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Quoted: I’ll get my popcorn and Diet Coke ready! This is going to be fun….18Z50 View Quote It was too extreme to say not exist, and I should not have been so aggressive in my wording. I really was not trying to start an argument here, so if it was construed that way I apologize, and I apologize for going further off topic here, but the point I was trying to make is that I think the navy should be doing more navy focused jobs. As an organization they should refocus their attention back on the things they have been historically very proficient at. Seeing them in more of a traditional type role makes way more sense to me. More of a maritime oriented role as was said above. I 100% do not think that the Navy has any business running around in land locked mountain nations. The Marines should not either for that matter. |
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Quoted: I have heard that recently (within the past 10 years or so) the Navy has been sending some SEALs through Army Ranger school to get a master's course in proper small unit tactics/skills - particularly to master map reading. So at least something has started happening to address these issues. I'm not sure if this is in reaction to "Lone Survivor" but either way it needed to be addressed. View Quote SEALs have been going through Ranger School for quite a while. We had one in our platoon (class 05/01) and he was a complete soup sandwich in the woods, weak on rucking, etc... maybe he was GOD tier in the water but he never got to Florida to show us. Chow came up missing out of rucks two times when he was assigned to stay back at the patrol base while we hit our target in Mountains. After that, one night he "fell" off the side of a cliff and got some injuries to his eye, body, etc. He got sent to the gulag and figured it would be a good idea to buy some Jack Daniel's and order a pizza from the joint on Camp Merrill. He was PNG'ed shortly after. Another Seal we talked to said mostly the guys sent there were there as a punishment/last chance with their Teams. If they couldn't get squared away they got dropped when they got home. A smaller subgroup was there to enhance their small unit tactics and test themselves in a new way. Didn't hear a single bad word about that 2nd SEAL from them. Small sample group but that's all I got. |
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I wanted to post something in this thread but I didn’t want to be disrespectful to the people who have way more insight into this than me or sound callous about the subject or the person involved. I’ve never been there or done that but I have a couple of questions.
Why was it important that the survivor was found having loaded mags in his carrier’s? Did he claim to be out of ammunition at some point and that it affected his actions or decisions? It’s said now that he was running away at some point. Was this during a fight or after or what? I’ve never read the book or seen the movie I’m just going on different things I’ve seen and read over the years. Thanks for any answers I get. RIP to those men. I think they deserved better than they got from the people who were supposed to be supporting them. |
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Quoted: Not sure how we could accurately determine it was 15 at most. I would expect more uncertainty than that. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: They were a SDV team that didn't have a lot of land warfare experience. This mission was shopped around and this SEAL team took it. They didn't have the right equipment and the mission was poorly planned. Prior to 9/11 the SDV teams were where you didn't want to go as a new SEAL. The whole thing about being attacked by dozens to hundreds of fighters is pure embellishment. Well respected authors and war writers have gone over loads of evidence and put the number of enemy fighters at 15 at most. Not sure how we could accurately determine it was 15 at most. I would expect more uncertainty than that. The insurgents had a cameramen along with our drone footage. One of two videos recorded by the insurgents have been released but not the second. There were 3 four man teams with a belt fed and rpg designated insurgent in each. They held the high ground and ambushed them in a gulch. |
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Quoted: SEALs have been going through Ranger School for quite a while. We had one in our platoon (class 05/01) and he was a complete soup sandwich in the woods, weak on rucking, etc... maybe he was GOD tier in the water but he never got to Florida to show us. View Quote IIRC, Ranger School used to be punishment for seals. That and since it has always been billed as a leadership school, not sure I would call it the be all end all for learning field craft. |
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Quoted: I wanted to post something in this thread but I didn’t want to be disrespectful to the people who have way more insight into this than me or sound callous about the subject or the person involved. I’ve never been there or done that but I have a couple of questions. Why was it important that the survivor was found having loaded mags in his carrier’s? Did he claim to be out of ammunition at some point and that it affected his actions or decisions? Yep...supposedly black on ammo. More BS. It’s said now that he was running away at some point. Was this during a fight or after or what? During I’ve never read the book or seen the movie I’m just going on different things I’ve seen and read over the years. Thanks for any answers I get. RIP to those men. I think they deserved better than they got from the people who were supposed to be supporting them. View Quote |
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It's a pity the gigantic Lone Survivor threads got archived. A lot of BTDT types gave some very interesting color on what happened to this civilian reading them.
