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How does air even get back that far? It seems going in any cave further than 75' or so without an external air supply is a death wish.
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Quoted: Well, for starters, practically everyone uses the freeway so it's not a valid comparison. Not only that, but it's essential for our economy. So because of those very important details we as a society allow some (quite often dumbassed) people to suffer and die because many, many, many more people would suffer and die if we shut it down. The cave, OTOH, is frequented primarily by fit young males for recreational purposes. It didn't produce any significant economic value other than being a place to play, and had real public costs in the form of paying for rescues. They shut it down and 99.99% of the population of Utah didn't even notice. But I would be willing to leave it open IF people who used it were willing to take financial and practical responsibility for their own rescues. That simply isn't going to happen in Spencer Cox's Utah -- or anywhere else, for that matter. View Quote It's not the government's job to protect people from the great outdoors. It's also not their responsibility to rescue idiots. Spend a few tax dollars on a sign that clearly states 'You're on your own' and open it up. Not everybody is incompetent, and many people are more than capable of exploring and successfully leaving one of nature's wonders. It's bullshit that it's closed off because one idiot fucked up. If we banned everything down to protect the lowest common denominator, there would be ZERO fun things to do. And we're well on our way. |
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Quoted: Those words have helped me from ever getting stuck during my 20+ years of caving. Panicking will tense you up and make you bigger. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: There's definitely an adrenaline dopamine rush from it. You just have to control it until AFTER you're through. Used to go caving/spelunking when I was younger. Been through ONE squeeze that required first hyperventilating to hyperoxygenate my blood, then exhaling FULLY to be able to squeeze through. The hyperoxygenation was necessary for the ~10-20 seconds of effort to make it through. Panicking in the middle and trying to inhale = getting stuck and asphyxiating, so it required the breathing to hyperoxygenate while simultaneously trying to remain calm, (not think about the fact that if I took too long, there was NO room to take a breath) and not elevate my heart rate too much so I didn't burn through the oxygen too quickly. I absolutely never explored 'new' sections. I only ever went through sections that were already explored and that other people had been through. Even with THAT precaution, I came to a few realizations: 1) don't be the biggest person in the group. When people who are 40+lbs lighter tell you that a section is "No problem", it might be for them, but may be a completely different story for you. 2) even if you aren't much heavier than the heaviest person in the group, being significantly taller can also pose problems shorter people don't even have 3) lifting weights to get bigger and stronger run counter to caving. That made it an easy choice. *** The ONE time I actually got claustrophobic while caving was related to #2. I was the tallest person in the group, and we came to a crawl that was tight enough, we had to remove our helmets and turn our heads sideways. In the middle of the crawl, I came to a section that made an 'S' bend. Tight sections like this are like solving a puzzle. You need to figure out how to contort to make it through when you can't just squirm through. I twisted. I squirmed. I bent in all sorts of weird ways. Then I got stuck. Tight. I was lodged with my body twisted one way, my legs bent and twisted in another part, and my legs were stuck fast. I couldn't pull them forward, I couldn't push back and straighten them out. It was quite an uncomfortable position, and as I tried to gain some movement, my legs being wedged and not moving at all, with my shoulder also wedged hard against on side and my head turned sideways, was what triggered the claustrophobia. I started to panic and try to 'muscle it'. Yeah, you can't push solid rock to make room. All the pump does, is wedge you a little tighter. I thought, "I can't move. I'd have to break my leg(s) to get free!". Somehow, I managed to scream in my own head, "STOP AND CALM THE FUCK DOWN!!! Control your breathing. You're twisted like a pretzel, but you need to relax. You managed to squirm your way into this position, which means you can squirm your way back out of this position. Worst comes to worst, you'll have to back out the way you came in. Relax. Slow your breathing. Loosen your muscles, then try different movements, bit by bit, one at a time. Find the one that allows movement". It worked. Took a few minutes of controlled breathing to calm down, and I began testing movements. I eventually managed to get one leg a little room. Just an inch or 2, which allowed me some room to maneuver the other leg. I had to turn a different way to slowly get my body and long legs through that S-bend. Got stuck a couple more times, but stayed calm and worked through it, solving the puzzle. Finally made it through, and the others were like, "You get stuck in there? You took a long ass time". "I thought you said there was nothing to cause problems through there. I got stuck at the friggin S-bend". The others look around and shrug, "that bit's not that bad". That was when it hit me that I was about 4" taller than the next tallest person in that group. *** the difference in me getting stuck, was that the section was level. The unfortunate Nutty Putty incident was a steep decline. Every movement made him slide deeper, with less room to maneuver. He solved the puzzle to get his legs through the one bend, but didn't have the strength left, to maneuver back out while fighting gravity, and because of that, the rescuers also couldn't pull him out. Haven't been caving in decades. Don't really miss it. Those words have helped me from ever getting stuck during my 20+ years of caving. Panicking will tense you up and make you bigger. Username DEFINITELY fits |
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A cave where every move you make, you squeeze yourself through like a turd? Nope. Doesn't sound like fun to me.
