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Posted: 11/5/2019 9:16:43 AM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I have no idea since my question above was a hypothetical. How much would it cost to manufacture one 14.5 inch AR 15 barrel out of Hastelloy and how much to sell it for? You may be able to get it into the 4 digit numbers by having an existing barrel manufacturer do it, but maybe not- they will be risking a lot of very expensive tooling at each stage. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 10:35:08 AM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don’t know what industry SryOfcr is in, but it sounds like he’s in general manufacturing, not a company that’s already making barrels. With the dedicated tooling requirements for barrel making, I’d expect the first barrel to be in the ‘new car’ price range at the least. You may be able to get it into the 4 digit numbers by having an existing barrel manufacturer do it, but maybe not- they will be risking a lot of very expensive tooling at each stage. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted: I have no idea since my question above was a hypothetical. How much would it cost to manufacture one 14.5 inch AR 15 barrel out of Hastelloy and how much to sell it for? You may be able to get it into the 4 digit numbers by having an existing barrel manufacturer do it, but maybe not- they will be risking a lot of very expensive tooling at each stage. The M60 barrel was made with a stellite liner, and cost about $2400 apiece back in the 1990s (around $3600 in today's $$$). The M240 barrel is a conventional chrome plated, monobloc, steel barrel, and cost about $600-$700 apiece today. Do you think you are going to get more than six times the life? |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 10:35:51 AM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think what the military should do is right before they release a new gun to the soldiers is they should send it to Battlefield Las Vegas and let the customers shoot the heck out of it to see how durable it is, use gun ranges with high round counts as a gauge and point of reference. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 10:37:16 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
What's the best way to get the AR 15 up to a machine gun status and go toe to toe with a squad automatic? mags need to be changed, even beta mags, and the barrel will need to be constantly cooled down or changed |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 11:05:25 AM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the best way to get the AR 15 up to a machine gun status and go toe to toe with a squad automatic? Quote HistoryQuoted: What's the best way to get the AR 15 up to a machine gun status and go toe to toe with a squad automatic? Quoted:
I don’t know what industry SryOfcr is in, but it sounds like he’s in general manufacturing, not a company that’s already making barrels. With the dedicated tooling requirements for barrel making, I’d expect the first barrel to be in the ‘new car’ price range at the least. You may be able to get it into the 4 digit numbers by having an existing barrel manufacturer do it, but maybe not- they will be risking a lot of very expensive tooling at each stage. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 11:16:08 AM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Barrel making is general manufacturing. There's no black magic involved. We'll make whatever you want if you pay for it. If there's a capability that we don't have in house, I have an approved vendor that does and if I don't then I'll find one and qualify them to do it. The problem is, most people are full of shit and won't cough up the cash to actually get it done. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 12:29:51 PM EDT
[#7]
We (my old company) made gas turbine combustors from hastalloy - so we bent sheets and welded/machined the material. Nothing like building a barrel. Cost seems to be the main issue, just not cost effective even if you can fire 100k rounds.
