[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 98 of 142)
|
Quoted: I don't understand why Sig has not come up with a fix at this point. They have know this has been a problem for a while now! A lot of people have tried to understand how the P320 mechanism fails. No one has published an answer. It may well be that SIG doesn't know how the P320 is failing, only that it is. And a significant redesign and recall runs a significant risk of bankruptcy - so they were trying to just bury the problem in statistical noise - but a dead US servicemember isn't going to allow them to do that. |
|
Quoted: I'm pretty sure my LGS has done the same. They used to sell a good number of P320s. People asked for them, and indecisive customers could get interested simply by saying "this is the Army's new service pistol." P320 sales were already in decline, but the "it ends today" social media campaign legit killed them. There are two new P320s left in stock, and both have been sitting there since before it ended. Nobody asks for them, and nobody suggests them. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think we're far from this happening. If an average Joe buys a P320 in, let's say September 2025, and then he experiences a UD, the conditions might exist where a lawyer could articulate that the retailer that sold him the gun should have known about the problems with the P320, and they never should have recommended one to a customer. FFLs that want to protect themselves should probably stop selling P320s entirely or require customers to sign a waiver when they do the 4473. I just act like they don't exist. Customer: Hey, I'd like to see some different guns to buy. Me: Sure! Here are some S&Ws, Berettas, Rugers, Taurus,a few HKs....and uhhh....some Springfields, Walthers, Glocks.. I'm pretty sure my LGS has done the same. They used to sell a good number of P320s. People asked for them, and indecisive customers could get interested simply by saying "this is the Army's new service pistol." P320 sales were already in decline, but the "it ends today" social media campaign legit killed them. There are two new P320s left in stock, and both have been sitting there since before it ended. Nobody asks for them, and nobody suggests them. Same at my dealer. P365s go out the door quickly, but P320s are building up and going nowhere. My dealer is still acting as if the problem is overblown, but I think there’s nothing he can do to move them. |
|
Quoted: How long until Academy Sports and Bass Pro pull them? That has to be some liability exposure at this point. One class action lawsuit away. It doesn't matter anymore if that gun is safe or not. It's like being a catholic priest, everyone assumes you're gay or a child molester. The Sig 320 is listed on the Epstein files, whether it's actually a thing or not. Doesn't matter. It's all on Sig. It's stained. Anyone taking up for the 320 will get lumped into the "paid shill" group. I don't know if it's fixable. If they issued a recall tomorrow, I doubt it could be fixed. Pull and trash the whole "fire control unit". Poly grip "frame", slide and barrel are probably still good. But the fire control unit has the serial number, so as far as the ATF is concerned, you just gave everyone a new gun. More paperwork, more transfer fees. Woohoo - let's hear it for modularity. I'm glad it's not my problem. |
|
Quoted: A lot of people have tried to understand how the P320 mechanism fails. No one has published an answer. It may well be that SIG doesn't know how the P320 is failing, only that it is. And a significant redesign and recall runs a significant risk of bankruptcy - so they were trying to just bury the problem in statistical noise - but a dead US servicemember isn't going to allow them to do that. Quoted: Quoted: I don't understand why Sig has not come up with a fix at this point. They have know this has been a problem for a while now! A lot of people have tried to understand how the P320 mechanism fails. No one has published an answer. It may well be that SIG doesn't know how the P320 is failing, only that it is. And a significant redesign and recall runs a significant risk of bankruptcy - so they were trying to just bury the problem in statistical noise - but a dead US servicemember isn't going to allow them to do that. We know the striker block design is dildos, we know that it has at least three different paths for failure, we know that those failures are happening in the real world, and we know Sig chose a completely different and more conventional design of that system on the P365. That's enough in my book. The sear failures are being treated like a bigger mystery than they are. Tight tolerances, cheap parts, occasional mistakes in assembly, and loose QC are a bad combo. The people denying this are the same people that were in denial when P320 discharges could be easily replicated by tapping the guns with a mallet. |
|
