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Link Posted: 10/27/2019 11:26:31 AM EST
[#1]
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 11:31:31 AM EST
[#2]
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Quoted:
The gold they took was US Currency, not jewelry, art, or private property. You don't own US Currency. Also, the Government didn't go and confiscate Bump Stocke. People willingly turned them in to not face prosecution. Plently of folks still hage their bump stocks. Possession after the date is the crime, not the item itself.
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Quoted:
The gold they took was US Currency, not jewelry, art, or private property. You don't own US Currency. Also, the Government didn't go and confiscate Bump Stocke. People willingly turned them in to not face prosecution. Plently of folks still hage their bump stocks. Possession after the date is the crime, not the item itself.
This is not true as your entire understanding of Executive Order 6102 is flawed, at best.

Here is the text of that order for you to read.

April 05, 1933By virtue of the authority vested in me by Section 5 (b) of the Act of October 6, 1917, as amended by Section 2 of the Act of March 9, 1933, entitled "An Act to provide relief in the existing national emergency in banking, and for other purposes," in which amendatory Act Congress declared that a serious emergency exists, I, Franklin D. Roosevelt, President of the United States of America, do declare that said national emergency still continues to exist and pursuant to said section do hereby prohibit the hoarding of gold coin, gold bullion, and gold certificates within the continental United States by individuals, partnerships, associations and corporations and hereby prescribe the following regulations for carrying out the purposes of this order:

Section 1. For the purposes of this regulation, the term "hoarding" means the withdrawal and withholding of gold coin, gold bullion or gold certificates from the recognized and customary channels of trade. The term "person" means any individual, partnership, association or corporation.

Section 2. All persons are hereby required to deliver on or before May 1, 1933, to a Federal Reserve Bank or a branch or agency thereof or to any member bank of the Federal Reserve System all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates now owned by them or coming into their ownership on or before April 28, 1933, except the following:

(a) Such amount of gold as may be required for legitimate and customary use in industry, profession or art within a reasonable time, including gold prior to refining and stocks of gold in reasonable amounts for the usual trade requirements of owners mining and refining such gold.

(b) Gold coin and gold certificates in an amount not exceeding in the aggregate $100 belonging to any one person; and gold coins having a recognized special value to collectors of rare and unusual coins.

(c) Gold coin and bullion earmarked or held in trust for a recognized foreign Government or foreign central bank or the Bank for International Settlements.

(d) Gold coin and bullion licensed for other proper transactions (not involving hoarding) including gold coin and bullion imported for reexport or held pending action on applications for export licenses.

Section 3. Until otherwise ordered any person becoming the owner of any gold coin, gold bullion, or gold certificates after April 28, 1933, shall, within three days after receipt thereof, deliver the same in the manner prescribed in Section 2; unless such gold coin, gold bullion or gold certificates are held for any of the purposes specified in paragraphs (a), (b), or (c) of Section 2; or unless such gold coin or gold bullion is held for purposes specified in paragraph (d) of Section 2 and the person holding it is, with respect to such gold coin or bullion, a licensee or applicant for license pending action thereon.

Section 4. Upon receipt of gold coin, gold bullion or gold certificates delivered to it in accordance with Sections 2 or 3, the Federal Reserve Bank or member bank will pay therefor an equivalent amount of any other form of coin or currency coined or issued under the laws of the United States.

Section 5. Member banks shall deliver all gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates owned or received by them (other than as exempted under the provisions of Section 2) to the Federal Reserve Banks of their respective districts and receive credit or payment therefor.

Section 6. The Secretary of the Treasury, out of the sum made available to the President by Section 501 of the Act of March 9, 1933, will in all proper cases pay the reasonable costs of transportation of gold coin, gold bullion or gold certificates delivered to a member bank or Federal Reserve Bank in accordance with Section 2, 3, or 5 hereof, including the cost of insurance, protection, and such other incidental costs as may be necessary, upon production of satisfactory evidence of such costs. Voucher forms for this purpose may be procured from Federal Reserve Banks.

