Peacetime military service. Probably more dangerous than you think. - Page 1

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Posted: 8/25/2014 1:08:43 PM EST

I've seen a number of comments over the years implying that there is a different value to service in peacetime because it wasn't combat service. I think the idea being that a service member is not in "harm's way" if they served during peacetime or didn't deploy.

I served in both peace and war. Preparing for war is actually pretty dangerous business. A post in the basic training thread reminded me of this.

Before 9/11 I did an NTC rotation where a vehicle in my brigade was driving at night and drove into an open fighting position. The TC was killed.

When I was at Fort Hood in the 90's, three soldiers were down range in a training area adjoining a live fire coax range. Yep, they were engaged and killed.

Again, Fort Hood in the 1990's, I remember a vehicle rollover on North Fort Hood in the maneuver area that killed a young LT.

These were just off the top of my head. I'm pretty sure if I racked my brain, I could recall more examples from adjoining units.

All of the above were very likely preventable, but they weren't.

Preparing for war it dangerous business. Even in peacetime.

If your service was peacetime service, it isn't like you weren't at risk.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:11:37 PM EST

[#1]

Bad shit happens all the time during training. I agree with you. Also training for war isn't easy on your body over a career either.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:12:54 PM EST

[#2]

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Bad shit happens all the time during training. I agree with you. Also training for war isn't easy on your body over a career either.

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The military ages a man in dog years.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:13:00 PM EST

[#3]

Tracker out at 29 Palms doing head space on the M2 with a loaded gun and twisting the barrel for the guy in the UGWS had the idiot in the turret depress the trigger. Went through his vest, through him, and through the back of the vest pretty easily.

Then there are the guys who drowned from using the throttle instead of the pedal - Oki, I think - maybe late 90s.

ETA: Then there's that LCpl road guard who was left to direct traffic in 29 Palms and forgotten for 3 days while he died of dehydration - and is now used as an example for what not to do in the desert. And for command to get positive accountability of all their men rather than go on a 96 with a LCpl forgotten in the wasteland.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:16:03 PM EST

[#4]

Yep, I've been attacked by sea snakes retrieving Oscar the SAR dummy in the Persian Gulf and bumped by sharks retrieving square groupers in the Caribbean sea.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:17:03 PM EST

[#5]

As you enter Kelley Hill on Ft Benning there is a sign. The other day it read :

"Days since last training death: 7"

"Days since last training accident: 0"

(I'm fairly certain I remember the order of these correctly. I was driving and on the phone, wireless of course. I remember thinking "oh shit" when I read it.)

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:21:21 PM EST

[#6]

If you include all of the training deaths, The Cold War had about the same number KIA as Viet Nam.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:23:33 PM EST

[#7]

Working a flight deck during ops is dangerous as hell in peace or war.
I did it for a few years during peace time.
It was enough.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:23:35 PM EST

[#8]

1977 Mindoro Island PI, CH-53 crash 24 killed

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:25:45 PM EST

[#9]

Just recently there were EOD techs killed handling ordnance here on Camp Pendleton. Marines killed during a night time mortar shoot at Hawthorne. Another poor bastard was run over while sleeping in his skirmishers trench by a bulldozer in 29 Palms. Just some examples I can think of.

Edit: misspelling. Thanks MARINEORDIE

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:26:08 PM EST

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
Tracker out at 29 Palms doing head space on the M2 with a loaded gun and twisting the barrel for the guy in the UGWS had the idiot in the turret depress the trigger. Went through his vest, through him, and through the back of the vest pretty easily.

Then there are the guys who drowned from using the throttle instead of the pedal - Oki, I think - maybe late 90s.

ETA: Then there's that LCpl road guard who was left to direct traffic in 29 Palms and forgotten for 3 days while he died of dehydration - and is now used as an example for what not to do in the desert. And for command to get positive accountability of all their men rather than go on a 96 with a LCpl forgotten in the wasteland.

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Pretty sure I was there for this one, If not it also happend while I was there. It was in 95' after the finex at a CAX.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:27:05 PM EST

[#11]

+1

I was in Operation Gallant Eagle back in '82 and we had 8 troops die during it.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:27:18 PM EST

[#12]

Absolutely.

Working in a maritime environment is dangerous at any time, as is training in the field.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:27:41 PM EST

[#13]

Quote History

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The military ages a man in dog years.

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Quoted:
Bad shit happens all the time during training. I agree with you. Also training for war isn't easy on your body over a career either.

The military ages a man in dog years.

