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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:05:03 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the gun has a high magnification scope and wind resistant bullet, you don’t need to suppress them. With something like an MG-338, you should be able to hit and kill anyone you can see within 1000m. Maybe I’m overestimating the precision it’s capable of, but an imprecise gun would completely waste the cartridge’s ballistic capabilities. Yet machineguns are used against things that can’t be seen or might not be there. A machinegun is what you would use to prevent anyone from occupying a tree line or house or crossing a street. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:07:30 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yet machineguns are used against things that can’t be seen or might not be there. A machinegun is what you would use to prevent anyone from occupying a tree line or house or crossing a street. To be clear, I’m talking about a scope with a 15-25x max magnification, or maybe even infrared. The point is to be able to see whether or not there’s a valid target. Otherwise yeah, the cartridge is wasted. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:13:37 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To be clear, I’m talking about a scope with a 15-25x max magnification, or maybe even infrared. The point is to be able to see whether or not there’s a valid target. Otherwise yeah, the cartridge is wasted. The Brit’s use spotting scopes to direct MG fire. Everyone uses binoculars. It’s an area weapon at heart. Most fire is used to suppress known, likely or suspected enemy positions. If you can see them and kill them that’s great too. But ammunition consumption is high. So calibers need to be smaller than 338. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:16:09 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: If the gun has a high magnification scope and wind resistant bullet, you don’t need to suppress them. With something like an MG-338, you should be able to hit and kill anyone you can see within 1000m. Maybe I’m overestimating the precision it’s capable of, but an imprecise gun would completely waste the cartridge’s ballistic capabilities. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Machineguns are used to suppress, no? Suppression is measured in time, which generates another figure of pounds of ammunition expenditure per minute. Are you really going to support a fire team rush with a 338? Get that shit at company or better yet battalion. If the gun has a high magnification scope and wind resistant bullet, you don’t need to suppress them. With something like an MG-338, you should be able to hit and kill anyone you can see within 1000m. Maybe I’m overestimating the precision it’s capable of, but an imprecise gun would completely waste the cartridge’s ballistic capabilities. The enemy takes cover, shoots back, and you dont know exactly where they are anyway. None of that is affected by the inherent accuracy of the MG |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:17:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I think 277 Fury is infinitely better than 762 moving forward if only for it's BC and sectional density to carry it's velocity further than 762 can, but you could achieve the same capability with something like a 6.5 creedmoor though the barrel would need to be longer to get similar ballistics. I don't think the muzzle velocity juice is going to be worth the squeeze of barrel life and broken bolts when those rifles start to get run hard. Integrating a fancy new optic with a rangefinder that makes longer range dope easier and then simultaneously adopting a cartridge that pushes 80,000 PSI chamber pressure to shoot flatter. The rangefinder should have been sufficient. You are going to be holding or dialing for that kind of elevation, it doesn't really matter much if you hold a little more so long as you know the proper correction. I don't think the additional energy is worth the penalties personally. Maybe every barrel will have a stellite liner. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:23:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The Brit’s use spotting scopes to direct MG fire. Everyone uses binoculars. It’s an area weapon at heart. Most fire is used to suppress known, likely or suspected enemy positions. If you can see them and kill them that’s great too. But ammunition consumption is high. So calibers need to be smaller than 338. That probably has something to do with the fact that they deploy FN MAGs at the section level, much like I’m suggesting here with the MG338. Typical binoculars aren’t going to match a spotting scope or high mag rifle scope. https://www.battleorder.org/british-rifle-platoon-2019 If you can’t identify targets within your expected shooting envelope, you don’t have enough glass. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:31:59 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The enemy takes cover, shoots back, and you dont know exactly where they are anyway. None of that is affected by the inherent accuracy of the MG Inherent accuracy could be the difference between a hit that neutralizes them and a miss that sends them into cover |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:34:00 PM EDT
[#8]
The point is, a 338 belongs in the battalion, not the squad. Shooting a 338 at 30m to execute a rush is dumb.
