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Quoted: Clearly he is, and it’s working. If the guy didn’t have to pull the trigger appreciably back to make it happen it would move my needle. Is it good? No. Is it damning evidence? No, he has to pull the trigger back. Yeah, admittedly, I don't have time to watch a 40-min vid that doesn't pertain to me as a non-Sig owner, but does he explain how holstered 320s/M18s would have enough pressure applied to them to discharge? |
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Quoted: 20lb bond paper is typically 0.004 inches thick https://www.staples-3p.com/s7/is/image/Staples/sp167072084_sc7?wid=700&hei=700 |
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Quoted: I don't have anything to measure with, I just used a screw to remove the take up like he did. Still not gonna carry it, mine is the first batch and I sent it for the upgrade. I didn't use primed cases, but it never fired moving the slide. I am not a denier, I just couldn't get mine to go off. Quoted: Quoted: So you have a good one. Praise GOD. Still not gonna carry it, mine is the first batch and I sent it for the upgrade. I didn't use primed cases, but it never fired moving the slide. I am not a denier, I just couldn't get mine to go off. How many rounds do you have under it? My issue is once its got some use under it like in the military. Yeah, they're going to be bad news. |
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Quoted: You guys go ahead and dump your P320s. I'll keep mine. In 50 years whatever Only Fans model I bequeath my estate to will be sitting on some rare and valuable pistols. They will be only rare because nobody wants one of those giant turds. I'm sure it'll sit next to the beanie baby collection. |
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Quoted: How do we know the YouTuber isn't making videos for clicks? How can the gun be manipulated to "fire uncommanded" as some are calling it? How many more have to be shot or die before people believe there is a problem? |
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Quoted: I need you to understand what you are saying here: he's pulling the trigger, which literally defeats at least one safety. A safety that clearly doesn't allow it to fire if it isn't defeated. If you are pulling the trigger, how are you surprised if it discharges. Consider this. |
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Quoted: It seems like every three days, we get "proof" from OP as to what's happening in a different fashion from a different guntoober. Yes, I own several P320s. Am I carrying them now? No. Am I interested in what is causing this? Yes. But it could be several things, from an actual safety issue to retarded guntoobers doing retarded guntoober things. The S:N ratio in these threads is hot garbage, unfortunately. There is smoke and fire with the P320. You know it and I know it. I don't see Sig p320 owners warning anyone about their gun's faults. So when you step up, I'll step back. I'll wait. 
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Quoted: There is smoke and fire with the P320. You know it and I know it. I don't see Sig p320 owners warning anyone about their gun's faults. So when you step up, I'll step back. I'll wait. Quoted: Quoted: It seems like every three days, we get "proof" from OP as to what's happening in a different fashion from a different guntoober. Yes, I own several P320s. Am I carrying them now? No. Am I interested in what is causing this? Yes. But it could be several things, from an actual safety issue to retarded guntoobers doing retarded guntoober things. The S:N ratio in these threads is hot garbage, unfortunately. There is smoke and fire with the P320. You know it and I know it. I don't see Sig p320 owners warning anyone about their gun's faults. So when you step up, I'll step back. I'll wait. Lol, look two posts up. |
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Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. |
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“Muh 1mm!!” “Muh weak return spring!!” These idiotic versions of “facts” are most likely helping SIG and the 320 more than “exposing” fatal flaws because of their sheer stupidity. Anyone pulling a trigger ANY distance is someone trying to gain attention and manipulate a so-called test rather than exposing a safety issue. The weak return spring crap is just confirmation bias until it can proven to be a real issue rather than another excuse. I have 0 SIGs, just Glocks, and have no use for a 320. I do think there is a safety issue with some of them but the above “test” is stupid. Attached File |
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Quoted: There is smoke and fire with the P320. You know it and I know it. I don't see Sig p320 owners warning anyone about their gun's faults. So when you step up, I'll step back. I'll wait. Quoted: Quoted: It seems like every three days, we get "proof" from OP as to what's happening in a different fashion from a different guntoober. Yes, I own several P320s. Am I carrying them now? No. Am I interested in what is causing this? Yes. But it could be several things, from an actual safety issue to retarded guntoobers doing retarded guntoober things. The S:N ratio in these threads is hot garbage, unfortunately. There is smoke and fire with the P320. You know it and I know it. I don't see Sig p320 owners warning anyone about their gun's faults. So when you step up, I'll step back. I'll wait. I THINK something MAY be occurring. But until we know WHAT is occurring using the scientific method, no, I'm not going to beat the drum about it in the same fashion that you do. |
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Quoted: the guy is literally pulling the trigger this is retarded He is not pressing the trigger fully. He is placing the trigger in its reset stage and then manipulating the slide. It is essentially in Single Action mode. go pick up a 1911 and with the safety off twist the slide. Did it go off, no, if it is working properly. |
