[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 9 of 142)
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Quoted: I keep seeing this. The response to a state LEA banning the gun from its training campus because of a witnessed event is "the agency is dumb/trans/liberal". Remind me again who the fanboys are? Quoted: Quoted: I'm sure you're academy doesn't have all day lectures on trans history or "safe rooms" for the recruits to sit in when they feel overwhelmed. I'm also sure the person running your training center didn't graduate from the most liberal college in the US. I keep seeing this. The response to a state LEA banning the gun from its training campus because of a witnessed event is "the agency is dumb/trans/liberal". Remind me again who the fanboys are? If it were just one account, that would be something you could so dismiss. but we keep seeing Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, Discharge safety issue after, ... what's the headcount of named plaintiffs in group lawsuits up to now? have we hit 1000 yet? But....but... my unit sitting in a vibration free safe hasn't gone off - isn't exactly the safety metric of proof. |
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Attached File Oh the horror, 320’s left unattended to hurt the women and children! Attached File Caution trigger warning! Attached File Ended up buying a FDE fcu, couple of mags and sig ammo at 15% off. Shot the Spear LT and Rattler….It was a good visit. |
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Quoted: Why would one angst over a questionable pistol with numerous dangerous failures, whilst true perfection is available to the discerning shooter? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/137/IMG_1480_jpeg-3485090.JPG Need a manual safety
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Quoted: I had a German P228. I chose the P365 X-Macro over it any day! Quoted: Quoted: If they'd just bring back the 228 and 232, all would be forgiven. I had a German P228. I chose the P365 X-Macro over it any day! |
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Quoted: Watch this and give an explanation as to how it is failing. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This. Explain why it's happening. So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. |
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Quoted: How did it pass the CA drop test thing? Quoted: Quoted: So they're blaming anti-gunners? ![]() I mean, I'd love to own one but they're like $800 here in CA. How did it pass the CA drop test thing? California version has some unusual features added to it. That may have had an impact |
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Quoted: Well no. For example, a Glock has an internal firing pin block. The firing pin is blocked from reaching the primer unless the trigger is pulled which disengages the firing pin block. Quoted: Quoted: Any gun of any design that fires on a center fire catridge can fire without a trigger pull. All you need is for the firing pin to hit the primer with enough force. Murphy's law, over a long enough time, is completely undefeated by humanity. I read the pics at the tweet and the word that comes to mind is "hubris." This, coming from a dude with no dog in this fight. Well no. For example, a Glock has an internal firing pin block. The firing pin is blocked from reaching the primer unless the trigger is pulled which disengages the firing pin block. |
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Quoted: So what does that post even mean? That literally looks like a pissed-off drunk-post rant, that doesn't say anything. -Are they discontinuing the P320? -Are they going to start suing for slander, everyone who sues them? That'll keep them rather busy, considering the number involved. -Are they going to hire a bunch of Indian's to farm forums for negative posts and get into online arguments now? (Oh God Please Please Please!!) If it were me, I'd discontinue the P320 and come out with the New and Improved Sig 023P !! And just rework the trigger, maybe with a dingus. |
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Quoted: GOOD GRIEF! So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. To be fair they’re only supposed to ram each other assuming something else has already gone wrong with the sear/striker Interface. |
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Quoted: California version has some unusual features added to it. That may have had an impact Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So they're blaming anti-gunners? ![]() I mean, I'd love to own one but they're like $800 here in CA. How did it pass the CA drop test thing? California version has some unusual features added to it. That may have had an impact Really? Didn't know that. |
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Quoted: . It was easily replicated and there are a hundred videos of it happening. Why do you think they offered to fix the pistols that were out there already?Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So they're blaming anti-gunners? ![]() I mean, I'd love to own one but they're like $800 here in CA. How did it pass the CA drop test thing? Because they fixed it even though nothing was wrong with it. . It was easily replicated and there are a hundred videos of it happening. Why do you think they offered to fix the pistols that were out there already?A hundred unique and individual cases? or two, with 98 reaction videos that you lumped in? |
