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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:14:58 AM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Wrong. The love money is the root of all evil. Money is just an innanimate object. It can't do anything a person doesn't let it. Like guns. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. This... Money is the root of all evil. Wrong. The love money is the root of all evil. Money is just an innanimate object. It can't do anything a person doesn't let it. Like guns. And drones. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:15:38 AM EST
[#2]
Bonjour!
The Pershing reference made it for me, though. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:16:25 AM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lol this and we make fun of dems who believe the liberal media |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:20:20 AM EST
[#4]
OP, use the quote box so people know you are quoting a letter, and not writing one.
Looks like this.
-A Quotation |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:23:25 AM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh, you guys think this is a bunch of crap? (not sarcasm) I was gonna say, either this guy is for real, or he's watched all the same stuff about AFG as I have. exactly |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:23:29 AM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's Obama Derangement Syndrome. It's the same thing that happened to all the lefties under Bush. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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What has happened on ARFCOM? Seriously, 5 or 7 years ago this Marine (if he is one, anonymous and all) would have been shredded here, made out to e a traitor? Lots of people here have converted into whiny basement dwelling anti-war activists. It's Obama Derangement Syndrome. It's the same thing that happened to all the lefties under Bush. I think it has more to do with our announced withdrawl when the mission was far from being completed. There is no reason to stay one more day when we know the Taliban are not defeated and are taking over as soon as we are gone. If we don't have the will to do what it takes to win the war, then why sacrifice any more of our soldiers for a lost cause? |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:23:32 AM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This... Money is the root of all evil. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. This... Money is the root of all evil. “The man who damns money has obtained it dishonorably; the man who respects it has earned it.” - Ayn Rand, Atlas Shrugged |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:23:52 AM EST
[#8]
I thought 9/11 was the wake up call. ended up just being the nap that got us into this mess. The Generals and other officers tell the president and congress what needs to be done but the manhood ends at that. I believe a nuke in a major US city by the extremists would be the only thing loud enough to wake the American people up, a slap in the face i.e 9/11 didn't !!!
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:24:36 AM EST
[#9]
Quoted:
I am back in Afghanistan. There is no mission, no strategy. The Muslims have us pretty well figured out. They ask, ask and ask. We then give, give and give. The commander to balks at the cycle? He is replaced by someone who will go along. The Afghans are great allies--- so long as we bribe them with goods, services, and money. They turn when we leave. Just recently, an advisor team was ordered away from an Afghan Uniformed Police team in the south because, as higher headquarters claims, they were fully trained and operational independent of ISAF help. Just the other day, the chief of police for that team was caught on our drone assets delivering a Humvee-full of weapons and ammunition to a Taliban member who is targeted for death. Of course we did not drone strike him because, after all, this is what winning looks like. We work with allied local national linguists. Hazaras, Tajiks, and Pashtuns. Every so often, I have one of these men come to my door and ask to speak privately. They then explain--- and beg me to not tell anyone--- that they do not consider themselves Muslim, but have to go along or be killed. They ask me to help them with their visa packages to escape this Islamist hell. I do. I prod these linguists with those questions that would perk the ears of an Islamic supremist. I have identified some whom I will not trust. But there are others who recognize that Islam is the problem in Afghanistan. One is a secret Christian. They want away from Islam and America is the last place where it is safe to go. For now. I feel like these guys who have seen what Islam is are the survivors. We need them. They are like the survivors who escaped to America from the Soviet bloc and pled with tears in their eyes for America to not vote for Obama. They know what is coming because they have seen it. I do not think that Islam can be readily defeated through intellect. They are beyond it. Only sheer violence and force can stop them, only liberating those who will be liberated and using the superstition of their religion against them will work. General Pershing understood this 100 years ago. I am afraid America will not really get this until the most extreme circumstance arises. My time in the Marine Corps is coming to an end. I could stay in the organization as long as I wish, but I feel there is no point. All the talented officers I know are resigning. We can’t bear to stay in and see what is happening. We are a social-experiment over and above the world’s premier war-fighting organization now. This is what America wants. This is what America has voted for twice. Me and people like me look to get out and blend in with society at large. The consensus is that the time will come when America wants people like us again, but only after this new experimental drive has run its course. It will end how it has to end: in class war, race war, free men vs statists. Completely predictable. At that time, the blood and sweat and broken hearts pressed from America’s fighting men and women over a decade of counter-insurgency warfare will rise up and be our nation’s salvation. As always, please keep my identity secret. The system is no longer partial to my kind. XXXXX Captain, USMC From--- http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2013/07/a-letter-from-a-marine-captain-in-afghanistan.html Thats odd, a soldier who isnt pleased with his mission, such a rare thing...... |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:25:16 AM EST
[#10]
This is what winning looks like made me lol
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:27:56 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sounds like one of those facebook posts. Not that it matters any. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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lol Sounds like one of those facebook posts. Not that it matters any. Not bad... thats where I first saw it. It kind of reeked of being fake, but I wanted to see what the experts on GD thought. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:28:25 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Holy hell. An anonymous post to a blog that pretty much says what everyone has known about Afghanistan since _Seven Pillars of Wisdom_ was written by TE Lawrence. I need to get to the fainting couch!  |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:30:15 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
without an author it aint really worth much - 9 star general USMC
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:32:42 AM EST
[#14]
I smell Bullshit.