Sitting here looking at the P220 I just bought, I have shot the shit out of this thing, bought from a friend. But this pistol is damn near a work of art that will reliably put .45 acp rounds into the same hole at 20 yards if you are good enough. Hard to believe its the same company that engineered a pistol that you can't safely carry in a fucking holster 
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Quoted: Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. Quoted: Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. |
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Quoted: Man, you could make bank sending a representative sample to an independent lab for testing and then posting the results on YouTube. I THINK something MAY be occurring. But until we know WHAT is occurring using the scientific method, no, I'm not going to beat the drum about it in the same fashion that you do. Null hypothesis; external forces that move the side and frame interface do not move the sear and striker interface. |
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Quoted: I think the P320 is a dangerous turd, and there is probably something to do with play in the parts between the upper and lower as a contributing factor in this. He keeps emphasizing “less than a millimeter!” but in mechanical terms that’s enormous. That’s 0.039”. That’s a lot. He might have something here if he pulled the trigger to the wall, released it, and then it would go off with slide manipulation. Likewise, if he could demonstrate a somewhat consistent method of the trigger staying back at the wall after it had been released that doesn’t involve a wood screw falling up into the trigger pocket. This is an interesting observation, but I don’t think it alone explains what’s going on. Agreed. This is a huge part of the puzzle, but we need a reliable way to test guns without messing with the trigger. |
Little update: I don’t think my example is a good one. I forgot, I’d replaced the trigger with an Apex.  Which made it a pretty short, sweet trigger. Every time I held the trigger back a bit and started jiggling the slide it just pulled the trigger back the rest of the way. That said, I’m not defending Sig on the P320 anymore. They need to figure their shit out, do a mandatory recall or buyback, and stand behind their products good, bad, or really bad. |
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Quoted: No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Touching the wall isn’t pulling the trigger. |
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Quoted: 0.09" is about three sheets of paper thick. Quoted: Quoted: Edmund measured it at 0.09 inches, which is more than 2mm, but I'm guessing his measurements are a bit more accurate than the guy in OP's video.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R0MpcFEXWhcDecimal points dude. Paper might be .003", certainly not .030". |
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Quoted: No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Agree. That was not simple pre-travel. |
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Quoted: Touching the wall isn’t pulling the trigger. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Touching the wall isn’t pulling the trigger. Did you even watch the video? "I'm pulling the trigger halfway through the firing sequence to simulate out of spec parts." |
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Bruce Gray is still out there carrying the water uphill, I suspect he could shoot himself in the balls and still would claim there's nothing wrong with them lol. https://www.instagram.com/reel/DMk7B7butYN/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== |
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Quoted: Did you even watch the video? "I'm pulling the trigger halfway through the firing sequence to simulate out of spec parts." Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Touching the wall isn’t pulling the trigger. Did you even watch the video? "I'm pulling the trigger halfway through the firing sequence to simulate out of spec parts." Yeah, I sure did. Go to 14:25 in the video. The P320 is hammered dogshit. ETA: He is only taking up the pre-travel and just touching the wall. The screw is basically just a set screw. He may not be following exacting protocols but no doubts can be had concerning his example is discharging **under conditions whereas no properly designed/functioning firearm should be. ETAx2: ** |
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Quoted: Little update: I don’t think my example is a good one. I forgot, I’d replaced the trigger with an Apex. Which made it a pretty short, sweet trigger. Every time I held the trigger back a bit and started jiggling the slide it just pulled the trigger back the rest of the way. That said, I’m not defending Sig on the P320 anymore. They need to figure their shit out, do a mandatory recall or buyback, and stand behind their products good, bad, or really bad. Attached File |
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Quoted: Sitting here looking at the P220 I just bought, I have shot the shit out of this thing, bought from a friend. But this pistol is damn near a work of art that will reliably put .45 acp rounds into the same hole at 20 yards if you are good enough. Hard to believe its the same company that engineered a pistol that you can't safely carry in a fucking holster Right! I can't even remember how much money I spent on gun rags back in the day oogling over a SIG on the front cover. My P220 and P228 are awesome guns. |