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Quoted: Really? Didn't know that. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So they're blaming anti-gunners? ![]() I mean, I'd love to own one but they're like $800 here in CA. How did it pass the CA drop test thing? California version has some unusual features added to it. That may have had an impact Really? Didn't know that. Magazine disconnect as part of the FCU. Chamber Loaded Indicator (CLI) as part of the slide. Not a CLI is not a LCI as we know them. also believe they have to have the manual safety. |
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Quoted: Military NDs Private citizen Just because you didn't spend 2 seconds on Google and look at the 2 top results doesn't mean it's not happening |
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Best one I’ve seen yet!?? |
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Quoted: GOOD GRIEF! So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This. Explain why it's happening. So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. What you're describing only occurs in the event of a sear failure without the trigger being pulled. In a normally functioning pistol it never happens. As I was told when first qualifying on the 1911 in the Navy, all safety features are man made, subject to wear and tear and thus failure. |
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Quoted: To be fair they’re only supposed to ram each other assuming something else has already gone wrong with the sear/striker Interface. Quoted: Quoted: GOOD GRIEF! So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. That reminds me of the kind of stupid engineering crap I've seen under fords, and my experience with ford is that they couldn't engineer their way out of a wet paper bag to save their lives. |
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Quoted: The people defending sig will NEVER take the time to go look “It never happened to me, so fake news” It’s 2025, people are retarded and too lazy to educate themselves. Quoted: Quoted: Go read the long breakdown PDF associated with one of the recent lawsuits. They *did* go measure the components, take ultra high rez magnified photos, and analyze whether parts were in spec. The conclusion was that it was a sear machining issue, combined with the overall design of the platform. Parts had far too little engagement to be safe, and the critical mating surfaces weren't being machined after the MIM casting. The people defending sig will NEVER take the time to go look “It never happened to me, so fake news” It’s 2025, people are retarded and too lazy to educate themselves. Post a link to the PDF, I haven’t seen it and my Google-fu is failing me. |
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Quoted: GOOD GRIEF! So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This. Explain why it's happening. So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. The striker is only impacting the striker block if something fails allowing the striker to release without a pull of the trigger. During normal operation, the trigger pull rotates the block up and out of that notch, so it’s not being impacted by anything. |
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Quoted: It baffles me how this is only going on for Sig and the P320 and people still act like it's the operator error problem despite dozens of videos of guns shooting themselves in holsters. You didn't see this shit with Beretta M9s or even 1911s |
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I'm just a "Fudd" I suppose, as I only own one SiG and it's a hammer fired gun, the P220. Got it after I got home from Desert Storm. Never been dropped and it doesn't fire all by itself. Attached File |
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Quoted: Post a link to the PDF, I haven’t seen it and my Google-fu is failing me. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p/view?usp=drivesdk I’ve reviewed it ad nauseam, anyone with a technical background in the field and ounce of ethical impartiality would conclude it is a worthless assessment as far as conclusive evidence goes. It appeals to kitchen table engineers out of their depth and low information emotionally biased individuals with an axe to grind. Sig is handling this all childishly but simultaneously so are the accusers. The whole fiasco is a great “when assholes collide” situation further inflamed by the parties directly involved having substantial financial gain or loss potential. |
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Quoted: I drove my car for over 30 years without an accident so far but I should stop driving just in case? I'm not following your point. 8 million plus Americans smoke cigars and about 1.5 million get cancer per year according to a quick research check on google. That's 1 in 8. Is it the cigar that gives them cancer? No idea. So how do we translate that to how many p320 pistols (a million maybe, or more) are in service versus how many have supposedly gone off? I would expect way more people having a p320 going off than a few here and there. I hear more "my friend has a friend that saw it happened" than actual proof that the pistol failed on its own. |
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Quoted: Or P365......... Quoted: Quoted: It baffles me how this is only going on for Sig and the P320 and people still act like it's the operator error problem despite dozens of videos of guns shooting themselves in holsters. You didn't see this shit with Beretta M9s or even 1911s It's weird. Given Glock still has the highest market share of pistols out there you'd think there'd be dozens of videos of them going off while holstered. |