Section 7. In cases where the delivery of gold coin, gold bullion or gold certificates by the owners thereof within the time set forth above will involve extraordinary hardship or difficulty, the Secretary of the Treasury may, in his discretion, extend the time within which such delivery must be made. Applications for such extensions must be made in writing under oath, addressed to the Secretary of the Treasury and filed with a Federal Reserve Bank. Each application must state the date to which the extension is desired, the amount and location of the gold coin, gold bullion and gold certificates in respect of which such application is made and the facts showing extension to be necessary to avoid extraordinary hardship or difficulty.

Section 8. The Secretary of the Treasury is hereby authorized and empowered to issue such further regulations as he may deem necessary to carry out the purposes of this order and to issue licenses thereunder, through such officers or agencies as he may designate, including licenses permitting the Federal Reserve Banks and member banks of the Federal Reserve System, in return for an equivalent amount of other coin, currency or credit, to deliver, earmark or hold in trust gold coin and bullion to or for persons showing the need for the same for any of the purposes specified in paragraphs (a), (c) and (d) of Section 2 of these regulations.

Section 9. Whoever willfully violates any provision of this Executive Order or of these regulations or of any rule, regulation or license issued thereunder may be fined not more than $10,000, or, if a natural person, may be imprisoned for not more than ten years, or both; and any officer, director, or agent of any corporation who knowingly participates in any such violation may be punished by a like fine, imprisonment, or both.

This order and these regulations may be modified or revoked at any time.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 11:48:45 AM EST
[#3]
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Quoted:
Understanding the "how and why" of how the government operates is key in fighting this. The Gold Confiscation was the US Government declaring that gold currency was null and void and allowing Americans to exchange a $20 gold coin for a $20 bill. Currency swaps are common across the globe.
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Quoted:
Understanding the "how and why" of how the government operates is key in fighting this. The Gold Confiscation was the US Government declaring that gold currency was null and void and allowing Americans to exchange a $20 gold coin for a $20 bill. Currency swaps are common across the globe.
First:  This wasn't a currency exchange.   This was a mandatory confiscation to free up the Federal Reserve Banks from their requirement that stated they needed a certain % of gold before they could expand the money supply.

Secondly:  Not long after the gold confiscation began, the US Congress passed and FDR singed the Gold Reserve Act of 1934 which allowed the US Government to alter the gold value of the dollar which they promptly did by devaluing those reserve notes that were handed out in exchange for gold thus stripping people of purchasing power.

Thirdly:  The US Government did not declare gold currency null and void under FDR's administration.


Quoted: The Federal Reserve Bank is the banking institution that keeps the market afloat and dealsnwith banks and monetary policy. The Fed is a private entity founded by Congress. While private for business organizations (banks) buy stock, the Fed is not actually privately owned like a traditional bank is. It is convoluted and complicated as hell. But basically, private self managing organization founded by the government to regulate manage the banking industry and currency use.
The US Congress and FDR were behind the prohibition on the ownership of gold and not the Federal Reserve.



Quoted:  Again, the Government has not confiscated Bumpstocks. People willingly turned them over. The bumpstock itself is not the criminal act, possession by unauthorized people are. If I was a SOT, I could possess bumpstocks after the enactment date, same way they can possess and make MGs. Look at Post '86 Dealer Samples for to Class III FFL as another example. I can't buy it, but Vito of Only the Best in South Florida can.
What utter nonsense.

If property is deemed contraband by law then said item is banned and subject to confiscation.   The mere fact the confiscation has not yet taken place or that some people willingly surrendered or destroyed their illegal property to prevent prosecution is irrelevant.

