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Posted: 12/13/2017 1:30:59 PM EDT
https://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/your-marine-corps/2017/12/11/new-in-2018-corps-adopts-m855a1-round/
The Army’s M855A1 round has proved a deadlier bullet than the Corps’ M855 5.56mm round, said Chris Woodburn of the Corps’ Combat Development Command. “The M855A1 provides improved performance over the current M855, 5.56mm round in a lead-free form factor, and provides improved steel penetration, hard- and soft-target terminal effects, with more consistent terminal effects than the M855 at ranges out to 600 meters,” Woodburn told Marine Corps Times. In testing, the Army round caused “some durability issues” for the Marine Corps’ M27 Infantry Automatic Rifle, Brig. Gen. Joseph Shrader, MARCORYSCOM’s commanding officer, told Senators in June. Even though the M855A1 reduces the IAR’s durability, the M27 is still “operationally suitable” when firing the Army rounds, Woodburn said. |
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So the HK rifles aren't as awesome as they/joglee make them sound?
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So the HK rifles aren't as awesome as they/joglee make them sound? View Quote And he changed his opinion after hearing from some true SMEs on the M27/HK416. Thread content: Somewhere in Germany, an HK executive greedily rubs his hands together while marking up the price of Das Bolts. |
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So the HK rifles aren't as awesome as they/joglee make them sound? View Quote I believe the M27 attained around 3 extra magazines before its bolt broke. |
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Took us long enough. I would be interested in seeing if material changes could extend bolt life.
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Took us long enough. I would be interested in seeing if material changes could extend bolt life. View Quote Although the whole roller burnishing thing RDECOM showed off looked promising with it's guaranteed doubling of bolt life to exceed 20,000 rounds. |
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This is a bigger takeaway IMO in that article
Neller is considering replacing M4 carbines in infantry squads with IARs. In February, MARCORSYSCOM expressed interest in buying 11,000 weapons meeting the IAR's requirements. In the back of my mind I had always thought this was the endgame with the IAR. |
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This is a bigger takeaway IMO in that article Neller is considering replacing M4 carbines in infantry squads with IARs. In February, MARCORSYSCOM expressed interest in buying 11,000 weapons meeting the IAR's requirements. In the back of my mind I had always thought this was the endgame with the IAR. View Quote Talk about spending yourself into a hole, need a bolt at 9,000 rounds? Gonna cost you the same as 5 M4 bolts, same for every part on the weapon except maybe the barrel. |
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I approve. It’s a great round. http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn38/rccox/Guns/DE582236-05E1-49C1-9DC7-16C20B905BCF.jpg View Quote |
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This is a bigger takeaway IMO in that article Neller is considering replacing M4 carbines in infantry squads with IARs. In February, MARCORSYSCOM expressed interest in buying 11,000 weapons meeting the IAR's requirements. In the back of my mind I had always thought this was the endgame with the IAR. View Quote The issue is that current configoration of HK416 and M855A1 don't play well together, and HK apparently is fucking around with cost. So fuck HK, go LWRC M6a4 or something else that runs well with all ammo, is piston driven for auto and suppressed use, is accurate, reliable, and wont break the bank issuing them out only to 03xx in victor units. Give this to EVERY infantry Marine, issue M249 if mission calls for it only, same with M3A1 MAAW. |
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A "support" weapon fed from box mags is pants-on-head retarded to begin with.