Quoted: It's a shame the Airman lost his life. May he RIP. If SIG is found to be at fault because of the P320/M18, then SIG should pay and get what's deserved. However until the investigation is complete, throwing the blame on the M18 seems a bit premature. I hope the Air Force can conclude what indeed is the root cause of death, and hold the parties responsible accountable. I personally will stop trusting my P320's when they let me down, not when the echo chamber says to. It’s a “shame” that an airman lost his life. Really? A shame. A service member, a man who swore to defend our country, is not going home to his family. While to some this may seem like an innocent statement, you post almost exclusively Sig content across multiple gun forums. You’re clearly in the “I own Sig so I’m gonna defend the brand” or you work for Sig. Your condolences ring hollow as hell since you go right into defending the P320. You should reevaluate your brand loyalty stance. Also, the difference between the military or police who are issued the P320 is they don’t have a choice in what they carry unlike a civilian. Mil / police are relying on their chain of command. People on gun forums tend to have more information / interest in guns. The airman may have had no idea about the accusations surrounding the P320. As for the premature conclusion BS… it works both ways. Several body cameras have captured p320 discharges. Sig assumes something in the holster like a key or the safairland holster made it go off. Yet there’s no evidence of that either. Sigs Montville PD response is a great one to look at. Here’s the link still up on their website Sig Response Sig says the pistol isn’t in the holster and the hood isn’t up. That’s a tourniquet and in the BWC you can clearly see the p320 was seated in the holster with the hood up. Sig was completely wrong in their evaluation of the p320 holster condition prior to the uncommanded discharge. Then Sig continued to speculate that magically a foreign object from the other officer did it. That’s not to even bring in the BRF report. The talking point for the p320 defenders is criss cross applesauce make it go bang anytime or we don’t want to hear it. That’s the lowest IQ argument for gun safety I can think of. The p320 started out using a p250 frame on a fully cocked striker with a light trigger and no external safety. Soon, it was found to not be drop safe. Since then it has been plagued by accusations. The burden at some point falls on Sig. I think we are to that point. You can choose to keep carrying your Sig firearms. But as for military and LE; we are having a different discussion. Any risk of a pistol having an uncommanded discharge is unacceptable. |
|
Quoted: I don't understand why Sig has not come up with a fix at this point. They have know this has been a problem for a while now! It truly is sinister. Sig has backed themselves into a corner. In order for them to come up with a solution, they have to admit there’s a problem. They repeatedly denied problem in court, so to come out now would cause not only financial problems but possible perjury charges. Remember that they have not even acknowledged the ability of a 320 to fire when dropped. That was a voluntary upgrade and not a recall. Most of us knew it was only a matter time before a police officer, or servicemen, lost their life, and sadly I would venture that it’s only a matter of time before an innocent person, or a child loses their life. Sig truly is an evil company. |
|
Quoted: Time to start firing up the forges: https://gunsweek.b-cdn.net/sites/default/files/archive/contents/pistols/articles/colt-m45a1-cqbp-semi-automatic-pistol/Colt_M45A1_USMC_FDE_3.JPG That'd be winning |
|
Quoted: I think the old Glock fanboys vs. SIG fanboys argument has been definitively settled. Attached File |
|
Quoted: It truly is sinister. Sig has backed themselves into a corner. In order for them to come up with a solution, they have to admit there’s a problem. They repeatedly denied problem in court, so to come out now would cause not only financial problems but possible perjury charges. Remember that they have not even acknowledged the ability of a 320 to fire when dropped. That was a voluntary upgrade and not a recall. Most of us knew it was only a matter time before a police officer, or servicemen, lost their life, and sadly I would venture that it’s only a matter of time before an innocent person, or a child loses their life. Sig truly is an evil company. Quoted: Quoted: I don't understand why Sig has not come up with a fix at this point. They have know this has been a problem for a while now! It truly is sinister. Sig has backed themselves into a corner. In order for them to come up with a solution, they have to admit there’s a problem. They repeatedly denied problem in court, so to come out now would cause not only financial problems but possible perjury charges. Remember that they have not even acknowledged the ability of a 320 to fire when dropped. That was a voluntary upgrade and not a recall. Most of us knew it was only a matter time before a police officer, or servicemen, lost their life, and sadly I would venture that it’s only a matter of time before an innocent person, or a child loses their life. Sig truly is an evil company. Anyone who defended Sig and didn’t see that they were a dog shit company lead by a downright sinister man after the original “fires when dropped” 320 issues is either retarded or a paid shill. The fact the 320 had yet another MAJOR safety issue after that initial fuckup that has killed and maimed people is downright criminal. Ron Cohen deserves prison time. |
