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Posted: 7/9/2023 6:17:50 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what I have read, chemical weapons are not that useful. They make good terror weapons but do not have much tactical use. In WW1 they achieved nothing with them despite extensive use by both sides. I am definitely glad the old stock was destroyed due to the significant risk of leaks and accidents. The binary agents were much more stable but not without their own problems. Lingering area denial is what I have heard would be the modern use |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 6:28:52 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: From what I have read, chemical weapons are not that useful. Against experienced troops they're nothing but a pain in the ass for both sides. The element of surprise can be exploited but historically it hasn't been. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 6:52:11 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That’s great. We are leading the way! Rah Rah! Is any other country complying? Is there any verification? If some one used their stockpile on us, we are phukt. We will have no retaliation in kind. Thanks Joe for handing us over so easily. Don’t spend it all in one place. Really surprised we destroyed them instead of giving them to Zelenski. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 6:52:56 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Against experienced troops they're nothing but a pain in the ass for both sides. The element of surprise can be exploited but historically it hasn't been. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: From what I have read, chemical weapons are not that useful. Against experienced troops they're nothing but a pain in the ass for both sides. The element of surprise can be exploited but historically it hasn't been. Yep. Operating in a contaminated environment is a SOB. If you get attacked with no warning it's ugly. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 6:59:37 PM EST
[#5]
I dont know where the last one was destroyed, but I think they finished incinerating the last one at Dugway many years ago.
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Posted: 7/9/2023 7:17:17 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The solution to pollution is dilution. That's the scary part. Mustard does not dissolve in water. I'm pretty sure the others don't either. (or rain would render it worthless) There are several munition dump areas off the Gulf coast. Some in water as shallow as 100 feet. You can find them on old (1960) charts but they are not shown on modern day ones. No one has a clue what is in them and the position is approximate in any case. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 7:20:13 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the scary part. Mustard does not dissolve in water. I'm pretty sure the others don't either. (or rain would render it worthless) There are several munition dump areas off the Gulf coast. Some in water as shallow as 100 feet. You can find them on old (1960) charts but they are not shown on modern day ones. No one has a clue what is in them and the position is approximate in any case. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The solution to pollution is dilution. That's the scary part. Mustard does not dissolve in water. I'm pretty sure the others don't either. (or rain would render it worthless) There are several munition dump areas off the Gulf coast. Some in water as shallow as 100 feet. You can find them on old (1960) charts but they are not shown on modern day ones. No one has a clue what is in them and the position is approximate in any case. Yeah but bacteria will eat it just like it eats the oil seeps in the gulf. You really can't pollute the ocean or the atmosphere. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 7:21:25 PM EST
[#8]
According to Wikipedia fishermen have been fucked up by mustard gas rounds dropped in the area of Dogger Bank. The shells crack open and the contents spill out turning into an amber like substance.
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Posted: 7/9/2023 7:22:08 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: These shells were old….and getting older. Many had began to leak. I lived and played just outside the incinerator in Tooele, Utah. Tooele had the largest stockpile of these weapons in the country. Sirens installed for miles around…you know-just in case. Good riddance to those nasty pos weapons. The shells/rockets have been leaking for 25 years plus at BGAD. Good riddance. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 7:23:26 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That's the scary part. Mustard does not dissolve in water. I'm pretty sure the others don't either. (or rain would render it worthless) There are several munition dump areas off the Gulf coast. Some in water as shallow as 100 feet. You can find them on old (1960) charts but they are not shown on modern day ones. No one has a clue what is in them and the position is approximate in any case. I'm working at the plant right now. The biotreatment process is insane. It's a long ass process. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 7:31:16 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm working at the plant right now. The biotreatment process is insane. It's a long ass process. I just want to say thank you. Why did they go with biotreatment over incineration for these? |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 8:08:58 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, then let me ask you just one question. Would you be okay sleeping in a room with a pallet of mustard gas artillery rounds that were manufactured in 1943? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'd even be okay demilling them and keeping a Glowmar response. Announcing we're getting rid of them seems foolish. Ok, then let me ask you just one question. Would you be okay sleeping in a room with a pallet of mustard gas artillery rounds that were manufactured in 1943? Probably safer than a night sleeping in Detroit or New Orleans..... |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 8:12:01 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That VX will have come in handy for a couple hundred million screaming Chinamen here in a few years… The stockpile we had in Indiana at NECD was supposedly all destroyed, 20 years ago now |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 8:42:05 PM EST
[#14]
Went to school at EKU, 98-02, Bluegrass was and still is interesting.
