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No, they were being assholes who don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Find a new range. Chances are that once you have the SBR, they'll demand to see the stamp and treat you like a fucking criminal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I didn't name the range because I don't blame them. I believe, they believe they were helping me not get in trouble. I blame Washington! No, they were being assholes who don't know what the fuck they are talking about. Find a new range. Chances are that once you have the SBR, they'll demand to see the stamp and treat you like a fucking criminal. Stag Arms does this for pistol uppers. ![]() |
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Quoted: Hi all, Just needed to share my disappointment with the events of today. I recently purchased a Scorpion EVO and KAK Shockwave Blade. I spent an incredible number of hours researching the ATF ruling about arm braces and their use with pistols. Based on that research I was fairly confident that as long as I didn't shoulder the weapon I wasn't in violation of the law. i.e. - it is absolutely acceptable to use a cheek weld with the KAK Blade. Well today, I took my Scorpion with the Blade on it to a range that recently opened in my area. As soon as I pulled the Scorpion out of my bag a range safety officer approached me and asked if I had the appropriate paperwork for an SBR. I told him I did not and my understanding of the ATF's position was that I didn't need it as long as I didn't shoulder the weapon. He said fine, but he wanted to check with the range master. The range master came over and told me I was in violation of federal law. I repeated my understanding of the ATF ruling but did not argue at all. I immediately put my gun back and my bag and left. I should point out no one was nasty or mean or anything approaching it. They were very professional and respectful the entire time. I'm just disappointed and confused. I have never committed a crime and the last thing I want to do is have my freedom taken from me. I'm going to go ahead and get the paperwork done so I don't have anything to worry about, but this whole mess created by the Feds is so bad. G View Quote If you place the butt of a pistol gripped "weapon" (shotgun) and fired it does that make it an SBS? Of course not. If you place the grip of a 1911 against your shoulder and fired it does it make it an SBR? Of course not. What in the blue fuck would they charge you with? |
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When they asked if you had the proper paperwork you should have just said yes. When they asked to see it, just say no because it has your personal information on it. Or just print up some half official looking paperwork with bogus information on it and flash it to them and say "yep its all squared away"
eta dont actually forge a legal document, but make something that looks "official" at a quick glance. |
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There's a range local to me that will not allow AR pistols with braces etc... It's private property and their rules, so I don't mind. They did give me a hassle twice on my SBR's. Just b/c I didn't bring my stamps with me. They are just trying to protect their behinds I guess, in case an agent comes in and see's something illegal going on, they will wondering why the business owner did not report it etc... View Quote Nor letting everybody on the internet know what the name of the ranges are. But most of them hate the public publicity. If you are shooting a legal firearm what's the problem. Anti gun, gun ranges, Who would of ever thought that. Post up the range names. Start Facebook and posts boycotting them. Freedom of speeches great! |
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There's a range local to me that will not allow AR pistols with braces etc... It's private property and their rules, so I don't mind. They did give me a hassle twice on my SBR's. Just b/c I didn't bring my stamps with me. They are just trying to protect their behinds I guess, in case an agent comes in and see's something illegal going on, they will wondering why the business owner did not report it etc... The minute they asked for my stamps I would be out, the only people who have authority to ask for my stamps are the ATF. Sure their property their rules, but they do not support our rights so I would never spend a dime there. honestly the ATF is not going to ask the range why they didn't "report" it, to make stupid rules over that fact shows how stupid that range is Incorrect. how so? |
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How is that "protecting their behinds"? A Scorpion is a legal pistol,a brace doesn't change that one bit. Even if it was an illegal SBR that is your problem,not theirs. Do they check to make sure every gun isn't stolen,that 14.5" ARs have properly silver soldered or welded hiders,do they demand 922R parts count?
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Which range was this?