The bumpstock, itself, as it was sold to the general consumer and possessed by the vast majority of owners prior to being outlawed is, in and of itself, illegal as it was deemed to be and now is a post-86 machine gun.
Link Posted: 10/27/2019 11:51:52 AM EST
[#4]
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Quoted:
Same ruling will be applied if Betacuck Fake Messican Bobby O'Rourke or any Demmunist gets into Congress and passes the mandatory gun buy back laws, the law will still stand, weapons will be required to be turned in for destruction, but no compensation will be given.
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They will make gun owners turn them in and pay a "destruction tax"...
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 11:47:44 AM EST
[#5]
What ever happened with the RW arms lawsuit against the fed ?
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 11:55:06 AM EST
[#6]
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 1:38:54 PM EST
[#7]
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Quoted:

NJ has taken legally purchased firearms and firearms parts and accessories with zero compensation for decades. All unconstitutional as fuck. Why is it so surprising when it's done everywhere else?
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Generally, States are given the "Police Power" under the 10th Amendment which courts have held allows them to take property to public safety. However, that power has traditionally not been granted to the federal government like this.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 1:41:16 PM EST
[#8]
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Quoted:
The Government didn't "take property". They made the act of possession after a certain date illegal. Nothing more. People voluntarily turned over their property to the government.
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Sorry, no. You might want to read the opinion because the judge literally says it was a taking, but goes on to say it does not need to be compensated for because it serves the interest of public safety.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 1:47:28 PM EST
[#9]
Roscoe Filburn was just growing wheat for his family and his livestock.  Doesn't mean the government couldn't take it away.  Thanks FDR.
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 1:52:27 PM EST
[#10]
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Quoted:
"Cold, dead, hands" comes to mind.

Motion Love bitches
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That was for muskets.

Didn't even use a fudd rifle
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 1:59:33 PM EST
[#11]
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Quoted:

Generally, States are given the "Police Power" under the 10th Amendment which courts have held allows them to take property to public safety. However, that power has traditionally not been granted to the federal government like this.
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So you're saying that bootleggers who had their contraband seized by the Treasury Department, or people who had their contraband seized by the DEA were generally compensated for it in the past?

How much compensation has been paid to those who have had unregistered machineguns forfeited/seized over the last 85 years?

Not being compensated for a forfeited bumpstock in 2019 is no different than not being compensated for an unregistered, forfeited Thompson in 1935

The very basis for the National Firearms Act was that of "public safety"......
Link Posted: 10/28/2019 3:56:34 PM EST
[#12]
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Quoted:

So you're saying that bootleggers who had their contraband seized by the Treasury Department, or people who had their contraband seized by the DEA were generally compensated for it in the past?

How much compensation has been paid to those who have had unregistered machineguns forfeited/seized over the last 85 years?

Not being compensated for a forfeited bumpstock in 2019 is no different than not being compensated for an unregistered, forfeited Thompson in 1935

The very basis for the National Firearms Act was that of "public safety"......
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Contraband does not implicate the Takings clause. Even in the case of a Thompson in 1935, there was a tax that the possessor could have paid to keep it. The difference here is that the government issued a law that said "turn in or destroy your property." The same was not said in 1934. Bootleggers were making something was made illegal via a constitutional amendment. Nothing like this.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 3:36:13 PM EST
[#13]
The implications for this are enormous. Think of the person that has $200,000 in pre-86 transferable MGs. One day in the future, some nut job with a legally owned pre-86 goes and kills a bunch of people. All of sudden, Congress decides they should have banned all of them. A new law is passed, just like this one, that says you have 90 days to destroy or turn in your transferable MGs. Want your $200,000 back? Sorry, the government doesn't have to pay you because they decided your property is dangerous to the public.

Show me I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 3:39:42 PM EST
[#14]
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Quoted:
The implications for this are enormous. Think of the person that has $200,000 in pre-86 transferable MGs. One day in the future, some nut job with a legally owned pre-86 goes and kills a bunch of people. All of sudden, Congress decides they should have banned all of them. A new law is passed, just like this one, that says you have 90 days to destroy or turn in your transferable MGs. Want your $200,000 back? Sorry, the government doesn't have to pay you because they decided your property is dangerous to the public.

