[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Missing411 - Attempts to shed light on strange missing persons cases in national parks (Page 2 of 14)
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We had the murdered hiker here in Georgia a few years ago, but they caught the guy who did it. He even kept her dog as a pet after killing her. Apparently he was implicated in multiple other disappearances and murders all over the southeast, especially national/state parks. Reality is someone who keeps their mouth shut and has a job that takes them all over the US (or the means to do it otherwise) could be on a killing spree like we can't imagine, and never get caught. It's chilling to think about, even without adding any supernatural or cryptids to the argument. That's one of the theories, but then there are coincidences that are strange in a lot of these cases. Like weather moving in for days after the child goes missing. (serial killer can plan this) Or the body being found on the trail that had already been searched. (serial killer can't do that) What bugs me is the response from the NPS. Those are good people that I've never had a bad interaction with. Some say there are people who live in the Smokies, but they don't really talk about it or pursue it because these folks live so far back in the bush and don't ever make problems, but they off-the-record acknowledge they're there. Whole families. |
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I was thinking the same thing. Could have sworn I read a similar story here in one of the old "creepy things found in the woods" threads or one about the AT. Quoted:
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Weird have you posted that before here? Somewhere I have heard almost that exact same story or one very similar to that I was thinking the same thing. Could have sworn I read a similar story here in one of the old "creepy things found in the woods" threads or one about the AT. It's possible I wrote about it on a drunk night, who knows. I hadn't thought about it much though until I heard this Paulides dude talk. |
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On Reddit there's been a Forest Service Search & Rescue Officer sharing his weird stories in the same vein as the 411 guy. Weird shit like finding random staircases in the woods that go nowhere and he's been told not to ask or go up the staircases. There are 4 parts so far. Here's the first part. There's a link at the bottom for each next part. |
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I have a couple of stories in this vein. I was walking my dogs in the Fells near Boston, MA and I was coming up to a bridge when I noticed a couple of tall thin guys coming up behind me walking a little faster than I was. They went off a side trail after they saw that I noticed them. I then saw another similar guy on the far side of the bridge, the trail went through tall grass and had a bend so you couldn't see very far ahead. Then I saw that there was another trail that came back and the first two guys came down it towards me coming behind to cut me off. They were all staring at me hard. I walking two GSDs one who had been attack trained, I was carrying a Glock 19 and an NAA .22 revolver. I stared them down and kept walking, the single guy got out of my way, I guess they figured I would put up too much of a fight. In 2001 I went deer hunting near Lumberton, NC at a bear preserve with a few buddies. I picked a spot on the edge of a farm field where the deer had been passing through to hit a trail that ran down to a stream. I set up in a chair with a fallen tree in front of with my Encore muzzleloader on it. There was small heard of deer in the field but out of my range and it was getting dark but my buddies had the Suburban so I was just waiting. I heard a leaf crinkle behind me to the right, I thought "Damn there's one coming up behind me!" and grabbed the Encore and turned to look. The biggest cat I have ever seen out side a zoo crept out from behind a big tree and stopped 10-15 feet from me. I was thinking "I have one shot, I have one shot, I have one shot." As I get the Encore close to pointed at it, it ran into the brush on my left. I could hear it in the bushes padding though, I just kept the gun pointed in the direction and waited. After a few minutes my buddies drove down and I ran over there and said "There is a big damn cat in those bushes!" they figured I was drinking over there and never did see it. 
