of reality - especially in a gun forum. so, complain - and the mods remove the gif. happy now? |
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