I only did four years and my left knee is in constant discomfort and hurts like a bitch if I run distance.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:30:00 PM EST

[#14]

1986 ... TDY to Canadian Forces Base at Lahr, West Germany with a squadron of F-15s. We were over there for a month. Lost two maintenance guys to "accidents". Thing is they both died the exact same way, they either jumped or were pushed/thrown off a bridge onto railroad tracks and hit by an oncoming train. We did a fingers and toes detail and found all the parts, almost ... Never found either guys military ID. These two incidents happened about a week apart.

I think the AF officially ruled it an accident, but ... Pretty easily could have been red army, bader meinhof, or some other terrorist outfit killed them for their ID cards. We were under a substantial terrorist threat, and the bad guys had blown up the BX at Ramstein, a disco in Berlin, etc. Also caught a pair or tangos who had a propane bomb in the trunk of an old Fiat and had been recording the comings and goings at the ammo dump (nukes) at Spandahlem.

And never forget the 241 Marines who died in Beirut in '83. I lost a high school buddy in that one.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:30:11 PM EST

[#15]

At FTCKY we used to have accidents all the time. we got a 3 day weekend if we went 101 days without an auto fatality . It only happened once in my 19+ months .

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:31:51 PM EST

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:
Just recently there were EOD techs killed handling ordinance ordnance here on Camp Pendleton. Marines killed during a night time mortar shoot at Hawthorne. Another poor bastard was run over while sleeping in his skirmishers trench by a bulldozer in 29 Palms. Just some examples I can think of.

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FIFY

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:33:38 PM EST

[#17]

You're not wrong. During a 4 month peacetime Kuwait deployment with a battalion task force in 2001, we lost 8 soldiers in 3 different incidents.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:35:52 PM EST

[#18]

I was amazed at the time, of all the Naval Aviation accidents back in the late 80's. I remember the Spruance lost a helo crossing the pond in '88 and the commander of the Carrier Battle Group gave them only 2 hours to search.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:37:03 PM EST

[#19]

O/C duty at NTC was a pretty risky job.

While I was stationed there it was nearly a guarantee someone would die from the rotational unit or OPS group, during each rotation.

Worst was the 6 mortar men dying while extracting a misfire

ETA - Many locations at NTC are named after deaths. 1SG wash, Jose Rod Wadi... Take the hardball out past Medina Wasil and you'll see Col Hamby's grave site fenced in. Former Col of the Regiment who was run over long ago.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:38:02 PM EST

[#20]

Lost more guys in the motor pool in one year in garrison than we did in Bosnia, and we lost guys in Bosnia.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:42:49 PM EST

[#21]

We use to call CH-46s "Crowd Killers" or "Boeing Vertol Body Bags". We had a run of bad blades and it killed a shit load of Marines.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:44:56 PM EST

[#22]

The US Army has published studies showing (historically) up to 1-in-7 US combat casualties are victims of friendly fire (up to and including Lieutenant Generals).

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:47:04 PM EST

[#23]

Very true, me and my team were shot at while doing team live fire lanes because a certain LT wanted to rush the whole platoon threw the lane.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:47:21 PM EST

[#24]

I served completely in peace time.

But, just to add to the thread:

I was around a few serious injuries.

A group of guys (Army guys) were standing along a road, a duce and a half drove by full of troops, one of the guys in the truck fired a parachute flare at the guys along the road. The flare hit a guy in the head and ignited. I wasn't there but was on the exercise. Needless to say the guy that got hit was DRT.

I was on a firing range. We were firing an ADA gun. From behind me there was an explosion that blew my helmet off my head. I turned around and three guys were literally flying through the air. What had happened is that they had a misfire. Against all training they opened the breechblock, trying to get the gun back in action. . The round cooked off right in their faces. They were burned pretty bad but all survived.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:50:39 PM EST

[#25]

A friend of a friend just died doing land nav during BOLC.

He survived one of the worst years in Afghanistan ever.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:51:25 PM EST

[#26]

Ft. Hood sounds like it was a dangerous place, OP.

I had a friend who was stationed there in the mid-'80s as a Cav Scout. His platoon of Bradley's wound up getting engaged with live machine gun fire for some reason. I don't remember exactly.

He said it gave him confidence in his equipment because they didn't penetrate the armor. He had pictures of .30 cal bullets lodged in the frontal armor and a crack in his (driver's) periscope.

When I was at Ft. Carson, as an MP, I took an accident report for an Infantry platoon that got lost and drove out of the maneuver area and into an impact area. The LT in charge ordered his M113 right over a 20' cliff. His driver received a flailed chest from the hatch coaming, he received an orbital skull fracture. There were multiple minor injuries for the guys in the passenger compartment. The driver of the track behind them saw the first M113 just disappear from his night-vision. He stopped his vehicle and went forward on foot to see what happened. He walked right off the same cliff and landed on the back of the other track. Broke both legs, one arm and a spinal fracture.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:51:34 PM EST

[#27]

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We use to call CH-46s "Crowd Killers" or "Boeing Vertol Body Bags". We had a run of bad blades and it killed a shit load of Marines.