|
Quoted: Same at my dealer. P365s go out the door quickly, but P320s are building up and going nowhere. My dealer is still acting as if the problem is overblown, but I think there’s nothing he can do to move them. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't think we're far from this happening. If an average Joe buys a P320 in, let's say September 2025, and then he experiences a UD, the conditions might exist where a lawyer could articulate that the retailer that sold him the gun should have known about the problems with the P320, and they never should have recommended one to a customer. FFLs that want to protect themselves should probably stop selling P320s entirely or require customers to sign a waiver when they do the 4473. I just act like they don't exist. Customer: Hey, I'd like to see some different guns to buy. Me: Sure! Here are some S&Ws, Berettas, Rugers, Taurus,a few HKs....and uhhh....some Springfields, Walthers, Glocks.. I'm pretty sure my LGS has done the same. They used to sell a good number of P320s. People asked for them, and indecisive customers could get interested simply by saying "this is the Army's new service pistol." P320 sales were already in decline, but the "it ends today" social media campaign legit killed them. There are two new P320s left in stock, and both have been sitting there since before it ended. Nobody asks for them, and nobody suggests them. Same at my dealer. P365s go out the door quickly, but P320s are building up and going nowhere. My dealer is still acting as if the problem is overblown, but I think there’s nothing he can do to move them. Looking at used M17’s and M18’s on gunbroker, most have sold in the $400-500 mark. Used Glock 19 gen 5’s are going for around the same price used. Comparatively, the M18 retails for around $100 more than a G19 gen 5, so it does seem demand for the Sig is dropping off. |
|
Quoted: It truly is sinister. Sig has backed themselves into a corner. In order for them to come up with a solution, they have to admit there’s a problem. They repeatedly denied problem in court, so to come out now would cause not only financial problems but possible perjury charges. Remember that they have not even acknowledged the ability of a 320 to fire when dropped. That was a voluntary upgrade and not a recall. Most of us knew it was only a matter time before a police officer, or servicemen, lost their life, and sadly I would venture that it’s only a matter of time before an innocent person, or a child loses their life. Sig truly is an evil company. This, all the comments about well I’ll just buy a P365 instead. No don’t buy anything from those SOBs. They have blood on their hands. People’s lives have been forever changed. |
|
Sig stock is gonna be at all time low soon |
|
Quoted: Sig stock is gonna be at all time low soon Quoted: Sig stock is gonna be at all time low soon Boy what a dick move from Sig . |
|
Quoted: Boy what a dick move from Sig . Quoted: Quoted: Sig stock is gonna be at all time low soon Boy what a dick move from Sig . I don't speak legal But I don't see where sig is alleging a contract was breached Just ma feels If true. Bot good standing and huge dick move |
|
Quoted: Boy what a dick move from Sig . Quoted: Quoted: Sig stock is gonna be at all time low soon Boy what a dick move from Sig . Wow they really should’ve figured on delaying that lawsuit a bit. Their PR team’s incompetence continues to amaze me… |
|
Quoted: Wow they really should’ve figured on delaying that lawsuit a bit. Their PR team’s incompetence continues to amaze me… Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sig stock is gonna be at all time low soon Boy what a dick move from Sig . Wow they really should’ve figured on delaying that lawsuit a bit. Their PR team’s incompetence continues to amaze me… Legal harassment to silence people while fatalities are occurring. That's quite a plan. Then again, what options are left to SIG at this point? If I were at that company, I would have an exit plan so fast that would have former Titan Submarine employees impressed. |
|
