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Posted: 11/14/2021 8:53:15 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:Sorry I cannot take this seriously the light infantry are not special forces for the hundredth time they are not designed for assault. Light infantry goes through slow-go and no-go terrain that would choke a mechanized division. Again, Pacific war. Substitute PLA for IJA. Lots of light infantry action. Look how far and fast the Japanese moved infantry on bicycles. Island-hopping didn't have huge Sherman tank divisions. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 8:54:15 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You beat China by choking it to death. Cut off external supply of food, petro, coal, ore, and chemicals, and let them starve in the cold and dark. Watch what happens this winter. If you want to see how the Indo-Pac alliance beats China study the WWII Pacific theater. We don't have to step a foot in China -- but when they start branching out you'll have to land wherever they're headed. The Chinese are seriously about "Face." There are still those that remember a lot of Japanese would like nothing better than killing Chinese wholesale. Exactly. A war with China would be all over the Pacific, the Philippines, SE Asia, and Korea. None of which is typically suitable terrain for large armored formations. The Marines already saw the writing on the wall with their EABO and LOCE plans, small ground teams that direct fires and chip away at the enemy A2AD bubble enabling large scale movement and maneuver. Europe would be a similar issue with the Russian A2AD threat being so large, however we have more land and first world allies in play there. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 8:54:17 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry I cannot take this seriously the light infantry are not special forces. For the hundredth time they are not designed for assault. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: 3 UTVs would be better losing a whole squad from a 125mm tank round would suck. This thing is essentially a larger UTV, so i'm not sure exactly what you are getting at. Losing 4 guys in a vehicle would suck just like losing 9, but having 4x9 dropped in a single Chinook chalk gets the asses to the fight that we need. It's not even guaranteed that there will be 9 people in each one once specialized equipment starts getting added to loadplans. Sorry I cannot take this seriously the light infantry are not special forces. For the hundredth time they are not designed for assault. Wrong, for the hundred time. How much time do you have as an infantryman? |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 8:55:44 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry I cannot take this seriously the light infantry are not special forces. For the hundredth time they are not designed for assault. I think you need to look at the Infantry ICTL and MET tasks and reevaluate your theories. Furthermore, DA is lower on the list of priorities for Special Forces than you seem to think. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 8:59:04 PM EST
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry I cannot take this seriously the light infantry are not special forces. For the hundredth time they are not designed for assault. I don't see what this has to do with SF. You know their primary vehicle was a GMV (basically a modified humvee) for a long time? Not UTV's. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:01:46 PM EST
[#6]
For the doubters, straight from FM 7-8 INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD. I don't know if it's the current one, I don't have access anymore.
1-1. MISSION** The mission of the infantry is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to defeat or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack. Close with means assault. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:03:13 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: For the doubters, straight from FM 7-8 INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD. I don't know if it's the current one, I don't have access anymore. 1-1. MISSION** The mission of the infantry is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to defeat or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack. Close with means assault. I'm really not sure what he thinks they will be doing if they don't assault anything. There isn't really much else they can do. 
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:03:55 PM EST
[#8]
Military readiness means we're preparing for a near peer conventional full spectrum war. That's how we stay competitive on the world stage. If that ever actually came to pass you better believe light infantry will be doing a lot of assaulting.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:04:44 PM EST
[#9]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm really not sure what he thinks they will be doing if they don't assault anything. There isn't really much else they can do. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: For the doubters, straight from FM 7-8 INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD. I don't know if it's the current one, I don't have access anymore. 1-1. MISSION** The mission of the infantry is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to defeat or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack. Close with means assault. I'm really not sure what he thinks they will be doing if they don't assault anything. There isn't really much else they can do. Oh, there's a lot of things idle infantrymen can do. I know, I was one sometimes. 