OP's post is not indiciative of someone with a college education. OP watched the VICE documentary: This is what winning looks like. He even quoted the damn title in his post. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:33:45 AM EST
[#15]
So wait ... you can't impose Western civilization and Jeffersonian democracy, or even basic civil order, on a bunch of savages? And using a fighting force whose job is to break things and kill people, to try to do that, doesn't work well?
Wow, who would have every thought that. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:38:00 AM EST
[#16]
Have a buddy who was a Sgt in the Army, got out about 4-5 months ago after serving 16 years. Of course myself and everyone is saying "but you only have 4 more til..." but he then describes he can't stand it and he's leaving for exactly stuff like this. Also says the training now (NTC aside) is too much fucking excel and ppt and feels bad for all the new guys just getting in. The good news is he's working on getting into LE and he's one of the good guys.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:41:09 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Well, he's part of the problem if he wont put his name to it, but I'm leaning more towards fake 'letter'. Oh, I doubt it's fake. At least, not all of it. I just doubt it reflects a large picture of experience in theater. Instteas, it reflects an attitude and belief this guy had long before he ever joined the Marine Corps, and now he believes he is in a position to lend his views more credibility. He sees what he expects to see, hears what he expects to hear. It reflects a profound ignorance of not only the Philippine Insurrection (an assumption of mine from the Pershing reference) but also the role of religion and culture in Central and Southern Asia. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:46:16 AM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Indeed. Has been the issue all long. No one can figure that place out because it's basically where God stuck all the leftovers. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. Indeed. Has been the issue all long. No one can figure that place out because it's basically where God stuck all the leftovers. Been there twice. Tend to agree. I met some good Muslims (ANSF or even just locals that stuck their necks out to support us) and some shitty Christians (NATO partners). The broader problems are those in Afghani society, not necessarily in Islam. I think rampant drug abuse & narcoeconomics, systematic & widespread child abuse (and rape), persistent corruption leading to terrible grinding poverty, literally decades of civil war with all the detritus of death (landmines, physical injuries, psychological problems, etc) and a soul-crushing lack of educational opportunity are probably bigger issues than whether the dude prays to Mecca or Rome or wherever. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:46:29 AM EST
[#19]
It was too well written for the author to have been a Marine. If it WAS written by a Marine you would see fecal smears and crayon.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:48:18 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It was too well written for the author to have been a Marine. If it WAS written by a Marine you would see fecal smears and crayon. Aw fuck |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:52:52 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: It was too well written for the author to have been a Marine. If it WAS written by a Marine you would see fecal smears and crayon. He probably had a sailor write it for him. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:53:05 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
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without an author it aint really worth much - 9 star general USMC 
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Posted: 8/5/2013 6:57:19 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Been there twice. Tend to agree. I met some good Muslims (ANSF or even just locals that stuck their necks out to support us) and some shitty Christians (NATO partners). The broader problems are those in Afghani society, not necessarily in Islam. I think rampant drug abuse & narcoeconomics, systematic & widespread child abuse (and rape), persistent corruption leading to terrible grinding poverty, literally decades of civil war with all the detritus of death (landmines, physical injuries, psychological problems, etc) and a soul-crushing lack of educational opportunity are probably bigger issues than whether the dude prays to Mecca or Rome or wherever. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. Indeed. Has been the issue all long. No one can figure that place out because it's basically where God stuck all the leftovers. Been there twice. Tend to agree. I met some good Muslims (ANSF or even just locals that stuck their necks out to support us) and some shitty Christians (NATO partners). The broader problems are those in Afghani society, not necessarily in Islam. I think rampant drug abuse & narcoeconomics, systematic & widespread child abuse (and rape), persistent corruption leading to terrible grinding poverty, literally decades of civil war with all the detritus of death (landmines, physical injuries, psychological problems, etc) and a soul-crushing lack of educational opportunity are probably bigger issues than whether the dude prays to Mecca or Rome or wherever. This. If you go there looking to blame it on Islam, you will find plenty of evidence to do so, no doubt. If you look at the problem without such bias, and assess how Islam is experienced in neighboring countries, and even how differently within that country, you will probably quickly realize that is not the most important variable at play. One would think that a country plagued with such a long history of civil wars and factional infighting, all by people identifying as Muslim, would put an end to the "Islam as some unifying ideology" rhetoric espoused by so many here. But no, it is best to only observe things that reinforce your predetermined conclusion. More fascinating for me have been the Yugoslavia threads over the years. The way some people excuse or downplay Serbian or Croatian atrocities in the 1990s is remarkable. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:00:50 AM EST