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I couldn't take the "ONE MM!" stuff any longer, so I didn't get all the way to the end. However, I'm wondering if he tried taking up the pre-travel and bumping into the wall, like he was with the screw, then removing the screw and manipulating the slide? Once that bit of movement has been imparted, does it remain an issue with the P320's FCU design? I don't know the specifics of the various "uncommanded discharges" that've happened, but my speculation from the bit of the video I got through is that perhaps the guns in question had been used just prior to the incidents, and subsequently discharged in the holster from minor contact/movement causing this slide movement he's demonstrating. I know I've personally been in situations involving having a suspect at gunpoint, finger on the trigger and just beginning to press, when the suspect then disarms and surrenders before any shots are actually fired. They ended fine, I wasn't armed with a P320, but if those issues of tolerance-stacking remain even after releasing the trigger (even if only partially, as getting the suspect into custody, reholstering, getting in and out of the squad, etc. could all exacerbate them with jostling the gun about in its holster) that could be at least part of the cause. Edit: spelling |
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Quoted: 0.09" is about three sheets of paper thick. 20 lb, letter size paper is .004" thick. 24 lb is .0045"thick. .09 Is 22.5 pages thick for the usual 20lb stock, but it's probably easier to visualize 3/32" which is .094" thick. 1 mm is .039" 2 mm is .079" None of those is alot, but I've never measured the movement on a series 70 or 80 1911 trigger. I bet someone here knows and hopefully they won't use paper thickness as a measure. |
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Yeah, no dog in this fight. Not a huge sig fan but not a hater either. I'm seeing a guy take up all the trigger travel then fuck with the slide and having it go off. Ok. That alone won't cause an AD. You'd need exceptionally sloppy tolerances, or wear, and weak trigger return springs along with just the right bump or drop. Now if you accept sloppy tolerances, or poor materials, inadequate springs and that particular design you have fucked up as a manufacturer. Lots of other manufacturers make guns that don't do that. This could be as simple as spec'ing stiffer springs that would change trigger feel, if SIG decided not to do that for market reasons that's a problem. That video is non conclusive drivel. Take up the pretravel on any firearm and then fuck with it and you're likely to have a problem. The real issue is if the required conditions can be present without the operator doing stupid shit, and it appears that is at least possible. Sig is going to have a bad time. How they design a plastic fantastic striker fired gun that is less safe than a series 70 1911 carried cocked and locked is impressive. Good job Sig. |
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Quoted: Makes me wonder "if" an aluminum or steel frame would help? Reduce fcu flex? Would a safety prevent the small movement of a worn return spring. Maybe adding slide rails out towards the muzzle would stop the flex too. Edit: That's what Glock did to fix the flashlight issue for the Ill. State Police. |
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Quoted: It seems like every three days, we get "proof" from OP as to what's happening in a different fashion from a different guntoober. Yes, I own several P320s. Am I carrying them now? No. Am I interested in what is causing this? Yes. But it could be several things, from an actual safety issue to retarded guntoobers doing retarded guntoober things. The S:N ratio in these threads is hot garbage, unfortunately. If there is ANY doubt... there is NO doubt. You're coping, and I get it, but bro you're nuts if you rely on a P320 for anything except an unloaded paperweight. Far too many better options exist in this world to willingly continue down this path. 
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Quoted: Yeah, I sure did. Go to 14:25 in the video. The P320 is hammered dogshit. ETA: He is only taking up the pre-travel and just touching the wall. The screw is basically just a set screw. He may not be following exacting protocols but no doubts can be had concerning his example is discharging **under conditions whereas no properly designed/functioning firearm should be. ETAx2: ** Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If you have to pull the trigger to show how the gun fires without pulling the trigger you may have a problem with your experiment. Yeah but that’s not what happened. Pre-travel was taken up. That’s all. No firearm, none, should be able to discharge by taking up pre-travel and wiggling the slide. No, that was more than pre-travel. It's clear by watching it and he even says so in the video. Touching the wall isn’t pulling the trigger. Did you even watch the video? "I'm pulling the trigger halfway through the firing sequence to simulate out of spec parts." Yeah, I sure did. Go to 14:25 in the video. The P320 is hammered dogshit. ETA: He is only taking up the pre-travel and just touching the wall. The screw is basically just a set screw. He may not be following exacting protocols but no doubts can be had concerning his example is discharging **under conditions whereas no properly designed/functioning firearm should be. ETAx2: ** You can literally watch the back of the slide drop down as he presses into the trigger pull, as 320s do. You're letting your bias override your integrity. |
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Quoted: They can't be fixed... If it was a simple fix, Sig would have done that already. The whole debacle, and the way that Sig Saure has handled it will be the end of the company. There is no way they survive this. |
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Quoted: In one of the other threads a couple of guys said Sig has so many military contracts all over the world for so many different items that this can't destroy them. I have no idea if that's true. Quoted: Quoted: I don't see how Sig survives this. Really depends on how spread the shitty QC and engineering is across the line; if this same type of fiasco comes up with the NGSW contract I’d bet they’ll be history |
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Quoted: In one of the other threads a couple of guys said Sig has so many military contracts all over the world for so many different items that this can't destroy them. I have no idea if that's true. They'll be around, maybe nobody will buy their stuff on the civilian side but that's a german gun company thing anyway. Their gov contracts are the money. |