Quoted: Looking at used M17’s and M18’s on gunbroker, most have sold in the $400-500 mark. Used Glock 19 gen 5’s are going for around the same price used. Comparatively, the M18 retails for around $100 more than a G19 gen 5, so it does seem demand for the Sig is dropping off. $400-$500 is what deniers or people who don’t know about the issue pay Once the knowledge becomes more widespread you can drop that figure substantially. I recently told a guy on my church team about the issues with the P320. He had no idea, but I sent him some links and now he has a PDP. |
|
Quoted: Legal harassment to silence people while fatalities are occurring. That's quite a plan. Then again, what options are left to SIG at this point? If I were at that company, I would have an exit plan so fast that would have former Titan Submarine employees impressed. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Sig stock is gonna be at all time low soon Boy what a dick move from Sig . Wow they really should’ve figured on delaying that lawsuit a bit. Their PR team’s incompetence continues to amaze me… Legal harassment to silence people while fatalities are occurring. That's quite a plan. Then again, what options are left to SIG at this point? If I were at that company, I would have an exit plan so fast that would have former Titan Submarine employees impressed. Re-reading the article, actually sig filed the lawsuit in June. It looks like the news station revived it in light of the Air Force situation. Still, it’s not a great look but not quite as bad as if they filed it today |
|
Quoted: $400-$500 is what deniers or people who don’t know about the issue pay Once the knowledge becomes more widespread you can drop that figure substantially. I recently told a guy on my church team about the issues with the P320. He had no idea, but I sent him some links and now he has a PDP. Quoted: Quoted: Looking at used M17’s and M18’s on gunbroker, most have sold in the $400-500 mark. Used Glock 19 gen 5’s are going for around the same price used. Comparatively, the M18 retails for around $100 more than a G19 gen 5, so it does seem demand for the Sig is dropping off. $400-$500 is what deniers or people who don’t know about the issue pay Once the knowledge becomes more widespread you can drop that figure substantially. I recently told a guy on my church team about the issues with the P320. He had no idea, but I sent him some links and now he has a PDP. That’s true. Also I was mainly looking at used m18 and m17 prices. I think these will always be a bit inflated for collectibility because everyone wants what the military issues. Looking at regular p320’s, used ones are selling for like around $300. Some even under $300. That’s pretty bad |
|
Quoted: A lot of people have tried to understand how the P320 mechanism fails. No one has published an answer. It may well be that SIG doesn't know how the P320 is failing, only that it is. And a significant redesign and recall runs a significant risk of bankruptcy - so they were trying to just bury the problem in statistical noise - but a dead US servicemember isn't going to allow them to do that. The idea that a recall would be too expense reminds me of a dump truck company that deferred preventative maintenance because it was too expensive. They then let their insurance lapse for the same reason. Care to guess what happened? |
|
Quoted: The idea that a recall would be too expense reminds me of a dump truck company that deferred preventative maintenance because it was too expensive. They then let their insurance lapse for the same reason. Care to guess what happened? They hired generals and got Military vehicle contracts? |
|
Quoted: One for each day? What does the Sunday Formal one look like?  Quoted: Quoted: I have seven P365s. I still trust that gun and carry one daily. One for each day? What does the Sunday Formal one look like? Sunday is for wearing all seven at once draped cross body / over the shoulder like Blackbeard. |
|
Quoted: What? You didnt like diamond plate and neochrome slides?? Quoted: What? You didnt like diamond plate and neochrome slides?? It's even  Quoted: Interesting that more and more training groups are saying “we aren’t allowing P320s in classes anymore”. Soon SIG won’t be able to ignore the uproar and will have to do something. Received emails from several ranges as well as scheduled matches in my area banning all 320 variants as of today 
|
|
Quoted: Same at my dealer. P365s go out the door quickly, but P320s are building up and going nowhere. My dealer is still acting as if the problem is overblown, but I think there’s nothing he can do to move them. I went in to a LGS yesterday to get an improved 320 aka a Ruger RXM and noticed all the 320s, except 1 M17, were gone from the cases. |
|