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CV-22s were bad news for a long time, too.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:52:26 PM EST

[#28]

Quote History

Quoted:
A friend of a friend just died doing land nav during BOLC.

He survived one of the worst years in Afghanistan ever.

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the fuck?
Dehydration?

Where at? Benning?

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:53:28 PM EST

[#29]

I believe I read that there were more non-combat related fatalities than combat related fatalities in the Iraq war.

In peace or war, being a service member can be dangerous as fuck.

I remember an old story my old SSG told me. I believe it was Fort Drum early 2000s. A FTX was near enough to a live fire mortar range. Mortar crew got the grid wrong and lobbed a few shells into/near a GP medium of the FTX instead of the impact area. Killed quite a few guys.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:53:41 PM EST

[#30]

One of my buddies rolled a HUMVEE earlier this year. Lost a leg.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:54:22 PM EST

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:

the fuck?
Dehydration?

Where at? Benning?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
A friend of a friend just died doing land nav during BOLC.

He survived one of the worst years in Afghanistan ever.

the fuck?
Dehydration?

Where at? Benning?

Happened more than once at Ft Hood when I was there.

Posted: 8/25/2014 1:57:56 PM EST

[#32]

Lots of scary stuff went on in Latin America and South America during the 80s. We were not at war, but it was then next best thing to it.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:00:58 PM EST

[#33]

Yep definitely a dangerous job whether your in Iraq or the US. Had a guy from my company blow his leg off with a law, and another guy on base took a mk19 cheetos rd to the back of the head.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:02:10 PM EST

[#34]

The military loses people every day. I think we were losing as many people to auto and training accidents as we did to enemy action.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:02:48 PM EST

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:

the fuck?
Dehydration?

Where at? Benning?

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Quoted:

Quoted:
A friend of a friend just died doing land nav during BOLC.

He survived one of the worst years in Afghanistan ever.

the fuck?
Dehydration?

Where at? Benning?

Yeah, that's the consensus.

Fort Gordon.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:02:51 PM EST

[#36]

Have known, been involved in, or seen a few peacetime/training related fatalities or life changing injuries since I've been in. Parts of the military is like one big dangerous team sport.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:03:23 PM EST

[#37]

Talking with my father, aviation seemed like a hazardous business in the 1960s, and they thought they had it easy compared to the 1950s.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:03:40 PM EST

[#38]

I was a radio guy in the AF so I'd listen to the net when on the road for whatever reason.
We would do firearms training on some army base in southern Ga.
The crush and fall injuries, including out of helicopters requiring medical assistance was crazy.
Lots of heavy metal hauling ass through and above those woods.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:05:47 PM EST

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:
Tracker out at 29 Palms doing head space on the M2 with a loaded gun and twisting the barrel for the guy in the UGWS had the idiot in the turret depress the trigger. Went through his vest, through him, and through the back of the vest pretty easily.

Then there are the guys who drowned from using the throttle instead of the pedal - Oki, I think - maybe late 90s.

ETA: Then there's that LCpl road guard who was left to direct traffic in 29 Palms and forgotten for 3 days while he died of dehydration - and is now used as an example for what not to do in the desert. And for command to get positive accountability of all their men rather than go on a 96 with a LCpl forgotten in the wasteland.

View Quote

That's entirely true. I went and did training out in 29 palms towards the beginning of the year and that was in our RSO/OIC training briefs.

There are actually a lot of incidents like the ones mentioned. Being a tracker I hear them all the time, and also witness them.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:06:17 PM EST

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
O/C duty at NTC was a pretty risky job.

While I was stationed there it was nearly a guarantee someone would die from the rotational unit or OPS group, during each rotation.

Worst was the 6 mortar men dying while extracting a misfire

ETA - Many locations at NTC are named after deaths. 1SG wash, Jose Rod Wadi... Take the hardball out past Medina Wasil and you'll see Col Hamby's grave site fenced in. Former Col of the Regiment who was run over long ago.

View Quote

I travelled out to Ft Irwin a few times while I was stationed out at George AFB. I was always struck by the number of memorials along the road between I-15 and main post. At one point there was ten miles of straight road down into one valley and up the other side and there must have been a dozen memorials along that stretch of road. I've wondered if any of those were related to all the "TANK X-ING" signs along that road.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:07:20 PM EST

[#41]

I remember a Coastie that was killed o the Polar Sea or Star when a rack broke loose and crushed him.