Did you soil yourself, I about did just reading that. Holy crap that would have freaked me out. |
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Quoted: Did you soil yourself, I about did just reading that. Holy crap that would have freaked me out. Quoted: Quoted: I have a couple of stories in this vein. I was walking my dogs in the Fells near Boston, MA and I was coming up to a bridge when I noticed a couple of tall thin guys coming up behind me walking a little faster than I was. They went off a side trail after they saw that I noticed them. I then saw another similar guy on the far side of the bridge, the trail went through tall grass and had a bend so you couldn't see very far ahead. Then I saw that there was another trail that came back and the first two guys came down it towards me coming behind to cut me off. They were all staring at me hard. I walking two GSDs one who had been attack trained, I was carrying a Glock 19 and an NAA .22 revolver. I stared them down and kept walking, the single guy got out of my way, I guess they figured I would put up too much of a fight. In 2001 I went deer hunting near Lumberton, NC at a bear preserve with a few buddies. I picked a spot on the edge of a farm field where the deer had been passing through to hit a trail that ran down to a stream. I set up in a chair with a fallen tree in front of with my Encore muzzleloader on it. There was small heard of deer in the field but out of my range and it was getting dark but my buddies had the Suburban so I was just waiting. I heard a leaf crinkle behind me to the right, I thought "Damn there's one coming up behind me!" and grabbed the Encore and turned to look. The biggest cat I have ever seen out side a zoo crept out from behind a big tree and stopped 10-15 feet from me. I was thinking "I have one shot, I have one shot, I have one shot." As I get the Encore close to pointed at it, it ran into the brush on my left. I could hear it in the bushes padding though, I just kept the gun pointed in the direction and waited. After a few minutes my buddies drove down and I ran over there and said "There is a big damn cat in those bushes!" they figured I was drinking over there and never did see it. Did you soil yourself, I about did just reading that. Holy crap that would have freaked me out. |
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On Reddit there's been a Forest Service Search & Rescue Officer sharing his weird stories in the same vein as the 411 guy. Weird shit like finding random staircases in the woods that go nowhere and he's been told not to ask or go up the staircases. There are 4 parts so far. Here's the first part. There's a link at the bottom for each next part. https://www.reddit.com/r/nosleep/comments/3iex1h/im_a_search_and_rescue_officer_for_the_us_forest/ Read the first one and it sounds like complete horseshit. |
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Anybody read or hear about this? This guy has compiled a bunch of books about missing persons cases in and around our national parks where the disappearances were of a high strangeness. The cases highlighted are strange, but have a lot of similarities. Lots of cases where a person will disappear, then after days of searching, the body will be found along a trail or path that had been travelled numerous times. Many cases happen just before a storm system moves in and hampers search efforts. Lots of cases where the body will be found at a much higher elevation, etc. The biggest part of the message is that the National Park Service doesn't keep records of missing persons who's cases remain unsolved. Explanations range from large cats to bigfoot to aliens, to serial killers. Almost all the cases refer to a person who was out in the parks alone. I'm not totally convinced about his claims or lack of claims, as there's always an air of charlatan that surrounds mysteries. Lots of information online. He's trying to make a documentary movie about it, and has successfully funded it through kickstarter campaign. Trailer below.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gtz6PYLU9I
I have my own weird experience in the Smokies that I look back on now and think that I was lucky to be very aware of my surroundings at the time. Now that I've read some of this stuff, makes me wonder. I don't know where he got that little mysterious tidbit??? I mean, it does feed the creepiness but come on. From personal experience, a stupid report is filed on just about every inconsequential thing that happens in this park. Especially Search and Rescue incidents. The Smokies gets to dip into regional or national accounts when the mission cost exceeds X dollars. No paperwork, no dollars. I do like the thread though! |
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On Reddit there's been a Forest Service Search & Rescue Officer sharing his weird stories in the same vein as the 411 guy. Weird shit like finding random staircases in the woods that go nowhere and he's been told not to ask or go up the staircases. There are 4 parts so far. Here's the first part. There's a link at the bottom for each next part. https://www.reddit.com/r/nosleep/comments/3iex1h/im_a_search_and_rescue_officer_for_the_us_forest/ Holy shit the story about the dude with no face made the hair on my neck stick up. Oh great and now I hear thunder. 
