User Panel
Posted: 6/24/2007 8:06:23 AM EDT
I had seen a while back that the military pulled a bunch of M113s out of storage in Kuwait, up-armored them, and sent them into Iraq. How is their track record? I figured they'd do pretty well against the insurgents.
|
|
I've always wondered this myself. I noticed the Brits use it on the Striker. Is it's purpose to detonate projectiles before they hit the vehicle? Can't really think of any other reason for it. |
|
|
Nothing about the M113 is good. I have driven many,many,many,many M113A2,A3 and M577s. I have fixed and broken the track on that piece of shit so many times that If I have to do it again I will gouge my fucking eyes out. I know that Satan has a special room in hell for me were I will do nothing but break and repair track at NTC for fucking ever.
It is damn hard to get to anything in the engine compartment without removing the fucking thing, the armor is poisonous when it burns and it is the slowest unarmored piece of shit in the ARMY. If I had to drive one in Iraq I would make my piece with god before hand. It is a rolling coffin. |
|
yes it is. |
||
|
Wow. |
|
|
If the charge hits the slant armor it burns way from the vehicle and lessens the plasma jets effect. |
||
|
I just watched it on Weaponology, Grate armor is used to defeat shaped charge explosions. For what they saud the optimum distance for the expolsion is 5". anything farther lessens the effect.
|
|
I had four on my TPE hand receipt when I go here last year. I asked the outgoing CDR what he used them for. His reply? PMCS practice. Recently a unit indicated they wanted them for gate and ECP use. Got them off the MEEL and the hand recipet and voila. No more. |
|
|
I've heard from military-type news media reports that the fine sand is really tough on the treads, and they are noisy.
|
|
Unless they are in alot better shape than the crap ones my guard unit got just before I got out. Worn out, maintainence intensive, under powered, under armoured POS. |
|
No need to sugar-coat it, tell us how you really feel Erick Z |
|
|
We rode our hard and put it away wet back in 91. We had to keep gallons of oil on hand it leaked so bad. The steering was shot. When we rolled into to the drop off point we had to pivot steer left to make a hard right turn...
|
|
Umm Americans? AFAIK we're the only ones using the slat armor on the stryker. |
||
|
Vito, Are those passive armour tiles? They do somewhat look like the type used on Marine Amtracs. |
|
|
even years ago it was a POS and everyone knew it,but still well used everywhere must be something there
|
|
No, an RPG is a HEAT round and the purpose of mesh disruptor armor is to break the projectile before detonation, making it into just an explosion at the most. Many times, the detonator circuit is broken, preventing all explosion. The copper cone is squished into a jet of high velocity copper BEFORE it touches the armor. The nose cone provides this stand-off distance and contains the inpulse generating device, sending a pulse of current to the detonator in the base. |
|||
|
The m113 is one of the most valued peices of armour on the civilian market and is the second most prolific peice of armour in the world, only behind the BMP-1 I beleive.
M113s are alluminum, right? |
|
Shaped charge/self-forming fragment weapons don't work that way. The explosives form the copper liner into a dense, carrot-shaped, extremely high speed projectile (>7000 fps) that punches through armor. But to form the carrot properly, it needs to detonate at a precise distance from the armor surface (distance = approx 3 to 3.5 times the warhead diameter). If the distance is too great or too close, the carrot doesn't form properly and armor will not be penetrated. The grate causes the RPG warhead to detonate too soon so the "carrot" deforms into a copper spray/blob before it impacts the armor. |
|||
|
UK - Striker US - Stryker Two completely different vehicles. US Stryker is wheeled, UK Striker is tracked, and so on. |
|||
|
Apparently these guys have some good things to say about how the M113 should be used, particularly when contrasting it with the Stryker and HUMVEEs. I'm just relaying the link. You guys make up your own minds. Scroll about halfway down, past the WWII stuff about General Gavin:
Link: M113 Here's the link to the homepage. I thought there was some very interesting reading on the site: Combat Reform |
|
The guy on CombatReform is a nutjob... Ask ManicMoran about that one.... |
|
|
Make the idiocy go away, mommy. |
|
|
What's idiotic about the opinions those guys have? |
||
|
|
Yes they're aluminum.
