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Posted: 3/26/2020 10:31:11 PM EDT
[#1]
I was literally just thinking about this..
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Posted: 3/26/2020 10:31:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Ouch. That is pretty damming. Lawsuit count down...
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Posted: 3/26/2020 10:32:58 PM EDT
[#3]
The preliminary report doesn’t say much.
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Posted: 3/26/2020 10:49:49 PM EDT
[#4]
Damn !
If I'm reading this right, that aircraft never should have flown, let alone take paying passengers on a flight . DAMN !!! |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:00:46 PM EDT
[#5]
Flying 70+ year old aircraft on a relatively shoestring budget was never going to end well. I'm one of the guys that loves the aircraft and loves to see them flying instead of strung up in a museum somewhere, but they are still machines that will kill you in seconds if you get complacent.
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:03:31 PM EDT
[#6]
I tried to tell GD and was villified for it. No way I was going to take a ride after getting a close look.
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:06:50 PM EDT
[#7]
Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4.
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:09:13 PM EDT
[#8]
Sad
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:10:56 PM EDT
[#9]
The essence of this report is that it rules out nothing and it draws no conclusions 
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:11:48 PM EDT
[#10]
Dick Blumenthal is such a worthless piece of shit. I hope he catches the wuhan and dies. He literally fucks up every issue he deals with.
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:14:40 PM EDT
[#11]
“Collings’ maintenance director was Ernest McCauley, 75, who was the chief pilot the day of the crash.”
It’s a shame that that clown had to kill passengers rather than just himself |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:15:37 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. Money. Always about money. If you have possession of such an aircraft no matter the usage, you need to be by the book period. Money can be no issue. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:16:18 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Criminally negligent is what they were. I observed the people "working" on the aircraft for the hours I was at the show. They didn't do a damn thing. Frankly speaking, they looked like they didn't give a shit. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:16:19 PM EDT
[#14]
The chief maintenance inspector was the pilot? Seriously? How dumb can they be? Zero oversight.
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:18:53 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. 838 hours on #4 since its last overhaul, is that a lot of time? They’re expensive enough that if operating hours, oil analysis, and any inspections performed showed it to be in good condition then I wouldn’t replace it either. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:19:29 PM EDT
[#16]
Sad that the old girl was lost. Another one was lost a few years ago as well. It might be time to retire the old birds so not all of them are destroyed. It seems too risky to keep flying them
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:21:11 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 838 hours on #4 since its last overhaul, is that a lot of time? They’re expensive enough that if operating hours, oil analysis, and any inspections performed showed it to be in good condition then I wouldn’t replace it either. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. 838 hours on #4 since its last overhaul, is that a lot of time? They’re expensive enough that if operating hours, oil analysis, and any inspections performed showed it to be in good condition then I wouldn’t replace it either. You do it regardless. What experience do you have flying and working on aircraft? |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:21:57 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad that the old girl was lost. Another one was lost a few years ago as well. It might be time to retire the old birds so not all of them are destroyed. It seems too risky to keep flying them Someone like Paul Allen that doesn't have to think about costs can probably do it forever since he could probably 3d print replacement parts in metal if he had to. If money starts to dictate maintenance schedules it's time to shut it down. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:22:52 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sad that the old girl was lost. Another one was lost a few years ago as well. It might be time to retire the old birds so not all of them are destroyed. It seems too risky to keep flying them It's only risky when you don't maintain them... As said previously...shoestringing the budget is the real risk. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:25:07 PM EDT
[#20]
Damn, I forgot about that crash.
I flew on the 909 with my grandfather back in the 90s. He was gunner on a B-17 during the war. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:26:04 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The chief maintenance inspector was the pilot? Seriously? How dumb can they be? Zero oversight. Nothing wrong with that any more than a skydiver insisting on packing his own chute. Mechanics and pilots are often times one and the same. Especially when it comes to outfits like these. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:26:45 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. Sounds like there may have been some issues with the ones they did rebuild as well. I am also wondering how they managed to get over 800 hours on an 80-year old radial without some significant maintenance, to include staying on top of checking the plugs and mags. Even when they were new, radials were known to burn a LOT of oil. |
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:31:56 PM EDT
[#23]
That entire operation was ran like a carnival ride.
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Posted: 3/26/2020 11:32:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. $$$ |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 12:14:43 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. There's a number of legitimate reasons. TBO for those is typically 1000 hours. That's a recommendation. The dead giveaway that they need it is when they start consuming oil at a significantly higher rate. But that one wasn't really due for it yet. And that's not too surprising . It's not uncommon that engines and props have significantly different amounts of hours on them. That foundation no doubt has a number of spare R-1820's to put on when the time is right. But none of this much matters. The engine problem didn't directly cause the crash. Those fly fine on 3 engines. Sounds like there may have been an error or two involved. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 7:57:01 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: There's a number of legitimate reasons. TBO for those is typically 1000 hours. That's a recommendation. The dead giveaway that they need it is when they start consuming oil at a significantly higher rate. But that one wasn't really due for it yet. And that's not too surprising . It's not uncommon that engines and props have significantly different amounts of hours on them. That foundation no doubt has a number of spare R-1820's to put on when the time is right. But none of this much matters. The engine problem didn't directly cause the crash. Those fly fine on 3 engines. Sounds like there may have been an error or two involved. That aircraft wasn't properly maintained. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 8:01:05 AM EDT
[#27]
Meh, I figured "pay to play" flights would bring everything down around their ears by and by.