Now the walking cave tours where you can actually see the rock formations and stuff? Hell yes, sign me up. |
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View Quote Was hoping someone was going to post the internet historian video. Good stuff. |
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Quoted: Those words have helped me from ever getting stuck during my 20+ years of caving. Panicking will tense you up and make you bigger. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: There's definitely an adrenaline dopamine rush from it. You just have to control it until AFTER you're through. Used to go caving/spelunking when I was younger. Been through ONE squeeze that required first hyperventilating to hyperoxygenate my blood, then exhaling FULLY to be able to squeeze through. The hyperoxygenation was necessary for the ~10-20 seconds of effort to make it through. Panicking in the middle and trying to inhale = getting stuck and asphyxiating, so it required the breathing to hyperoxygenate while simultaneously trying to remain calm, (not think about the fact that if I took too long, there was NO room to take a breath) and not elevate my heart rate too much so I didn't burn through the oxygen too quickly. I absolutely never explored 'new' sections. I only ever went through sections that were already explored and that other people had been through. Even with THAT precaution, I came to a few realizations: 1) don't be the biggest person in the group. When people who are 40+lbs lighter tell you that a section is "No problem", it might be for them, but may be a completely different story for you. 2) even if you aren't much heavier than the heaviest person in the group, being significantly taller can also pose problems shorter people don't even have 3) lifting weights to get bigger and stronger run counter to caving. That made it an easy choice. *** The ONE time I actually got claustrophobic while caving was related to #2. I was the tallest person in the group, and we came to a crawl that was tight enough, we had to remove our helmets and turn our heads sideways. In the middle of the crawl, I came to a section that made an 'S' bend. Tight sections like this are like solving a puzzle. You need to figure out how to contort to make it through when you can't just squirm through. I twisted. I squirmed. I bent in all sorts of weird ways. Then I got stuck. Tight. I was lodged with my body twisted one way, my legs bent and twisted in another part, and my legs were stuck fast. I couldn't pull them forward, I couldn't push back and straighten them out. It was quite an uncomfortable position, and as I tried to gain some movement, my legs being wedged and not moving at all, with my shoulder also wedged hard against on side and my head turned sideways, was what triggered the claustrophobia. I started to panic and try to 'muscle it'. Yeah, you can't push solid rock to make room. All the pump does, is wedge you a little tighter. I thought, "I can't move. I'd have to break my leg(s) to get free!". Somehow, I managed to scream in my own head, "STOP AND CALM THE FUCK DOWN!!! Control your breathing. You're twisted like a pretzel, but you need to relax. You managed to squirm your way into this position, which means you can squirm your way back out of this position. Worst comes to worst, you'll have to back out the way you came in. Relax. Slow your breathing. Loosen your muscles, then try different movements, bit by bit, one at a time. Find the one that allows movement". It worked. Took a few minutes of controlled breathing to calm down, and I began testing movements. I eventually managed to get one leg a little room. Just an inch or 2, which allowed me some room to maneuver the other leg. I had to turn a different way to slowly get my body and long legs through that S-bend. Got stuck a couple more times, but stayed calm and worked through it, solving the puzzle. Finally made it through, and the others were like, "You get stuck in there? You took a long ass time". "I thought you said there was nothing to cause problems through there. I got stuck at the friggin S-bend". The others look around and shrug, "that bit's not that bad". That was when it hit me that I was about 4" taller than the next tallest person in that group. *** the difference in me getting stuck, was that the section was level. The unfortunate Nutty Putty incident was a steep decline. Every movement made him slide deeper, with less room to maneuver. He solved the puzzle to get his legs through the one bend, but didn't have the strength left, to maneuver back out while fighting gravity, and because of that, the rescuers also couldn't pull him out. Haven't been caving in decades. Don't really miss it. Those words have helped me from ever getting stuck during my 20+ years of caving. Panicking will tense you up and make you bigger. Just READING this, I had to stop a few times, pause, catch my breath, and ask myself if I wanted to keep reading. I would rather be burned alive in a car crash than purposefully squeeze myself into a S-bend or anything close to what was described here. |