I know the OBX Range lost a lot of members when a group do good Carpet Bagging Retired Yankees(no disrespect towards our northern members ![]() After Sandy Hook, they wanted all members to sign a contract allowing them to access your medical history, to check for mental health issues. Even if you were in LE or a Licensed CC holder, you were not exempt. Fuck them, it was a nice range, that I and my family were part of the founding members. |
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The minute they asked for my stamps I would be out, the only people who have authority to ask for my stamps are the ATF. Sure their property their rules, but they do not support our rights so I would never spend a dime there. honestly the ATF is not going to ask the range why they didn't "report" it, to make stupid rules over that fact shows how stupid that range is View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There's a range local to me that will not allow AR pistols with braces etc... It's private property and their rules, so I don't mind. They did give me a hassle twice on my SBR's. Just b/c I didn't bring my stamps with me. They are just trying to protect their behinds I guess, in case an agent comes in and see's something illegal going on, they will wondering why the business owner did not report it etc... The minute they asked for my stamps I would be out, the only people who have authority to ask for my stamps are the ATF. Sure their property their rules, but they do not support our rights so I would never spend a dime there. honestly the ATF is not going to ask the range why they didn't "report" it, to make stupid rules over that fact shows how stupid that range is Since when does anyone need authority to "ask" to see your tax stamp? You are not required to show it to them when they ask, but your outrage over their desire to ensure that their business is not entangled in a patrons use of an illegal weapon seems ridiculous. |
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It's funny how the GD is 100% in support of private property owner's rights until it doesn't go along with their agenda. You are no better than the left. View Quote ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Who is calling for the government to force the range to let him shoot? I fully support their right to throw OP out, but I'm fully against their decision to toss him. Then OP has the right to bitch about it later and everyone else has a right to boycott the place. That's the way rights work, the left demands the government strip the rights of other individuals and have laws fix anything they don't like. You can support the right while being against the decision. You just don't understand the way rights work. |
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There's a range local to me that will not allow AR pistols with braces etc... It's private property and their rules, so I don't mind. They did give me a hassle twice on my SBR's. Just b/c I didn't bring my stamps with me. They are just trying to protect their behinds I guess, in case an agent comes in and see's something illegal going on, they will wondering why the business owner did not report it etc... View Quote I thought stamps, or copies, were required to be with the gun at all times? |
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None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Sucks, but their range their rules. They probably thought it was an SBR. None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? Their range, their rules. Make em up as they go along if they want. Don't like it, go ask Bernie for a participation award while you're at it. |
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In hindsight I should have taken letter I received with my KAK. But I made the very stupid mistake of assuming they would be aware of the law. The range master did tell me others had been to the range and made similar arguments but HE believed I (and the others had a pistol with a stock). In all honesty I don't think the letter would have made any difference to him. He was pretty adamant.
And as others have said...it is their facility. They have the "right to be wrong" on their property. It was clear there was no upside in causing a huge stink since I clearly was not going to change his mind. I don't have to return. |
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The Kak blade comes with the ATF paper explaining everything. Always keep it in your bag. If you don't have it, you can print it up at numerous links. RO just needed to be educated.
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Since when does anyone need authority to "ask" to see your tax stamp? You are not required to show it to them when they ask, but your outrage over their desire to ensure that their business is not entangled in a patrons use of an illegal weapon seems ridiculous. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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There's a range local to me that will not allow AR pistols with braces etc... It's private property and their rules, so I don't mind. They did give me a hassle twice on my SBR's. Just b/c I didn't bring my stamps with me. They are just trying to protect their behinds I guess, in case an agent comes in and see's something illegal going on, they will wondering why the business owner did not report it etc... The minute they asked for my stamps I would be out, the only people who have authority to ask for my stamps are the ATF. Sure their property their rules, but they do not support our rights so I would never spend a dime there. honestly the ATF is not going to ask the range why they didn't "report" it, to make stupid rules over that fact shows how stupid that range is Since when does anyone need authority to "ask" to see your tax stamp? You are not required to show it to them when they ask, but your outrage over their desire to ensure that their business is not entangled in a patrons use of an illegal weapon seems ridiculous. Would any NFA owner mind if a RSO asked them if they have the paperwork for that gun/suppressor, no not at all. Where we would mind is if we are then asked to produce said document. Honestly do you have to show a 1040 for every firearm you are shooting at the range? There is no law that asks ranges to have evidence of the person legally owning a firearm or if said firearm is in itself legal, they are not protecting their business... they are being paranoid and chasing off business. Does your range ask for background checks, 1040's, medical checks, ect to shoot guns? I am guessing no, so why then is it ridiculous for ?nfa holders to bristle and have outrage when we are treated like we have illegal arms when we in fact do not. |
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In hindsight I should have taken letter I received with my KAK. But I made the very stupid mistake of assuming they would be aware of the law. The range master did tell me others had been to the range and made similar arguments but HE believed I (and the others had a pistol with a stock). In all honesty I don't think the letter would have made any difference to him. He was pretty adamant. And as others have said...it is their facility. They have the "right to be wrong" on their property. It was clear there was no upside in causing a huge stink since I clearly was not going to change his mind. I don't have to return. View Quote So how about you make sure nobody wastes their time and identify the range. |