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Posted: 3/27/2020 8:02:57 AM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sounds like there may have been some issues with the ones they did rebuild as well. I am also wondering how they managed to get over 800 hours on an 80-year old radial without some significant maintenance, to include staying on top of checking the plugs and mags. Even when they were new, radials were known to burn a LOT of oil. And apparently cough it up, too. I once made the mistake of standing by the landing gear under a DC-3 during start-up. I damn near had to change my clothes afterward. 
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Posted: 3/27/2020 8:10:56 AM EDT
[#29]
Watch out if you fly an antique or classic light airplane, the FAA, airlines, and manufacturers would love to see all of them grounded.
The FAA's charter is "to promote aviation", not erect obstacles at every turn. But like much of modern life, maybe not so modern looking back, words don't mean much and less when uttered by a government. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 8:11:44 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The preliminary report doesn’t say much. That was immediately after the accident. A typical preliminary report. I'd read the reports, not news articles before drawing many conclusions. Another minor detail missing these days is reporting that is worth a damn. Plenty of the peanut gallery analysis that always shows up in threads like this. Every time. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 8:35:26 AM EDT
[#31]
Ouch.
Just yesterday it popped up in my Facebook memories that it had been 4 years to the day since I took a ride on Nine-O-Nine. That was an absolutely amazing day. Sad to hear about things like this. As others have said I am a big proponent of seeing these old war birds fly but c'mon people, let's make sure we are doing it the right way. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 8:41:03 AM EDT
[#32]
That report didn't pull any punches and Collins Foundation was called out for cutting corners.
It can't be cheap to operate such vintage and specialized aircraft, but if you take the money to take people up, you've got the responsibility to get them back again safely. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 8:42:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Money. Always about money. If you have possession of such an aircraft no matter the usage, you need to be by the book period. Money can be no issue. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. Money. Always about money. If you have possession of such an aircraft no matter the usage, you need to be by the book period. Money can be no issue. But you’re correct. It always IS about the money. I just found out my company uses recaps on our steer tires. We are not buses. So it’s “legal”. Legal and smart are not in the same ballpark. You have a steer tire come apart at 65 on a 70,000 pound truck... Fuck. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 9:21:24 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. Each engine is and prop are on their own schedule and performance analysis. The Collings Foundation doesn't rebuild any engine or engine accessory . That is left to FAA licensed shops, there is no shoestring budget. If a copnent is needed the aircraft gets it. 30 years of operation with NO mishap should tell you something. Unfortunately one day things went really bad. Mac was far from being a "clown", he babied 909 and was constantly working, prodding and tinkering with it when he wasn't flying her. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 9:36:57 AM EDT
[#35]
Just a reminder I had a bell crank pin shear while pulling into my driveway on my willys. I drove into the yard on accident and stopped quickly.
I had been driving 45 right before that on the highway. Antique stuff is scary. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 9:47:44 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Dick Blumenthal is such a worthless piece of shit. I hope he catches the wuhan and dies. He literally fucks up every issue he deals with. Agreed! 
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:02:09 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That aircraft wasn't properly maintained. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: There's a number of legitimate reasons. TBO for those is typically 1000 hours. That's a recommendation. The dead giveaway that they need it is when they start consuming oil at a significantly higher rate. But that one wasn't really due for it yet. And that's not too surprising . It's not uncommon that engines and props have significantly different amounts of hours on them. That foundation no doubt has a number of spare R-1820's to put on when the time is right. But none of this much matters. The engine problem didn't directly cause the crash. Those fly fine on 3 engines. Sounds like there may have been an error or two involved. That aircraft wasn't properly maintained. That has nothing to do with what I just said. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The only thing we seem to know here is they had a problem with the #4 engine. That alone shouldn't make that aircraft unflyable. It sounds as if the more direct reason for the accident was probably pilot error. What exactly makes you say that aircraft wasn't properly maintained? |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:06:06 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That has nothing to do with what I just said. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The only thing we seem to know here is they had a problem with the #4 engine. That alone shouldn't make that aircraft unflyable. It sounds as if the more direct reason for the accident was probably pilot error. What exactly makes you say that aircraft wasn't properly maintained? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: There's a number of legitimate reasons. TBO for those is typically 1000 hours. That's a recommendation. The dead giveaway that they need it is when they start consuming oil at a significantly higher rate. But that one wasn't really due for it yet. And that's not too surprising . It's not uncommon that engines and props have significantly different amounts of hours on them. That foundation no doubt has a number of spare R-1820's to put on when the time is right. But none of this much matters. The engine problem didn't directly cause the crash. Those fly fine on 3 engines. Sounds like there may have been an error or two involved. That aircraft wasn't properly maintained. That has nothing to do with what I just said. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. The only thing we seem to know here is they had a problem with the #4 engine. That alone shouldn't make that aircraft unflyable. It sounds as if the more direct reason for the accident was probably pilot error. What exactly makes you say that aircraft wasn't properly maintained? I guess because they didn't overhaul an engine at 10%+ of the TBO.