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:07:12 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: First I've heard of it. Where did you hear that ? |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:11:21 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Exactly. A war with China would be all over the Pacific, the Philippines, SE Asia, and Korea. None of which is typically suitable terrain for large armored formations. The Marines already saw the writing on the wall with their EABO and LOCE plans, small ground teams that direct fires and chip away at the enemy A2AD bubble enabling large scale movement and maneuver. Europe would be a similar issue with the Russian A2AD threat being so large, however we have more land and first world allies in play there. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: You beat China by choking it to death. Cut off external supply of food, petro, coal, ore, and chemicals, and let them starve in the cold and dark. Watch what happens this winter. If you want to see how the Indo-Pac alliance beats China study the WWII Pacific theater. We don't have to step a foot in China -- but when they start branching out you'll have to land wherever they're headed. The Chinese are seriously about "Face." There are still those that remember a lot of Japanese would like nothing better than killing Chinese wholesale. Exactly. A war with China would be all over the Pacific, the Philippines, SE Asia, and Korea. None of which is typically suitable terrain for large armored formations. The Marines already saw the writing on the wall with their EABO and LOCE plans, small ground teams that direct fires and chip away at the enemy A2AD bubble enabling large scale movement and maneuver. Europe would be a similar issue with the Russian A2AD threat being so large, however we have more land and first world allies in play there. I think many of our top military brass think the same way. One place the US military is spending big is on submarines. They are excellent for trade interdiction. Our navy is built for blue water operations and we have a few allies nearby. Shipping choke points help this strategy even more. It doesn't help that China pisses off many countries near the South China Sea with their ridiculous territorial claims. If they want to go to war, they'll have to source their own shit or get it through Russia. They have factories, but they'll need raw materials and foodstuffs from abroad. They will also have major problems domestically if they are major shortages. The CCP has based much of their legitimacy on improving standards of living. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:14:23 PM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Oh, there's a lot of things idle infantrymen can do. I know, I was one sometimes. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the doubters, straight from FM 7-8 INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD. I don't know if it's the current one, I don't have access anymore. 1-1. MISSION** The mission of the infantry is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to defeat or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack. Close with means assault. I'm really not sure what he thinks they will be doing if they don't assault anything. There isn't really much else they can do. Oh, there's a lot of things idle infantrymen can do. I know, I was one sometimes. I mean assault in a strategic sense. Not assaulting a village in Afghanistan. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:16:56 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean assault in a strategic sense. Not assaulting a village in Afghanistan. Then you are still wrong. A JFE requires a strategic level assault by primarily light infantry to establish a foothold for follow on forces. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:17:01 PM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean assault in a strategic sense. Not assaulting a village in Afghanistan. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: For the doubters, straight from FM 7-8 INFANTRY RIFLE PLATOON AND SQUAD. I don't know if it's the current one, I don't have access anymore. 1-1. MISSION** The mission of the infantry is to close with the enemy by means of fire and maneuver to defeat or capture him, or to repel his assault by fire, close combat, and counterattack. Close with means assault. I'm really not sure what he thinks they will be doing if they don't assault anything. There isn't really much else they can do. Oh, there's a lot of things idle infantrymen can do. I know, I was one sometimes. I mean assault in a strategic sense. Not assaulting a village in Afghanistan. Move that goal post!!! Assault is an assault. I don't' think you're familiar with the levels of war either. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:19:05 PM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: And there's a wide range between hard road and rock crawling. I've taken my pickup places a lot of guys wouldn't want to take their lifted trucks. This makes sense to have in the arsenal. Contrary to this thread we aren’t going to fan out and drive across Ukraine in a modified wedge. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:21:43 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Contrary to this thread we aren’t going to fan out and drive across Ukraine in a modified wedge. Nope but in a war against Russia small decentralized elements pushed forward via air to reduce A2AD targets and secure key infrastructure is definitely on the table. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:24:02 PM EST
[#17]
How long before it is up-armored? Then fix the suspension, braking and transmission because it won't stand up to the added weight then figure a way for the squad to bail. Next thing you know, it will be down to a 3 or 4 man crew with driver, gunner commander and perhaps a tail gunner.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:24:24 PM EST
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I mean assault in a strategic sense. Not assaulting a village in Afghanistan. I don't know where you come up with about 90% of what you post, but here's something you should probably read before continuing to embarrass yourself. "Strategic" means a combined arms/JIM fight and most certainly involves assaulting in multiple domains....but assaulting is a tactical level function. I think you meant "doctrinal" sense, but you are wrong either way. I'll go ahead and give you the answer key for a core component of the tactical echelon. https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN8519_ATP%203-21x10%20Final%20Web.pdf I'll even give you a focal point: Figure 2-60. Company attack (assault), example ...................................................................... 2-159 Figure 2-68. Company raid (insertion/infiltration), example ....................................................... 2-183 Figure 2-69. Company raid (objective area sealed off/isolation), example ................................ 2-184 Figure 2-70. Company raid (objective seized and task accomplished/withdrawal), example .... 2-185 |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:28:28 PM EST
[#19]
Apparently there has been some thought put into the acquisition.