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Posted: 7/9/2023 8:47:40 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: True, but their contents are still quite dangerous. The US builds far flung factories full of battle robots to dispose of a few hundred thousand shells. The French just stack their chemical UXO between antitank mines for a good burn when they detonate them on the beach.  Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: These shells were really old, probably not all that viable in combat. Just for the record. True, but their contents are still quite dangerous. The US builds far flung factories full of battle robots to dispose of a few hundred thousand shells. The French just stack their chemical UXO between antitank mines for a good burn when they detonate them on the beach. Automotive exhaust is nothing more than H2O and CO2. But, it isn't really, now is it? |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 8:50:09 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Lingering area denial is what I have heard would be the modern use |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 8:57:26 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just want to say thank you. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I'm working at the plant right now. The biotreatment process is insane. It's a long ass process. I just want to say thank you. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 8:59:43 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Primarily based on vapor pressure of the chosen agent. A group had gallons of some of the most persistent agent they could whip up, deployed in a confined space, and still didn't really kill anyone.... I really, really want to go to the live agent training at Anniston. OTOH... chlorine, chlorine makes my butt pucker just a little. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 9:10:24 PM EST
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I just want to say... ask him to go by the gift shop. I want a few... things I must admit I kinda want some small part off one of those aforementioned 1943 vintage shells. Provided it was completely decontaminated and inert, naturally. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 9:11:20 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryFilmed at Ft. McClellan AL. Nothing like popping live VX and letting float over post. |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 9:25:09 PM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I must admit I kinda want some small part off one of those aforementioned 1943 vintage shells. Provided it was completely decontaminated and inert, naturally. leave it in the sun, or in the beach water. Make mine ert as fuck, please I want the elegant string of pearls |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 9:57:17 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I want the elegant string of pearls Oh you mean the string of funky Loc-Nars!  The Loc-Nar Discovery - Heavy Metal (1981) HD I have no doubt that whoever came up with that idea saw this and was like. "You know what would be really cool? Load 50 of those in a missile and launch it right at San Francisco." |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 10:05:34 PM EST
[#23]
SARIN GAS effects on fortified bunkers
 Chemical Warfare - Penetration of Fortified Targets by Sarin (GB),US Army Video |
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Posted: 7/9/2023 10:56:19 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: meh leave it in the sun, or in the beach water. Make mine ert as fuck, please I want the elegant string of pearls Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I must admit I kinda want some small part off one of those aforementioned 1943 vintage shells. Provided it was completely decontaminated and inert, naturally. leave it in the sun, or in the beach water. Make mine ert as fuck, please I want the elegant string of pearls We bake the munition bodies at 1500 degrees. Then they go get cut up and recycled. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:48:55 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We bake the munition bodies at 1500 degrees. Then they go get cut up and recycled. It may suck in real life, but that's an AWESOME job! Good on you. Tell us about what you can, I'd love to hear about it. You ever get comfortable working in that environment? I know from handling explosives, it can start to become... routine, then that's when people get bit. I was never scared, but I also never poked the elephant, ever. How often did you see leakers in the bunkers? You ever have to use the injectors? Do you have dumb co-workers? Thanks for posting in here! |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:55:09 AM EST
[#26]
Just send them to Ukraine.
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:55:36 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh you mean the string of funky Loc-Nars!  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CbzZcQNWv3YI have no doubt that whoever came up with that idea saw this and was like. "You know what would be really cool? Load 50 of those in a missile and launch it right at San Francisco." |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 10:03:20 AM EST
[#28]
After WWII, my dad worked almost exclusively at NBC facilities.
When he died at 53, he was eaten up on the inside with cancer and covered with rashes on the outside. I will always believe that his service in the Army killed. When he died four years after his medical discharge I was named as a War Orphan. The benefits helped get me through college. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 10:05:57 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It probably would have been cheaper to give them to Ukraine than to safely dismantle them. Cheaper perhaps, but very dumb. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 11:43:04 AM EST
[#30]
Chemical and nuclear weapons should only be disposed of by using them on third world countries.
It's a shame to invest billions into that stuff and then let it go to waste. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 5:45:26 PM EST
[#31]
Chemical weapons didn’t fit our way of fighting post 1919. Tear gas was the exception.
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:31:37 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Chemical weapons didn't fit our way of fighting post 1919. Tear gas was the exception. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 9:54:21 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: . remember Bowman flipping the M1025? how about that SGT in CO HQ with orange skin and white hair... or what happened to Scrappy? . I can't remember that SGT's name but I can see his smile shining through that tan. I heard Scrappy was killed in a car accident in '91, I think. He was my assistant squad leader. I still think about him now and again. |
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Posted: 7/10/2023 10:05:01 PM EST
[#34]
It will be interesting to see who will be the next undeclared nation to use them.