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:34:23 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The enemy takes cover, shoots back, and you dont know exactly where they are anyway. None of that is affected by the inherent accuracy of the MG Inherent accuracy could be the difference between a hit that neutralizes them and a miss that sends them into cover |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:37:31 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The point is, a 338 belongs in the battalion, not the squad. Shooting a 338 at 30m to execute a rush is dumb. That’d indicate a serious tactical error on the part of the gunner. Remember that this assumed a larger 12-man squad, with 9-10 M4-armed riflemen. Adding an MG-338 to a 9-man squad would create a lot of issues. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:42:47 PM EDT
[#11]
Adding him to any squad except in a weapons platoon would be dumb.
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:46:29 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Get one. You will love it. Even if they drop it, they commit to repairs and warranty anyhow. Love mine. They don't commit to the Warranty of a Sig 556 or even getting parts. Talk about dropping the ball HARD. Sig320 debacle is twisted. I'm done with Sig. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 7:54:02 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Why are we going back to a battle rifle? Armored land drones aka terminators. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 8:07:50 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Inherent accuracy could be the difference between a hit that neutralizes them and a miss that sends them into cover Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The enemy takes cover, shoots back, and you dont know exactly where they are anyway. None of that is affected by the inherent accuracy of the MG Inherent accuracy could be the difference between a hit that neutralizes them and a miss that sends them into cover Just because you've moved to an accurate 338 doesn’t mean you're going to hit someone sprinting from cover to cover at extended range |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 8:10:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Only read this page I'm posting on for this thread so far.
Other than the typical autistic screeching on this subject and unwinnable arguing over what someone is thinking about it, that absolutely won't change anything other than being seen as an argumentative ass, will this be completely replacing the M4 entirely? |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 8:15:15 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Only read this page I'm posting on for this thread so far. Other than the typical autistic screeching on this subject and unwinnable arguing over what someone is thinking about it, that absolutely won't change anything other than being seen as an argumentative ass, will this be completely replacing the M4 entirely? Maybe. It was selected to undergo more testing, not adoption |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 8:23:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Maybe. It was selected to undergo more testing, not adoption Thanks. Was this a sole competitor based competition even? |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 8:32:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Thanks. Was this a sole competitor based competition even? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Maybe. It was selected to undergo more testing, not adoption Thanks. Was this a sole competitor based competition even? It beat out 2 other solutions from other manufacturers to get to where it is now. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 8:39:39 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Adding him to any squad except in a weapons platoon would be dumb. Im not sure a 338 really fits anywhere. Its too big to replace the GPMG and too small to replace the M2, and I dont think another machine gun is needed in the armory. In my perfect world, if it was scaled and beefed up to 375/400 it could take over as for the M2; then the NGSW would replace the 240, and a 6mm NGSW lite would replace the 249, with all 3 using polymer cased ammo |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:00:54 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 20 million over 10 years for a prototype and testing. It is nowhere near replacing anything. The contract is certainly not for fielding a main line battle rifle or LMG. The contract is 4.7 Billion dollars over 10 years for up to 250,000 rifles. The initial order of $20 million is for 40 guns, 25 M5s, 15 M250s and a boatload of ammo. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:00:55 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im not sure a 338 really fits anywhere. Its too big to replace the GPMG and too small to replace the M2, and I dont think another machine gun is needed in the armory. In my perfect world, if it was scaled and beefed up to 375/400 it could take over as for the M2; then the NGSW would replace the 240, and a 6mm NGSW lite would replace the 249, with all 3 using polymer cased ammo Mostly agree except that a 338 would be useful on vehicles and replacing man carried M2s. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:01:50 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Mostly agree except that a 338 would be useful on vehicles and replacing man carried M2s. Man carried M2? Sucks to be that guy. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:01:55 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im not sure a 338 really fits anywhere. Its too big to replace the GPMG and too small to replace the M2, and I dont think another machine gun is needed in the armory. In my perfect world, if it was scaled and beefed up to 375/400 it could take over as for the M2; then the NGSW would replace the 240, and a 6mm NGSW lite would replace the 249, with all 3 using polymer cased ammo Have they solved the heat issue with polymer cased ammo? |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:04:28 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Have they solved the heat issue with polymer cased ammo? Yeah. Turns out plastic cases don’t transmit heat to the barrel. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:11:33 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah. Turns out plastic cases don’t transmit heat to the barrel. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Have they solved the heat issue with polymer cased ammo? Yeah. Turns out plastic cases don’t transmit heat to the barrel. Interesting. I guess using polymer as an insulator instead of using brass as a heat sink does make some sense. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:15:50 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Man carried M2? Sucks to be that guy. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Mostly agree except that a 338 would be useful on vehicles and replacing man carried M2s. Man carried M2? Sucks to be that guy. We once carried a mk19 on a patrol in AFG to set up a position  It was strapped to the back of a ruck and passed around a lot 
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:18:19 PM EDT
[#27]
“Sig all the things”
~US Army (probably) |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:34:08 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Im not sure a 338 really fits anywhere. Its too big to replace the GPMG and too small to replace the M2, and I dont think another machine gun is needed in the armory. In my perfect world, if it was scaled and beefed up to 375/400 it could take over as for the M2; then the NGSW would replace the 240, and a 6mm NGSW lite would replace the 249, with all 3 using polymer cased ammo 338 can shred trucks as well as anything, but it has the inherent accuracy to hit point targets with first burst effects at 1800M. I've been saying that the 408 CheyTac is a great MG cartridge for close to 15 years. Way too heavy for dismounted use, even with a plastic case. I doubt that NGSW will tick along for 500,000 rounds like the M240 will. Just get the Barrett receiver for weight savings and chamber it in 6.8 TVC (135 at 3,000). I'm pretty indifferent to the SAW in general, the only unit I was in that had them would have been better off with more mounted M240s and M2s rather than three SAWs. If you want to save a bunch of weight use the M240 at 20 pounds with plastic cased ammo that is two pounds per hundred lighter (so like 40 pounds per gun team). If the infantry guys want the SAW then good for them, the only time I was in a unit that had them they were assigned to Fire Direction Centers in M1068s. I would rather have an M240 on the top of the track than a dude running around with a stupid SAW. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:36:49 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This seems like the best option, don't the french have some tiny lightweight mortar? They have a 10 pounds 50mm mortar that has a 15 meter bursting radius. And it's nearly silent because it uses a captured piston. They use it as a squad mortar. The Brits had a 2" mortar that they dumped for the 40mm grenade launcher, then they ran out and bought a 60mm commando mortar but it was too heavy for the squad, should have been a platoon mortar at that weight. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 9:38:31 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The MG-338’s accuracy should mean that you don’t need to spend as much time firing, since you can hit long distance targets quicker. If one’s going to add weight to increase effective range, it’s better not to compromise the close in effectiveness of the M4s and concentrate it in long range weapons. Otherwise, everyone gets heavier. If there’s no deficiency in effective range that needs to be corrected, the whole project is pointless and nobody should get extra weight. That’s probably the case. I was never an infantryman but the single most important thing I learned at Building 4 is that machine guns are not used the way you think they are. If your assault is going to last 20 minutes, you want to be able to talk guns for 20 minutes. When you calculate that much ammo that takes, and what it weighs, your knees will start to ache just thinking about it. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:10:00 PM EDT
[#31]
We had a new captain that threw a hissy fit when he saw 4 of the M60 gunners on the range. We had new automatic reset targets out to 500 meters. We were having fun. Shooting 6 to 9 round bursts was a waste of ammunition for us. We were only able to fire 200 rounds each. Third year on the pig for me and more for the other gunners. We had the target knocked down in 2 to 3 rounds and were racking up good hits out to the 500 meter line. So Newby came over cursing saying that's not how to do it. Got a belt loaded the pig and said all targets up 100 to 500 meters out. He ran through 100 rounds pretty quickly and after the dust settled 5 targets were still up. He said that is how you shoot a machine gun. I said no that's how you waste ammunition. I could have knocked them all down with about 30 rounds. You shot 100 rounds and 5 enemy are still shooting back at you.