US Army and USMC already use Inconel for mortar tubes in the latest version of the M224 (60mm). I've heard they have done 81 mm tubes as well - all for weight, not sustained fire or longevity. The Legacy Mortar Weapon System M224 and newer 60mm M224A1 Lightweight Mortar System are the two 60 mm mortar classifications. The M224A1 is twenty one (21%) lighter in weight while at the same time maintaining the same range, rates of fire and barrel life as the existing M224 mortar weapon system. The M224A1 uses a cannon tube made from Inconel. The metal alloy Inconel 718 Unified Numbering System (UNS) N07718 is a nickel chromium material with superior characteristics compared to steel. The use of Inconel in mortar weapon systems was studied back in 1972 by Battelle Columbus Laboratories, Columbus, OH. They won Government contract DAAF07-72-R-0082 to do this research for Benet Weapons Laboratory at Watervliet Arsenal, NY. Inconel as well as other nickel alloys are used by the Defense Department due their heat and corrosion resistances and can be found in items such as Inconel fasteners and Inconel aircraft parts. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 12:42:00 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Barrel making is general manufacturing. There's no black magic involved. We'll make whatever you want if you pay for it. If there's a capability that we don't have in house, I have an approved vendor that does and if I don't then I'll find one and qualify them to do it. The problem is, most people are full of shit and won't cough up the cash to actually get it done. Either way, it will be too expensive to justify. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 1:15:19 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You missed the point. If the OP orders a barrel blank from Kreiger and orders an identical one from me, he’s going to get two very different prices. We both cut steel for a living, but I don’t have a rifling machine. Either I’m going to spend WAY more time making it or subbing it out locally, or I’m going to send it to Kreiger and add my markup to it. Either way, it will be too expensive to justify. Quote HistoryQuoted: You missed the point. If the OP orders a barrel blank from Kreiger and orders an identical one from me, he’s going to get two very different prices. We both cut steel for a living, but I don’t have a rifling machine. Either I’m going to spend WAY more time making it or subbing it out locally, or I’m going to send it to Kreiger and add my markup to it. Either way, it will be too expensive to justify. Quoted:People shouldn't try to "make things better" without understanding how to match materials science and manufacturing processes with the intended application. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 2:24:28 PM EDT
[#10]
Simple "heat resistance", is not the same as resistant to an incident flame and flowing gas, most likely not be the property that determines barrel life.
For example, HP-9-4-20 is an abrasion resistant steel invented by Republic Steel in the late 50's for use on grader and dozer blades. A refined version is used now for the cases of penetrator weapons. This steel has very good fracture toughness when heat treated to the 190 ksi to 210 ksi condition, and other properties not particularly applicable to a gun barrel, although its weldability might be attractive in some configurations. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 2:36:55 PM EDT
[#11]
So guns aren't a top priority for expensive research and development and giving our soldiers the best? I think the research and development that went into the F-22 Raptor should also go into the firearms and body armor we give our soldiers on the front lines. Time for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, BAE Systems and members of congress to step up the plate for R&D for soldiers too.
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Posted: 11/5/2019 3:16:16 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So guns aren't a top priority for expensive research and development and giving our soldiers the best? I think the research and development that went into the F-22 Raptor should also go into the firearms and body armor we give our soldiers on the front lines. Time for Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, BAE Systems and members of congress to step up the plate for R&D for soldiers too. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 4:33:25 PM EDT
[#13]
Are any of you familiar with A20X aluminum and also the supposed "super aluminum" that Kobe Steel created in Japan?
http://www.aeromet.co.uk/a20x https://www.machinedesign.com/news/worlds-strongest-aluminum-alloy Are there any aluminum alloys that exist that are as strong and heat resistant as Hastelloy and Inconel ? "Machining Heat Resistant Super Alloys at High Speeds" Cutting speeds soar on tough-to-machine materials with these new tools from NTK Cutting Tools... http://www.fabricatingandmetalworking.com/2017/01/machining-heat-resistant-super-alloys-high-speeds/ |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 6:58:52 PM EDT
[#14]
No. LOL
A20X ranges from no better than annealed 6061 to heat treated 2024 ultimate strength at room temperature. It's intended for castings and additive manufacturing. I wouldn't put much stock into the advertising brochure at the link, the properties listed are "typical" and will decrease significantly with statistical analysis so they are usable in critical applications, besides a high degree of anisotropy. The Kobe alloy is expensive pie in the sky usable for very small parts that justify the cost of building with spray. Also unproven, despite the advertising. There is a degree of basic chemistry that can't be defeated. "High Temp" aluminum alloy contains steel, enough to raise the density about 10%. I have used in in a demonstration part on the Harrier, but it's a long way from the capacity of steel to work at high temperatures. I don't think that alloy is used in anything now, it wasn't needed in the part we made, but that one was a light year less critical than a wheel if it failed. I think a copy of Machinery's Handbook and a year of reading would do you more good than anything else right now. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 7:04:32 PM EDT
[#15]
•Widely available
•Relatively inexpensive •Easily machined •Superior in strength •Superior in toughness •High hardness •Excellent heat and wear resistance •Resistant to shock There's your goal OP. You will not find it all in an exotic alloy. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 7:45:41 PM EDT
[#16]
Different part of the gun, but could a magnesium alloy be used for the receiver of guns in the future to replace aluminum?
