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Quoted: Some of us are old enough to remember that they M9 had some catastrophic failures in its early days, which gave it a really rough start and a poor reputation to overcome (and that was before the days of the internet). They eventually fixed the issue and it became a reliable pistol with a fairly solid reputation. I'm not sure if that's possible this time. it's a fair point. but even despite it ending up being largely an ammunition issue -- I don't recall Beretta going into denial mode pretending there was not issue. they owned it and made the improvements that were needed. and then we got ~40 years of dependable service. the enhancements to the A4 would have been a solid modular evolution of what everyone was already familiar with. IMO anyway. |
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Quoted: For those familiar with the 320 design could I be fixed with redesigned parts in the form of a recall or is it more fundamental in the design? If the failure is rooted in the design then I see a new competition and pistol chosen. This opens the door for the RXM. Fairly straightforward to convert to the DAO P250, but some slide milling and possibly a new FCU chassis are required. |
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Quoted: I didn't think the 320 was able to fire on it's own, but then it was literally replicated in front of me. I am a believer now 100% Those of us into guns are kinda, not trained, but immersed with the idea that firearms don't discharge by themselves, that it takes a human hand. Or at least a ridged object inside the trigger guard. I 100% believed that it was operator error at first. I have 3 P320 that I actually like, and the first reports were police. Easy to believe that cops were shooting themselves. But at this point, anyone that doesn't think there is some sort of mechanical flaw in the pistol, either in design or manufacturing, is delusional. |
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Quoted: Beretta is a truly ancient design, predating the SIG 226 even. Quoted: Quoted: They won't self fire but Beretta can't seem to figure out chrome lining a barrel. At least in TN they can't. Beretta is a truly ancient design, predating the SIG 226 even.  By a year at most.
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Quoted: The P320 really does have free rent in the heads of so many people here. The only obsession I have seen similar to this is AOC. It’s crazy. I wish AOC would sit on my face, while wearing a P320 in a thigh holster, that discharged at the same time as I did. Giggity. |
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Quoted: They should pull all Sig Products. An American walks into a bar in somewhere in Ireland and sits next to a really old guy drinking a beer. And the old guy’s like, “Did you see that wall on your way into town?” And the guy’s like, “Yeah.” And the old man’s like, “I built that wall with my own two hands. But do they call me O’Grady the Mason? Noooo.” Then he’s like, “Did you see those cabinets on your way into the bar?” And the guy’s like, “Yeah.” And the old man’s like, “I build those cabinets with me own two hands. But do they call me O’Grady the Carpenter? Noooo.” Then he says, “Did you see the iron gates on the way into town?” And the guy’s like, “Yeah.” And the old man’s like, “I built those gates with me own two hands. But do they call me O’Grady the Smith? Noooo. But you fuck one goat…” |
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Quoted: Cancel the P320/M17/m18 and go with the Glock Cancel the M7 and go back to the Colt M4a1, or even the newer Colt M5 Problem solved. Problem staying solved! Seriously fuck Sig! This man knows what he is talking about! If you can't trust a service member with a Glock pistol they don't need to be in a position to be issued a weapon, sorry reclass to some REMF MOS and out of combat arms or other MOS that requires you carry a weapon. They have already been used quite a bit with SOF so it's not uncharted territory. If ND is a problem with Glocks that is a training issue, not a weapons platform issue. |
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I don’t care what any department or org does with it. Doesn’t impact my life in the slightest. I think these are end user issues. Despite claims in this thread, the issues have not been replicable. Every test or video or report doesn’t actually demonstrate any systematic failure that is repeatable. However, if departments want to go a different route, go ahead. But the only way to replicate all of these instances is to catch foreign objects or fingers in the trigger. There may be other options that are more forgiving to idiots, but it doesn’t remove the idiots. I’m perfectly happy with mine. I don’t carry it on me because I pocket carry now, but I still keep it loaded with extra 2 mags on hand for car carry. |
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Sig needs to submit a Class 1 Engineering Change Proposal and a Failure Reporting Analysis and Corrective Action System report. Until then, the M17 and M18 should stay in the arms room. The two documents would determine the path forward, if they would be allowed a customer test of the proposed design change, with preliminary and critical design reviews, DOT&E oversight, etc. Terminate for convenience if the government and Sig can't reach agreement on the path forward, or they fail testing after funding their redesign internally. Terminate for default if Sig can't or won't provide a suitable path forward, or they fail testing after demanding the government pay for the redesign. Kharn |