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Quoted: No, I was focused on getting that gun pointed at it. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a couple of stories in this vein. I was walking my dogs in the Fells near Boston, MA and I was coming up to a bridge when I noticed a couple of tall thin guys coming up behind me walking a little faster than I was. They went off a side trail after they saw that I noticed them. I then saw another similar guy on the far side of the bridge, the trail went through tall grass and had a bend so you couldn't see very far ahead. Then I saw that there was another trail that came back and the first two guys came down it towards me coming behind to cut me off. They were all staring at me hard. I walking two GSDs one who had been attack trained, I was carrying a Glock 19 and an NAA .22 revolver. I stared them down and kept walking, the single guy got out of my way, I guess they figured I would put up too much of a fight. In 2001 I went deer hunting near Lumberton, NC at a bear preserve with a few buddies. I picked a spot on the edge of a farm field where the deer had been passing through to hit a trail that ran down to a stream. I set up in a chair with a fallen tree in front of with my Encore muzzleloader on it. There was small heard of deer in the field but out of my range and it was getting dark but my buddies had the Suburban so I was just waiting. I heard a leaf crinkle behind me to the right, I thought "Damn there's one coming up behind me!" and grabbed the Encore and turned to look. The biggest cat I have ever seen out side a zoo crept out from behind a big tree and stopped 10-15 feet from me. I was thinking "I have one shot, I have one shot, I have one shot." As I get the Encore close to pointed at it, it ran into the brush on my left. I could hear it in the bushes padding though, I just kept the gun pointed in the direction and waited. After a few minutes my buddies drove down and I ran over there and said "There is a big damn cat in those bushes!" they figured I was drinking over there and never did see it. Did you soil yourself, I about did just reading that. Holy crap that would have freaked me out.  |
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Right before my trip to Alaska. Great. That's okay, though. I'll be in a bus full of people going through Denali. There's no way a whole bus could disappear, right? Right?! From everything I've heard of this guy's research, it's those who are out alone, or most of the time get separated from the group. So stay in the middle. 
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And, strictly speaking, the CT trail doesn't intersect the AT 
But people hiking the AT from Indian Gap do go missing regularly. I just send someone to the CT Trailhead or down the Road Prong trail if it's kids or the elderly. Hmm....I could've sworn I saw a sign that pointed to the AT when I hiked up there. ETA: You're right, it was the Rd Prong Trail. I still could've sworn I saw "To AT" on the sign. Now I wanna go back |
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Quoted: I'd say that it has more to do with rapey and murder than aliens. Suicides aren't uncommon in the parks, and I've encountered some... interesting... individuals when out in the woods. There is a reason I usually have a rifle with me, and it isn't the bears. Just last weekend I went camping. Little ways down from me was a whole campsite set up like somebody just walked away from it, to be back in an hour. They had been gone for about three weeks. (Limit in that area is 16 days, rangers had left a warning for him about 4 days before I arrived). Suicide? Wandered off and gotten injured or lost? Just some crazy dude? Who the fuck knows. |
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Hmm....I could've sworn I saw a sign that pointed to the AT when I hiked up there. ETA: You're right, it was the Rd Prong Trail. I still could've sworn I saw "To AT" on the sign. Now I wanna go back Quoted:
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And, strictly speaking, the CT trail doesn't intersect the AT
But people hiking the AT from Indian Gap do go missing regularly. I just send someone to the CT Trailhead or down the Road Prong trail if it's kids or the elderly. Hmm....I could've sworn I saw a sign that pointed to the AT when I hiked up there. ETA: You're right, it was the Rd Prong Trail. I still could've sworn I saw "To AT" on the sign. Now I wanna go back The signs here are crazy and get people screwed up all day long. You can reach the AT but it'll be a while. Don't worry about the sign, you had other things to worry about! The GF is out of town, inspired by this thread, I might watch Blair Witch Project. Just showed up on my Netflix. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: OP we need mspaint of artist rendition of dude in suit for putting up signs around the neighborhood. Looked a lot like this http://iv1.lisimg.com/image/7311298/600full-cillian-murphy.jpg ETA: Or this http://thumb7.shutterstock.com/display_pic_with_logo/2234105/210109039/stock-photo-man-in-a-suit-puts-medical-gloves-on-standing-in-front-of-a-forest-background-210109039.jpg Mspaint dude http://i.imgur.com/DWByY7k.jpg That MSPaint is giving me chills. |
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After the last thread on this guy, I went and ordered his books from his website, it was about $100 and got them all in a timely fashion. Read them through back to back. They are interesting, but I found most of the stories could have very mundane explanations. He never really comes out with any theory of his own, and he makes a bigger deal of the NPS not keeping a record of missing individuals than I think he needs to. In the later books he repeats a fair amount of the stories from his earlier books. He has some charts and graphs about missing individuals, but when you look at it over the context of 100 plus years, and across the country, it's not really a unusually large number of individuals. There are clusters of areas with large numbers of missing individuals, but is it a function of inhospitable terrain or something else. For example, he talks about large numbers of individuals with disabilities turning up missing, with implication that something is targeting them. I think it is more likely that individuals with disabilities would be more likely to have problems dealing with difficult terrain and inclement weather. The most interesting cases were where the individual (usually a child) disappears from inside a house or a yard.