https://www.popsci.com/technology/army-infantry-squad-vehicle-explained/ The Army is invested in the ISV to the tune of 649 vehicles by the end of 2024, with plans for 2,065 total. It’s so integral to how the Army plans for fighting future war that it’s already writing its doctrine with ISVs in mind. In an Army Field Manual published January 2021, the role of an Infantry Brigade Combat Team is defined as “dismounted operations in complex terrain—a geographical area consisting of an urban center larger than a village and/or of two or more types of restrictive terrain or environmental conditions occupying the same space.” That restrictive terrain could be a small town next to a marsh. It could be an industrial complex on the edge of a rock field. It could also be a network of trenches dug into a forest, or a myriad of similar complex spaces. This is the kind of area that is accessible by foot and by off-road vehicle, but difficult or impassable for heavier armored vehicles, like MRAPs or Strykers. The ISV, by carrying a squad and its gear to the action, lets the soldiers protect themselves with speed and then by dismounting from the vehicle into cover. The car is how soldiers get to the fight; it is not the platform from which they will fight. Another requirement for the Infantry Brigades that will use ISVs is the ability to arrive quickly by air, and be ready to move as soon as they hit the ground. The vehicle requirements specify that it can be carried in a sling underneath a Black Hawk helicopter, or a Chinook Helicopter, and it can be dropped at low speeds from a flying C-130 or C-17 transport plane. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:34:23 PM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: How long before it is up-armored? Then fix the suspension, braking and transmission because it won't stand up to the added weight then figure a way for the squad to bail. Next thing you know, it will be down to a 3 or 4 man crew with driver, gunner commander and perhaps a tail gunner. There's other options for vehicular movement as has been discussed.... |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 9:57:33 PM EST
[#21]
... it can be dropped at low speeds from a flying C-130 or C-17 transport plane. Anything can be dropped once. Whether it'll be usable is debatable. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 10:38:44 PM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: OK, you've lost me here. There's not even a weapons ring on the Chevy. Light infantry goes through slow-go and no-go terrain that would choke a mechanized division. Again, Pacific war. Substitute PLA for IJA. Lots of light infantry action. Look how far and fast the Japanese moved infantry on bicycles. Island-hopping didn't have huge Sherman tank divisions. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted:Sorry I cannot take this seriously the light infantry are not special forces for the hundredth time they are not designed for assault. Light infantry goes through slow-go and no-go terrain that would choke a mechanized division. Again, Pacific war. Substitute PLA for IJA. Lots of light infantry action. Look how far and fast the Japanese moved infantry on bicycles. Island-hopping didn't have huge Sherman tank divisions. There are four door gun points on a Flyer 72, but that has three seats in the front row with the driver in the middle, along with a ring mount option. The ISV has the driver and TC in the front like the Colorado so it is missing the left-front gun point. If you pay GM Defense, they're more than willing to fab up whatever roof pintel mount you want as long as it remains within the CH-47 internal load profile. Just have a big checkbook, they're expensive, but you'll get factory service rep support for the life of the vehicle instead of Bob's Welding Shop telling you too-bad-so-sad when your mount breaks overseas. Kharn |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 10:42:23 PM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We will have air dominance at least over our own forces. We are not sending forces into a contested area. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: When you now have mobile missiles, UAS, and radars in play that will stop your air capacity and destroy your ground assets before they make it within 1000km of the FLOT, smaller mobile units that move quickly and easily hide or displace have a new quality. When you tank armada can be stopped by losing a single bridge, we run into the same conundrum. Take a look at Russia and China and tell me how a direct assault by heavy US forces is even an option? You have to get them there first, in an age where everything is visible and the A2AD bubble is damn near to your own territory. We will have air dominance at least over our own forces. We are not sending forces into a contested area. Who says they were sent into the area? Kharn |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 10:48:46 PM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 3 UTVs would be better losing a whole squad from a 125mm tank round would suck. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: I'm assuming this is more for stateside and places like Germany/Poland for quick and local transport? Or roles far from the front lines. In a modern near-peer war, if you're seen or detected, you're dead. So why bother with a big lumbering vehicle everyone can see to get infantry to the battlefield, with minimal supporting armament, when you can go with minimal cost systems to get there at 80+ mph. Kharn 3 UTVs would be better losing a whole squad from a 125mm tank round would suck. MRZR sucks. Kharn |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:02:55 PM EST
[#25]
With a high parts compatibility with the Chevy Colorado you will need guards to guard the trucks 7/24.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:11:08 PM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: To avoid IED's you avoid roads and commonly traveled routes. This is an offroad vehicle to do just that. Mobility is an option. They'll still have MRAP's and JLTV's for the highway. if it's just a chevy tho, can it do that? |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:14:34 PM EST
[#27]
Hell yea
Hang on boys this exfil gonna be a little scary  |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:16:01 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Hell yea Hang on boys this exfil gonna be a little scary http://pics.imcdb.org/0is708/vlcsnap2010061915h16m09.6681.jpg  |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:20:40 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I'm really not sure what he thinks they will be doing if they don't assault anything. There isn't really much else they can do. We Assault and break things, don't believe me read the Monday blotter
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:20:51 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Pretty cool, I think these can be moved by Chinooks too. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:24:42 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: This will be a failure as a squad-based vehicle. It could have some utility as a special forces vehicle but it is really too big. Multiple UTV's makes more sense, this would have utility only in a limited subset of special ops missions where a higher payload is required. The military really needs to figure out who it is going to be fighting next. Is it the Arabs, Russian or Chinese? Because this thing would fail vs those adversaries. I could see it being useful if we were invading Mexico but beyond that why? A platoon is 4 9 man squads plus headquarters for a total of 42 PAX at max strength. Moving that platoon with 4 passenger UTVs requires 11 VICs with 2 empty seats. If you leave 1 driver per VIC at the VDO, that means your platoon has 31 people who can actually perform actions on the objective. If we assume your PL, PSG, and medic come along that means a full squad and two support PAX out of action driving UTVs. Do the same thing with 9 passenger ISVs and you can use 5 vics for 37 PAX on objective, with only a fire team and one strap hanger out of action. Now assume that you have to infil on 2 Chinooks. You can fit 4 ISVs and 36 PAX (32 on objective) or 6 UTVs and 24 PAX with 18 on objective. Which do you choose? |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:24:50 PM EST
[#32]
All the 'cool shit' the Army has supposedly provided the infantry over the last decade, at least in the public eye - but in reality we are still rolling around in HUMVEES, M4's and PVS-14's.