[#24]
...My time in the Marine Corps is coming to an end. I could stay in the organization as long as I wish, but I feel there is no point. All the talented officers I know are resigning. We can’t bear to stay in and see what is happening. We are a social-experiment over and above the world’s premier war-fighting organization now. This is what America wants. This is what America has voted for twice. Me and people like me look to get out and blend in with society at large. The consensus is that the time will come when America wants people like us again, but only after this new experimental drive has run its course. It will end how it has to end: in class war, race war, free men vs statists. Completely predictable. At that time, the blood and sweat and broken hearts pressed from America’s fighting men and women over a decade of counter-insurgency warfare will rise up and be our nation’s salvation... Dramatic hyperbole has no place in serious conversations about national security strategy...Guy needs to tone it down and lay off the caffeine if he wants to be taken seriously. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:04:24 AM EST
[#25]
This
Sad but it sounds as if nothing has changed Hadji cannot be trusted Quote HistoryQuoted:
Thank You for your service , MARINE. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:06:07 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dramatic hyperbole has no place in serious conversations about national security strategy...Guy needs to tone it down and lay off the caffeine if he wants to be taken seriously. Quote HistoryQuoted:
...My time in the Marine Corps is coming to an end. I could stay in the organization as long as I wish, but I feel there is no point. All the talented officers I know are resigning. We can’t bear to stay in and see what is happening. We are a social-experiment over and above the world’s premier war-fighting organization now. This is what America wants. This is what America has voted for twice. Me and people like me look to get out and blend in with society at large. The consensus is that the time will come when America wants people like us again, but only after this new experimental drive has run its course. It will end how it has to end: in class war, race war, free men vs statists. Completely predictable. At that time, the blood and sweat and broken hearts pressed from America’s fighting men and women over a decade of counter-insurgency warfare will rise up and be our nation’s salvation... Dramatic hyperbole has no place in serious conversations about national security strategy...Guy needs to tone it down and lay off the caffeine if he wants to be taken seriously. That was the second best part. I'm sure some here think his views about the inevitable class wars and race wars and about voting for Obama are things that he also developed in Afghanistan. For the rest of us, they tell us a lot about the filter through which he observes the world around him, and it thus bears directly on the rest. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:07:53 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
This. If you go there looking to blame it on Islam, you will find plenty of evidence to do so, no doubt. If you look at the problem without such bias, and assess how Islam is experienced in neighboring countries, and even how differently within that country, you will probably quickly realize that is not the most important variable at play. One would think that a country plagued with such a long history if civil wars and factional infighting, all by people identifying as Muslim, would put an end to the "Islam as some unifying ideology" rhetoric espoused by so many here. But no, it is best to only observe things that reinforce your predetermined conclusion. More fascinating for me have been the Yugoslavia threads over the years. The way some people excuse or downplay Serbian or Croatian atrocities in the 1990s is remarkable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. Indeed. Has been the issue all long. No one can figure that place out because it's basically where God stuck all the leftovers. Been there twice. Tend to agree. I met some good Muslims (ANSF or even just locals that stuck their necks out to support us) and some shitty Christians (NATO partners). The broader problems are those in Afghani society, not necessarily in Islam. I think rampant drug abuse & narcoeconomics, systematic & widespread child abuse (and rape), persistent corruption leading to terrible grinding poverty, literally decades of civil war with all the detritus of death (landmines, physical injuries, psychological problems, etc) and a soul-crushing lack of educational opportunity are probably bigger issues than whether the dude prays to Mecca or Rome or wherever. This. If you go there looking to blame it on Islam, you will find plenty of evidence to do so, no doubt. If you look at the