The accusations in this podcast, as related by those of you who listened to it, frankly don't make sense. The opposition had enough control of the area to loot Dietz's body, and the controversial laptop but couldn't find Axelson? Who had no other set of comms, or ways to signal the orbiting drone that allegedly saw Luttrell running? (I think Luttrell just fell down the 2°-shy of vertical mountainside, rolling pretty much to Gulab's door, and out of the kill zone.. As one of you in those threads noted, if he falls into the other valley, he's found and he dies.) The ST-6 members didn't share the, "Oh by the way, we know there are Manpads where you're going. Good luck!", with the remainder of the QRF? Moreover, we knew they were Grails and not Stingers? We didn't have any kind of IR ECM that could be employed, either on rotary or fixed wing? The TOC is completely empty and something like a radio watch isn't constantly, redundantly running when there are clandestine OPs in Indian Country? (Who knows, maybe that one does happen? Seems slipshod.) |
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Is it inappropriate to say he looks like the kind of guy that would run. Reminds me of Private Pyle from Full Metal Jacket.
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I went through Ranger School (10-89) with a SEAL. He didn't make a good impression.
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Quoted: The accusations in this podcast, as related by those of you who listened to it, frankly don't make sense. The opposition had enough control of the area to loot Dietz's body, and the controversial laptop but couldn't find Axelson? Who had no other set of comms, or ways to signal the orbiting drone that allegedly saw Luttrell running? View Quote It seems odd. But one did get away, so maybe another did too, for awhile. Has the drone video been released? |
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Quoted: The ambush/enemy videos were a tough watch. Especially when they were playing with the equipment and treating the body(s) with disrespect. Enjoyed the movie though. Kind of like Black Hawk Down...not a movie I watch very often. I've heard so many conflicting stories, it's tough to separate the truth from embellishments. Like the rumor at one time that he came off the mountain with fully loaded mags. Or how the Afghan guy that helped was treated later, I'm sure there is two sides to that story. View Quote I especially liked the part where he went rolling down the mountain and almost landed in a diamondback rattlesnake-in the middle east. They couldn't find something that lives in that area? |
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After listening to that.
I never knew Axe was found near the rally point leaning against a tree and was supposedly alive for 6-7 days. Thought Riberts Ridge was worse until I learned that. (Assuming it's true) Do you think the Pred video wil come out ever? |
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Quoted: I doubt we will ever know the truth, for certain. When I see stuff like this, I immediately wonder how many of ANY of our "Hero" stories are true. Chesty Puller? Audie Murphy? Hacksaw Ridge? The flag-rasing at Iwo-Jima? People - especially veterans - are emotionally invested and NEED those stories to be true. To doubt or question them is seen as nearly treasonous. It appears that almost all of the heroic accounts in recent history have been at the very least exaggerated, if not mostly fabricated entirely. Also consider that the government NEEDS people to believe in these stories - whether they actually happened or not. It would be impossible to maintain any kind of military if there weren't stories of noble heroes accomplishing incredible things through heroic sacrifice. What does a government do if those situations aren't happening organically? It also conveniently makes it nearly impossible for anyone to question anything about the overall mission or objective, once someone has died while trying to accomplish it. Once someone dies - especially if under particularly heroic circumstances - many people consider questioning anything about the mission to be dishonoring those who died, or those who fought with them. The govt tried to do this with the "brave officers who died during Jan 6." It has worked with a large number of people. It would be foolish to think that you've never been fooled before, and that all of the heroic stories you do believe, actually happened that way. View Quote As someone who served in a very uninteresting and unimportant capacity. It makes sense to me when you consider how situations rarely lead to obviously heroic situations. There's this belief that there's this moment where a man knows he can make a stand on beliefs or principle. But more often than not it will pass you by without you understanding that was the moment to do something. So the ones who do were often in the right place at the right time more than "heroes who made a stand" |
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It was over in like 5 minutes. A couple of 3-4 man teams with PKMs did a near ambush on them, Luttrell was covering their rear and ran off as the others were smoked in short order. There were only about a dozen total Taliban fighters in the whole valley during that time frame.