I also read the Reddit stories, they are fictional . I worked for a Federal land management agency for 35 years, we did not, and do not have dedicated search and rescue positions. Whenever a person turns up missing it is turned over to the local law enforcement agency. I have participated in several searches over the years in my capacity as member of our local law enforcement, but the Feds don't have people or programs dedicated specifically for that. The most interesting search I was on was looking for a young lady who turned up missing. It took us three days to find her, after she had been reported as missing a week. We found her by smell. It seems that drugs and booze don't mix well even in the woods. She had the half empty whiskey bottle still clenched firmly in her hand when she was found. |
| Oh, my creepy story. A few years after I graduated high school, a girl from the area went partying/drinking with some friends out in the woods. They found her murdered a ways off the trail. No suspects, no prints, no evidence at all. Like, none. X-Files level no evidence. |
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After ... I also read the Reddit stories, they are fictional . I worked for a Federal land management agency for 35 years, we did not, and do not have dedicated search and rescue positions. Whenever a person turns up missing it is turned over to the local law enforcement agency. I have participated in several searches over the years in my capacity as member of our local law enforcement, but the Feds don't have people or programs dedicated specifically for that. The most interesting search I was on was looking for a young lady who turned up missing. It took us three days to find her, after she had been reported as missing a week. We found her by smell. It seems that drugs and booze don't mix well even in the woods. She had the half empty whiskey bottle still clenched firmly in her hand when she was found. BLM or USFS maybe. National Park Service, excluding the smallest parks and monuments, does have dedicated SAR response. |
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Quoted: On Reddit there's been a Forest Service Search & Rescue Officer sharing his weird stories in the same vein as the 411 guy. Weird shit like finding random staircases in the woods that go nowhere and he's been told not to ask or go up the staircases. There are 4 parts so far. Here's the first part. There's a link at the bottom for each next part. https://www.reddit.com/r/nosleep/comments/3iex1h/im_a_search_and_rescue_officer_for_the_us_forest/ Fuck! Why did I decide to read this now? Last story of the third entry. Idk why, but it made my skin crawl. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tell us about the strange experience you mentioned snip I had a slightly different experience. Went hiking with a buddy up Mount Olympus on the Tolcat Canyon trail in Salt Lake County in mid-July a few years ago. Anyone who has hiked that trail in the summer knows it gets blazing hot during the afternoon. My buddy twisted his knee on the way down and was going slow. Plus, he was getting thirsty, so I volunteered to go on ahead and grab the Gatorade bottles out of the cooler in the car while he took a rest in the shade of a draw. On my way down I passed two young 20-something women, both dressed in halter tops and shorts, heading up the trail. I said "Hi" and they said "Hi" back. They looked like they were sweating pretty good already even though they were only about 100 yards up the trail. As they went up the trail towards where my buddy was I got this feeling I needed to follow them, so I raced down to the car, got out the Gatorade, and rushed back up to where my buddy was. I was if they had disappeared; I never saw them again. My buddy was okay, and he said he didn't see them. Weird. |
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Ok, crazy thought of the night, would make a great conspiracy theory.
What if the government entered into an agreement years ago with aliens that they would provide them with a certain number of bodies to experiment with every so often. The aliens say it's hard going to population centers and taking them, and it would be too easy to catch the govt kidnapping people, so they set aside large swaths of land for the hunting of people. Thus the nps was born.
I swear I couldn't have thought it up better if I were high.