problem without such bias, and assess how Islam is experienced in neighboring countries, and even how differently within that country, you will probably quickly realize that is not the most important variable at play. One would think that a country plagued with such a long history if civil wars and factional infighting, all by people identifying as Muslim, would put an end to the "Islam as some unifying ideology" rhetoric espoused by so many here. But no, it is best to only observe things that reinforce your predetermined conclusion. More fascinating for me have been the Yugoslavia threads over the years. The way some people excuse or downplay Serbian or Croatian atrocities in the 1990s is remarkable. I honestly believe that Islam is not the problem, its just one of the most effective tools for modern despots and warlord to exert additional control over vast groups of poor uneducated violent tribes. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:08:23 AM EST
[#28]
Islam, both Deobandi and Wahabi influences are a major contributing factor to many places like Afghanistan will not make progress; if you believe that everything is God's will it makes it hard to plan or avoid the fatalism you see in the country.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:10:55 AM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That was the second best part. I'm sure some here think his views about the inevitable class wars and race wars and about voting for Obama are things that he also developed in Afghanistan. For the rest of us, they tell us a lot about the filter through which he observes the world around him, and it thus bears directly on the rest. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
...My time in the Marine Corps is coming to an end. I could stay in the organization as long as I wish, but I feel there is no point. All the talented officers I know are resigning. We can’t bear to stay in and see what is happening. We are a social-experiment over and above the world’s premier war-fighting organization now. This is what America wants. This is what America has voted for twice. Me and people like me look to get out and blend in with society at large. The consensus is that the time will come when America wants people like us again, but only after this new experimental drive has run its course. It will end how it has to end: in class war, race war, free men vs statists. Completely predictable. At that time, the blood and sweat and broken hearts pressed from America’s fighting men and women over a decade of counter-insurgency warfare will rise up and be our nation’s salvation... Dramatic hyperbole has no place in serious conversations about national security strategy...Guy needs to tone it down and lay off the caffeine if he wants to be taken seriously. That was the second best part. I'm sure some here think his views about the inevitable class wars and race wars and about voting for Obama are things that he also developed in Afghanistan. For the rest of us, they tell us a lot about the filter through which he observes the world around him, and it thus bears directly on the rest. It would make better sense if he just lamented the inability of senior military leadership to make legitimate recommendations to our policy makers. I would make even better sense of he pointed out that our congress could have pulled us from that county at any time if they gave enough of a shit. Instead, he focuses on small irritation items that by and large don't effect the conflict he is protesting. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:13:17 AM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Islam, both Deobandi and Wahabi influences are a major contributing factor to many places like Afghanistan will not make progress; if you believe that everything is God's will it makes it hard to plan or avoid the fatalism you see in the country. That's not the root of the problem. It's just shit that broken people accept. Wen your life cap is around 50, half of our kids die before they turn 2, and your country is run drug dealers who dont care about you tucked way back in the mountains at some point you have to accept some reality. Islam is a great reality for those people. Plus you can get em to do shit. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:20:39 AM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I honestly believe that Islam is not the problem, its just one of the most effective tools for modern despots and warlord to exert additional control over vast groups of poor uneducated violent tribes. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
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Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. Indeed. Has been the issue all long. No one can figure that place out because it's basically where God stuck all the leftovers. Been there twice. Tend to agree. I met some good Muslims (ANSF or even just locals that stuck their necks out to support us) and some shitty Christians (NATO partners). The broader problems are those in Afghani society, not necessarily in Islam. I think rampant drug abuse & narcoeconomics, systematic & widespread child abuse (and rape), persistent corruption leading to terrible grinding poverty, literally decades of civil war with all the detritus of death (landmines, physical injuries, psychological problems, etc) and a soul-crushing lack of educational opportunity are probably bigger issues than whether the dude prays to Mecca or Rome or wherever. This. If you go there looking to blame it on Islam, you will find plenty of evidence to do so, no doubt. If you look at the problem without