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Quoted: Just READING this, I had to stop a few times, pause, catch my breath, and ask myself if I wanted to keep reading. I would rather be burned alive in a car crash than purposefully squeeze myself into a S-bend or anything close to what was described here. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There's definitely an adrenaline dopamine rush from it. You just have to control it until AFTER you're through. Used to go caving/spelunking when I was younger. Been through ONE squeeze that required first hyperventilating to hyperoxygenate my blood, then exhaling FULLY to be able to squeeze through. The hyperoxygenation was necessary for the ~10-20 seconds of effort to make it through. Panicking in the middle and trying to inhale = getting stuck and asphyxiating, so it required the breathing to hyperoxygenate while simultaneously trying to remain calm, (not think about the fact that if I took too long, there was NO room to take a breath) and not elevate my heart rate too much so I didn't burn through the oxygen too quickly. I absolutely never explored 'new' sections. I only ever went through sections that were already explored and that other people had been through. Even with THAT precaution, I came to a few realizations: 1) don't be the biggest person in the group. When people who are 40+lbs lighter tell you that a section is "No problem", it might be for them, but may be a completely different story for you. 2) even if you aren't much heavier than the heaviest person in the group, being significantly taller can also pose problems shorter people don't even have 3) lifting weights to get bigger and stronger run counter to caving. That made it an easy choice. *** The ONE time I actually got claustrophobic while caving was related to #2. I was the tallest person in the group, and we came to a crawl that was tight enough, we had to remove our helmets and turn our heads sideways. In the middle of the crawl, I came to a section that made an 'S' bend. Tight sections like this are like solving a puzzle. You need to figure out how to contort to make it through when you can't just squirm through. I twisted. I squirmed. I bent in all sorts of weird ways. Then I got stuck. Tight. I was lodged with my body twisted one way, my legs bent and twisted in another part, and my legs were stuck fast. I couldn't pull them forward, I couldn't push back and straighten them out. It was quite an uncomfortable position, and as I tried to gain some movement, my legs being wedged and not moving at all, with my shoulder also wedged hard against on side and my head turned sideways, was what triggered the claustrophobia. I started to panic and try to 'muscle it'. Yeah, you can't push solid rock to make room. All the pump does, is wedge you a little tighter. I thought, "I can't move. I'd have to break my leg(s) to get free!". Somehow, I managed to scream in my own head, "STOP AND CALM THE FUCK DOWN!!! Control your breathing. You're twisted like a pretzel, but you need to relax. You managed to squirm your way into this position, which means you can squirm your way back out of this position. Worst comes to worst, you'll have to back out the way you came in. Relax. Slow your breathing. Loosen your muscles, then try different movements, bit by bit, one at a time. Find the one that allows movement". It worked. Took a few minutes of controlled breathing to calm down, and I began testing movements. I eventually managed to get one leg a little room. Just an inch or 2, which allowed me some room to maneuver the other leg. I had to turn a different way to slowly get my body and long legs through that S-bend. Got stuck a couple more times, but stayed calm and worked through it, solving the puzzle. Finally made it through, and the others were like, "You get stuck in there? You took a long ass time". "I thought you said there was nothing to cause problems through there. I got stuck at the friggin S-bend". The others look around and shrug, "that bit's not that bad". That was when it hit me that I was about 4" taller than the next tallest person in that group. *** the difference in me getting stuck, was that the section was level. The unfortunate Nutty Putty incident was a steep decline. Every movement made him slide deeper, with less room to maneuver. He solved the puzzle to get his legs through the one bend, but didn't have the strength left, to maneuver back out while fighting gravity, and because of that, the rescuers also couldn't pull him out. Haven't been caving in decades. Don't really miss it. Those words