Show me I'm wrong.
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With this precedent, the President could probably direct the ATF to do it themselves and get away with I, should all of this be allowed to stand.  What Trump's Admin did was fucked up on many levels.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 3:43:19 PM EST
[#15]
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Quoted:
With this precedent, the President could probably direct the ATF to do it themselves and get away with I, should all of this be allowed to stand.  What Trump's Admin did was fucked up on many levels.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
The implications for this are enormous. Think of the person that has $200,000 in pre-86 transferable MGs. One day in the future, some nut job with a legally owned pre-86 goes and kills a bunch of people. All of sudden, Congress decides they should have banned all of them. A new law is passed, just like this one, that says you have 90 days to destroy or turn in your transferable MGs. Want your $200,000 back? Sorry, the government doesn't have to pay you because they decided your property is dangerous to the public.

Show me I'm wrong.
With this precedent, the President could probably direct the ATF to do it themselves and get away with I, should all of this be allowed to stand.  What Trump's Admin did was fucked up on many levels.
This.

The way it was done is more concerning than what was done.

But "our guy" did it,so we let it slide............
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 3:44:51 PM EST
[#16]
The judges won't even let you get compensation when the authorities blow up your house  and you think they would compensate you for  your bumpstock?

Court Says “Too Bad” To Innocent Man Whose House Was Utterly Destroyed By Colorado Police While In Standoff With A Criminal On The Run

Recently a man’s house was broken into by a criminal on the run while he was away. The police tracked him down and the incident turned into a standoff where the police fired constant munitions into the home, utterly devastating it, and then while the criminal later surrendered, the police said that they will not pay for the damage incurred, and the courts sided with the police.
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Link Posted: 10/31/2019 3:47:13 PM EST
[#17]
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Quoted:
What ever happened with the RW arms lawsuit against the fed ?
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Got an email 10-29 from RW Arms that linked to this.......https://www.guns.com/news/2019/10/28/court-no-compensation-for-destroyed-bump-stocks?goal=0_3c60d90255-862ec9e58d-79035723&mc_cid=862ec9e58d&mc_eid=bcc037f49e

"Mark Maxwell, with RW Arms, one of the plaintiffs, told Guns.com the fight will go on:"

""We feel strongly that the Court got this ruling wrong, and we are preparing an appeal to the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. As we plan to file later this week we recognize there are several errors made by the Judge regarding the facts and law, and we are incredibly concerned with the dangerous precedent it sets.

We will continue the fight for the Second Amendment and property rights of all Americans, against the most well-funded defendant in America, who has a history of changing rules and regulations mid-stride.""
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 3:48:36 PM EST
[#18]
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Quoted:
Throw your bumpstock away and just make your AR legit full auto.   Might as well.  Same charge.
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In for a penny, in for a pound.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 4:44:35 PM EST
[#19]
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Quoted:
The implications for this are enormous. Think of the person that has $200,000 in pre-86 transferable MGs. One day in the future, some nut job with a legally owned pre-86 goes and kills a bunch of people. All of sudden, Congress decides they should have banned all of them. A new law is passed, just like this one, that says you have 90 days to destroy or turn in your transferable MGs. Want your $200,000 back? Sorry, the government doesn't have to pay you because they decided your property is dangerous to the public.

Show me I'm wrong.
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Hughes specifically sets a cutoff date.  Bump stocks were made after it, so when they were magically redefined as MGs they went 'poof.'  Because the law was unaltered (without even the decency of a congressional vote) it is claimed to not be an ex post facto taking --the reason for the pre '86 exemptions in the first place.  Yes, the bump stocks existing before the rule change means it was clearly ex post facto, but we still pretend that regulation isn't "law" even though it operates with greater authority & less restraint than the constitution allows laws.

Real pre '86 MGs can't be redefined as post '86 manufacture, so they can't go 'poof' that way.  They'd have to modify Hughes to be explicitly ex post facto & try their luck in the courts, or more likely do like Canada & make transfer or inheritance illegal, and wait for the "freedom glitch" to fix itself.  Which still makes the guns worthless, but still usable in some fashion.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 6:55:41 PM EST
[#20]
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Quoted:
Got an email 10-29 from RW Arms that linked to this.......https://www.guns.com/news/2019/10/28/court-no-compensation-for-destroyed-bump-stocks?goal=0_3c60d90255-862ec9e58d-79035723&mc_cid=862ec9e58d&mc_eid=bcc037f49e

"Mark Maxwell, with RW Arms, one of the plaintiffs, told Guns.com the fight will go on:"

""We feel strongly that the Court got this ruling wrong, and we are preparing an appeal to the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. As we plan to file later this week we recognize there are several errors made by the Judge regarding the facts and law, and we are incredibly concerned with the dangerous precedent it sets.