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You live in WA. We are like 99% forests. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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GD thought I was trolling about sig brace nazis. Nope. ![]() In before elitist with 87 acres to shoot on. MustBeNiceBro Until you come to the east side and it's all dirt and sagebrush. If there is a tree, not near a river, somebody planted it there. Oh, and I'm on 450 acres, but I only use six for my range ![]() |
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In hindsight I should have taken letter I received with my KAK. But I made the very stupid mistake of assuming they would be aware of the law. The range master did tell me others had been to the range and made similar arguments but HE believed I (and the others had a pistol with a stock). In all honesty I don't think the letter would have made any difference to him. He was pretty adamant. And as others have said...it is their facility. They have the "right to be wrong" on their property. It was clear there was no upside in causing a huge stink since I clearly was not going to change his mind. I don't have to return. View Quote If I sent you an email would you tell me which range it was? I only ask because I had an incident at a range last month. I was able to educate the owner of the range and they changed their rules, everybody was happy and I'm sure he gained more customers because of it. So this is what went down....... Was working close by to Charlotte, went to the lgs in that town. Saw a pistol I had been looking for and told them I wanted it. They put my name on it and put it aside, I told them I would be back the next day to pick it up (if you're from NC you either use a permit to purchase a pistol to use your concealed permit to purchase a pistol) I had a permit to purchase a pistol. I ended up going back that night instead to pick it up. The counter guys started doing a NIC check, I told them that wasn't needed, just the permit, they didn't believe me. I went back the next day and talked to the owner, showed him the NC and Fed gun laws as well as the place on the 4473 (box 21 I think) that stated that the concealed AND the permit to purchase a pistol were BOTH acceptable forms in lieu of the NIC check. He called the ATF, they said I was right, I got the pistol. Before I said anything they only took a concealed permit in lieu of the NIC check, they were half right. I was nice, they were nice and everybody was cool. Can't hurt to try the same thing here. Also, I know plenty of ranges that will allow the blade. Just have to know your stuff... |
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Join a better range. I drive 60 miles to a good one, even though there are other ranges just a few miles from me.
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In hindsight I should have taken letter I received with my KAK. But I made the very stupid mistake of assuming they would be aware of the law. The range master did tell me others had been to the range and made similar arguments but HE believed I (and the others had a pistol with a stock). In all honesty I don't think the letter would have made any difference to him. He was pretty adamant. And as others have said...it is their facility. They have the "right to be wrong" on their property. It was clear there was no upside in causing a huge stink since I clearly was not going to change his mind. I don't have to return. View Quote Please tell us the name |
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Sucks, but yeah I'd just look for a new range. I'm sure it looks like an SBR to them, you can try to educate them that it's not, but if that fails then yeah find a new range. I'd say about half the ranges I've been to has asked for my paperwork on NFA stuff. Some ranges care and some do not.
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Their range, their rules. Make em up as they go along if they want. Don't like it, go ask Bernie for a participation award while you're at it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Sucks, but their range their rules. They probably thought it was an SBR. None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? Their range, their rules. Make em up as they go along if they want. Don't like it, go ask Bernie for a participation award while you're at it. LOL, I swear sometimes you people trip over yourselves for who can be the most edgy. It sounds like a case of some range guys not understanding federal law and the type of gun OP had. Not OP violating any of their range "rules". |
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The atf doesn't care if you shoulder it they care if you built it with the intent to shoiulder it...
Just like a regular pistol in a two handed grip doesn't make it a rifle... What if I shoulder a out of box stock glock? ![]() |
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Quoted: None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Sucks, but their range their rules. They probably thought it was an SBR. None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? Anything they want. If they aren't comfortable with it they can ask him to leave. I don't agree with it, but they are within their rights. |
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Anything they want. If they aren't comfortable with it they can ask him to leave. I don't agree with it, but they are within their rights. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Sucks, but their range their rules. They probably thought it was an SBR. None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? Anything they want. If they aren't comfortable with it they can ask him to leave. I don't agree with it, but they are within their rights. Did they ask OP to leave? Apparently they kept stating he was in violation of federal law, which he wasn't. So it sounds like they are making up federal law, not range rules. I absolutely would have argued to prove them wrong. |
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I don't get the utility of that 'blade' unit. Seems like a pistol tube with a foam sleeve has the same utility without risking being found in violation of a SBR law by being 'shoulderable'. At least the Sig Brace is shaped to fit over one's arm. That thing looks just like stock to me...without being shaped to fit over the arm...and it's adjustable for length of pull. Knowing the ATF's proclivity for making shit up as they go along, (think shoelace), I don't believe I'd want to tempt fate. YMMV. View Quote I honestly don't think the ATF gives a shit anymore. http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/05/19/breaking-news-sb-tactical-collapsing-brace/ |