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Quoted: They don't. Required start position for DA/SA is hammer down. Safety does not need to be applied. Quoted: Quoted: That's an interesting tidbit I wasn't aware of. Do the rules prevent you from changing a stock M9 or 92FS to a G series decocker only so that you don't have to fiddle with the safety in competition? Or do you have to buy a G series gun that comes with the decocker from the factory? I've got both, so it wouldn't be an issue if I wanted to shoot a match. Crazy they would allow striker guns that don't require an additional manual operation to fire, but they do require you to use a safety on a DA/SA where arguably the DA pull is an additional operation since you are using the trigger to cock the hammer before the shot. They don't. Required start position for DA/SA is hammer down. Safety does not need to be applied. |
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Quoted: I'm just a "Fudd" I suppose, as I only own one SiG and it's a hammer fired gun, the P220. Got it after I got home from Desert Storm. Never been dropped and it doesn't fire all by itself. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/592307/1000033014_jpg-3485239.JPG W. Germany is the best Sig. |
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Quoted: It's the same group of guys in every 320 thread. lol |
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Quoted: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p/view?usp=drivesdk I've reviewed it ad nauseam, anyone with a technical background in the field and ounce of ethical impartiality would conclude it is a worthless assessment as far as conclusive evidence goes. It appeals to kitchen table engineers out of their depth and low information emotionally biased individuals with an axe to grind. Sig is handling this all childishly but simultaneously so are the accusers. The whole fiasco is a great "when assholes collide" situation further inflamed by the parties directly involved having substantial financial gain or loss potential. That report is pretty damning actually. Interesting that Sig is casting MIM and stamping parts like sears and safety components with no additional fitting or processing. You are obviously pretty invested in this and emotionally charged against the report. Do you have any rebut to their evidence or just a snarky attitude? It's pretty clear to summarize that sloppy manufacturing and quality control yielded a product with loose internal tolerances that when stacked, prevented proper operation of the design safety features. And Sig even tested and duplicated those circumstances. But Sig dindu nuffin ![]() |
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Quoted: It’s amusing that some of you think that a product built by engineers who didn’t realize that the trigger had enough mass to pull itself when dropped think this thing is well engineered. Sig is retarded. They build guns for retards. The .277 is a .270 Winchester with a 10 inch barrel that has a very short barrel life. They have built entire platforms (MPX…which I own) and basically abandoned them. They use MIM for parts that break all the time. I love my P228. The real P210 is a gem. The rest of their stuff is garbage for Instagram. They spend all their money and efforts on social media influencing and government contracts via retired flag officers. So its been said and so it shall be proclaimed from this day hence forth: Law enforcement and militaries around the world as well as thousands of civilians, you are all retarded. |
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Quoted: The striker is only impacting the striker block if something fails allowing the striker to release without a pull of the trigger. During normal operation, the trigger pull rotates the block up and out of that notch, so it’s not being impacted by anything. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This. Explain why it's happening. So lemme get this straight: the "safety" finger in the striker that keeps it from hitting the primer does not ride in the stop in normal usage, instead, what it does is ... gets in the way and gets smashed into the stop on the striker if something otherwise sets off the striker besides the trigger. So you have to count on this "safety" which is *designed* to be slammed into with all the force of that spring every single time. Neither the stop on the striker body OR the finger on the "safety" can fail, and it's two parts designed to slam into each other? OH HECK NO. ![]() Well, that's all she wrote for me, even if I had the money to buy one of these, I wouldn't now, not after seeing that. Parts designed to ram into each other that you can't trivally inspect daily? Get out of here. --- I am not an expert. I am not an amateur. I do not do this for a living or in any other way. I am saying this because I don't trust lawyers and what I saw in that other video about sig's behavior. The striker is only impacting the striker block if something fails allowing the striker to release without a pull of the trigger. During normal operation, the trigger pull rotates the block up and out of that notch, so it’s not being impacted by anything. Yes, I understood it that way before I came to post my reaction. It's still dumber than a box of rocks, and now I understand why people are talking about finding safety fingers broken off in the striker and why metallurgy and tolerances are more important in this design than I personally think they should be. |