It’s been covered many times here over the years. The book and movie are complete BS. |
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Quoted: When you find out the SFOD-D Ground Commander was written out of BHD and hired by Sig USA after he retired would you still believe what happened to Shugart and Gordon? https://media.defense.gov/2019/Jun/28/2002151579/-1/-1/0/181207-A-ZZ999-780.JPG View Quote How does Scott Miller play into that? |
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Quoted: 2hrs. What's the summary? View Quote Marine mission for a relatively low priority target. Marines don't have the proper equipment or training to fly there during that time of the month do to low/no light Find out 160th will/can do it, but 160th is SOF and mainly worked with SEALs at the time, so SEALS were chosen for the RECCE mission When they get found by shephards, SOP was to call in and ask, they can't get in contact. So they cut loose immediately. Come under fire, cannot get in contact, they've made all their radio checks, so word on the street is the TOC got lax and were outside playing and not constantly watching. Murphy has to call Virginia with sat phone so they could call the TOC. Finally word gets to their help. USMC already had QRF planned/ready, but SF wanted to keep internal. Shithooks loaded up and at last second 1st tier SEALS get pulled off the chopper because supposedly command knew of the SA7 threat but didn't tell anyone and pulled their guys so they didn't die. Chinook is hit right in the engine, typical of a SA7 not an inaccurate RPG. Other bird sees "swirling object" hit it. AKA a missed under guidance making corrections. Second bird was ready to offload help but get ordered back. During recovery of the downed bird get a signal from Marcus, guys stripped down and haul ass down there to find the village. When they get there they bring Marcus out. Marcus is found to be unhelpful and basically told them all his teammates are dead, and couldn't really tell them where exactly to find them. Marcus walked himself to the helicopter. Marcus telling him they're all dead put a hault to finding them ASAP so the recovery was slow rolled... they didn't want to risk more lives. 8-10 days later when SEALS from Germany arrive (again USMC still not asked for help) they FINALLY share the Rally Point position with the recovery teams. Find Axelson leaned up to a tree no too far away and he was supposedly only dead for 2 days when they found him. I missed the part where he kept repeating Marcus said on live air during a CNN interview in the early days, when Murphy called out for help he dropped his rifle, covered his ears and ran. Supposedly there is Predator video of him running away I probably missed some, typed on a phone, so probably lots of errors |
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Quoted: Marine mission for a relatively low priority target. Marines don't have the proper equipment or training to fly there during that time of the month do to low/no light Find out 160th will/can do it, but 160th is SOF and mainly worked with SEALs at the time, so SEALS were chosen for the RECCE mission When they get found by shephards, SOP was to call in and ask, they can't get in contact. So they cut loose immediately. Come under fire, cannot get in contact, they've made all their radio checks, so word on the street is the TOC got lax and were outside playing and not constantly watching. Murphy has to call Virginia with sat phone so they could call the TOC. Finally word gets to their help. USMC already had QRF planned/ready, but SF wanted to keep internal. Shithooks loaded up and at last second 1st tier SEALS get pulled off the chopper because supposedly command knew of the SA7 threat but didn't tell anyone and pulled their guys so they didn't die. Chinook is hit right in the engine, typical of a SA7 not an inaccurate RPG. Other bird sees "swirling object" hit it. AKA a missed under guidance making corrections. Second bird was ready to offload help but get ordered back. During recovery of the downed bird get a signal from Marcus, guys stripped down and haul ass down there to find the village. When they get there they bring Marcus out. Marcus is found to be unhelpful and basically told them all his teammates are dead, and couldn't really tell them where exactly to find them. Marcus walked himself to the helicopter. Marcus telling him they're all dead put a hault to finding them ASAP so the recovery was slow rolled... they didn't want to risk more lives. 8-10 days later when SEALS from Germany arrive (again USMC still not asked for help) they FINALLY share the Rally Point position with the recovery teams. Find Axelson leaned up to a tree no too far away and he was supposedly only dead for 2 days when they found him. I probably missed some, typed on a phone, so probably lots of errors View Quote I’d never heard this. If true … |
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I missed the part where he kept repeating Marcus said on live air during a CNN interview in the early days, when Murphy called out for help he dropped his rifle, covered his ears and ran.