Quoted: It's even https://distortion.io/i/IMG_5198.jpg That's not devolution, that's progress. Lifestyle marketing sells all manner of goods and services with incredible profits. And Sig is more profitable now than it has ever been. Getting people from more "mainstream' endeavors to collab with a gun company is actually pretty good. It's easier to sell hardcore pornography and illegal drugs than guns and gun accessories through mainstream channels, so getting someone semi-famous to collab is actually pretty good from a marketing standpoint. Sig is killing it with their marketing, folks. If only they weren't also killing/maiming Sig users in the process... I hate lifestyle marketing as much as anyone, but it's what all marketing is going to be for at least another decade and a half. Get used to it. It's gross and I hate it but it's not going anywhere. Could resources spent pursuing silly marketing shit like tattoo ink engraved slides have been better spent making a safe, reliable product? Well...I guess we'll find out, won't we. There's already plenty of lifestyle marketing customers who are ready to insult the womb that bore you for insulting their shitty handgun so I'm not sure you can count Cohen's strategy out just yet. |
|
Quoted: At this point, Sig even loses against the HiPoint Yeet Cannon. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I think the old Glock fanboys vs. SIG fanboys argument has been definitively settled. Who won? Sorry haven't been keeping track. Be careful - adults are talking and they don't like SIGs rating lower than HiPoints. |
|
I own one Sig....actually my wife owns it, a P238, she likes it, and since it's a 1911 design...it won't shoot itself. Attached File |
|
Yea that'll help. Seriously how dumb does SIG have to be at this point. Maybe it's panic mode, but it's like they're trying to make things worse. |
 Discovery in the case is going to be ... fun. Eat them alive, boys. |
|
Quoted: I went in to a LGS yesterday to get an improved 320 aka a Ruger RXM and noticed all the 320s, except 1 M17, were gone from the cases. The Ruger, if everything is as good as it appears is not only the improved 320 but also the improved Glock. But it is still a striker fired gun. |
|
Quoted: Yes, Honor is the primary personality trait that I would attribute to the individuals who picked sigs shit pistol and silly rifle in exchange for a cushy paycheck immediately after they retired Quoted: Quoted: I'll assume the retired GOs who work for Sig are currently going hands on with Sig leadership behind closed doors over this, demanding a public accounting and a plan to wind down this product. If they're not, they have no honor. So I'll assume they're doing the right thing. Yes, Honor is the primary personality trait that I would attribute to the individuals who picked sigs shit pistol and silly rifle in exchange for a cushy paycheck immediately after they retired Attached File To pretend that SIG is making the best products and earned those contracts on their own merits has always been silly and numerous people have said so. Shills pooh pood it. |
|
Quoted: It’s a “shame” that an airman lost his life. Really? A shame. A service member, a man who swore to defend our country, is not going home to his family. While to some this may seem like an innocent statement, you post almost exclusively Sig content across multiple gun forums. You’re clearly in the “I own Sig so I’m gonna defend the brand” or you work for Sig. Your condolences ring hollow as hell since you go right into defending the P320. You should reevaluate your brand loyalty stance. Also, the difference between the military or police who are issued the P320 is they don’t have a choice in what they carry unlike a civilian. Mil / police are relying on their chain of command. People on gun forums tend to have more information / interest in guns. The airman may have had no idea about the accusations surrounding the P320. As for the premature conclusion BS… it works both ways. Several body cameras have captured p320 discharges. Sig assumes something in the holster like a key or the safairland holster made it go off. Yet there’s no evidence of that either. Sigs Montville PD response is a great one to look at. Here’s the link still up on their website Sig Response Sig says the pistol isn’t in the holster and the hood isn’t up. That’s a tourniquet and in the BWC you can clearly see the p320 was seated in the holster with the hood up. Sig was completely wrong in their evaluation of the p320 holster condition prior to the uncommanded discharge. Then Sig continued to speculate that magically a foreign object from the other officer did it. That’s not to even bring in the BRF report. The talking point for the p320 defenders is criss cross applesauce make it go bang anytime or we don’t want to hear it. That’s the lowest IQ argument for gun safety I can think of. The p320 started out using a p250 frame on a fully cocked striker with a light trigger and no external safety. Soon, it was found to not be drop safe. Since then it has been plagued by accusations. The burden at some point falls on Sig. I think we are to that point. You can choose to keep carrying your Sig firearms. But as for military and LE; we are having a different discussion. Any risk of a pistol having an