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Quoted: Got my new Raider setup dialed in just now and took my lab for a 2 mile run around the farm on the four wheeler… had my Raider slung the whole time with a round in the chamber… Guess I got lucky again! https://i.imgur.com/aAg9yVy.jpeg Peace be with you, brother. I need to get me a Raider. |
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Quoted: I'm sure you're academy doesn't have all day lectures on trans history or "safe rooms" for the recruits to sit in when they feel overwhelmed. I'm also sure the person running your training center didn't graduate from the most liberal college in the US. This is fact lol. |
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Quoted: That report is pretty damning actually. Interesting that Sig is casting MIM and stamping parts like sears and safety components with no additional fitting or processing. You are obviously pretty invested in this and emotionally charged against the report. Do you have any rebut to their evidence or just a snarky attitude? It's pretty clear to summarize that sloppy manufacturing and quality control yielded a product with loose internal tolerances that when stacked, prevented proper operation of the design safety features. And Sig even tested and duplicated those circumstances. But Sig dindu nuffin ![]() Sure, I mean my explicit background is firearms design and development with a specialty in handguns with a couple white sheet product families (i.e. entire new models from scratch) and numerous line extensions and derivatives on the market today. Additionally I work and have worked exclusively for competitors of Sig my entire career and as such I take an interest in their products from an engineering perspective. But let’s go ahead and cross examine Mr. Hicks’ analysis of the p320 as presented. Statement 1 referring to the sear and striker being MIM components without secondary processing operations. Mr Hicks correctly points out that flashing, internal material shrinkage, required corner radii for molding and additional surface irregularity from the process can and (in his sample) does reduce contact surface between the sear and striker. This is shitty engineering on Sigs part from the standpoint of functional consistency unit to unit for things like trigger weight, feel, and long term wear characteristics, but reduction of surface contact does not equate to a failure to contact. In no way does he prove empirically or theoretically here that the sear would fail to retain the striker. He further goes into a dimensional analysis of the components in 4 against a partially supplied sig technical drawing in fig 8. First he admits the CT scan used to gather the empirical dimensional data was insufficient to qualify the values against the drawing. This is due to the scans used being unable to capture 3D geometric data. At best you could call them approximations which sure as hell is not what you should be using when trying to make conclusive statements. The first dimension falls within the tolerance zone for the sear nose radius. The radius for the striker foot is approximated to be .009” which exceeds the print call out of .002” max (0.05mm). The deviation value likely means the striker is a non-conforming component, but Mr. Hicks provides no analysis giving any indication that the non-conformance yields an unsafe component. He makes an assumption the specification reflects functional safety based parameter with nothing but conjecture to back it up. Moving to 5 is where I’ll be honest, I get annoyed by the amount of ineptitude shown by the examiner and just how out of depth he is. He starts by showing a supposed mismatch is striker foot and sear face size. How much more the striker foot face extends above the sear face is entirely superfluous and it is very likely intentionally insured to be longer so deformation or manufacturing variance of the sear doesn’t yield a condition in which the sear would hook over the striker foot into the relief location. It’s as if the examiners only experience in sear engagement design is with an original positive engagement 1911 sear or simply believes that because the striker foot kinda looks like a hook, it should act like one. Followed by referring to .038” of sear and striker overlap as being minimal and at risk of disengagement. This is kind of an absurd statement on multiple fronts, A) he presents this as minimal when the reality is .038” of sear engagement and often even less is exceptionally common in firearms and in no way extraordinary on its own. B) he presents no evidence or analysis showing how far these components can move apart without trigger actuation to support it being extraordinary. He also ends up making simple English to metric conversion errors once again (seriously, fire your intern man or whoever proof reads your documents) Maybe I’ll get around to a part II of the review. But to be honest it continues about the same. Plenty of call outs of crappy engineering practices by sig (and they are crappy) and out of depth supposition of outputs from said practices (they made the part shitty, so it must also be unsafe.) but an entire lack of any empirical evidence or testing yielding the supposed failure or even simulated failure. It’s the engineering equivalent of an ad hominem hack piece, saying the equivalent of “Sig cheated on their wife, has 2 DUI’s, lied on their tax return, and kicked a puppy; so obviously they must have also killed neighbor’s dog. ETA. This is all to simply say, I think Sig makes some shitty engineering and manufacturing choices, but as much as I dislike them, I hate unethical “expert witnesses” and predatory lawfare even more. |