We will continue the fight for the Second Amendment and property rights of all Americans, against the most well-funded defendant in America, who has a history of changing rules and regulations mid-stride.""
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Quoted:
Quoted:
What ever happened with the RW arms lawsuit against the fed ?
Got an email 10-29 from RW Arms that linked to this.......https://www.guns.com/news/2019/10/28/court-no-compensation-for-destroyed-bump-stocks?goal=0_3c60d90255-862ec9e58d-79035723&mc_cid=862ec9e58d&mc_eid=bcc037f49e

"Mark Maxwell, with RW Arms, one of the plaintiffs, told Guns.com the fight will go on:"

""We feel strongly that the Court got this ruling wrong, and we are preparing an appeal to the US Court of Appeals for the Federal Circuit. As we plan to file later this week we recognize there are several errors made by the Judge regarding the facts and law, and we are incredibly concerned with the dangerous precedent it sets.

We will continue the fight for the Second Amendment and property rights of all Americans, against the most well-funded defendant in America, who has a history of changing rules and regulations mid-stride.""
From that link “Here, ATF acted properly within the confines of the limited federal police power.”

Link Posted: 10/31/2019 6:57:05 PM EST
[#21]
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Quoted:
This.

The way it was done is more concerning than what was done.

But "our guy" did it,so we let it slide............
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
The implications for this are enormous. Think of the person that has $200,000 in pre-86 transferable MGs. One day in the future, some nut job with a legally owned pre-86 goes and kills a bunch of people. All of sudden, Congress decides they should have banned all of them. A new law is passed, just like this one, that says you have 90 days to destroy or turn in your transferable MGs. Want your $200,000 back? Sorry, the government doesn't have to pay you because they decided your property is dangerous to the public.

Show me I'm wrong.
With this precedent, the President could probably direct the ATF to do it themselves and get away with I, should all of this be allowed to stand.  What Trump's Admin did was fucked up on many levels.
This.

The way it was done is more concerning than what was done.

But "our guy" did it,so we let it slide............
Yeah
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 7:05:43 PM EST
[#22]
I'm still pissed off how Obama and the Dems banned bump stocks...
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 7:14:48 PM EST
[#23]
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Quoted:
I'm still pissed off how Obama and the Dems banned bump stocks...
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Well it wasn’t Obama but it was a Democrat
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 7:17:09 PM EST
[#24]
I was being facetious.  GD always blames Obama and Democrats for gun laws, yet more restrictions have evolved under Trump than Obama....
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 7:20:18 PM EST
[#25]
Government exist to protect property.  Apparently government forgot this.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 7:28:04 PM EST
[#26]
We're headed to full blown Soviet Union.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 7:35:47 PM EST
[#27]
Judge Loren A. Smith, appointed by President Reagan
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 7:38:05 PM EST
[#28]
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Quoted:
Yep,scary part wasn't the Bumpstocks,but they way they were banned.

Shirley the dems won't abuse that when they get back in power someday...............
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Scariest ruling I've seen in a long time. Shocked no one cares about this. This has implications far beyond guns.

The Judge doesnt even cite SCOTUS ruling in Horne v. Dept of Agriculture from 2015 that says private property cant be physically taken for any reason.

If the government can take any property they deem dangerous, we have no property rights. This is the first time the federal government has really made people destroy or turn in property. I hope this is appealed or we are all screwed.

https://www.newsweek.com/bump-stock-ban-lawsuit-dismissed-1467834
Yep,scary part wasn't the Bumpstocks,but they way they were banned.