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Quoted: I’ll just assume you missed the thread about the M18 going off on it own and killing an Airman https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Sig-M18-might-have-just-killed-an-Airman/5-2805777/ Quoted: Quoted: The P320 really does have free rent in the heads of so many people here. The only obsession I have seen similar to this is AOC. It’s crazy. I’ll just assume you missed the thread about the M18 going off on it own and killing an Airman https://www.ar15.com/forums/General/Sig-M18-might-have-just-killed-an-Airman/5-2805777/ Some people will not be convinced there is a problem until their 320 goes off in their holster into their own leg. Fortunately, most people are smarter. |
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Quoted: One on our range counter. Cocked, finger behind the trigger inside the guard. Smacked it onto a table with 2/10 force. Click. Dropped striker and dead trigger. Like, flat on its' side like it would if it was just laying there, or smacked muzzle horizontal like in firing position, or muzzle up or? |
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Quoted: Some of us are old enough to remember that they M9 had some catastrophic failures in its early days, which gave it a really rough start and a poor reputation to overcome (and that was before the days of the internet). They eventually fixed the issue and it became a reliable pistol with a fairly solid reputation. I'm not sure if that's possible this time. Beretta never blamed the user or gaslighted those who questioned the gun, calling them anti-gun and money chasers. They just fixed the problem. |
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Quoted: Those of us into guns are kinda, not trained, but immersed with the idea that firearms don't discharge by themselves, that it takes a human hand. Or at least a ridged object inside the trigger guard. I 100% believed that it was operator error at first. I have 3 P320 that I actually like, and the first reports were police. Easy to believe that cops were shooting themselves. But at this point, anyone that doesn't think there is some sort of mechanical flaw in the pistol, either in design or manufacturing, is delusional. Exactly this. I believed operator error or the combo of thin trigger guard and fat light. Then I was there to witness it with the trigger literally being pushed forward the whole time. We pulled them all from the sales floor. |
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Quoted: Like, flat on its' side like it would if it was just laying there, or smacked muzzle horizontal like in firing position, or muzzle up or? Held in normal firing position. Finger behind trigger. Slight jarring ti gun by either smacking on counter or hitting from behind |
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Quoted: Sig needs to submit a Class 1 Engineering Change Proposal and a Failure Reporting Analysis and Corrective Action System report. Until then, the M17 and M18 should stay in the arms room. The two documents would determine the path forward, if they would be allowed a customer test of the proposed design change, with preliminary and critical design reviews, DOT&E oversight, etc. Terminate for convenience if the government and Sig can't reach agreement on the path forward, or they fail testing after funding their redesign internally. Terminate for default if Sig can't or won't provide a suitable path forward, or they fail testing after demanding the government pay for the redesign. Kharn Why would SIG do any of that? They have repeatedly stated, in both the public sphere and court filings, that it is impossible for the 320 to fire without the trigger being pulled. People seem to think that it's like "Oops! There's a problem! We'll get this fixed lickety split!" Nope, I guaran-fucking-tee you Cohen, their BoD, legal team and senior engineers know- and have known- there is a problem with the gun. |
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Quoted: should have gone with this https://gunsweek.b-cdn.net/sites/default/files/archive/contents/pistols/news/beretta-m9a4-pistol/Beretta-M9A4-4a.jpg?itok=yV_FlknY No. The boomers need to let DA/SA die. It was a shitty idea in the 80s and it’s a shitty idea now. We already have striker fired pistols that work and don’t go off randomly. They’re called Glocks. They are lighter, easier to shoot, and easier to carry. The military has been using them for decades, along with nearly every LE enforcement agency in the country. Like most things the DoD does, switching to a striker fired pistol was long overdue, they just picked the lowest bidder and the worst possible fucking option, and it has turned into a disaster as a result, vs the well vetted option already available. Blame Sig and corrupt GO’s, not striker guns. |
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Quoted: Why would SIG do any of that? They have repeatedly stated, in both the public sphere and court filings, that it is impossible for the 320 to fire without the trigger being pulled. People seem to think that it's like "Oops! There's a problem! We'll get this fixed lickety split!" Nope, I guaran-fucking-tee you Cohen, their BoD, legal team and senior engineers know- and have known- there is a problem with the gun. Quoted: Quoted: Sig needs to submit a Class 1 Engineering Change Proposal and a Failure Reporting Analysis and Corrective Action System report. Until then, the M17 and M18 should stay in the arms room. The two documents would determine the path forward, if they would be allowed a customer test of the proposed design change, with preliminary and critical design reviews, DOT&E oversight, etc. Terminate for convenience if the government and Sig can't reach agreement on the path forward, or they fail testing after funding their redesign internally. Terminate for default if Sig can't or won't provide a suitable path forward, or they fail testing after demanding the government pay for the redesign. Kharn Why would SIG do any of that? They have repeatedly stated, in both the public sphere and court filings, that it is impossible for the 320 to fire without the trigger being pulled. People seem to think that it's like "Oops! There's a problem! We'll get this fixed lickety split!" Nope, I guaran-fucking-tee you Cohen, their BoD, legal team and senior engineers know- and have known- there is a problem with the gun. If so, anyone who knows about such should look up "qui tam" and the False Claims Act. The defendant owes the feds three times the value of the fraud, and the person who brings the qui tam lawsuit gets to keep up to 30% of the money. The M17/M18 contract is valued at $580 million.  Kharn |