such bias, and assess how Islam is experienced in neighboring countries, and even how differently within that country, you will probably quickly realize that is not the most important variable at play. One would think that a country plagued with such a long history if civil wars and factional infighting, all by people identifying as Muslim, would put an end to the "Islam as some unifying ideology" rhetoric espoused by so many here. But no, it is best to only observe things that reinforce your predetermined conclusion. More fascinating for me have been the Yugoslavia threads over the years. The way some people excuse or downplay Serbian or Croatian atrocities in the 1990s is remarkable. I honestly believe that Islam is not the problem, its just one of the most effective tools for modern despots and warlord to exert additional control over vast groups of poor uneducated violent tribes. The Soviets dealt very effectively with the issue in Central Asia. So effectively that their unplanned departure form the region in 1991 did not change the political role of Islam much at all, other than symbolically and in platitudes. Sure, there are terror groups that have sprung up, but the local governments have fought them in their own ways. Kyrgyzstan had an Islamist political party intheir last elections, won less than 1% of the vote. Tajikistan was the one exception, and much of that was bleedover from Afghanistan issues going way back. Afghanistan was just a different animal. The unique aspects of Afghan culture, combined with the fact that ideology seemed to trump practical mesures (sound familiar?) seems to have hindered them greatly. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:22:14 AM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It would make better sense if he just lamented the inability of senior military leadership to make legitimate recommendations to our policy makers. That's impossible. Recommendations require a strategy. In other words, give me your desired ends, and I will tell you the ways and means. Strategy, among other things, is a manifestation of political will. Obama ran on a platform of "Everything my predecessor did was wrong. It is now time to mend fences with the world. The rage against US foreign policy is a justified response of victimized people." Of those three things, only the last might have any merit, and then only the barest merit. If there are people that should be enraged about US foreign policy, it should be the Kurds and young urban Iranians. I don't know if we could have any intelligible war aims, when we've fought the war (itself a war that morphed out of recognition, and that we didn't properly contextualize) with two fundamentally different views of the end state. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:28:07 AM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Islam, both Deobandi and Wahabi influences are a major contributing factor to many places like Afghanistan will not make progress; if you believe that everything is God's will it makes it hard to plan or avoid the fatalism you see in the country. The Russians remain convinced that many of these problems are rooted in our Cold War support of the Saudi state and willingness to exploit extremist religious views in the fight against Communism. It's hard not to admit they have a point. The CIA was apparently even involved in trying to spread Wahabbist interpretations in the region. Wahabbism remains a dirty word among even the devout Muslims in Central Asia, those attending Madrassas and what not - not the secular types. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:35:17 AM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Soviets dealt very effectively with the issue in Central Asia. So effectively that their unplanned departure form the region in 1991 did not change the political role of Islam much at all, other than symbolically and in platitudes. I think comparing Tajikistan or Kazakhstan with Afghanstan is flawed. No nation on the planet has been as fundamentally destroyed, first by internal revolution, then civil war, then by foreign invasion, and then by a multipart civil war/foreign invasion, as Afghanistan. As a friend described, our mission in Afghanistan was to take a china vase that was hit by freight train, and then run over by a steamroller, back together again, using only hammers. Islam was, in many ways, the only social structure left. We did make a number of errors, and honestly I think that no understanding our own history as a state was chief among them, as was believing the Euros when they said they knew fuck-all about nation-building. Thus, we stood back as a bunch of European poli sci folks tried to create some Swedish style democracy. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:39:40 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Apease the muslims. that is what Obama is doing. C'mon, it always works.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:40:35 AM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