The only 113s I saw in Iraq were used as gates. Literally, the vehicle itself WAS the gate... |
|
During OIF I, my unit was making convoy runs through Fallujah in our un-armored M1025 Humvees. An enginner unit loaned us some M113s, with crews, to try to provide us with some armored protection. We gave the M113s back after one convoy run. The M113s were slow, not effective, and so loud that the insurgents could hear us coming from a long way off. We'd rather just go as fast as we could with the Humvees that stick to the slow speeds of the M113s....
|
|
Interesting observation. I was in an airborne unit and have never been inside an armored vehicle in my life - let alone in combat - so I'm interested in how people with experience perceive the Stryker, etc. |
|
|
Plenty of folks have already answered that in this very thread. The picture above is most telling. "these guys" is one guy and maybe a few straphangers. It might come as a surprise to you, but "Defense Review" is one guy as well. |
|||
|
I've never read Defense Review. However, regardless of whether it's written by 1 guy on Defense Review or 9 guys on ARfcom is immaterial to me. I'm looking at what was written. It appeared that his argument he was that refurbished M113s would be better in many cases than HUMVEEs. Plus, I think this was written back a couple of years ago when HUMVEEs were being lost more frequently. That's the reason I posted the link: to see if people here thought there was any merit to the idea of using refurbished M113s. We now know your opinion and I want to thank you for participating. |
|
|
Smart man. I only wish I could say the same. It's kind of like watching "The Crying Game." |
||
|
+1 |
||
|
I'm going to say that certain things have been glossed over. Armor is great but the concussive effects of such a massive blast would be, well, massive. "Ringing in the ears" would be more like several grade 3 concussions at the very least. Also you can see that it is rigged for tow, so obviously it could not move far under its own power (notice the 4 shredded tires). |
||
|
uhm, the Stryker is our vehicle, and yes, thats what it is used for. ETA NM, I are wrong |
||
|
I dont know...
I have run 113's/577's for years, and I cant say I care for them anymore then they work for moving troops into the training ranges... But I think If I had the room to run them, and the badguys already know you are in the area anyways, I would rather have one that has been upgraded in armor than a wheeled veh that was ment to be a pickup truck... YMMV. |
|
Note to self...don't fuck with Top. And THAT is how I survived the US Army. Keep on Top's good side and nothing to worry about. |
|||
|
I am real interested in this as my brother is just completing training as a driver in the latest(?) variant of the M113 in CDN armed forces use. 400hp? Top speed well into the fast armor territory. He wasn't concerned about the armor either.
Anybody got any info on the latest upgrades/variants of the M113? |
|
Walks on water |
|
|
I guess you missed my post about how they were loaned to us from the Engineers (who I think should be pretty good with keeping them running) I guess you also missed my post that had nothing to do with maintaneances issues, and that they were useless because they were slow, didn't offer much armor protection, and were so loud that people could hear us from miles away. I guess you missed it where I said we chose to use a M1025 Humvee armed with either a Mk-19 or a SAW. |
|||
|
|
||
|
I guess you missed the post where I said the M113 could walk on water, can your M1025 walk on water? I didn't think so. Next. |
|
|
If one looks at a RPG or LAW projectile, the widest diameter is usually the separation point of the HEAT warhead and the standoff cone (as mentioned above, HEAT needs a certain standoff distance to function properly). The tip of the of the standoff cone is usually a piezo crystal PD fuze but there are some specimens that use a true PD style fuze. The warhead that mashes itself onto armor before detonating is called a HESH or squash head projectile. It uses a different shaped-charge effect of send a shock-wave from the outside of the armor to the inside, on the inside the shock wave causes the metal to splinter off or more accurately spall. The effect on those inside is utterly devastating unless they have special laminated armor, it is highly effective on buildings and such in an urban environment. |
||||
|
All steel construction… |
|
|
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.