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Posted: 7/10/2023 10:33:16 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are rumors that the Soviet plan to invade western Europe involved massive use of chemical weapons in order to allow intact capture of Allied fuel and other supplies to minimize Soviet logistic requirements for the invasion to the Atlantic. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Chemical weapons didn't fit our way of fighting post 1919. Tear gas was the exception. Not rumors, those are factual plans along w limited low yield nukes and some biologicals in the extreme rear area. The US response options varied, but nukes were always the end result. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 12:02:06 AM EST
[#36]
Is VX still 'state of the art' for Chem or was it surpassed by other agents?
All my chem info here comes from The Rock.  |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 12:35:30 AM EST
[#37]
Nothing I know of that was mass produced exceeded VX in lethality.
And the stuff was kept in more secure containers than those pretty little glass balls. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:07:11 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nothing I know of that was mass produced exceeded VX in lethality. And the stuff was kept in more secure containers than those pretty little glass balls. Novichok stuff might be nastier. Russia probably fairly kicked our ass in chemical and biological warfare capabilities. ETA- not giving a fuck how many you kill in the process and entire secret towns probably helped there. 
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:09:12 AM EST
[#39]
 US Destroys Last of Chemical Weapons Stockpile | VOA News |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:21:57 AM EST
[#40]
Good
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Posted: 7/11/2023 1:54:16 AM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Just send them to Ukraine. Not at all. They should be destroyed. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 2:20:18 AM EST
[#42]
If you want to be scared out of your mind, might I suggest this.
A HIGHER FORM OF KILLING The US really didn't have anything surpassing VX as far as lethality, well at least unclassified. All the new work was going into binary systems. And the WW1 guys. Unbelievable what they experienced. Amazing how the human race can be so savage. "Chlorine Trains"  Attached File |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 3:40:47 AM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Johnson Island wasn’t the only stockpile. I did a lot of work at the Pine Bluff Arsenal and they had plenty of their own.  I think Anniston, Al had another demo sight. Used to work with a man and woman that had worked at Johnston Atoll. Not sure if they were typical of the people who worked there, but both were pretty squirrelly. Sounded like a divorce breeding ground. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 3:48:39 AM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: They call it the "Iron Harvest." Unexploded bombs, mortar and artillery shells, and occasionally mustard gas shells. https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/65/2016/11/7aYRdhhh.jpe Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: The French still dig them up in their yards. https://www.thevintagenews.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/65/2016/11/7aYRdhhh.jpe I read an article in the late 90s in Smithsonian Magazine about the French team that does UXO disposals. A number of them were getting killed on the job yearly according to the article. At the time, around two dozen farmers were being killed plowing into them. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 3:58:00 AM EST
[#45]
Several years ago I was involved in the engineering design of the facility in Anniston, Al.
Back then people knew it would take a long time to dismantle all the chemical weapons. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:07:29 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not rumors, those are factual plans along w limited low yield nukes and some biologicals in the extreme rear area. The US response options varied, but nukes were always the end result. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:29:22 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I called them rumors, because the person telling me that did so in the late 80's before the wall fell and said it was found out through a defector. Gas everything was the plan as stated and the purpose was to capture stockpiles largely intact. I considered the story believable and even logical at least in part, but I always wanted to see something more documented. Have any interesting links? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Not rumors, those are factual plans along w limited low yield nukes and some biologicals in the extreme rear area. The US response options varied, but nukes were always the end result. I'd thought "Seven Days to The River Rhine," had numerous planned early use of chemicals, but most of what I'm seeing now of secondary sources discussing the Polish document releases, concentrates on the widescale early tactical nuclear weapon use. 7.6 megatons, supposedly, at 10-20 kt a time. But start there. Thing is, chemicals slow everything down. Seems counterintuitive if you're looking for a blazingly fast blitz across Germany. |
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Posted: 7/11/2023 6:35:19 PM EST
[#48]
Of course it’s good we got rid of this. It’s wartime production mustard gas according to the article. It doesn’t have much use today and it’s dangerous to keep around. There’s much more capable chemical agents now. The 4th generation chemical agents are truly terrifying. Novichok is a thing of nightmares
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Posted: 7/23/2023 3:56:22 PM EST
[#49]
Cleans even the filthiest of trenches.
 Peggy that's the recipe for mustard gas (original in pinned and desc.) |
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Posted: 7/23/2023 4:10:07 PM EST
[#50]
Nope, I believe that we should avoid unjust wars, but when a war is truly just, we should fight it with every weapon and with as much violence and brutality that we can muster.
I'm pro-chemical weapons, pro-landmines, and pro-cluster bombs. Hell, I'd be pro-biological weapons if one could be designed to specifically only infect the enemy. I believe in firebombing their cities, raping their women, and torturing their POWs. I reject the entire concept of a "war crime" when fighting a just and defensive war. The goal should be to win the war by any means while minimizing our own casualties - I would have nuked Japan if the alternative had been the death of just a single American serviceman. The morality of collateral damage falls squarely on the shoulders of the son of a bitch who started the war. |
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