Shirley the dems won't abuse that when they get back in power someday...............
That lawsuit is still pending. This was a separate lawsuit about compensation...
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:04:07 PM EST
[#29]
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Quoted:

Um, actually never used in a crime. Reports from Vegas actually show there was no bump stock usage.
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What was he using?  The reports we've all heard on recordings sound like more than a quick trigger-finger.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:07:33 PM EST
[#30]
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Quoted:

Hughes specifically sets a cutoff date.  Bump stocks were made after it, so when they were magically redefined as MGs they went 'poof.'  Because the law was unaltered (without even the decency of a congressional vote) it is claimed to not be an ex post facto taking --the reason for the pre '86 exemptions in the first place.  Yes, the bump stocks existing before the rule change means it was clearly ex post facto, but we still pretend that regulation isn't "law" even though it operates with greater authority & less restraint than the constitution allows laws.

Real pre '86 MGs can't be redefined as post '86 manufacture, so they can't go 'poof' that way.  They'd have to modify Hughes to be explicitly ex post facto & try their luck in the courts, or more likely do like Canada & make transfer or inheritance illegal, and wait for the "freedom glitch" to fix itself.  Which still makes the guns worthless, but still usable in some fashion.
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Your logic is solid, EXCEPT as i understand it there are numerous ATF letters saying " a bump stock isn't a MG, or part of one... and thus 100 % legal". then those ex post facto became MG's??

either there is no ex post facto allowed or there is?
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:14:14 PM EST
[#31]
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Quoted:

What was he using?  The reports we've all heard on recordings sound like more than a quick trigger-finger.
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@Media_Noche - he used bumpstocks, every 5.56 rifle had one. Schneecat doesn't know what he's talking about.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:16:45 PM EST
[#32]
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Quoted:
I was being facetious.  GD always blames Obama and Democrats for gun laws, yet more restrictions have evolved under Trump than Obama....
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Like I said, Obama didn’t ban bump stocks, the current democrat in charge did
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:18:55 PM EST
[#33]
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Quoted:
Like I said, Obama didn’t ban bump stocks, the current democrat in charge did
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Quoted:
I was being facetious.  GD always blames Obama and Democrats for gun laws, yet more restrictions have evolved under Trump than Obama....
Like I said, Obama didn’t ban bump stocks, the current democrat in charge did
Hey,we wanted a President that gets things done,not some namby pamby like obama that tried to ban them twice and failed.

Mission. Accomplished.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:21:59 PM EST
[#34]
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Quoted:
Hey,we wanted a President that gets things done,not some namby pamby like obama that tried to ban them twice and failed.

Mission. Accomplished.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was being facetious.  GD always blames Obama and Democrats for gun laws, yet more restrictions have evolved under Trump than Obama....
Like I said, Obama didn’t ban bump stocks, the current democrat in charge did
Hey,we wanted a President that gets things done,not some namby pamby like obama that tried to ban them twice and failed.

Mission. Accomplished.
Right I remember being told something about the long game. Ban all the shit then let the patriot act judges rule the banning unconstitutional

ETA: Trust in the plan... as long as it’s trolling the libs
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:25:25 PM EST
[#35]
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Quoted:
Right I remember being told something about the long game. Ban all the shit then let the patriot act judges rule the banning unconstitutional
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I was being facetious.  GD always blames Obama and Democrats for gun laws, yet more restrictions have evolved under Trump than Obama....
Like I said, Obama didn’t ban bump stocks, the current democrat in charge did
Hey,we wanted a President that gets things done,not some namby pamby like obama that tried to ban them twice and failed.

Mission. Accomplished.
Right I remember being told something about the long game. Ban all the shit then let the patriot act judges rule the banning unconstitutional
Exactly.Don't think in the present,think in the future.

Trump is a master of Interdimensional chess-he banned Bumpstocks knowing full well that SCOTUS will overturn it,along with all the other gun laws.
Don't be so hopped up on instant gratification-the wait will be well worth it.Probably happen next year.......
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:25:54 PM EST
[#36]
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Quoted:
In no way is that constitutional. At all.
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Lol what constitution?
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:29:26 PM EST
[#37]
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:53:37 PM EST
[#38]
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That’s about right for that piece of shit.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 8:57:56 PM EST
[#39]
LOL.....Even  Judge Napolitano could have seen this one coming.....Maybe.
Link Posted: 10/31/2019 9:17:52 PM EST
[#40]
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Quoted:

This.