Another died in a fire on one of the 378

And don't forget the USCGC Blackthorn and USCGC Cuyahoga !!

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:12:43 PM EST

[#42]

What's even worse is being a peacetime reservist, especially in a unit that just got back from a combat deployment. I spent 6 years in the Marine Corps Reserve and joined my unit in '91 right after they returned from Kuwait in the Gulf War. Everyone was a combat veteran but me....and everyone else that joined after.
I was in school at 29 Palms before the war started until after it was over and 7th MEB returned. You get no respect as a student during wartime or as a peacetime reservist.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:14:38 PM EST

[#43]

Quote History

Quoted:
I believe I read that there were more non-combat related fatalities than combat related fatalities in the Iraq war.

In peace or war, being a service member can be dangerous as fuck.

I remember an old story my old SSG told me. I believe it was Fort Drum early 2000s. A FTX was near enough to a live fire mortar range. Mortar crew got the grid wrong and lobbed a few shells into/near a GP medium of the FTX instead of the impact area. Killed quite a few guys.

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I recall some figures used to try and quiet down the "Our boys are dying! Get out of Iraq now!!!" was that there were more fatalities Stateside during training than there were during the same period as Desert Shield/Desert Storm. I know for fact that we had more fatal aircraft crashes that year during training than during combat in Desert Storm.

During my twenty years on active duty I knew more flight crew members who died on training missions (20) than I knew who died on combat missions (0).

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:17:25 PM EST

[#44]

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+1

I was in Operation Gallant Eagle back in '82 and we had 8 troops die during it.

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Was there with you. As I recall, high winds and parachutes...

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:21:02 PM EST

[#45]

Quote History

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Was there with you. As I recall, high winds and parachutes...

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Quoted:

+1

I was in Operation Gallant Eagle back in '82 and we had 8 troops die during it.

Was there with you. As I recall, high winds and parachutes...

Yeah and a couple Marines in a rollover accident and an Army LT(?) that died of heat stroke IIRC.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:25:29 PM EST

[#46]

I remember numerous fatal rollover accidents on Pendleton. And planes and helicopters go down fairly often, without ever making the news. Not to mention all of the broken bones, muscle strains, back injuries, etc. It's certainly more dangerous than most civilian jobs, for anyone in a combat MOS.

When I was a recruit at MCRD, I recall seeing a crippled recruit in a wheelchair. Our DI told us that he had fallen on the confidence course. So even boot can be dangerous.

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:27:29 PM EST

[#47]

Quote History

Quoted:

That's entirely true. I went and did training out in 29 palms towards the beginning of the year and that was in our RSO/OIC training briefs.

There are actually a lot of incidents like the ones mentioned. Being a tracker I hear them all the time, and also witness them.

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Quoted:

Quoted:
Tracker out at 29 Palms doing head space on the M2 with a loaded gun and twisting the barrel for the guy in the UGWS had the idiot in the turret depress the trigger. Went through his vest, through him, and through the back of the vest pretty easily.

Then there are the guys who drowned from using the throttle instead of the pedal - Oki, I think - maybe late 90s.

ETA: Then there's that LCpl road guard who was left to direct traffic in 29 Palms and forgotten for 3 days while he died of dehydration - and is now used as an example for what not to do in the desert. And for command to get positive accountability of all their men rather than go on a 96 with a LCpl forgotten in the wasteland.

That's entirely true. I went and did training out in 29 palms towards the beginning of the year and that was in our RSO/OIC training briefs.

There are actually a lot of incidents like the ones mentioned. Being a tracker I hear them all the time, and also witness them.

But let's not forget the most important thing out there at 29 Palms:

I remember hearing in 2002 that there was some unit - can't remember who, so I'll just blame 1/7, that went out and painted/carved their unit info into a turtle's shell. Tortoise didn't die, but when the BLM/EPA/USFS/USFWS govt bunnyhugger found it, they knew damn well who did it.

Plus since those tortoises live like 70 years (unless you scare them and they piss themselves and die of dehydration) there's still some tortoise wandering around with "Gunny Asshole Sucks Dicks" and a unit number painted or carved into his shell. Hell, there's probably one crawling around with "2nd Lt. Puller Is A Fag" on his shell.

YAT YAS

Posted: 8/25/2014 2:28:09 PM EST

[#48]

In Tom Kratman's "A Desert Called Peace" series soldiers in the fictional army receive purple hearts for injuries sustained in training. The logic is that training injuries are worthy of just as much honor as an injury sustained in combat, because training is vital for success in combat. I can't say that I disagree.