The Russians remain convinced that many of these problems are rooted in our Cold War support of the Saudi state and willingness to exploit extremist religious views in the fight against Communism. It's hard not to admit they have a point. The CIA was apparently even involved in trying to spread Wahabbist interpretations in the region. Wahabbism remains a dirty word among even the devout Muslims in Central Asia, those attending Madrassas and what not - not the secular types. You dance with the one that brung ya. Of course we used the Saudis, because the Saudis were face of Islam that was acceptable to other Muslim countries when we tried to operate in the region. And, guess what? Allies and co-belligerents have their own agendas that they are pursuing. Ultimately, its laughable when the Russians complain about mis-/dis- and uninformation in the battle space in Central Asia, and laughable that their control of the area wasn't fundamentally by force. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:41:12 AM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think comparing Tajikistan or Kazakhstan with Afghanstan is flawed. No nation on the planet has been as fundamentally destroyed, first by internal revolution, then civil war, then by foreign invasion, and then by a multipart civil war/foreign invasion, as Afghanistan. As a friend described, our mission in Afghanistan was to take a china vase that was hit by freight train, and then run over by a steamroller, back together again, using only hammers. Islam was, in many ways, the only social structure left. We did make a number of errors, and honestly I think that no understanding our own history as a state was chief among them, as was believing the Euros when they said they knew fuck-all about nation-building. Thus, we stood back as a bunch of European poli sci folks tried to create some Swedish style democracy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
The Soviets dealt very effectively with the issue in Central Asia. So effectively that their unplanned departure form the region in 1991 did not change the political role of Islam much at all, other than symbolically and in platitudes. I think comparing Tajikistan or Kazakhstan with Afghanstan is flawed. No nation on the planet has been as fundamentally destroyed, first by internal revolution, then civil war, then by foreign invasion, and then by a multipart civil war/foreign invasion, as Afghanistan. As a friend described, our mission in Afghanistan was to take a china vase that was hit by freight train, and then run over by a steamroller, back together again, using only hammers. Islam was, in many ways, the only social structure left. We did make a number of errors, and honestly I think that no understanding our own history as a state was chief among them, as was believing the Euros when they said they knew fuck-all about nation-building. Thus, we stood back as a bunch of European poli sci folks tried to create some Swedish style democracy. Dont you think Lebanon or maybe Somalia are runners up for equally destroyed? |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:44:09 AM EST
[#38]
No doubts.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:47:03 AM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
That's not the root of the problem. It's just shit that broken people accept. Wen your life cap is around 50, half of our kids die before they turn 2, and your country is run drug dealers who dont care about you tucked way back in the mountains at some point you have to accept some reality. Islam is a great reality for those people. Plus you can get em to do shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Islam, both Deobandi and Wahabi influences are a major contributing factor to many places like Afghanistan will not make progress; if you believe that everything is God's will it makes it hard to plan or avoid the fatalism you see in the country. That's not the root of the problem. It's just shit that broken people accept. Wen your life cap is around 50, half of our kids die before they turn 2, and your country is run drug dealers who dont care about you tucked way back in the mountains at some point you have to accept some reality. Islam is a great reality for those people. Plus you can get em to do shit. It basically a which came first the chicken or the egg argument. The problem is the people in AFG live like Pustoons, who themselves live like Indo-Irainians tribes, which live like Arab tribes, which Islam is based on |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:49:53 AM EST
[#40]
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no Afghani can read the Koran..... but you can buy one for a few Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. Afghan culture is like Islam on steroids. An Afghani is the unit of currency produced by the nation of Afghanistan, Afghans are the people Most Afghani can't read the Koran let alone understand it....it has the same problem most countries like it have. The smart ones get hell out of it.....or take advantage of the uneducated ones. no Afghani can read the Koran..... but you can buy one for a few LOL.........sorry Afghan. I could have used the name the Arabs call them.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:51:57 AM EST
[#41]
They may not be able to read it, as a vast majority of Muslims cannot. However many can recite it from memory in classic Arabic, although even most Arabs cannot understand classic Arabic.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:52:09 AM EST
[#42]
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Dont you think Lebanon or maybe Somalia are runners up for equally destroyed? Lebanon...no way. Somalia, perhaps. However, the level of just raw combat power that was dumped into Afghanistan dwarves anything in Somalia. At one point, non-state actors were launching IRBMs at each other in A-stan. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:53:48 AM EST
[#43]
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They may not be able to read it, as a vast majority of Muslims cannot. However many can recite it from memory in classic Arabic, although even most Arabs cannot understand classic Arabic. I can quote the bible........... 