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I had a slightly different experience. Went hiking with a buddy up Mount Olympus on the Tolcat Canyon trail in Salt Lake County in mid-July a few years ago. Anyone who has hiked that trail in the summer knows it gets blazing hot during the afternoon. My buddy twisted his knee on the way down and was going slow. Plus, he was getting thirsty, so I volunteered to go on ahead and grab the Gatorade bottles out of the cooler in the car while he took a rest in the shade of a draw. On my way down I passed two young 20-something women, both dressed in halter tops and shorts, heading up the trail. I said "Hi" and they said "Hi" back. They looked like they were sweating pretty good already even though they were only about 100 yards up the trail. As they went up the trail towards where my buddy was I got this feeling I needed to follow them, so I raced down to the car, got out the Gatorade, and rushed back up to where my buddy was. I was if they had disappeared; I never saw them again. My buddy was okay, and he said he didn't see them. Weird. Quoted:
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Tell us about the strange experience you mentioned snip I had a slightly different experience. Went hiking with a buddy up Mount Olympus on the Tolcat Canyon trail in Salt Lake County in mid-July a few years ago. Anyone who has hiked that trail in the summer knows it gets blazing hot during the afternoon. My buddy twisted his knee on the way down and was going slow. Plus, he was getting thirsty, so I volunteered to go on ahead and grab the Gatorade bottles out of the cooler in the car while he took a rest in the shade of a draw. On my way down I passed two young 20-something women, both dressed in halter tops and shorts, heading up the trail. I said "Hi" and they said "Hi" back. They looked like they were sweating pretty good already even though they were only about 100 yards up the trail. As they went up the trail towards where my buddy was I got this feeling I needed to follow them, so I raced down to the car, got out the Gatorade, and rushed back up to where my buddy was. I was if they had disappeared; I never saw them again. My buddy was okay, and he said he didn't see them. Weird. Ghost sluts? Been there 
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Final autopsy report for a woman found dead in the Smokies this June: http://wate.com/2015/08/31/final-autopsy-death-of-north-carolina-woman-in-smokies-points-to-intentional-overdose-hypothermia/ Pretty creepy. |
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Quoted: Ghost sluts? Been there Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Tell us about the strange experience you mentioned snip I had a slightly different experience. Went hiking with a buddy up Mount Olympus on the Tolcat Canyon trail in Salt Lake County in mid-July a few years ago. Anyone who has hiked that trail in the summer knows it gets blazing hot during the afternoon. My buddy twisted his knee on the way down and was going slow. Plus, he was getting thirsty, so I volunteered to go on ahead and grab the Gatorade bottles out of the cooler in the car while he took a rest in the shade of a draw. On my way down I passed two young 20-something women, both dressed in halter tops and shorts, heading up the trail. I said "Hi" and they said "Hi" back. They looked like they were sweating pretty good already even though they were only about 100 yards up the trail. As they went up the trail towards where my buddy was I got this feeling I needed to follow them, so I raced down to the car, got out the Gatorade, and rushed back up to where my buddy was. I was if they had disappeared; I never saw them again. My buddy was okay, and he said he didn't see them. Weird. Ghost sluts? Been there The story is real, but I was being tongue in cheek. |
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Final autopsy report for a woman found dead in the Smokies this June: http://wate.com/2015/08/31/final-autopsy-death-of-north-carolina-woman-in-smokies-points-to-intentional-overdose-hypothermia/ Pretty creepy. That would be a sight to behold. |
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Quoted: BLM or USFS maybe. National Park Service, excluding the smallest parks and monuments, does have dedicated SAR response. Quoted: Quoted: After ... I also read the Reddit stories, they are fictional . I worked for a Federal land management agency for 35 years, we did not, and do not have dedicated search and rescue positions. Whenever a person turns up missing it is turned over to the local law enforcement agency. I have participated in several searches over the years in my capacity as member of our local law enforcement, but the Feds don't have people or programs dedicated specifically for that. The most interesting search I was on was looking for a young lady who turned up missing. It took us three days to find her, after she had been reported as missing a week. We found her by smell. It seems that drugs and booze don't mix well even in the woods. She had the half empty whiskey bottle still clenched firmly in her hand when she was found. BLM or USFS maybe. National Park Service, excluding the smallest parks and monuments, does have dedicated SAR response. |
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Weird have you posted that before here? Somewhere I have heard almost that exact same story or one very similar to that Quoted:
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Tell us about the strange experience you mentioned This. You have a tag. Went hiking by myself one day to The Chimney Tops in the Smokies. It's a short trail horizontally, but it's steep as hell. There's one straightaway that just goes up at a 60deg angle for what seems like forever. About halfway up the trail, it intersects the Appalachian Trail. Anyways, Went up to the top and enjoyed the view. On my way down I get past the AT and getting pretty close to the end, and all the sudden this dude appears walking behind me. Early 20's, jet black hair, and he's wearing business attire.  Dark grey slacks, darkish shirt, tie, and fancy black shoes. Reminds me a lot now of the scarecrow guy on Batman Begins. Just walking behind me about 20 yards keeping pace. Something really felt extremely off, other than his dress, and he freaked me out. WHO THE HELL goes hiking in business suits? Who even goes to Gatlinburg in a business suit? All I had on me to defend myself was a camera tripod, so I decided to start walking slower and let him pass me, thinking I'd be safer if he were in front of me than behind.