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Doubtful it happens. The M27 costs 5x what the M4 does and breaks bolts at the same rate. One would have to be stupid to spend that much when replacement schedules will remain the same. Talk about spending yourself into a hole, need a bolt at 9,000 rounds? Gonna cost you the same as 5 M4 bolts, same for every part on the weapon except maybe the barrel. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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This is a bigger takeaway IMO in that article Neller is considering replacing M4 carbines in infantry squads with IARs. In February, MARCORSYSCOM expressed interest in buying 11,000 weapons meeting the IAR's requirements. In the back of my mind I had always thought this was the endgame with the IAR. Talk about spending yourself into a hole, need a bolt at 9,000 rounds? Gonna cost you the same as 5 M4 bolts, same for every part on the weapon except maybe the barrel. M27, sans optics and deployment kit, what are they paying? |
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A "support" weapon fed from box mags is pants-on-head retarded to begin with. View Quote |
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A "support" weapon fed from box mags is pants-on-head retarded to begin with. View Quote |
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Quoted: Current M4, what are they paying, sans optics? M27, sans optics and deployment kit, what are they paying? View Quote Then you have the issue of the M27 barrel having to go from France, to Germany, to the US as well as the cost of said barrel. We can't cheaply make the M27 barrel here because the blanks are sourced from one company on the other side of the globe. What the 416 offers over the M4A1 is a better barrel, and rail system that's it. It breaks every other part at nearly the same intervals thanks to numerous mods that the M4A1 doesn't have(like disconnector plates, firing pin safeties, etc) but costs 5x as much to maintain. I also believe the M4A1 is averaging closer to 1.5-2moa with M855A1. |
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Quoted: Would it shock you to learn that the German MG34 in the squad LMG role was designed to be with either a 70 rd top cover magazine (the entire feed tray assemble would need to be removed and replaced to use belts), or using a snail drum with belted ammo and ten less rounds than a Magpul 60 round drum holds but weighed twice as much? View Quote |
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I guess I'm old fashioned but I don't understand why they went away from the A4 with the ACOG. That was a fuckin winner...BOOM! Headshot!!
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They shouldn't load it so hot. I can hit 3k fps without breaking things in a 16" barrel.
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Appears that way to me as well, but I don't kick in doors or do anything remotely like that for a living. It would seem that you would lose a large portion of your suppressive fire ability to a squad in order to add another rifleman. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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A "support" weapon fed from box mags is pants-on-head retarded to begin with. Times have changed. Most of what we know about machine guns stems from the traditions of when they were created in the first place. Belt fed came about because in the late 19th century and early 20th century magazines sucked. Their springs sucked, their followers cucked, their design angles sucked, their lips bent, etc. not Maxim nor anyone else were designing individual magazines that were interchangeable and reliable, especially under full auto, less alone high capacity, which meant 20 rounds back then, so they instead went a different route. By adding a well made steel springs in the top cover pawls of the feed tray, the machine gun could reliable feed itself by pulling in some sort of cloth, metal, or disintegrating belt of ammo. Can we do magazines better now? Fuck yes. Even Magpul has reliable 60 round drum mags, AKs have reliable 75 round drum mags. Open bolt is great for full auto, sucks for accuracy (mass of entire bolt moving forward under spring tension upon trigger pull has a tendency to cause movement of sight picture), and is detrimental to close combat. Open bolt came about because early machine guns were designed to be fired continuously, indefinitely, an open bolt is the only way to prevent cook offs, out of battery detonations, and other heat related malfunctions. Yes, open bolt helps but is it necessary? Experience with the M27 has proven its not needed, that IAR can fire its entire standard issue with no heat related malfunctions. The HK416 is only open bolt, going to a LWRC or Colt means closed bolt while the weapon is in semi, and open bolt