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Posted: 8/5/2013 7:59:16 AM EST
[#44]
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What has happened on ARFCOM? Seriously, 5 or 7 years ago this Marine (if he is one, anonymous and all) would have been shredded here, made out to e a traitor? Some are starting to see the light that all the spending and Ameican blood spilled will yield exactly zilch there. When a person spoke against the large invasion of Afgan by saying we did not need to go big foot print and should have just went SF/CIA and B52 got told we are killing them overthere instead of here. Make a statement about just applying B52's as needed in the future is some type of CoC violation advocating murdering innocent people. (never understood that one). The support base and logistics channel on the other side of the border was off limits. The ISI was actively feeding intelligence to the enemy, Pakistan is not our friend. The whole thing collapses and the Taliban is back in charge three months or less after we leave. This war has been an absolute waste of American lives. <---has been saying it since we went in that it was a mistake. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 8:03:40 AM EST
[#45]
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I think comparing Tajikistan or Kazakhstan with Afghanstan is flawed. No nation on the planet has been as fundamentally destroyed, first by internal revolution, then civil war, then by foreign invasion, and then by a multipart civil war/foreign invasion, as Afghanistan. As a friend described, our mission in Afghanistan was to take a china vase that was hit by freight train, and then run over by a steamroller, back together again, using only hammers. Islam was, in many ways, the only social structure left. We did make a number of errors, and honestly I think that no understanding our own history as a state was chief among them, as was believing the Euros when they said they knew fuck-all about nation-building. Thus, we stood back as a bunch of European poli sci folks tried to create some Swedish style democracy. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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The Soviets dealt very effectively with the issue in Central Asia. So effectively that their unplanned departure form the region in 1991 did not change the political role of Islam much at all, other than symbolically and in platitudes. I think comparing Tajikistan or Kazakhstan with Afghanstan is flawed. No nation on the planet has been as fundamentally destroyed, first by internal revolution, then civil war, then by foreign invasion, and then by a multipart civil war/foreign invasion, as Afghanistan. As a friend described, our mission in Afghanistan was to take a china vase that was hit by freight train, and then run over by a steamroller, back together again, using only hammers. Islam was, in many ways, the only social structure left. We did make a number of errors, and honestly I think that no understanding our own history as a state was chief among them, as was believing the Euros when they said they knew fuck-all about nation-building. Thus, we stood back as a bunch of European poli sci folks tried to create some Swedish style democracy. You are only reinforcing my point that "Islam" is not the driving variable here. When you start with an assumption that "Islam" is the problem, and then try to do away with a cultural and religous identity that is rooted that deeply and associated with all that is good, holy, and righteos among a population, you don't get very far. The Soviets started that way, repeating the disastrous experiences of teh Russian Empire. They then got smart, quick. Before long, it was Jihad vs. Jihad and the Soviets presented themselves as defenders of true Islam in propaganda. Was it genuine? Hell no. Was it often brutal? Hell yes. Was it effective? I would trust the home grown vetting processes, internal security controls, and reliability of the Uzbek security forces over anything we half-ass have done in Afghanistan - and I rarely met one that was not a proud, self identified Muslim. Divide and conquer is an old adage for a reason. It works. You don't divide a culture by attacking the only identity label they all share in common. Agreed on the Euros and poli sci types. They don't get it. The ongoing Franco thread has more to offer about what works than all the touchy feely human rights focus in the world. Maslowe's hierarchy of needs applies to societies as well as individuals. |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 8:06:07 AM EST
[#46]
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I can quote the bible........... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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They may not be able to read it, as a vast majority of Muslims cannot. However many can recite it from memory in classic Arabic, although even most Arabs cannot understand classic Arabic. I can quote the bible........... Can you recite the whole thing in a say latin from memory? |
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Posted: 8/5/2013 8:08:17 AM EST
[#47]
The difference in the Russian Stans and AFG, is the Russians imposed unislamic education and government on them.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 8:11:55 AM EST
[#48]
Even when you are fight, you look like a fool if you resort to this type of propoganda.
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Posted: 8/5/2013 8:14:59 AM EST
[#49]
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LOL.........sorry Afghan. I could have used the name the Arabs call them. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Problem in AFG isn't Islam.....it's the Afghani.. Afghan culture is like Islam on steroids. An Afghani is the unit of currency produced by the nation of Afghanistan, Afghans are the people Most Afghani can't read the Koran let alone understand it....it has the same problem most countries like it have. The smart ones get hell out of it.....or take advantage of the uneducated ones. no Afghani can read the Koran..... but you can buy one for a few LOL.........sorry Afghan. I could have used the name the Arabs call them. smelly goat fucker? because I think "highbrow" Arabs call em that also
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Posted: 8/5/2013 8:26:10 AM EST
[#50]
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This war has been an absolute waste of American lives. <---has been saying it since we went in that it was a mistake. Its September 30th, 2001. What does President BamaShooter do? |
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