uncommanded discharge is unacceptable. I'm not going to get into whether my sympathy towards the situation and the tragic death of the Airman is good enough for you or not. That would be pointless. We can just agree to disagree. I remain steadfast on how I feel, and yes it's a shame he is no longer with us and I can only hope the Air Force finds the responsible party, and holds them accountable to the fullest extent. You riding along on your high horse like there is damning evidence the P320 definitively killed the Airman, frankly blows my mind. I didn't think the direct Cause of Death has been established yet, has it? If the SIG is the culprit, than SIG deserves all the punishment it has coming. When that day comes, then I will be disappointed in SIG and look for some new guns. I don't think we are there yet. Why you'd Gaslight like you don't have a choice is funny to me. Quit your job if your a cop or take the ARTY or request the Court Marshall and get separated. They'll vindicate you like they did those that chose separation over the shot, but you got to be able to put your money where your mouth is and stop hoping the echo chamber will do it for you! Back in the day when I was Active Duty I never did anything I didn't want to. If I felt the way you did about the P320 I would definitely hold my line, not tow theirs and carry it! Now you getting worked up because I don't want to rush to assume or accuse without hearing the facts is not my problem. If there was damning evidence maybe I would be convinced but my apologies for not believing in your Bigfoot bro. Since you've done some homework about me before typing, allow me to do the rest.... No, I do not work for SIG but I probably would if given the opportunity. We have had a long and good relationship. They've never let me down and they've gone above and beyond for me. If there's a chance at cleaning up this mess, I would love to be on the clean up team. I'm confident they'd call me the Winston Wolf if they brought me in! Do I post about SIG? Yes, I post about the models I own and the things I like about them. Not to uncommon in a gun forum I would think. Many here are just upset I still have SIG's back but I don't just fold like the masses when I believe in something, so stop being upset and let it go, you don't have to understand my loyalty just like I can't get you to understand how they've earned it throughout the years. Oh and I tend to support those that support me, regardless of their popularity. Fortunately for me, my P320's haven't shot me yet and the other 14 SIG's I own haven't had this issue, but give it time and the echo chamber here will grow to consume every SIG, and your brand will be next. Or my SIG will shoot my dick off, right. Either outcome will be much deserved for whoever is wrong. Personally I hope I'm wrong and you're right... That would mean there's just a few of us loyalist idiots instead of many of you believe it all, Me too idiots! One way or another, the unfortunate death of the Airman has polarized this issue way more than a debate in ARFCOM so I'm curious to see where this goes now. In WA State it will be hard to dig myself out of the SIG hole, but anything is possible just like a SIG shooting by itself so I remain open minded but unconvinced. Just deal with it! Doesn't mean I'm more or less American or lacking of empathy, just means I am not convinced. |
 Did the SIG P320 Just Kill a U.S. Airman Without Anyone Pulling the Trigger? |
|
Quoted: Sig clearly intends to keep the 320 in their catalog, with no sales, until they can quietly discontinue it in 3-4 years. It’s a completely sociopathic approach and I hope the market punishes them appropriately. What do you think they are going to do with the 180,000 that they froze shipment on? |
|
I don’t get it. I understand Sig is in an unprecedented situation. This issue very well could end company, but I feel like the precedent set by other “unprecedented situations” is that “deny, deny, deny” is not the play. I never cared for Sigs, so I don’t know much about their products or why “FRC(?)” is a thing(like was the dislike for this guy was before this situation?). It seems like they had enough good products to at least sustain the company while they actively try to figure this issue out? If they were to just come out and say “yeah there’s an issue with P320/M17/M18 and we are trying to figure it out”, would their other sales have kept them afloat even if they had to dump a majority of their government contract into actually fixing the issue? It’s very clearly too late for that, but that just seems like what they should have done from the get go. I know, I know… corporate greed and all that, but damn, just nut up, be honest, and accept the fact that the next few years are going to be rough on the company. Again, they have a pedigree. this contract wasn’t their ticket to the big boys table or anything. Just my thoughts, whatever they are worth |