The way it was done is more concerning than what was done.

But "our guy" did it,so we let it slide............
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Hey, at least we get the dankest of memes from this administration!

Link Posted: 10/31/2019 9:20:15 PM EST
[#41]
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Quoted:
Hey, at least we get the dankest of memes from this administration!

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Quoted:

This.

The way it was done is more concerning than what was done.

But "our guy" did it,so we let it slide............
Hey, at least we get the dankest of memes from this administration!

.......so we've got that going for us,which is nice.
Link Posted: 11/1/2019 8:52:23 AM EST
[#42]
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Hughes specifically sets a cutoff date.  Bump stocks were made after it, so when they were magically redefined as MGs they went 'poof.'  Because the law was unaltered (without even the decency of a congressional vote) it is claimed to not be an ex post facto taking --the reason for the pre '86 exemptions in the first place.  Yes, the bump stocks existing before the rule change means it was clearly ex post facto, but we still pretend that regulation isn't "law" even though it operates with greater authority & less restraint than the constitution allows laws.

Real pre '86 MGs can't be redefined as post '86 manufacture, so they can't go 'poof' that way.  They'd have to modify Hughes to be explicitly ex post facto & try their luck in the courts, or more likely do like Canada & make transfer or inheritance illegal, and wait for the "freedom glitch" to fix itself.  Which still makes the guns worthless, but still usable in some fashion.
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I'm not sure what you mean by ex post facto taking. No, the judge did not "pretend that regulation isn't 'law'". He treated it as a legislative rule. Even still, the court concluded,

"As the purpose of promulgating the Final Rule was to promote public safety and to prevent public harm, the Court must conclude that ATF acted within the narrow confines of the police power when it required the surrender or destruction of all bump stocks. Accordingly, the Court grants defendant’s Motion to Dismiss."

I think you and I are in agreement though, because what I was saying was that if Congress wanted to modify Hughes and give you 90 days to give up your property, the legal outcome would be no different.
Link Posted: 11/1/2019 12:41:39 PM EST
[#43]
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Quoted:
I'm not sure what you mean by ex post facto taking. No, the judge did not "pretend that regulation isn't 'law'". He treated it as a legislative rule. Even still, the court concluded,

"As the purpose of promulgating the Final Rule was to promote public safety and to prevent public harm, the Court must conclude that ATF acted within the narrow confines of the police power when it required the surrender or destruction of all bump stocks. Accordingly, the Court grants defendant’s Motion to Dismiss."

I think you and I are in agreement though, because what I was saying was that if Congress wanted to modify Hughes and give you 90 days to give up your property, the legal outcome would be no different.
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Hughes specifically sets a cutoff date.  Bump stocks were made after it, so when they were magically redefined as MGs they went 'poof.'  Because the law was unaltered (without even the decency of a congressional vote) it is claimed to not be an ex post facto taking --the reason for the pre '86 exemptions in the first place.  Yes, the bump stocks existing before the rule change means it was clearly ex post facto, but we still pretend that regulation isn't "law" even though it operates with greater authority & less restraint than the constitution allows laws.

Real pre '86 MGs can't be redefined as post '86 manufacture, so they can't go 'poof' that way.  They'd have to modify Hughes to be explicitly ex post facto & try their luck in the courts, or more likely do like Canada & make transfer or inheritance illegal, and wait for the "freedom glitch" to fix itself.  Which still makes the guns worthless, but still usable in some fashion.
I'm not sure what you mean by ex post facto taking. No, the judge did not "pretend that regulation isn't 'law'". He treated it as a legislative rule. Even still, the court concluded,

"As the purpose of promulgating the Final Rule was to promote public safety and to prevent public harm, the Court must conclude that ATF acted within the narrow confines of the police power when it required the surrender or destruction of all bump stocks. Accordingly, the Court grants defendant’s Motion to Dismiss."