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Quoted: No. The boomers need to let DA/SA die. It was a shitty idea in the 80s and it’s a shitty idea now. We already have striker fired pistols that work and don’t go off randomly. They’re called Glocks. They are lighter, easier to shoot, and easier to carry. The military has been using them for decades, along with nearly every LE enforcement agency in the country. Like most things the DoD does, switching to a striker fired pistol was long overdue, they just picked the lowest bidder and the worst possible fucking option, and it has turned into a disaster as a result, vs the well vetted option already available. Blame Sig and corrupt GO’s, not striker guns. SA/DA pistols dont randomly go off in a holster like plunger pistols do says this Boomer who carries a tested and very very reliable CZ75D PCR. 'eff plunger pistols . |
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Quoted: Sig needs to submit a Class 1 Engineering Change Proposal and a Failure Reporting Analysis and Corrective Action System report. Until then, the M17 and M18 should stay in the arms room. The two documents would determine the path forward, if they would be allowed a customer test of the proposed design change, with preliminary and critical design reviews, DOT&E oversight, etc. Terminate for convenience if the government and Sig can't reach agreement on the path forward, or they fail testing after funding their redesign internally. Terminate for default if Sig can't or won't provide a suitable path forward, or they fail testing after demanding the government pay for the redesign. Kharn Fuck that! The Army/DOD needs to grab their nuts and tell SIG to go fuck themselves. They have known about this issue for years yet continue to deny that there is anything wrong with their garbage for a weapon. There have been dozens of documented cases of the weapon UD'ing and a few people have been injured. Sig has been sued and currently being sue'd as a result. And now you have at least 2 known incidents of someone getting killed, possibly due to their faulty product.  Fuck Sig!!! |
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Quoted: What did I miss? Quoted: Quoted: They may have just done exactly that with today's death report. What did I miss? An Airman didn't: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2805777_Sig-M18-might-have-just-killed-an-Airman.html 
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Quoted: No. The boomers need to let DA/SA die. It was a shitty idea in the 80s and it’s a shitty idea now. We already have striker fired pistols that work and don’t go off randomly. They’re called Glocks. They are lighter, easier to shoot, and easier to carry. The military has been using them for decades, along with nearly every LE enforcement agency in the country. Like most things the DoD does, switching to a striker fired pistol was long overdue, they just picked the lowest bidder and the worst possible fucking option, and it has turned into a disaster as a result, vs the well vetted option already available. Blame Sig and corrupt GO’s, not striker guns. Quoted: Quoted: should have gone with this https://gunsweek.b-cdn.net/sites/default/files/archive/contents/pistols/news/beretta-m9a4-pistol/Beretta-M9A4-4a.jpg?itok=yV_FlknY No. The boomers need to let DA/SA die. It was a shitty idea in the 80s and it’s a shitty idea now. We already have striker fired pistols that work and don’t go off randomly. They’re called Glocks. They are lighter, easier to shoot, and easier to carry. The military has been using them for decades, along with nearly every LE enforcement agency in the country. Like most things the DoD does, switching to a striker fired pistol was long overdue, they just picked the lowest bidder and the worst possible fucking option, and it has turned into a disaster as a result, vs the well vetted option already available. Blame Sig and corrupt GO’s, not striker guns. @Jm11513 |
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The government should never have bought the 320 in the first place. No understanding the decision. If they want a striker-fired pistol, they should buy Glock 19s. If they want a Sig, they should buy 226's. I have no beef with Sig per se, but they need to be held accountable for their lies on the 320 platform. It has been going on far too long. |
 USAF stops use of the M18/P320 until further notice (Sergeant killed on duty) |
 Holstered Sig M18 Kills Airman NCO - Airforce Bans Sig P320 |
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Quoted: SA/DA pistols dont randomly go off in a holster like plunger pistols do says this Boomer who carries a tested and very very reliable CZ75D PCR. 'eff plunger pistols . Quoted: Quoted: No. The boomers need to let DA/SA die. It was a shitty idea in the 80s and it’s a shitty idea now. We already have striker fired pistols that work and don’t go off randomly. They’re called Glocks. They are lighter, easier to shoot, and easier to carry. The military has been using them for decades, along with nearly every LE enforcement agency in the country. Like most things the DoD does, switching to a striker fired pistol was long overdue, they just picked the lowest bidder and the worst possible fucking option, and it has turned into a disaster as a result, vs the well vetted option already available. Blame Sig and corrupt GO’s, not striker guns. SA/DA pistols dont randomly go off in a holster like plunger pistols do says this Boomer who carries a tested and very very reliable CZ75D PCR. 'eff plunger pistols . Newsflash, neither do Glocks or M&P’s.