"Researchers from UCLA have created a new kind of metal composite made from magnesium infused with silicon carbide nanoparticles, and it’s both lightweight and super-strong." https://gizmodo.com/new-magnesium-composite-has-record-breaking-strength-to-1749578336 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16445?utm_source=commission_junction&utm_medium=affiliate |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 8:08:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Different part of the gun, but could a magnesium alloy be used for the receiver of guns in the future to replace aluminum? "Researchers from UCLA have created a new kind of metal composite made from magnesium infused with silicon carbide nanoparticles, and it’s both lightweight and super-strong." https://gizmodo.com/new-magnesium-composite-has-record-breaking-strength-to-1749578336 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16445?utm_source=commission_junction&utm_medium=affiliate |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 8:19:47 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There are magnesium and lithium alloy receivers/hanguards available now. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 8:29:26 PM EDT
[#19]
You seem to be randomly selecting parts on the AR and then trying to find the most exotic material you can to replace it... because... why?
In order to "improve" something, you first have to identify a problem that needs to be solved. Just randomly saying, "Hey, let's replace this already existing material that does the job with *insert random exotic material*" doesn't make any sense. What is the specific problem you think needs to be solved? |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 8:38:01 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You seem to be randomly selecting parts on the AR and then trying to find the most exotic material you can to replace it... because... why? In order to "improve" something, you first have to identify a problem that needs to be solved. Just randomly saying, "Hey, let's replace this already existing material that does the job with *insert random exotic material*" doesn't make any sense. What is the specific problem you think needs to be solved? The nerd in me however loves these discussions and learning about what the future may hold. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 8:47:27 PM EDT
[#21]
I used to work in the research department of Haynes International, which is the company that owns the HASTELLOY trademark.
First thing to know is that Hastelloy is a brand name, it doesn't connotate any particular alloy composition, other than all the alloys sold under that name are nickel based. There have been at least dozen Hastelloy alloy compositions sold. Hastelloy X is rather an old one, the patents are long expired and it has become genericized on the market. The same goes for INCONEL, which is a trademark of the Special Metals Corporation. There are lots of different Inconel alloy compositions on the market. If you are going to ask questions like "which is better, Hastelloy or Inconel", you need to specify which ones. Hastelloy C-276 will blow Inconel 600 out of the water in a hot, aqueous acid application, but would likely suffer in comparison to Inconel 686. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 9:48:04 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Different part of the gun, but could a magnesium alloy be used for the receiver of guns in the future to replace aluminum? "Researchers from UCLA have created a new kind of metal composite made from magnesium infused with silicon carbide nanoparticles, and it’s both lightweight and super-strong." https://gizmodo.com/new-magnesium-composite-has-record-breaking-strength-to-1749578336 https://www.nature.com/articles/nature16445?utm_source=commission_junction&utm_medium=affiliate Particle composites in a metallic matrix are another product that don't step up to the hype. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 9:52:09 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Different part of the gun, but could a magnesium alloy be used for the receiver of guns in the future to replace aluminum? 
"Ultra-light proprietary magnesium alloy by Fostech Arms". You have alot of "what ifs" guy. Take a minute and do some reading in other areas, this shit has been hashed/rehashed for 40+ years. |
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Posted: 11/5/2019 11:22:38 PM EDT
[#24]
I found this, a 1911 made out of magnesium ZK60A-T5...