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Quoted: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p/view?usp=drivesdk I’ve reviewed it ad nauseam, anyone with a technical background in the field and ounce of ethical impartiality would conclude it is a worthless assessment as far as conclusive evidence goes. It appeals to kitchen table engineers out of their depth and low information emotionally biased individuals with an axe to grind. Sig is handling this all childishly but simultaneously so are the accusers. The whole fiasco is a great “when assholes collide” situation further inflamed by the parties directly involved having substantial financial gain or loss potential. Quoted: Quoted: Post a link to the PDF, I haven’t seen it and my Google-fu is failing me. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p/view?usp=drivesdk I’ve reviewed it ad nauseam, anyone with a technical background in the field and ounce of ethical impartiality would conclude it is a worthless assessment as far as conclusive evidence goes. It appeals to kitchen table engineers out of their depth and low information emotionally biased individuals with an axe to grind. Sig is handling this all childishly but simultaneously so are the accusers. The whole fiasco is a great “when assholes collide” situation further inflamed by the parties directly involved having substantial financial gain or loss potential. So, what financial gain does the military folks get that have accused Sig, ZERO. There are plenty of reports out there, go watch the video I posted earlier. |
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Quoted: So, what financial gain does the military folks get that have accused Sig, ZERO. There are plenty of reports out there, go watch the video I posted earlier. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Post a link to the PDF, I haven’t seen it and my Google-fu is failing me. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p/view?usp=drivesdk I’ve reviewed it ad nauseam, anyone with a technical background in the field and ounce of ethical impartiality would conclude it is a worthless assessment as far as conclusive evidence goes. It appeals to kitchen table engineers out of their depth and low information emotionally biased individuals with an axe to grind. Sig is handling this all childishly but simultaneously so are the accusers. The whole fiasco is a great “when assholes collide” situation further inflamed by the parties directly involved having substantial financial gain or loss potential. So, what financial gain does the military folks get that have accused Sig, ZERO. There are plenty of reports out there, go watch the video I posted earlier. sure about that? Go watch the video. Notice the 45+ minutes on ethics challenges. Shit, that's how Glock orginally won in the 80's 90's with PD's - strippers and parties for the right decision makers. You sure no favor wa curried? you sure the Army didn't just half ass for the much cheaper pistol? shit, go read on how they half assed the trials with beater M4's and random mags vs New oiled SCAR's |
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Quoted: Sure, I mean my explicit background is firearms design and development with a specialty in handguns with a couple white sheet product families (i.e. entire new models from scratch) and numerous line extensions and derivatives on the market today. Additionally I work and have worked exclusively for competitors of Sig my entire career and as such I take an interest in their products from an engineering perspective. But let’s go ahead and cross examine Mr. Hicks’ analysis of the p320 as presented. Statement 1 referring to the sear and striker being MIM components without secondary processing operations. Mr Hicks correctly points out that flashing, internal material shrinkage, required corner radii for molding and additional surface irregularity from the process can and (in his sample) does reduce contact surface between the sear and striker. This is shitty engineering on Sigs part from the standpoint of functional consistency unit to unit for things like trigger weight, feel, and long term wear characteristics, but reduction of surface contact does not equate to a failure to contact. In no way does he prove empirically or theoretically here that the sear would fail to retain the striker. He further goes into a dimensional analysis of the components in 4 against a partially supplied sig technical drawing in fig 8. First he admits the CT scan used to gather the empirical dimensional data was insufficient to qualify the values against the drawing. This is due to the scans used being unable to capture 3D geometric data. At best you could call them approximations which sure as hell is not what you should be using when trying to make conclusive statements. The first dimension falls within the tolerance zone for the sear nose radius. The radius for the striker foot is approximated to be .009” which exceeds the print call out of .002” max (0.05mm). The deviation value likely means the striker is a non-conforming component, but Mr. Hicks provides no analysis giving any indication that the non-conformance yields an unsafe component. He makes an assumption the specification reflects functional safety based parameter with nothing but conjecture to back it up. Moving to 5 is where I’ll be honest, I get annoyed by the amount of ineptitude shown by the examiner and just how out of depth he is. He starts by showing a supposed mismatch is striker foot and sear face size. How much more the striker foot face extends above the sear face is entirely superfluous and it is very likely intentionally insured to be longer so deformation or manufacturing variance of the