Well he cursed some more and stomped off the range. We split up the ammunition we had left since he wasted 100 of our rounds and all still qualified expert. So much for gentlemen. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:16:27 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The contract is 4.7 Billion dollars over 10 years for up to 250,000 rifles. The initial order of $20 million is for 40 guns, 25 M5s, 15 M250s and a boatload of ammo. Hopefully that is where this idiocy ends. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:23:15 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Being able to be chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 makes it a pretty versatile gun. Depending on where the normal price for the civilian gun ends up I can see it doing well just like the smaller MCX. Yeah I’m not interested in this thing, on the civilian side, at all in .277 Fury. Now the Spear in 6.5CM or the Raptor in .308, that would be fucking cool. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:36:53 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeah I’m not interested in this thing, on the civilian side, at all in .277 Fury. Now the Spear in 6.5CM or the Raptor in .308, that would be fucking cool. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Being able to be chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 makes it a pretty versatile gun. Depending on where the normal price for the civilian gun ends up I can see it doing well just like the smaller MCX. Yeah I’m not interested in this thing, on the civilian side, at all in .277 Fury. Now the Spear in 6.5CM or the Raptor in .308, that would be fucking cool. 6.5 CM and 308 need regular sized barrels to have respectable performance; if youre putting a traditional length barrel in 6.5/308 on the Spear then its nothing special, just a piston AR10. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:38:49 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 CM and 308 need regular sized barrels to have respectable performance; if youre putting a traditional length barrel in 6.5/308 on the Spear then its nothing special, just a piston AR10. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Being able to be chambered in 6.5 Creedmoor and 308 makes it a pretty versatile gun. Depending on where the normal price for the civilian gun ends up I can see it doing well just like the smaller MCX. Yeah I’m not interested in this thing, on the civilian side, at all in .277 Fury. Now the Spear in 6.5CM or the Raptor in .308, that would be fucking cool. 6.5 CM and 308 need regular sized barrels to have respectable performance; if youre putting a traditional length barrel in 6.5/308 on the Spear then its nothing special, just a piston AR10. It’s nothing revolutionary, but it’s still fucking cool. I just like the way they look. I don’t think this rifle in general is revolutionary, or even a good idea. But I’ve paid more for dumber shit and would be receptive to the idea of a SBR .308 Raptor. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 10:57:26 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I was never an infantryman but the single most important thing I learned at Building 4 is that machine guns are not used the way you think they are. If your assault is going to last 20 minutes, you want to be able to talk guns for 20 minutes. When you calculate that much ammo that takes, and what it weighs, your knees will start to ache just thinking about it. That assumes the guns don’t have high magnification scopes. With the ability to see detail in the target area, you don’t need to shoot with limited awareness. |
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Posted: 4/20/2022 11:53:49 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That assumes the guns don’t have high magnification scopes. With the ability to see detail in the target area, you don’t need to shoot with limited awareness. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I was never an infantryman but the single most important thing I learned at Building 4 is that machine guns are not used the way you think they are. If your assault is going to last 20 minutes, you want to be able to talk guns for 20 minutes. When you calculate that much ammo that takes, and what it weighs, your knees will start to ache just thinking about it. That assumes the guns don’t have high magnification scopes. With the ability to see detail in the target area, you don’t need to shoot with limited awareness. We could resolve this by telling you to carry enough ammunition to spray a tree like for 20 minutes (with another gun) and see how you feel after walking there. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 12:03:27 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We could resolve this by telling you to carry enough ammunition to spray a tree like for 20 minutes (with another gun) and see how you feel after walking there. That’s something like 500 pounds of 7.62x51mm ammunition. Nobody’s carrying that without a vehicle no matter the caliber. Remember that the .338 machine gun idea was only a matter of wanting to increase effective range without giving everyone a heavier gun and compromising close range rifle performance. If there’s no effective range deficiency in the first place, then it isn’t needed or desirable. This has clearly grown beyond its appropriate context and is off topic. Probably shouldn’t have mentioned it. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 12:11:12 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Gen. Mark Milley started this ball rolling when he was Army chief of staff. So that tells ya something. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: It's dumb as hell. Gen. Mark Milley started this ball rolling when he was Army chief of staff. So that tells ya something. Yeah..... Where's all that really bad ass armor plates that the Russian infantry and Spetznaz supposedly had? That was the reason those guys wanted to try and foist that fucking stupid ass 7.62 battle rifle on our guys. Yeah that shit never existed. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 12:12:30 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Let's be realistic. You'll carry everything you carried before and the mule will carry more, then the mule will break and you'll have to carry its load and it back. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Turn on the TV. The weight a Soldier carries needs to be HE. Tesla electric pack mules in FDE/Taupe will carry the heavy shit. Let's be realistic. You'll carry everything you carried before and the mule will carry more, then the mule will break and you'll have to carry its load and it back.  Attached File |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 12:18:35 AM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 6.5 CM and 308 need regular sized barrels to have respectable performance; if youre putting a traditional length barrel in 6.5/308 on the Spear then its nothing special, just a piston AR10. Agree to disagree I guess especially on the SPEAR. Going to have more power than a 556/300 Blackout with the same length barrel. 13" is more than enough for a 308 or 6.5 Creedmoor. It's not like you are shooting long range with it. Don't hear the HK417, LMT MWS, Scar 17S guys complaining about that length 308. The Raptor yeah that's a little crazy for a big rifle cartridge but you never know. The platform catches on and sticks around long enough some crazy dudes will build barrels in 358 Winchester or 450 Marlin  Maybe even the new super snazzy 8.6 Blackout.Sky's the limit. I look forward to seeing them. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 1:10:16 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The contract is 4.7 Billion dollars over 10 years for up to 250,000 rifles. The initial order of $20 million is for 40 guns, 25 M5s, 15 M250s and a boatload of ammo. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: 20 million over 10 years for a prototype and testing. It is nowhere near replacing anything. The contract is certainly not for fielding a main line battle rifle or LMG. The contract is 4.7 Billion dollars over 10 years for up to 250,000 rifles. The initial order of $20 million is for 40 guns, 25 M5s, 15 M250s and a boatload of ammo. Where are we seeing 4.7 billion? How do we know SIG is going to get that moolah? |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 1:16:59 AM EDT
[#43]
I fired the X series.
it kicked like a fucken mule.... and I am not weak sauce, I own G-3s and FALs. This thing with that suppressor thingy kicked and I swear it had a bit of a trigger slap also. I was not impressed but it was a fluidic situation and opportunity and I didn't want to feel like an oddball and whine about it. But it KICKED ...end of story... how and why the army wants this is..beyond me. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 3:02:27 AM EDT
[#44]
The recoil looks terrible for controllability and time back on target.
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Posted: 4/21/2022 8:12:02 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I fired the X series. it kicked like a fucken mule.... and I am not weak sauce, I own G-3s and FALs. This thing with that suppressor thingy kicked and I swear it had a bit of a trigger slap also. I was not impressed but it was a fluidic situation and opportunity and I didn't want to feel like an oddball and whine about it. But it KICKED ...end of story... how and why the army wants this is..beyond me. Yeah, you can see in the videos it throws around some pretty big dudes who clearly know how to mitigate recoil. Its going to wreck these skinny fat army people I keep seeing around. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 8:30:31 AM EDT
[#46]
8.2lb rifle and heavy ammo seems like a non-starter for general infantry use, and is very shades of the M14 debacle. What the military needs is a lighter modernized rifle that uses lighter polymer-cased ammo.
There is probably something to be said for the 277 Fury with regards to use in machineguns and DMRs. It is probably a very sensible replacement for 308. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 8:35:21 AM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: That assumes the guns don’t have high magnification scopes. With the ability to see detail in the target area, you don’t need to shoot with limited awareness. You seem to be confusing belt-fed machine guns and sniper rifles. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 8:37:45 AM EDT
[#48]
I love the aesthetics of the rifle.
Kinda want one, but a 5.56 variant, if that ever becomes a thing. |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 8:40:02 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Where are we seeing 4.7 billion? How do we know SIG is going to get that moolah? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 20 million over 10 years for a prototype and testing. It is nowhere near replacing anything. The contract is certainly not for fielding a main line battle rifle or LMG. The contract is 4.7 Billion dollars over 10 years for up to 250,000 rifles. The initial order of $20 million is for 40 guns, 25 M5s, 15 M250s and a boatload of ammo. Where are we seeing 4.7 billion? How do we know SIG is going to get that moolah? It is an IDIQ contract no one knows how many orders will be placed, but the Army can order up to the $4.7 Billion ceiling for guns, spare parts, ammo and contractor support. Here is one source for you. NGSW The Drive interview with Col Madore |
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Posted: 4/21/2022 8:45:05 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Even if we want to pretend the PKM is the best LMG in service (this is an extremely debatable claim), the cartridge doesn't make the gun, and those same trash tier armies field box fed rifles that use that same cartridge. Rimmed cartridge + box magazine = garbage. The expert has spoken!  |
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