Quote: "Practically speaking, this means an AR rifle weighing 4.5 pounds."... https://americancopmagazine.com/ultimate-arms-and-the-magnesium-revolution/ "Rick began working on a magnesium-based gun back in 2014. But after many disappointing failures, Rick finally pulled it off with an alloy blend using zirconium, which makes the magnesium noncorrosive. The official designation of this now-patent-pending material is ZK60A-T5". I mention this because I believe you’ll be seeing it in the materials lists of other firearms in the future. In fact, the last time I visited with Rick, he was in the process of making a .50-caliber barrel from this magnesium-zirconium blend."... https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2019/07/ultimate-arms-magna-t5/ Ultimate Arms Ultra-Lightweight M4-AR Air Lite Black Widow weighs around 5 pounds... http://uaarms.com/m4-ar-air-lite-black-widow-rifle/#.XcI_2TNKhPY Are any of you familiar with the Ultimate Arms 1911 made out of magnesium ZK60A-T5? Also, just to add, Formula 1 wheels are made out of AZ70 and AZ80 magnesium. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 12:03:51 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I found this, a 1911 made out of magnesium ZK60A-T5... Quote: "Practically speaking, this means an AR rifle weighing 4.5 pounds."... https://americancopmagazine.com/ultimate-arms-and-the-magnesium-revolution/ "Rick began working on a magnesium-based gun back in 2014. But after many disappointing failures, Rick finally pulled it off with an alloy blend using zirconium, which makes the magnesium noncorrosive. The official designation of this now-patent-pending material is ZK60A-T5". I mention this because I believe you’ll be seeing it in the materials lists of other firearms in the future. In fact, the last time I visited with Rick, he was in the process of making a .50-caliber barrel from this magnesium-zirconium blend."... https://www.personaldefenseworld.com/2019/07/ultimate-arms-magna-t5/ Ultimate Arms Ultra-Lightweight M4-AR Air Lite Black Widow weighs around 5 pounds... http://uaarms.com/m4-ar-air-lite-black-widow-rifle/#.XcI_2TNKhPY Are any of you familiar with the Ultimate Arms 1911 made out of magnesium ZK60A-T5? Also, just to add, Formula 1 wheels are made out of AZ70 and AZ80 magnesium. I want a 1911 or AR15 made from the wreckage of the Roswell crash. Or any of the other craft housed at Groom Lake S2 |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 12:31:55 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Hastelloy C-276 will blow Inconel 600 out of the water in a hot, aqueous acid application, but would likely suffer in comparison to Inconel 686. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 2:34:47 AM EDT
[#27]
625 was originally conceived as a heat resistant alloy but has found wide application in corrosive aqueous environments. C-276 and 686 were always intended for aqueous corrosion resistance. They have much higher molybdenum contents which tends to improve pitting resistance and performance in non-oxidizing acids, and in those environments I would expect the latter two alloys to perform better. Oxidizing acids tend to be governed by the presence of chromium and in that regard they are all about the same.
Back to the question at hand, all of these materials are purely austenitic, solid-solution alloys. As such they are not particularly hard and in rifle barrel use would probably fail due to abrasive wear. If I was looking at trying something exotic for a barrel I would look at some of the high-strength, gamma-double-prime hardened alloys that came out after I left the company, such as the Haynes 282. But it's hard to imagine any of them outperforming Stellite. In terms of cost, a volume buyer of a commodity alloy like Inconel 625 might be able to get it under $15 per pound. A proprietary nickel alloy still under patent but with little or no cobalt might go up to $40 per pound. These prices are heavily tied to the market rates for nickel which is much more volatile that iron. Cobalt alloys are usually more expensive still, I've seen them close to $70 per pound, and raw cobalt swings in market price like crazy. For comparison, chrome-moly steel bar is typically something like $1.50 per pound. They are all hard to machine, and achieving precise tolerances and good surface finish is tough. They actually forge pretty well, if your machinery has enough power to do the job. Trying to cold hammer forge a nickel alloy barrel might actually produce decent results. Button rifling on the other hand would probably be a recipe for disaster. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 9:21:16 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:But it's hard to imagine any of them outperforming Stellite. Some Stellite alloys are less useful as liners that others. I believe current liners are made from Stellite 21. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 10:40:27 AM EDT
[#29]
Have we settled on how to make the world's most expensive AR with little to no tangible benefit to the user yet?
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Posted: 11/6/2019 11:39:22 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have we settled on how to make the world's most expensive AR with little to no tangible benefit to the user yet? |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 11:59:07 AM EDT
[#31]
Looking at Kennametal's website, the Stellite family of alloys seems interesting, what caught my eye was Tribaloy alloy. Any of you familiar with it?