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 The Wire - July 22, 2025 |
 USAF pauses use of M18 |
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Quoted: Fuck that! The Army/DOD needs to grab their nuts and tell SIG to go fuck themselves. They have known about this issue for years yet continue to deny that there is anything wrong with their garbage for a weapon. There have been dozens of documented cases of the weapon UD'ing and a few people have been injured. Sig has been sued and currently being sue'd as a result. And now you have at least 2 known incidents of someone getting killed, possibly due to their faulty product. Fuck Sig!!! Quoted: Quoted: Sig needs to submit a Class 1 Engineering Change Proposal and a Failure Reporting Analysis and Corrective Action System report. Until then, the M17 and M18 should stay in the arms room. The two documents would determine the path forward, if they would be allowed a customer test of the proposed design change, with preliminary and critical design reviews, DOT&E oversight, etc. Terminate for convenience if the government and Sig can't reach agreement on the path forward, or they fail testing after funding their redesign internally. Terminate for default if Sig can't or won't provide a suitable path forward, or they fail testing after demanding the government pay for the redesign. Kharn Fuck that! The Army/DOD needs to grab their nuts and tell SIG to go fuck themselves. They have known about this issue for years yet continue to deny that there is anything wrong with their garbage for a weapon. There have been dozens of documented cases of the weapon UD'ing and a few people have been injured. Sig has been sued and currently being sue'd as a result. And now you have at least 2 known incidents of someone getting killed, possibly due to their faulty product. Fuck Sig!!! If you T4D every vendor whose product was accused of killing one serviceman, you would not have any vendors left to buy from. Kharn |
 Holstered SIG P320 M18 Kills Air Force Sergeant “Allegedly” ?? |
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Quoted: I don’t care what any department or org does with it. Doesn’t impact my life in the slightest. I think these are end user issues. Despite claims in this thread, the issues have not been replicable. Every test or video or report doesn’t actually demonstrate any systematic failure that is repeatable. However, if departments want to go a different route, go ahead. But the only way to replicate all of these instances is to catch foreign objects or fingers in the trigger. There may be other options that are more forgiving to idiots, but it doesn’t remove the idiots. I’m perfectly happy with mine. I don’t carry it on me because I pocket carry now, but I still keep it loaded with extra 2 mags on hand for car carry. Keep your hand in the sand bro, hopefully you don’t lose a testicle or femoral artery in the process |
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Quoted: SIG should be bent over. For not only not acknowledging that there really could be something to this, but working even harder to convince people there isn't. If this were my company, I’d be diligently working to solve the issue, in a very public way to save lives, not hiding it and lying about it. That’s probably why I’m a middle class guy that’s worked in public service my whole life though, not the CEO of sig. |
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Any tax dollars spent on a side arm that's not a Glock is wasted tax dollars. Glocks will literally last for generations given duty use. Are stupid simple and reliable, require almost no maintenance and are the cheapest over the life of the pistol. Before I retired I traded in tens of thousands of Glocks and never had one that wasn't functional. They mostly got traded in because the night sights were weak and it was almost as cheap to trade into brand new pistols as it would be to buy new night sights. |