have helped me from ever getting stuck during my 20+ years of caving. Panicking will tense you up and make you bigger. Just READING this, I had to stop a few times, pause, catch my breath, and ask myself if I wanted to keep reading. I would rather be burned alive in a car crash than purposefully squeeze myself into a S-bend or anything close to what was described here. I have never been scared of confined spaces. Never even gave it a second thought or been claustrophobic. Last year after surgery I had to have an MRI. No problem. Never had a problem before. My whole body was moved into the machine and a panic began to come over me that I have never felt in my life. It almost came to me calling get me out get me out. I dont know what brought it on and I made it through it but I was in there a long time. Still bothers me a bit. |
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Quoted: A cave where every move you make, you squeeze yourself through like a turd? Nope. Doesn't sound like fun to me. Now the walking cave tours where you can actually see the rock formations and stuff? Hell yes, sign me up. View Quote Breaking through to virgin passage and seeing something no human has ever seen before makes it very worthwhile. There are incredible sights under us...if you are able to get there |
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Quoted: Breaking through to virgin passage and seeing something no human has ever seen before makes it very worthwhile. There are incredible sights under us...if you are able to get there View Quote Kinda this, years ago I could say that more people had walked on the moon than had been in some places I have been. Since cave diving became commercial I am sure that is no longer the case. As for dry caving, I did some when I was a little younger and a lot more limber. Its exhausting, I never really saw the risk vs. reward. But I have been there and done that, got the shirt ( it was full of holes and blood stains ). Not sure my elbows have ever fully recovered. |
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Quoted: I have never been scared of confined spaces. Never even gave it a second thought or been claustrophobic. Last year after surgery I had to have an MRI. No problem. Never had a problem before. My whole body was moved into the machine and a panic began to come over me that I have never felt in my life. It almost came to me calling get me out get me out. I dont know what brought it on and I made it through it but I was in there a long time. Still bothers me a bit. View Quote I've had a few MRIs. I am claustrophobic. I learned after my first 45 minute torture session of pure hell that valium is my friend. Get a scrip for one pill. 7-10 mg does it for me. Go in. Sleep through it all. ETA: having been through NP a few times, including the birth canal, I can look back at what an idiot I was. Man, was I dumb! |
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I'm a digger in the caving community. I open up new caves and leads all the time. I've got over 300 new and unique holes my son and I have discovered. Not all lead to big caves, but we've discovered our share.
I get stuck occasionally and have to keep my cool and unstick myself and back out. I've only done it once in a vertical situation, and that is a whole other ball game and a lesson learned that I'll never repeat. This is me getting ready to push through a virgin squeeze. Attached File |
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Quoted: I'm a digger in the caving community. I open up new caves and leads all the time. I've got over 300 new and unique holes my son and I have discovered. Not all lead to big caves, but we've discovered our share. I get stuck occasionally and have to keep my cool and unstick myself and back out. I've only done it once in a vertical situation, and that is a whole other ball game and a lesson learned that I'll never repeat. This is me getting ready to push through a virgin squeeze. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132711/20220703_115712_jpg-2669775.JPG View Quote Wit all due respect sir. You are clearly a fucking lunatic. |
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Dude left behind a beautiful wife and kid on the way IIRC.
Real tragedy… |
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I honestly think that guy is in the Top 10 of worst deaths ever.
Like being lit on fire, drowning, getting shot. Those things would all suck but going out like he did? Holy shit no. |
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Thw worst part of that video was the voice-over. Holy shit that made me cringe.
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If you want to turn up pucker factor to 11, imagine climbing thru one of those caves and discovering that the water levels are rising and you can’t escape.