"Tribaloy™ alloys, with either nickel or cobalt base, were developed for applications in which extreme wear is combined with high temperatures and corrosive media. Their high molybdenum content accounts for the excellent dry-running properties of Tribaloy™ alloys and makes them very suitable for use in adhesive (metal-tometal) wear situations. Tribaloy™ alloys can be used up to 800–1000° C (1472–1832° F)." https://www.kennametal.com/content/dam/kennametal/kennametal/common/Resources/Catalogs-Literature/Stellite/B-18-05723_KMT_Stellite_Alloys_Brochure_Direct_update_LR.pdf |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 12:23:36 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You need to relax. Is this a silly exercise in feasibility? Certainly. But there's no harm in having some discussion on the topic because one day it will be relevant. I enjoy having people chime in who have knowledge on the topics where I can learn something versus somebody just saying "No. This is a waste of time." Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have we settled on how to make the world's most expensive AR with little to no tangible benefit to the user yet? |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 12:37:09 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And around and around we go. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 1:30:40 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have we settled on how to make the world's most expensive AR with little to no tangible benefit to the user yet? |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:06:09 PM EDT
[#35]
Stellite is a trademarked name of Deloro Stellite Company supplying Stellite alloys like Stellite3, Stellite 6, Stellite 12 and Stellite 21. Deloro Stellite Company also supplies other products like casting, machinery, welding, coating, knives and many others...
Engineering Support - "Whatever your engineering challenge is, we have the experience and expertise to solve it." https://www.deloro.com/ Looks like I found my guys. 
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:22:18 PM EDT
[#36]
Back up.
First, write down the functions of a gun barrel. First a smooth bore, then a rifled bore. Then, write down the characteristics a gun barrel must possess. Along side each characteristic write down the minimum acceptable performance, the "dream" maximum performance goal. After that, add the new characteristics you want to add, along with the performance goals. After that, examine each performance metric and define how it can be met; that will establish a list of candidate materials, or processes, or materials plus processes. Include the cost of each candidate. After making this huge matrix of information, strike out the impossible. Stack each metric against current common practice, then make an honest evaluation of the improvement over state of the art, and its cost. Shortly after that whether to ask the bank for money will be clear. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:27:34 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Stellite is a trademarked name of Deloro Stellite Company supplying Stellite alloys like Stellite3, Stellite 6, Stellite 12 and Stellite 21. Deloro Stellite Company also supplies other products like casting, machinery, welding, coating, knives and many others... Engineering Support - "Whatever your engineering challenge is, we have the experience and expertise to solve it." https://www.deloro.com/ Looks like I found my guys. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:30:58 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back up. First, write down the functions of a gun barrel. First a smooth bore, then a rifled bore. Then, write down the characteristics a gun barrel must possess. Along side each characteristic write down the minimum acceptable performance, the "dream" maximum performance goal. After that, examine each performance metric and define how it can be met; that will establish a list of candidate materials, or processes, or materials plus processes. Include the cost of each candidate. After making this huge matrix of information, strike out the impossible. Stack each metric against current common practice, then make an honest evaluation of the improvement over state of the art, and its cost. Shortly after that whether to ask the bank for money will be clear. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:35:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know, a metallic hydrogen receiver set would be really, really light . . . Quote HistoryQuoted:
You know, a metallic hydrogen receiver set would be really, really light . . . 