on auto, thereby giving the accuracy necessary for slow fire, with the cooling factor in auto fire. Also, let's talk reloading. How long does it take to reload a 60 rd Magul drum with another? Now compare that to reloading a 200 round box or a 100 round nutsack on a M249. The latter takes 3-4x time longer. It takes longer to perform immediate action, it takes much longer before its safe to perform remedial action. Let's talk training. A LMG is a machine. It has a shit load of parts and a very complicated cycle of operations that needs to be fully understood by the gunner for them to know how to clear it when it does jam, or to understand what might be wrong with it by noticing how its acting. In the Marine Corps and Army they are issuing LMGs to low ranking dudes who are not always adequately trained to use them, and what normally happens is that by the time they become very knowledgeable they end up getting promoted and being made team leaders, who are not machine gun AGs or TLs whose job it is to stand right next to a firing LMG and supervise its use. Often a rifle team leader isn't even going to be within 10 meters of the SAW gunner in combat, they can't babysit them to deal with whatever fuck ups that can occur the same way a MG team leader can unfuck his gun teams when the gun goes down. Meanwhile, every Soldier or Marine already knows how to use an AR15 style IAR, they already are trained on it, they know how to properly strip and maintain it (hopefully), they have the pouches for it, the mags that work with it (so the Squad support weapon can be fed by EVERYONE in the unit). Now couple the fact that the IAR doesn't just do automatic rifle duties. It also does designated marksman duties. While also being able to do basic rifleman duties (door kicking, trench clearing, etc). |
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Quoted: Open bolt came about because early machine guns were designed to be fired continuously, indefinitely, an open bolt is the only way to prevent cook offs, out of battery detonations, and other heat related malfunctions. Yes, open bolt helps but is it necessary? Experience with the M27 has proven its not needed, that IAR can fire its entire standard issue with no heat related malfunctions. The HK416 is only open bolt, going to a LWRC or Colt means closed bolt while the weapon is in semi, and open bolt on auto, thereby giving the accuracy necessary for slow fire, with the cooling factor in auto fire. View Quote Honestly the M249 is a crappy LMG to begin with. I'd rather see something like the KAC X-LMG compared to the IAR concept. I mean it's 5.56 and weighs nearly as much as a M240, while using the horrible upside down AK operating system. A LMG that weighs 10-11lbs and is actually designed well. |
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Did Mk 318 fall out of favor? I understood it to be an excellent round.
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But didn't they ditch all that crap and use the MG-42 which was FA only and had a higher rate of fire? I always enjoy your posts. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Would it shock you to learn that the German MG34 in the squad LMG role was designed to be with either a 70 rd top cover magazine (the entire feed tray assemble would need to be removed and replaced to use belts), or using a snail drum with belted ammo and ten less rounds than a Magpul 60 round drum holds but weighed twice as much? The greatest achievement of the high rate of fire was with reliability, the MG42 being delayed blowback operated meant that if the gun was dirty as hell, the ammo filthy, everything frost covered, its rate of fire would slow but the timing would still not get fucked up. So in perfect conditions they fired 1,200-1,500 rpm, but in cold, dirty conditions they'd fire 800-1,000 rpm, they still fired. In the same conditions, the MG34 simply would not fire. Another factor that worked well with the high rate of fire was the psychological factor that came from the sound of the gun firing, which sometimes would ground advancing infantry. Similar to the fear induced by the sound of tank engines approaching, the terror sound of incoming Nebelwerfer rockets, the MG42 did have a magnified suppressive role because of the sound of its rapid shots. Lastly, and this can't be emphasized enough, by the time the MG42 was being issued out in mass the Germans were largely relegated to defensive warfare. Any machine gun, even a Chauchet, would have been effective in those situations. Weight was often not a concern, movement of ammo was generally not a concern, they were often firing from prepared positions at enemy they could channel into kill zones with obstancles, knowing the ground in advance allowing them to target avenues of approach, etc. While the Germans had very serious problem having enough artillery and mortar rounds, and radios to guide them, they always seemed to be able to make enough small arms ammo and supply it to the front lines, so that also increased the effectiveness of their usage. |