sear doesn’t yield a condition in which the sear would hook over the striker foot into the relief location. It’s as if the examiners only experience in sear engagement design is with an original positive engagement 1911 sear or simply believes that because the striker foot kinda looks like a hook, it should act like one. Followed by referring to .038” of sear and striker overlap as being minimal and at risk of disengagement. This is kind of an absurd statement on multiple fronts, A) he presents this as minimal when the reality is .038” of sear engagement and often even less is exceptionally common in firearms and in no way extraordinary on its own. B) he presents no evidence or analysis showing how far these components can move apart without trigger actuation to support it being extraordinary. He also ends up making simple English to metric conversion errors once again (seriously, fire your intern man or whoever proof reads your documents) Maybe I’ll get around to a part II of the review. But to be honest it continues about the same. Plenty of call outs of crappy engineering practices by sig (and they are crappy) and out of depth supposition of outputs from said practices (they made the part shitty, so it must also be unsafe.) but an entire lack of any empirical evidence or testing yielding the supposed failure or even simulated failure. It’s the engineering equivalent of an ad hominem hack piece, saying the equivalent of “Sig cheated on their wife, has 2 DUI’s, lied on their tax return, and kicked a puppy; so obviously they must have also killed neighbor’s dog. ETA. This is all to simply say, I think Sig makes some shitty engineering and manufacturing choices, but as much as I dislike them, I hate unethical “expert witnesses” and predatory lawfare even more. Quoted: Quoted: That report is pretty damning actually. Interesting that Sig is casting MIM and stamping parts like sears and safety components with no additional fitting or processing. You are obviously pretty invested in this and emotionally charged against the report. Do you have any rebut to their evidence or just a snarky attitude? It's pretty clear to summarize that sloppy manufacturing and quality control yielded a product with loose internal tolerances that when stacked, prevented proper operation of the design safety features. And Sig even tested and duplicated those circumstances. But Sig dindu nuffin ![]() But let’s go ahead and cross examine Mr. Hicks’ analysis of the p320 as presented. Statement 1 referring to the sear and striker being MIM components without secondary processing operations. Mr Hicks correctly points out that flashing, internal material shrinkage, required corner radii for molding and additional surface irregularity from the process can and (in his sample) does reduce contact surface between the sear and striker. This is shitty engineering on Sigs part from the standpoint of functional consistency unit to unit for things like trigger weight, feel, and long term wear characteristics, but reduction of surface contact does not equate to a failure to contact. In no way does he prove empirically or theoretically here that the sear would fail to retain the striker. He further goes into a dimensional analysis of the components in 4 against a partially supplied sig technical drawing in fig 8. First he admits the CT scan used to gather the empirical dimensional data was insufficient to qualify the values against the drawing. This is due to the scans used being unable to capture 3D geometric data. At best you could call them approximations which sure as hell is not what you should be using when trying to make conclusive statements. The first dimension falls within the tolerance zone for the sear nose radius. The radius for the striker foot is approximated to be .009” which exceeds the print call out of .002” max (0.05mm). The deviation value likely means the striker is a non-conforming component, but Mr. Hicks provides no analysis giving any indication that the non-conformance yields an unsafe component. He makes an assumption the specification reflects functional safety based parameter with nothing but conjecture to back it up. Moving to 5 is where I’ll be honest, I get annoyed by the amount of ineptitude shown by the examiner and just how out of depth he is. He starts by showing a supposed mismatch is striker foot and sear face size. How much more the striker foot face extends above the sear face is entirely superfluous and it is very likely intentionally insured to be longer so deformation or manufacturing variance of the sear doesn’t yield a condition in which the sear would hook over the striker foot into the relief location. It’s as if the examiners only experience in sear engagement design is with an original positive engagement 1911 sear or simply believes that because the striker foot kinda looks like a hook, it should act like one. Followed by referring to .038” of sear and striker overlap as being minimal and at risk of disengagement. This is kind of an absurd statement on multiple fronts, A) he presents this as minimal when the reality is .038” of sear engagement and often even less is exceptionally common in firearms and in no way extraordinary on its own. B) he presents no evidence or analysis showing how far these components can move apart without trigger actuation to support it being extraordinary. He also ends up making simple English to metric conversion errors once again (seriously, fire your intern man or whoever proof reads your documents) Maybe I’ll get around to a part II of the review. But to be honest it continues about the same. Plenty of call outs of crappy engineering