People die by rising water table or storm runoff in those literal hell holes. I’d rather hop in a wood chipper. |
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Quoted: I'm a digger in the caving community. I open up new caves and leads all the time. I've got over 300 new and unique holes my son and I have discovered. Not all lead to big caves, but we've discovered our share. I get stuck occasionally and have to keep my cool and unstick myself and back out. I've only done it once in a vertical situation, and that is a whole other ball game and a lesson learned that I'll never repeat. This is me getting ready to push through a virgin squeeze https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/132711/20220703_115712_jpg-2669775.JPG View Quote Not the pic I was expecting. |
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I might like this channel
Failed To Load Title Cave Exploring Gone WRONG | The Veryovkina Cave Incidents Cave Exploring Gone WRONG | Antarctic Iceberg Cave Incident They LOCKED Him Inside | Cave Exploring Gone Wrong #14 Caver Fell To Her DEATH | Cave Exploring Gone WRONG They Should Have STAYED OUT | Cave Exploring Gone WRONG Cave Exploring Gone WRONG |
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Watched the video, didn't read the entire thread.
Dude shoulda stuck to exploring his wife's tight, dark, hole, because now he's forever entombed in that cave whilst some other guy is exploring her wonderful cavern. |
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Quoted: Breaking through to virgin passage and seeing something no human has ever seen before makes it very worthwhile. There are incredible sights under us...if you are able to get there View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: A cave where every move you make, you squeeze yourself through like a turd? Nope. Doesn't sound like fun to me. Now the walking cave tours where you can actually see the rock formations and stuff? Hell yes, sign me up. Breaking through to virgin passage and seeing something no human has ever seen before makes it very worthwhile. There are incredible sights under us...if you are able to get there I've got no problem with other people making those trips and wish them all the luck. But I'll nope right out. |
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Quoted: It's not the government's job to protect people from the great outdoors. It's also not their responsibility to rescue idiots. Spend a few tax dollars on a sign that clearly states 'You're on your own' and open it up. Not everybody is incompetent, and many people are more than capable of exploring and successfully leaving one of nature's wonders. It's bullshit that it's closed off because one idiot fucked up. If we banned everything down to protect the lowest common denominator, there would be ZERO fun things to do. And we're well on our way. View Quote But until you can convince the overwhelming majority of Americans who think otherwise there will continue to be expensive, complex, and resource-intensive rescues of stupid people in the great outdoors. Which means that the government is going to eventually step in and say "this is too expensive" and move to control costs and protect people from their own dumbassery. BTW from what I've seen the biggest group demanding government intervention is made up of supposedly "experienced" outdoors enthusiasts who buy the latest communication devices and gear in order to ensure that while they are out taking selfies on a knife-edge cliff they can rest assured their satellite phone will bring a helicopter in time to pluck them off the mountain before the weather turns bad. |
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I'm a hard rock miner. I've been in 150-year-old workings and that never bothers me. Caves scare the shit out of me.
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They had to have known that was a possible outcome before getting themselves into that situation. It's an awful way to die but I have a hard time seeing it as different from a Darwin award That is a huge amount of effort and anguish by many people, all because some idiots wanted to go play in a cave |
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I went spelunking in Nutty Putty when I was a student at BYU in the late 80’s. Scared the hell out of me. There were a couple really tight spots that made you question your mortality. One time was all it ever took anyone. Glad they sealed that tomb up.
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The first restriction is called the Cheese Grater. My WI diving buddies love this cave. The first person shown going in is my rebreather/cave instructor.