Supposedly there is Predator video of him running away, guy on the podcast claims it was Marcus' first mission and contact. |
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What I don't understand, probably because I'm a civilian with no military background, is why such a small team to begin with? I get that they're technically just there to recon, but with 4 guys, if just one goes down, you're now at 75% effectiveness. The margin for error seems like 0.
Maybe that's just how it is with such missions? IDK. |
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I’m slow speed, high drag.
It’s my understanding from reading the books and watching the insurgent video that they were out maneuvered and outgunned. Basically an L shaped ambush that drove them to and over the cliffs. I can’t imagine losing friends and being alone in those hostile mountains. Marcus also deployed to Iraq, I believe, a year later before his medical discharge. I hope he finds peace. -An old Seabee @18B30 I was in Ramadi and then Haditha in 2005 so didn’t get a lot of news back then. |
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I thought to get a MOH it had to be witnessed by more than one person?
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Quoted: The mission wasn't shopped around. It was 2/3 Marines AOR, but needed support and the only support was SOF, and socom wanted a socom team to do it if there was going to be any support. So 2/3 gave them all the intel and atmospherics and logistics and socom used it as shit paper. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: When I read the book (long before the movie was in the works), as I got to the point where the helicopter crew drops the fast rope at the LZ, then the team doglegs to the objective... I had to re-read that part three of four times to make sure was reading it correctly. I know the book was ghostwritten by a non-military type but I have to take it that these were factual. Marking the point of insertion with the fastrope for the Hadjis was the kind of boot mistake which our experience in Vietnam should have informed them to never do. This was the undoing of the operation. And then the "rescue" team using the SAME LZ was another boot mistake that Vietnam taught us to never do - and they paid for it. I have heard from a few sources that Navy SEALs (at least until recently) were generally poor at map reading and dog-legging to an objective shows this to be the case. I'm not happy talking bad about fallen Americans but the lessons learned in Vietnam during the 1960's really should never have been forgotten - having already been paid for in blood. This is on the US Navy command for not remembering. They were a SDV team that didn't have a lot of land warfare experience. This mission was shopped around and this SEAL team took it. They didn't have the right equipment and the mission was poorly planned. Prior to 9/11 the SDV teams were where you didn't want to go as a new SEAL. The whole thing about being attacked by dozens to hundreds of fighters is pure embellishment. Well respected authors and war writers have gone over loads of evidence and put the number of enemy fighters at 15 at most. The mission wasn't shopped around. It was 2/3 Marines AOR, but needed support and the only support was SOF, and socom wanted a socom team to do it if there was going to be any support. So 2/3 gave them all the intel and atmospherics and logistics and socom used it as shit paper. There are multiple sources that claim the mission was reviewed by other teams and this UDT team were the first ones to say yes to doing it. |
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The book being absolute BS has been known for a while. Luttrell got (Jessica) Lynch'd to an extent I think.