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:26:49 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: All the 'cool shit' the Army has supposedly provided the infantry over the last decade, at least in the public eye - but in reality we are still rolling around in HUMVEES, M4's and PVS-14's. Try deploying. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:26:57 PM EST
[#34]
My guess is anything on top of the roll cage (including rucks) is going to make it too high to get into a Chinook. No rucks on the sides, either.
To get M151s into a Chinook we had to dismount the M60s and I think we had to un-screw the radio antennas from the mounts. Same went for TOW jeeps. Troops are either going to have to leave their rucks inside the vehicle footprint, or carry them and load / lash once the vehicle rolls out, taking time. Nine soldiers is going to be REALLY tight. GM's heavy weapons ISV drops souls aboard from nine to five. 
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:28:12 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Try deploying. lmao. deployed last year with the 101st to Africa. same shit different country. you do know infantry takes all their own weapons and nods on deployment, right? we fell in on in-country trucks, but still humvees. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:28:28 PM EST
[#36]
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:30:21 PM EST
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lmao. deployed last year with the 101st to Africa. same shit different country. you do know infantry takes all their own weapons and nods on deployment, right? we fell in on in-country trucks, but still humvees. In AFG 2009 we gave all of our humvees to the ANA. We rolled in MRAP's, ASV's, MATV's, etc after that. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:30:24 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lmao. deployed last year with the 101st to Africa. same shit different country. you do know infantry takes all their own weapons and nods on deployment, right? we fell in on in-country trucks, but still humvees. I meant real deployments. #sorryforyourtrainingmission |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:30:57 PM EST
[#39]
So how long is it before they mount a 120mm smoothbore or a TOW mounted drone on it? I don't see the kitchen sink nor even a porta-potty on it, is it for real?
Does a utility trailer come with it? Soldiers never have enough gear. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:31:44 PM EST
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A lot of my time was without a vehicle at all. So when the bullets started flying we shot back. IED's? Why are you on the pavement? We will have to retrain a generation of Army Officers to get the fuck off the hardball and stop sending convoys down MSR dumbfuck at 09:15 every Tuesday. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:32:38 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted: lmao. deployed last year with the 101st to Africa. same shit different country. you do know infantry takes all their own weapons and nods on deployment, right? we fell in on in-country trucks, but still humvees. I figured guys had PVS31s and M4A1s by now. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:33:08 PM EST
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Space Force baby!! Quote History |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:33:54 PM EST
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I meant real deployments. #sorryforyourtrainingmission east africa response force, but yea, training mission
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:35:08 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: In AFG 2009 we gave all of our humvees to the ANA. We rolled in MRAP's, ASV's, MATV's, etc after that. Our DRB/GRF where still rigging HMMWVs for drops. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:36:18 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: So they are not using JLTVs yet? No MATVs? I figured guys had PVS31s and M4A1s by now. Not in our brigade. JLTVs are suppose to replace the humvees but you know how that goes. I run PQS20's only because I'm a 240 guy, but most everyone is still running PVS14s |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:37:34 PM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The concept worked in WWII, Korea and Vietnam. Did you ever see the remains of a jeep after it ran over a mine in WWII? Not much was left. Now they want to blow up 9 at a time. I guess the risk factor is good enough for govt. work. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:38:06 PM EST
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not in our brigade. JLTVs are suppose to replace the humvees but you know how that goes. I run PQS20's only because I'm a 240 guy, but most everyone is still running PVS14s So nothing has changed since I retired in 2016. |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:40:22 PM EST
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Damn, So nothing has changed since I retired in 2016. yea. at least where I'm at you gotta go SF for the cool shit. half my platoon has SFAS dates for next year |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:40:34 PM EST
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Coming to a school board meeting near you..... |
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Posted: 11/14/2021 11:48:05 PM EST
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted: yea. at least where I'm at you gotta go SF for the cool shit. half my platoon has SFAS dates for next year Are they all watching the FNG Academy on youtube?
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