Quoted:
Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle,
Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch

[url]https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825

Army marksmanship video current era:

Instructor mentions weight forward of hips,  support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support.

http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg

Quoted:


Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees.

The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit.

Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling.

Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all!

Quoted:


I'm sure a cop from MN knows more about gunfighting than the US military after over a decade of war.

Quoted:
It was useful, until we started getting rifles that anyone can shoot to 1000.  Now it needs to be updates.  There is no reason to not expect a person to hit a 10 inch circle at 1000 prone supported.

And a 12 inch target at 600 offhand.

Quoted:
Different sling, different sights, but they still teach the fundamentals. NPOA, bone support, etc

Quoted:


Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees.

The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit.

Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling.

Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all!

Quoted:


Different sling, different sights, but they still teach the fundamentals. NPOA, bone support, etc

Quoted:
Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle,
Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch

https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825



Army marksmanship video current era:

Instructor mentions weight forward of hips,  support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support.

http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg

Quoted:
It's an introductory course designed to teach marksmanship to beginners.  It's not a combat course.  Yes, it is still relevant today.

Quoted:
Appleseed style: chicken wing for shoulder pocket. Support arm straight under rifle,
Tucked under body, body weight straight back a touch

https://everydaymarksman.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/offhand.jpg?w=825



Army marksmanship video current era:

Instructor mentions weight forward of hips,  support arm forward and out laterally, chest toward target, sling not utilized for support.

http://i.imgur.com/3T535DK.jpg

Quoted:


Yeah, but nobody is still using it for mil/combat. Sure hunters are, but hunters are also using blackpowder and bows too. But even modern snipers are ditching loop slings for adjustable two points with bungees.

The sling method taught in Appleseed is the direct historical ancestor of late 19th/early 20th century British marksmanship techniques involving using the carrying sling of the bolt action service rifle, used when slung over the shoulder for administrative movements by clever design of detachable hooks and loops it could be used for supporting the rifle in lieu of pre-existing supported positions, like this and this and this. Because up until slings came about those were legitimately military positions some people were attempting to use in combat, though they really dominated long range shooting competitions in Bisley and elsewhere. The British did it first, the US copied it because certain US Army generals noticed our overall marksmanship program was a giant pile of shit.

Loop or even hasty slinging was vastly superior to anything before it because it could be done in shooting positions more akin to those expected to be used in modern warfare of the early 20th century. Standing, kneeling, sitting, prone. * They weren't training the men to use artificial support as they were not intending to use them outside big open fields. So no training to use logs, corners, roofs, windows, loopholes, etc. From the early 20th century to WWII the sling reigned supreme as the greatest implement created to aid rifle marksmanship EVER. The US reformed its entire marksmanship training program for all branches of the military (which was then copied by the NRA for Service Rifle and National Match style course of fire). If you were in the military during those times that's exactly how you were trained to fire your rifle in combat. The problem was that combat changed but the marksmanship techniques taught didn't, so Soldiers and Marines were forced to adopt on the fly while in basic training they were still being taught obsolete techniques and encouraged to use a growingly obsolete piece of hardware, a complicated leather 1907 sling.

Fast forward 70 years and now those obsolete combat marksmanship techniques are still taught but only for "Learning the Fundamentals." Funny, since we can learn the fundamentals just as well using techniques more akin to modern combat, using hardware that is still used on rifles. Carry slings of the old style have been replaced by across the body two point adjustable slings which are the gold standard. Ergo we should be recreating the entire marksmanship program of the US, military and CMP, to reflect those changes and not trying to replicate a bygone era solely for the sake of joy for traditional form of competition. Look at the Marine Corps, who ditched their old slings for Vickers VCAS and ditched their iron sights for ACOGs. If the kings of traditional marksmanship can change, the last hold out of gravel belly yellow eye rifle shooting, then so can we all!

Quoted:

You're teaching marksmanship - is it easier to diagnose trigger pull issues doing snap-shooting or precision shooting?

Quoted:


You act like marksmanship techniques used 20 years ago are still cannon. Yes the core principles are the same but half of the shit that was common practice 20 years ago is mocked these days.

Quoted:
It's an introductory course designed to teach marksmanship to beginners.  It's not a combat course.  Yes, it is still relevant today.

Quoted:
@rabidus

Appleseed does count for CMP.  We have certificates at each shoot for CMP eligibility if a shooter wants one.  CMP is pretty lax these days anyway and will accept proof of any organized shooting as qualifying.  USPSA, IDPA, and any number of others have been accepted.  I seem to recall a guy in our club being told a hunter education certificate would be adequate.

@cttb

If an individual Appleseed instructor pushed iron sights over optics they went off script.  Appleseed's policy is run what you brung and everything is the instructor training emphasizes to never bash someone's gun or gear.  Emphasizing irons over optics is like telling a mixed crowd of paralyzed and able bodied people that if you don't run a marathon you're not "really" doing it.  If an instructor did that they were wrong and should feel bad.

@Orbital-Burn
I must have missed your entry if the 1 MOA ALL DAY LONG challenge.  Could you point it out?

Quoted:


As long as it's consistent tension non free-floated guns will still benefit from a tight sling.

Like the 1903, M1, M16A2, etc. None are free floated.

Quoted:
Only by people that don't know why it was once cannon.
Today many mock a "chicken wing" and then had to create the reverse chicken wing to correct the failings of removing the original position.  And then get pedantic without ever knowing why the original ever came along.  Learning old ways is the best basis for choosing new ways, if you need them.

Quoted:


Exactly how many times have you actually had a badguy under a front sight or with a red dot on them?

The Army's not squaring up either.

Look at the pic earlier in the thread.

While I'm not advocating standing fully side on and contorting yourself into those weird ass positions, (Pic also earlier in the thread) the square advocates are standing with their feet isosceles. The fighting stance is the correct one.

Quoted:


You might be astonished to find that the Marine Corps finds the exact opposite to be true.

I do enjoy irons. My favorite 2 rifles to shoot are my M1 and my m16a2 clone.

Quoted:


What are you basing combat hit percentages on? Total rounds fired vs enemy known to have died by small arms rifle fire?

Who fought the hardest to revamp the USMC marksmanship programs? Who was always the "wet blanket" for marksmanship reform in the Marine Corps? The Range Officers, most of whom are Distinguished? Or the Infantry Gunners?

Quoted:
Optics mask shitty fundamentals, it's why imho irons are a lot better to teach first as they constantly force solid fundamentals, which in turn creates muscle memory (or motor learning for those who have to make semantic arguments over it).

Quoted:
Optics mask shitty fundamentals, it's why imho irons are a lot better to teach first as they constantly force solid fundamentals, which in turn creates muscle memory (or motor learning for those who have to make semantic arguments over it).

Quoted:
Loading for garand, using slings nobody has or uses anymore. No bipod etc.

No squaring off to target for body armor.

Anything else?

Quoted:


I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I agree with free-floated rails being better when tension is applied, especially in the field.

My point was, if you apply consistent tension to a non free-floated rifle and adjust zero to your POA a tight sling will aid in groups.

Is that not how it's still done? On the KD range? If tight slings do not aid in shooting then why use them?

Quoted:


I think you misunderstood what I was getting at. I agree with free-floated rails being better when tension is applied, especially in the field.

My point was, if you apply consistent tension to a non free-floated rifle and adjust zero to your POA a tight sling will aid in groups.

Is that not how it's still done? On the KD range? If tight slings do not aid in shooting then why use them?