I step off the trail a little ways and act like I'm about to start taking pictures of some flowers. He gets about 5yds away from me and stops and looks at me. A couple seconds later, he asks in a very calm tone "how far do you think we are from the parking lot?" He wasn't sweating despite his clothes and the hot spring day. I was about to fight right there, but said "about half a mile." He said, "which direction?" I looked at him like and pointed DOWN. Then, like he was snapped out of a daze, he says "thanks" and keeps walking.
I waited about 3min (which was probably a mistake, should've kept him in sight) and proceeded down the trail. Once I got to the pull-off/parking lot, I didn't see him anywhere. In fact, that day, there was nobody else on the trail, except for a couple guys I saw on the top of the chimneys hours before. This |
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From the Sad But Not Spooky Files. A couple of years ago, a young woman named Maureen Kelly walked away from a campground in Skamania County here in WA., in the Gifford Pinchot National Forest. She wanted to go on a 'spiritual quest', and left the campground around 5:00 pm wearing only a fanny pack...apparently, naked is more spiritual, who'dathunkit.
They tracked her across a ravine, then lost the track...no further trace of her has been found. Nothing. Nada. Zip. However, I know just how dangerous the back woods of Western Washington really are, just how steep and slick and treacherous the ground can be, how astoundingly thick the undergrowth is. I love the mountains and forests of Washington, don't get me wrong...but I know, I know the mountains don't love me back. At best, they are utterly indifferent to me, at worst actively hostile and trying very hard to kill me. A lesson this poor girl learned the hardest way, I'm afraid.
This seems to happen a lot here in WA. People who have no idea what they are doing go out in the woods with no supplies and get into trouble. They think that the outdoors is like a Disney movie and find out too late that Mother Nature can be a real bitch and that a lot of her lessons are pass/fail. |
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You posted it before.... 5th result by searching "your name, AR15.com, woods suit"
Posted 12/05/2012, LINK |
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I was thinking the same thing. Could have sworn I read a similar story here in one of the old "creepy things found in the woods" threads or one about the AT. Quoted:
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Weird have you posted that before here? Somewhere I have heard almost that exact same story or one very similar to that I was thinking the same thing. Could have sworn I read a similar story here in one of the old "creepy things found in the woods" threads or one about the AT. Me too, was thinking dejavu when I read the story. OP, the fact that you were 1/2 mile from the parking lot may have saved your life....maybe the guy in the suit didn't want to carry your whole corpse for a full 1/2 mile, before he could dismember you. Obviously his cutting implements and saws were back in the parking lot, or somewhere else anyways.
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Quoted: There are stories of people in the middle of nowhere in suits and dress cloths from all over. In AZ there have been a number of sightings and as the OP sighting they aren't sweating when its hot out and they give you a sketchy feeling and either don't say much or anything at all. Sounds like me. Being a boss sucks, gotta look "professional" outdoors in 110 degree weather. |
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My parents Volunteer at parks in the winter. Mostly small state parks and almost every year they have had people commit suicide at them. One time while on a hike they found a note in a mountain dew bottle. I can see there being shenanigans here but i bet a bunch of them are people walking off into the woods to kill themselves Where are the bodies then? |
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Quoted: Where are the bodies then? Quoted: Quoted: My parents Volunteer at parks in the winter. Mostly small state parks and almost every year they have had people commit suicide at them. One time while on a hike they found a note in a mountain dew bottle. I can see there being shenanigans here but i bet a bunch of them are people walking off into the woods to kill themselves Where are the bodies then? Yotes get em. |
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Quoted: Where are the bodies then? Quoted: Quoted: My parents Volunteer at parks in the winter. Mostly small state parks and almost every year they have had people commit suicide at them. One time while on a hike they found a note in a mountain dew bottle. I can see there being shenanigans here but i bet a bunch of them are people walking off into the woods to kill themselves Where are the bodies then? I will have to call and ask them about the details it was a few years ago and my mom did not seem like she really wanted to talk about it |