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:09:42 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Nothing wrong with that any more than a skydiver insisting on packing his own chute. Mechanics and pilots are often times one and the same. Especially when it comes to outfits like these. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The chief maintenance inspector was the pilot? Seriously? How dumb can they be? Zero oversight. Nothing wrong with that any more than a skydiver insisting on packing his own chute. Mechanics and pilots are often times one and the same. Especially when it comes to outfits like these. I'm a pilot with an A&P. It's not that uncommon. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:09:57 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Each engine is and prop are on their own schedule and performance analysis. The Collings Foundation doesn't rebuild any engine or engine accessory . That is left to FAA licensed shops, there is no shoestring budget. If a copnent is needed the aircraft gets it. 30 years of operation with NO mishap should tell you something. Unfortunately one day things went really bad. Mac was far from being a "clown", he babied 909 and was constantly working, prodding and tinkering with it when he wasn't flying her. Maybe I'm ignorant here, but the report would indicate that the engine had a known mag issue to the point that they were working on it minutes before takeoff. If any other passenger aircraft had an issue with something as important as the ignition system of the engine would it still have taken off? I'm not an A&P but it would seem that they were given special waivers from the FAA to operate with passengers and did some things a normal airline would not do. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:11:39 AM EDT
[#41]
As much as I love these old war birds, we are probably reaching a point in the future where most of them need to be preserved and not flown. Spares are less and less available every day and you can only refurb things so many times, and as someone else said. If you don't have multi billionaire money to make parts, then you're probably going to be SOL keeping them alive.
I'd hate to see the loss of more of these planes that in this day / age are increasingly rare already. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:12:01 AM EDT
[#42]
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:13:42 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As much as I love these old war birds, we are probably reaching a point in the future where most of them need to be preserved and not flown. Spares are less and less available every day and you can only refurb things so many times, and as someone else said. If you don't have multi billionaire money to make parts, then you're probably going to be SOL keeping them alive. I'd hate to see the loss of more of these planes that in this day / age are increasingly rare already. Some places make new parts for them. If they would of stayed on their maintenance program and not cut corners it would seem that the engines would of been fine. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:17:41 AM EDT
[#44]
We had an R985 blow a jug, replaced it with a "new" overhauled 985. That one blew a jug less than a month later. Shit happens on old ass radial engines.
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:22:22 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: As much as I love these old war birds, we are probably reaching a point in the future where most of them need to be preserved and not flown. Spares are less and less available every day and you can only refurb things so many times, and as someone else said. If you don't have multi billionaire money to make parts, then you're probably going to be SOL keeping them alive. I'd hate to see the loss of more of these planes that in this day / age are increasingly rare already. Actually, they've got warehouses full of parts for these things. Plenty of parts ready to go and plenty of ability to manufacture new parts from scratch. Check out the pics at this link. http://andersonaeromotive.net/photo-gallery-of-anderson-aeromotive/curtiss-wright/ |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:24:54 AM EDT
[#46]
Well Crap! I rode on 9-0-9 a few years ago and loved it.
In another life I was a squadron QA Chief and later a Maintenance Control Chief. You can not take shortcuts with aviation maintenance. We lost an F/A-18 because of it. I hope the Collings Foundation can get their shit together and regain the certificate. That's assuming they survive the lawsuits and insurance costs. I still want a ride on a B-24 and B-25 someday. ETA: I'm of the opinion that properly inspected and maintained an aircraft can fly almost indefinitely. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:27:32 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gotta wonder why they rebuilt 3 engines and not 4. Gotta wonder why the pilot shut down two engines? A rough magneto is not an emergency in an airplane with four engines. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:40:32 AM EDT
[#48]
Unless I missed something, the only potential issue was in engine #4. The fact that this engine did not receive a “major overhaul” while the other three did, doesn’t really tell us anything either. Such as whether #4 actually needed that at the time.
That plane can easily fly on 3 engines. Something more happened. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:42:15 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Each engine is and prop are on their own schedule and performance analysis. The Collings Foundation doesn't rebuild any engine or engine accessory . That is left to FAA licensed shops, there is no shoestring budget. If a copnent is needed the aircraft gets it. 30 years of operation with NO mishap should tell you something. Unfortunately one day things went really bad. Mac was far from being a "clown", he babied 909 and was constantly working, prodding and tinkering with it when he wasn't flying her. Having flown the warbird circuit for 11 years, writing a SOP for similar flights in a UH-1H, and knowing many of the Collings folks, to say this surprised me is an understatement. |
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Posted: 3/27/2020 10:43:45 AM EDT
[#50]
Stop flying the damn things and put an end to it. Park them in museums so boomers can drool over the good old days.
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