practices by sig (and they are crappy) and out of depth supposition of outputs from said practices (they made the part shitty, so it must also be unsafe.) but an entire lack of any empirical evidence or testing yielding the supposed failure or even simulated failure. It’s the engineering equivalent of an ad hominem hack piece, saying the equivalent of “Sig cheated on their wife, has 2 DUI’s, lied on their tax return, and kicked a puppy; so obviously they must have also killed neighbor’s dog. ETA. This is all to simply say, I think Sig makes some shitty engineering and manufacturing choices, but as much as I dislike them, I hate unethical “expert witnesses” and predatory lawfare even more. How hard would it be to make the trigger pull a meaningful safety out of a striker with the safety *riding in or on the safety stop surface of the striker* using only the force of the trigger pull? Not an engineer. I have no idea how hard that would be to design. 100% understand if you don't want to risk an answer. |
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Quoted: LOL this is a product that's out in the world If it's soooooo pervasive one or more of them should be easily able to replicate it. Or you guys can just hate it but admit it, it's OK. |
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Quoted: sure about that? Go watch the video. Notice the 45+ minutes on ethics challenges. Shit, that's how Glock orginally won in the 80's 90's with PD's - strippers and parties for the right decision makers. You sure no favor wa curried? you sure the Army didn't just half ass for the much cheaper pistol? shit, go read on how they half assed the trials with beater M4's and random mags vs New oiled SCAR's Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Post a link to the PDF, I haven’t seen it and my Google-fu is failing me. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p/view?usp=drivesdk I’ve reviewed it ad nauseam, anyone with a technical background in the field and ounce of ethical impartiality would conclude it is a worthless assessment as far as conclusive evidence goes. It appeals to kitchen table engineers out of their depth and low information emotionally biased individuals with an axe to grind. Sig is handling this all childishly but simultaneously so are the accusers. The whole fiasco is a great “when assholes collide” situation further inflamed by the parties directly involved having substantial financial gain or loss potential. So, what financial gain does the military folks get that have accused Sig, ZERO. There are plenty of reports out there, go watch the video I posted earlier. sure about that? Go watch the video. Notice the 45+ minutes on ethics challenges. Shit, that's how Glock orginally won in the 80's 90's with PD's - strippers and parties for the right decision makers. You sure no favor wa curried? you sure the Army didn't just half ass for the much cheaper pistol? shit, go read on how they half assed the trials with beater M4's and random mags vs New oiled SCAR's WTF, are you talking about? I'm talking about the E3s, Security Police, and E4s that were wearing pistols that went off in their holsters. I'm well aware a General got placed on the SIG payroll after he retired and has been pushing inferior products onto the US Army. |
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Quoted: WTF, are you talking about? I'm talking about the E3s, Security Police, and E4s that were wearing pistols that went off in their holsters. I'm well aware a General got placed on the SIG payroll after he retired and has been pushing inferior products onto the US Army. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Post a link to the PDF, I haven’t seen it and my Google-fu is failing me. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1XCGiOsP9aymOaEKg6pLSObYXM9tRBv4p/view?usp=drivesdk I’ve reviewed it ad nauseam, anyone with a technical background in the field and ounce of ethical impartiality would conclude it is a worthless assessment as far as conclusive evidence goes. It appeals to kitchen table engineers out of their depth and low information emotionally biased individuals with an axe to grind. Sig is handling this all childishly but simultaneously so are the accusers. The whole fiasco is a great “when assholes collide” situation further inflamed by the parties directly involved having substantial financial gain or loss potential. So, what financial gain does the military folks get that have accused Sig, ZERO. There are plenty of reports out there, go watch the video I posted earlier. sure about that? Go watch the video. Notice the 45+ minutes on ethics challenges. Shit, that's how Glock orginally won in the 80's 90's with PD's - strippers and parties for the right decision makers. You sure no favor wa curried? you sure the Army didn't just half ass for the much cheaper pistol? shit, go read on how they half assed the trials with beater M4's and random mags vs New oiled SCAR's WTF, are you talking about? I'm talking about the E3s, Security Police, and E4s that were wearing pistols that went off in their holsters. I'm well aware a General got placed on the SIG payroll after he retired and has been pushing inferior products onto the US Army. wups - appologies @pr24guy, I misread and thought you were implying the opposite. Hmm, how about that - this will be your only WTF for 2025 you will get a "well shit my bad" |

. It was easily replicated and there are a hundred videos of it happening. Why do you think they offered to fix the pistols that were out there already?


. I would highly recommend it, I can’t say enough good things about the Raider!