I'm not familiar with this podcast but seems like quite a few "let's pick on the SEALs" stuff. Good virality bait. Hadn't heard about Axe being alive that long, crazy if true. Code over Country is decent, clearly biased, but decent. The author goes on Cleared Hot to take a few lumps, which is honorable. Victory Point is 100% a must read. Lone Survivor is a young adult action book basically. |
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Brent Tucker is making the rounds. A lot of it is clickbait BS.
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Quoted: There are multiple sources that claim the mission was reviewed by other teams and this UDT team were the first ones to say yes to doing it. View Quote No. They were the ones who were cleared to fly in 160th birds, so they took the OP. If 2/3 would have conducted it, no one would ever have even known this happened. No movie. No book. Three more seals alive (in addition to the chinook not going down) No lost laptop. That was the definition of a STA platoons job. Who ever thought sending a four man seal/sdv team in, well, was Probobly the same people that turned the afghanistan campaign in to what it became. Wrong tool for the job. The real heroic story is the rangers who humped in to extract the fallen. Which is ironically what 2/3 would have likely done to conduct their recon. But people above want eyes on now (of a not important at all target) and cool guys get cool assets. Let the grunts do grunt shit. The thought that luttrell was coerced in to carrying on with this narrative is an interesting and fairly believable one. Albeit a personal made hell. |
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Quoted: I thought to get a MOH it had to be witnessed by more than one person? View Quote I asked a few years ago how someone could be awarded a Navy Cross based on his own claims, and have two others and an MOH awarded based solely on his account and was told that there is drone footage that is supposed to support it. |
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Quoted: No. They were the ones who were cleared to fly in 160th birds, so they took the OP. If 2/3 would have conducted it, no one would ever have even known this happened. No movie. No book. Three more seals alive (in addition to the chinook not going down) No lost laptop. That was the definition of a STA platoons job. Who ever thought sending a four man seal/sdv team in, well, was Probobly the same people that turned the afghanistan campaign in to what it became. Wrong tool for the job. The real heroic story is the rangers who humped in to extract the fallen. Which is ironically what 2/3 would have likely done to conduct their recon. But people above want eyes on now (of a not important at all target) and cool guys get cool assets. Let the grunts do grunt shit. The thought that luttrell was coerced in to carrying on with this narrative is an interesting and fairly believable one. Albeit a personal made hell. View Quote I mentioned earlier in the thread about 2/3's STA platoon. They actually went in to the same area. Conducted a similar operation, just properly, and ended up smoking a shit ton of dudes after the op went kinetic. Because they had belt feds, pre-planned fires, appropriate comms, etc. |
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Quoted: srsly.. this is like a movie where 2 guys talk the whole time about mostly irrelevant shit. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: 2hrs. What's the summary? srsly.. this is like a movie where 2 guys talk the whole time about mostly irrelevant shit. Video / Podcast is the least efficient method of trnamsitting info. |
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Quoted: The lone survivor part starts around 1hr15 or so not sure on timestamp. Basically there was a massive coverup. Survivor is seen running away the entire time on overhead feed, they took the mission because marines wanted to use 160th but the 160th didn't work with those marines, survivor guy tells the truth but navy said you could either be a millionaire and say what we tell you or you can be broadcasted as a "coward" and destroy the SEALs image. He was found with full mags. Survivor told GB everyone was dead. Turns out axleson lived for days after ambush and would have been found sooner had survivor not claimed they all died. I'd listen to it though as I'm loosely regurgitating. View Quote |
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Quoted: No. They were the ones who were cleared to fly in 160th birds, so they took the OP. If 2/3 would have conducted it, no one would ever have even known this happened. No movie. No book. Three more seals alive (in addition to the chinook not going down) No lost laptop. That was the definition of a STA platoons job. Who ever thought sending a four man seal/sdv team in, well, was Probobly the same people that turned the afghanistan campaign in to what it became. Wrong tool for the job. The real heroic story is the rangers who humped in to extract the fallen. Which is ironically what 2/3 would have likely done to conduct their recon. But people above want eyes on now (of a not important at all target) and cool guys get cool assets. Let the grunts do grunt shit. The thought that luttrell was coerced in to carrying on with this narrative is an interesting and fairly believable one. Albeit a personal made hell. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: There are multiple sources that claim the mission was reviewed by other teams and this UDT team were the first ones to say yes to doing it. No. They were the ones who were cleared to fly in 160th birds, so they took the OP. If 2/3 would have conducted it, no one would ever have even known this happened. No movie. No book. Three more seals alive (in addition to the chinook not going down) No lost laptop. That was the definition of a STA platoons job. Who ever thought sending a four man seal/sdv team in, well, was Probobly the same people that turned the afghanistan campaign in to what it became. Wrong tool for the job. The real heroic story is the rangers who humped in to extract the fallen. Which is ironically what 2/3 would have likely done to conduct their recon. But people above want eyes on now (of a not important at all target) and cool guys get cool assets. Let the grunts do grunt shit. The thought that luttrell was coerced in to carrying on with this narrative is an interesting and fairly believable one. Albeit a personal made hell. They were but not the only ones. Like I said there's a lot of reporting out there about this mission being presented to other teams that declined it. I'm not talking about the 2/3 guys. Thats the whole reason they had to find someone else to take on the initial insert. The SDV guys were not the ONLY team this OP was presented to. |
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Quoted: I especially liked the part where he went rolling down the mountain and almost landed in a diamondback rattlesnake-in the middle east. They couldn't find something that lives in that area? View Quote Honestly this is the part of the movie that made me lose all hope for the film. I even re-wound it to make sure it was a diamondback. It disproportionately pissed me off. It made me question everything else in the film and I’ve only watched it once because of that stupid snake. |
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Quoted: This is the first time I've ever heard the claim that Axelson lived "for days". View Quote I’m not making a statement. Just repeating what the podcast said for those that didn’t want to watch. Once again, I have no dog in this fight and have no comment on this matter/execution/heroics. Nothing I said were my own words, they were paraphrased from the podcast. |
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Quoted: When you find out the SFOD-D Ground Commander was written out of BHD and hired by Sig USA after he retired would you still believe what happened to Shugart and Gordon? https://media.defense.gov/2019/Jun/28/2002151579/-1/-1/0/181207-A-ZZ999-780.JPG View Quote The Gordon and Shugart story makes a whole lot more sense when you read the real story and realize they planned on having their chopper cover them with a minigun until about 10 minutes after dropping the snipers off it was hit by an RPG and almost crashed. Four helicopters were hit with RPGs that day but two managed to not crash inside the city. If their bird wasn't shot down it's very likely they could have pulled Durant out and extracted him. |
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Quoted: It's surreal seeing these guy's on podcasts speaking of in house politics and being critical of the organization. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Brent Tucker is making the rounds. A lot of it is clickbait BS. It's surreal seeing these guy's on podcasts speaking of in house politics and being critical of the organization. Brent Tucker is a Delta guy. He spends his time talking about NSW's dirty laundry and getting clicks. Maybe he should talk about his own units wrong doings as there is plenty. An active or very recently retired A Squadron guy didn't have good things to say about Brent. Pretty interesting. |
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After seeing the [Deleted] video of them stripping Murphy's body of his gear, I hope everyone of them met a very painful death. Especially the one that sat on his chest for a little propaganda piece. I hope that guy died in pieces.
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Quoted: I'm not making a statement. Just repeating what the podcast said for those that didn't want to watch. Once again, I have no dog in this fight and have no comment on this matter/execution/heroics. Nothing I said were my own words, they were paraphrased from the podcast. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: This is the first time I've ever heard the claim that Axelson lived "for days". I'm not making a statement. Just repeating what the podcast said for those that didn't want to watch. Once again, I have no dog in this fight and have no comment on this matter/execution/heroics. Nothing I said were my own words, they were paraphrased from the podcast. coming up on the 19th anniversary of that debacle, and it's the first I'm reading anything like that. |
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