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Quoted: Did they ask OP to leave? Apparently they kept stating he was in violation of federal law, which he wasn't. So it sounds like they are making up federal law, not range rules. I absolutely would have argued to prove them wrong. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sucks, but their range their rules. They probably thought it was an SBR. None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? Anything they want. If they aren't comfortable with it they can ask him to leave. I don't agree with it, but they are within their rights. Did they ask OP to leave? Apparently they kept stating he was in violation of federal law, which he wasn't. So it sounds like they are making up federal law, not range rules. I absolutely would have argued to prove them wrong. And they still may have asked you to leave. I would try to explain it to them, but some people aren't open to being proven wrong. That may end with them calling the cops and if you feel like dealing with more of your day wasted go for it. |
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And they still may have asked you to leave. I would try to explain it to them, but some people aren't open to being proven wrong. That may end with them calling the cops and if you feel like dealing with more of your day wasted go for it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Sucks, but their range their rules. They probably thought it was an SBR. None of this makes any sense. What was the range's rules? Anything they want. If they aren't comfortable with it they can ask him to leave. I don't agree with it, but they are within their rights. Did they ask OP to leave? Apparently they kept stating he was in violation of federal law, which he wasn't. So it sounds like they are making up federal law, not range rules. I absolutely would have argued to prove them wrong. And they still may have asked you to leave. I would try to explain it to them, but some people aren't open to being proven wrong. That may end with them calling the cops and if you feel like dealing with more of your day wasted go for it. Then I would have left. My point was against the stupid "their rage their rules" comments. If their rules were no braces, ok. But they were trying to tell OP he was breaking federal law, which just isn't true. That's not their rules. |
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Quoted: Then I would have left. My point was against the stupid "their rage their rules" comments. If their rules were no braces, ok. But they were trying to tell OP he was breaking federal law, which just isn't true. That's not their rules. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Anything they want. If they aren't comfortable with it they can ask him to leave. I don't agree with it, but they are within their rights. Did they ask OP to leave? Apparently they kept stating he was in violation of federal law, which he wasn't. So it sounds like they are making up federal law, not range rules. I absolutely would have argued to prove them wrong. And they still may have asked you to leave. I would try to explain it to them, but some people aren't open to being proven wrong. That may end with them calling the cops and if you feel like dealing with more of your day wasted go for it. Then I would have left. My point was against the stupid "their rage their rules" comments. If their rules were no braces, ok. But they were trying to tell OP he was breaking federal law, which just isn't true. That's not their rules. They can ask anyone to leave or not to shoot something for any reason they feel like. |
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http://i433.photobucket.com/albums/qq58/awesomedave_bucket/7568253A-9C5F-46CF-AF0C-D43FC4D153EE.gif View Quote I have a friend that does exactly that with his Sig Brace equipped SBR's stamp. He'll shoot it like intended, then switch to shouldering, get yelled at, switch back, etc, until they tell him to stop or leave, then he pulls out the paper. ![]() Kharn Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Seriously though, how is that a "brace" and not a "stock"? I get the sigbrace, at least on paper. This looks like a stock and squaks like a stock
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They can ask anyone to leave or not to shoot something for any reason they feel like. View Quote Not so much, anymore - the reasons can't be related to being part of a protected class. If the customer claims they're being asked to leave because they're gay, or not shoot their pink dildo-shaped pistol for the same kind of reason, the Obama DOJ will probably back them up, and they'll sue. Which is why we can't have nice things anymore. |
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Quoted: Not so much, anymore - the reasons can't be related to being part of a protected class. If the customer claims they're being asked to leave because they're gay, or not shoot their pink dildo-shaped pistol for the same kind of reason, the Obama DOJ will probably back them up, and they'll sue. Which is why we can't have nice things anymore. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: They can ask anyone to leave or not to shoot something for any reason they feel like. Not so much, anymore - the reasons can't be related to being part of a protected class. If the customer claims they're being asked to leave because they're gay, or not shoot their pink dildo-shaped pistol for the same kind of reason, the Obama DOJ will probably back them up, and they'll sue. Which is why we can't have nice things anymore. years ago a bunch of bars and clubs in Houston got in trouble for having unpublished dress codes. basically, if the door guy didn't want you inside, he would say that they didn't allow something the person was wearing as an excuse. iirc, they now have to have dress codes visible (or they used to) |
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You should at least spill which county. That'll keep your inbox from overflowing
and maybe even a few recommendations on better places for you to shoot... |
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For what it's worth, I have photographic copies of my tax stamps on my iPhone. If I ever need to show it to an authorized agent, I can. I also have miniaturized paper copies in all my range bags and rifle cases. Would I show them to a range Nazi...maybe....if he swallowed.
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there is an outdoor range I shoot at sometimes that banned all AR & AK pistols. doesn't matter if you have a padded buffer tube, sig brace, shockwave blade, or nothing at all.
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I've never had a safety officer asked me about any of my guns' legal documentation or standing.
I keep the tax stamp information available to save me a headache if I'm pulled over on the way over or back from the range , but I don't think it's any of their damn business. |
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My Blade came with a letter from the ATF certifying that it did not make a pistol an SBR.
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....."They were very professional and respectful the entire time."
No they weren't. |
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