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I guess I'm old fashioned but I don't understand why they went away from the A4 with the ACOG. That was a fuckin winner...BOOM! Headshot!! View Quote The barrel doesn't need to be 20" to kill, or even hit targets if you know the ballistics (thanks to the ACOG). And the stock being able to collapse greatly helps in tight cramped spaces, for adjusting length of pull depending on armor or clothing worn. Overall, shooting is easier and individual movement easier with a smaller weapon than a larger. |
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Closed bolt you mean? Honestly the M249 is a crappy LMG to begin with. I'd rather see something like the KAC X-LMG compared to the IAR concept. I mean it's 5.56 and weighs nearly as much as a M240, while using the horrible upside down AK operating system. A LMG that weighs 10-11lbs and is actually designed well. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Open bolt came about because early machine guns were designed to be fired continuously, indefinitely, an open bolt is the only way to prevent cook offs, out of battery detonations, and other heat related malfunctions. Yes, open bolt helps but is it necessary? Experience with the M27 has proven its not needed, that IAR can fire its entire standard issue with no heat related malfunctions. The HK416 is only open bolt, going to a LWRC or Colt means closed bolt while the weapon is in semi, and open bolt on auto, thereby giving the accuracy necessary for slow fire, with the cooling factor in auto fire. Honestly the M249 is a crappy LMG to begin with. I'd rather see something like the KAC X-LMG compared to the IAR concept. I mean it's 5.56 and weighs nearly as much as a M240, while using the horrible upside down AK operating system. A LMG that weighs 10-11lbs and is actually designed well. A new operating system is not needed... at all. It solves a problem that doesn't exist. If you want to use the AR-15 platform as an LMG, all it needs is a heavier barrel and a slightly upgraded gas tube (inconel). If you over-gas an AR-15 and use a heavy bolt... it is extraordinarily reliable even in adverse conditions. This is why most of the "piston" AR-15 variants are heavily over-gassed to attempt to sway reliability tests. Thats part of their retarded marketing schtick. Of course, this also breaks parts so it doesn't actually provide a net benefit under real testing. Same real world reliability with more broken parts. |
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Closed bolt you mean? Honestly the M249 is a crappy LMG to begin with. I'd rather see something like the KAC X-LMG compared to the IAR concept. I mean it's 5.56 and weighs nearly as much as a M240, while using the horrible upside down AK operating system. A LMG that weighs 10-11lbs and is actually designed well. View Quote There are still many scenarios where a belt fed issued to the squad level would come in handy. Jungle, precision fire just aint happening. Some MOUT situations. Defending patrol bases from massed attacks from Hadji staging in villages only meters away from the front gate after it gets obliterated by a VBIED, etc. However, for that role I'd take a KAC LMG, Ultimax, or something similar in a heartbeat over the M249. And I'd still probably not make it a permanent feature in a squad's MTOE, just place it in company arms rooms for "Issue as needed" conditions. Same for Carl Gustav, or even how we do Javelins when issued to non anti-armor sections. PL to SL: Your squad is pulling blocking position duty on the upcoming air assault. Expect heavy enemy contact. SL to TL: Have one of your dudes go draw the KAC LMG and the battle belt rig with ammo, I want your team working the SAW. Meanwhile everyone else pulls DM duties, because they have the weapon, optic, ammo, and training package to pull it off. |
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But didn't they ditch all that crap and use the MG-42 which was FA only and had a higher rate of fire? I always enjoy your posts. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Quoted: Would it shock you to learn that the German MG34 in the squad LMG role was designed to be with either a 70 rd top cover magazine (the entire feed tray assemble would need to be removed and replaced to use belts), or using a snail drum with belted ammo and ten less rounds than a Magpul 60 round drum holds but weighed twice as much? |
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I'm not fanboi of HK or piston guns, and I'm not an engineer. But I've read that when it comes to short barrel (I guess 14.5" qualifies), lots of full auto, and suppressor use, piston is the way to go.