No Mount Cave Diving in Wisconsin |
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Quoted: I've had a few MRIs. I am claustrophobic. I learned after my first 45 minute torture session of pure hell that valium is my friend. Get a scrip for one pill. 7-10 mg does it for me. Go in. Sleep through it all. ETA: having been through NP a few times, including the birth canal, I can look back at what an idiot I was. Man, was I dumb! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I have never been scared of confined spaces. Never even gave it a second thought or been claustrophobic. Last year after surgery I had to have an MRI. No problem. Never had a problem before. My whole body was moved into the machine and a panic began to come over me that I have never felt in my life. It almost came to me calling get me out get me out. I dont know what brought it on and I made it through it but I was in there a long time. Still bothers me a bit. I've had a few MRIs. I am claustrophobic. I learned after my first 45 minute torture session of pure hell that valium is my friend. Get a scrip for one pill. 7-10 mg does it for me. Go in. Sleep through it all. ETA: having been through NP a few times, including the birth canal, I can look back at what an idiot I was. Man, was I dumb! I was so relaxed during my mri that I almost fell asleep, no valium or anything taken. I don't think I would squeeze through a cave though, but maybe when I was younger, I would have. I certainly did some dumb stuff when younger. |
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Quoted: The first restriction is called the Cheese Grater. My WI diving buddies love this cave. The first person shown going in is my rebreather/cent instructor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg View Quote ...let's have @Marie weigh in on that video! |
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Quoted: I've had a few MRIs. I am claustrophobic. I learned after my first 45 minute torture session of pure hell that valium is my friend. Get a scrip for one pill. 7-10 mg does it for me. Go in. Sleep through it all. ETA: having been through NP a few times, including the birth canal, I can look back at what an idiot I was. Man, was I dumb! View Quote I was not claustrophobic at all in my younger years, and I didn't think I was as an older adult. I could crawl to the deepest section under a house and work with no issue. But I went in for an MRI and they put headphones on me and some weird glasses that let me look at my feet. I went from not claustrophobic to FUCK THIS SHIT really fast. I asked them to let me take off the glasses and headphones and I was good for the remainder of the visit. I actually kind of enjoyed it. It was like being inside of a dubstep song. I think being able to orient myself naturally and understand what my current state was let me keep cool vs looking off in a direction my head and eyes weren't pointed. |
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Quoted: ...let's have @Marie weigh in on that video! View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: The first restriction is called the Cheese Grater. My WI diving buddies love this cave. The first person shown going in is my rebreather/cent instructor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg ...let's have @Marie weigh in on that video! I won’t dive this one. I don’t like squeezy stuff. I think they’re nuts. |
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I am slightly claustrophobic. Don't even like small elevators. Spelunker? No way.
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Quoted: I won’t dive this one. I don’t like squeezy stuff. I think they’re nuts. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The first restriction is called the Cheese Grater. My WI diving buddies love this cave. The first person shown going in is my rebreather/cent instructor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg ...let's have @Marie weigh in on that video! I won’t dive this one. I don’t like squeezy stuff. I think they’re nuts. As I mentioned before. Done caving. Done diving. No interest whatsoever in combining the two *** Heck, I haven't even been caving this millennium |
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Quoted: The first restriction is called the Cheese Grater. My WI diving buddies love this cave. The first person shown going in is my rebreather/cave instructor. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtlwoX1YEmg View Quote No thanks. There are places man was not meant to go. |
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I've been in caves where I had to crawl through, but as soon as I get to the point I have to wiggle this, or wiggle that, bend this or that way to maybe get through. Fuck all that.
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No. Fucking. Way.
To die like that would be hell on earth. I have been in caves, and been in some that I had to crouch down on my hands and knees and crawl through some choke points... but when it gets to a point where I have to lay down and slide? Fuuuuuuuck that. I give you guys credit that go and explore those tight cave passages that you *hope* will open up into awesome caverns, but I also think you have a screw loose! |
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Quoted: Quoted: How does air even get back that far? It seems going in any cave further than 75' or so without an external air supply is a death wish. It not a vacuum! Caves usually have outlets and inlets too small to see or enter. Imagine that the cave is a pile of rocks; there are lots of air inlets, and few of them are usable by a human. Most caves have at least a slight breeze you can feel on your face; this tells you there's air down there. Now there ARE noxious gasses underground- ask any coal miner. I guess that in most cases they will be mitigated by natural air movement. |
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Quoted: Caves usually have outlets and inlets too small to see or enter. Imagine that the cave is a pile of rocks; there are lots of air inlets, and few of them are usable by a human. Most caves have at least a slight breeze you can feel on your face; this tells you there's air down there. Now there ARE noxious gasses underground- ask any coal miner. I guess that in most cases they will be mitigated by natural air movement. View Quote Thanks I didn't realize there would be enough airflow to prevent asphyxiation. I'm in construction and been on a few projects that had osha mandated regulations because of confined spaces. In one particular instance it was a 30'x50'x20' room that was accessed by a 3'x3' opening. That one needed a person outside monitoring oxygen levels anytime someone was working inside. |
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