I think you and I are in agreement though, because what I was saying was that if Congress wanted to modify Hughes and give you 90 days to give up your property, the legal outcome would be no different.
“Narrow Confines”
Link Posted: 11/1/2019 12:58:48 PM EST
[#44]
Amendment V
"...nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

Someone is going to be overturned.

If they are tryng to hide behind it NOT being for "public use"
but for 'public safety' it is gong to blow up in their faces.

The phrase "Hoist with his own petard" (Shakespeare) comes to mind.
Link Posted: 11/5/2019 9:34:30 PM EST
[#45]
Trust in the plan.
Link Posted: 11/5/2019 9:40:59 PM EST
[#46]
Lol, you guys actually believe in Justice and that a judge will provide it?  We have a legal system that, at times, provides justice if it's politically in the best interest of those in power.  That's all we've ever had.  Laws simply enforce political will.
Link Posted: 11/5/2019 9:44:39 PM EST
[#47]
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Not trying to attack here, but I have questions . Your post comes off as a huge amount of guardhouse lawyering .

I may not own the paper bill itself , but i do own the value it represents.

When they confiscated gold , the people were reimbursed the value of that gold .

I thought The Fed wasn't a government agency ? If it is not then the actual paper money isn't government property either correct?

I'd love to know how many people kept their gold and said fuck the government.
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The Feds didn't let you open a safety-deposit box unless there was a Dept. of Treasury official present...and the reimbursement they gave people for their gold hosed them (almost immediately) by 20-30% if I remember reading correctly (they low-balled the gold price and screwed them).
Link Posted: 11/5/2019 9:58:40 PM EST
[#48]
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Quoted:
Lol, you guys actually believe in Justice and that a judge will provide it?  We have a legal system that, at times, provides justice if it's politically in the best interest of those in power.  That's all we've ever had.  Laws simply enforce political will.
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Even the patriot act judges?
Link Posted: 11/5/2019 10:48:13 PM EST
[#49]
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While the atf never examined them the fbi did and there is a report of the bumpstocks equipped rifles firing as bumpstock equipped rifles.
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Yes, they were used in the Vegas shooting.  
@nolocontendre
While the atf never examined them the fbi did and there is a report of the bumpstocks equipped rifles firing as bumpstock equipped rifles.
nolo, not sure if you have been following the Vegas shooting investigation groups, but the official story got smoked.  I had family&friends there, and what they said never matched the official Paddock patsy/honey potted theory.

YouTube channel John E. Hoover is just one of them.  Endless police body-cam footage if you can weed through his opinions/theories.

I tend to believe there is some type of Saudi connection.
Link Posted: 11/5/2019 11:26:32 PM EST
[#50]
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Your logic is solid, EXCEPT as i understand it there are numerous ATF letters saying " a bump stock isn't a MG, or part of one... and thus 100 % legal". then those ex post facto became MG's??

either there is no ex post facto allowed or there is?
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Hughes specifically sets a cutoff date.  Bump stocks were made after it, so when they were magically redefined as MGs they went 'poof.'  Because the law was unaltered (without even the decency of a congressional vote) it is claimed to not be an ex post facto taking --the reason for the pre '86 exemptions in the first place.  Yes, the bump stocks existing before the rule change means it was clearly ex post facto, but we still pretend that regulation isn't "law" even though it operates with greater authority & less restraint than the constitution allows laws.

Real pre '86 MGs can't be redefined as post '86 manufacture, so they can't go 'poof' that way.  They'd have to modify Hughes to be explicitly ex post facto & try their luck in the courts, or more likely do like Canada & make transfer or inheritance illegal, and wait for the "freedom glitch" to fix itself.  Which still makes the guns worthless, but still usable in some fashion.
Your logic is solid, EXCEPT as i understand it there are numerous ATF letters saying " a bump stock isn't a MG, or part of one... and thus 100 % legal". then those ex post facto became MG's??

either there is no ex post facto allowed or there is?
The ATF's word is worth less than the smears on your shit-tickets, so no, their dozen-plus determinations that bump stocks cannot be considered MGs over more than a decade's time have no bearing, except as raw-materials for arguments in new legal proceedings (because the ATF did make some good logical arguments to support their position)
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