Quoted:
Looks like I found my guys. My advice? Join an engineering or metallurgy group on LinkedIn or something and ask your questions there. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:37:33 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In for your quoted pricing per sample. https://www.kennametal.com/en/services/cost-per-part-program.html Rapid Response Centers... https://www.kennametal.com/en/services/rapid-response-center.html |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:40:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Back up. First, write down the functions of a gun barrel. First a smooth bore, then a rifled bore. Then, write down the characteristics a gun barrel must possess. Along side each characteristic write down the minimum acceptable performance, the "dream" maximum performance goal. After that, add the new characteristics you want to add, along with the performance goals. After that, examine each performance metric and define how it can be met; that will establish a list of candidate materials, or processes, or materials plus processes. Include the cost of each candidate. After making this huge matrix of information, strike out the impossible. Stack each metric against current common practice, then make an honest evaluation of the improvement over state of the art, and its cost. Shortly after that whether to ask the bank for money will be clear. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:41:24 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why do I need to do all that for? That's what engineering companies like Deloro and Kennametal Inc are there for. They're the specialists who specialize in that. I'll let them figure it out. You're not jealous are you? See, you thought I was going to be dependent on you. Don't make the same mistakes as Colt, don't let other companies go ahead like LMT, KAC, POF. You can't rest on your laurels. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:42:03 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why do I need to do all that for? That's what engineering companies like Deloro and Kennametal Inc are there for. They're the specialists who specialize in that. I'll let them figure it out. You're not jealous are you? See, you thought I was going to be dependent on you. Don't make the same mistakes as Colt, don't let other companies go ahead like LMT, KAC, POF. You can't rest on your laurels. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Back up. First, write down the functions of a gun barrel. First a smooth bore, then a rifled bore. Then, write down the characteristics a gun barrel must possess. Along side each characteristic write down the minimum acceptable performance, the "dream" maximum performance goal. After that, examine each performance metric and define how it can be met; that will establish a list of candidate materials, or processes, or materials plus processes. Include the cost of each candidate. After making this huge matrix of information, strike out the impossible. Stack each metric against current common practice, then make an honest evaluation of the improvement over state of the art, and its cost. Shortly after that whether to ask the bank for money will be clear. Quoted: Cost Per Part Program... https://www.kennametal.com/en/services/cost-per-part-program.html Rapid Response Centers... https://www.kennametal.com/en/services/rapid-response-center.html |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:44:12 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why do I need to do all that for? That's what engineering companies like Deloro and Kennametal Inc are there for. They're the specialists who specialize in that. I'll let them figure it out. You're not jealous are you? See, you thought I was going to be dependent on you. Don't make the same mistakes as Colt, don't let other companies go ahead like LMT, KAC, POF. You can't rest on your laurels. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Back up. First, write down the functions of a gun barrel. First a smooth bore, then a rifled bore. Then, write down the characteristics a gun barrel must possess. Along side each characteristic write down the minimum acceptable performance, the "dream" maximum performance goal. After that, examine each performance metric and define how it can be met; that will establish a list of candidate materials, or processes, or materials plus processes. Include the cost of each candidate. After making this huge matrix of information, strike out the impossible. Stack each metric against current common practice, then make an honest evaluation of the improvement over state of the art, and its cost. Shortly after that whether to ask the bank for money will be clear. My advice is free when accepted with grace. $300 per hour when not. Also, you are fired. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:49:26 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Cost Per Part Program... https://www.kennametal.com/en/services/cost-per-part-program.html |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:50:46 PM EDT
[#46]
I wish I got in on the 17-4 barrels noveske did a while back.
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Posted: 11/6/2019 3:55:30 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You are the customer, and you don't understand the product you want. Not in any way. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 4:11:09 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I wish I got in on the 17-4 barrels noveske did a while back. 
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Posted: 11/6/2019 5:29:04 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I advise against contacting engineering companies to bounce your ideas off of. Someone will be getting paid to respond to you and take time and attention away from actual customers. I will advise the OP though that he needs to spend some time thinking about the actual failure mechanisms that he is proposing to thwart. Most of the alloys advertised as temperature resistant are designed to resist the metallurgical and corrosion reactions that cause deterioration after thousands of hours of sustained temperatures over 800°C. Guns get moderately hot, but only for brief periods usually measured in minutes, and most of the failure mechansisms commercial alloys are designed around won't apply. |
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Posted: 11/6/2019 5:54:36 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Inconel is exceptional for use in high pressure, high temp (absolute temp and temp delta) applications...but it's pricey and a massive pain to work with. For a product that small in diameter and short in length, it is an affordable, practical approach to keeping turbos that spin well over 100,000 rpm in very high temperatures operating for many years. It would not be practical for barrel making because of its work-hardening tendencies during machining and its expense. Its cost-to-benefit ratio for use in small arms barrels would not be very attractive. |
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