We're going to be using these carbines for rifleman and DM work, but also IAR duty, they need to be able to function well on full auto, and the times appear that all suppressor, all the time is likely on the horizon, so we better start designing our weapons to work well in full auto while suppressed. Because if we don't, we're still stuck with a weapon that either wont work well suppressed (which then means reliability issues or tactical problems from going sans suppressor), and eventually we're just going to have to fix that problem anyway. Maybe a simple adjustable gas block on a normal DI gas system is enough. I don't know enough to answer it it, but however, adjustable gas regulator is something that NEEDS to be on the next service rifle. |
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Now couple the fact that the IAR doesn't just do automatic rifle duties. It also does designated marksman duties. While also being able to do basic rifleman duties (door kicking, trench clearing, etc). View Quote |
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I'm not fanboi of HK or piston guns, and I'm not an engineer. But I've read that when it comes to short barrel (I guess 14.5" qualifies), lots of full auto, and suppressor use, piston is the way to go. We're going to be using these carbines for rifleman and DM work, but also IAR duty, they need to be able to function well on full auto, and the times appear that all suppressor, all the time is likely on the horizon, so we better start designing our weapons to work well in full auto while suppressed. Because if we don't, we're still stuck with a weapon that either wont work well suppressed (which then means reliability issues or tactical problems from going sans suppressor), and eventually we're just going to have to fix that problem anyway. Maybe a simple adjustable gas block on a normal DI gas system is enough. I don't know enough to answer it it, but however, adjustable gas regulator is something that NEEDS to be on the next service rifle. View Quote |
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Why the blue hell would all copper bullets make an M27 wear out faster? Are they loading these overpressure?
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I question how well it will serve the DM role after it has been used in the AR role. Full auto fire has a tendency to degrade barrels. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Now couple the fact that the IAR doesn't just do automatic rifle duties. It also does designated marksman duties. While also being able to do basic rifleman duties (door kicking, trench clearing, etc). AFAIK DI tends to be inherently more accurate than piston due to the lack of off-bore reciprocating mass. |
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I question how well it will serve the DM role after it has been used in the AR role. Full auto fire has a tendency to degrade barrels. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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Now couple the fact that the IAR doesn't just do automatic rifle duties. It also does designated marksman duties. While also being able to do basic rifleman duties (door kicking, trench clearing, etc). That and a simple active fix is if anybody besides an armorer for testing purposes decides to dump an entire mag or drums on full auto, in training or combat, they get BN level Art 15/NJP and reduced by one rank. No questions, no excuse, its automatic. |
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Both adjustable gas blocks and more recently adjustable-gas bolts seem to be a better (and much lighter) option than a piston for accomplishing the same goal, but I'm not aware of any military testing on those. It seems like the logical answer but it's not as sexy as a new rifle and won't get some general a job at HK or whoever is building the next piston gun. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
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I'm not fanboi of HK or piston guns, and I'm not an engineer. But I've read that when it comes to short barrel (I guess 14.5" qualifies), lots of full auto, and suppressor use, piston is the way to go. We're going to be using these carbines for rifleman and DM work, but also IAR duty, they need to be able to function well on full auto, and the times appear that all suppressor, all the time is likely on the horizon, so we better start designing our weapons to work well in full auto while suppressed. Because if we don't, we're still stuck with a weapon that either wont work well suppressed (which then means reliability issues or tactical problems from going sans suppressor), and eventually we're just going to have to fix that problem anyway. Maybe a simple adjustable gas block on a normal DI gas system is enough. I don't know enough to answer it it, but however, adjustable gas regulator is something that NEEDS to be on the next service rifle. Again, I don't know more than what I've read on this, maybe this is just a simple engineering project. But my understanding was CAG specifically went with the HK416 because they were expecting to go short barreled (10.5-14.5), go full auto, and go suppressed. |
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Why the blue hell would all copper bullets make an M27 wear out faster? Are they loading these overpressure? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted:
Why the blue hell would all copper bullets make an M27 wear out faster? Are they loading these overpressure? SMEs, if I am wrong, correct me. Quoted:
Depending on the magazines the steel tip are hitting the barrel extension at a weird angle and gouging it. And overpressure is hurting bolts. |
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Thank god HK makes a non spec magazine well.
because, proprietary bullshit. |
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