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Posted: 12/14/2023 3:52:37 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The french aren't invited anymore. You should see how they’re treated in NATO exercises. That’s the first place I heard the “do you know why the champs Elysees is lines with trees?” joke. It was being told by a Luftwaffe officer. |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 3:55:52 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryQuoted: You should see how they’re treated in NATO exercises. That’s the first place I heard the “do you know why the champs Elysees is lines with trees?” joke. It was being told by a Luftwaffe officer. I've heard 2 stories about French Mirage 2000s being used in exercises. One was that they were claiming kills from way too far away. The other was that German Mig-29s mopped the floor with them. I remember the guy telling that story told it in such a tone he was like, "are we being pranked or did they send us the most incompetent pilots in the country?" |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 5:28:38 PM EST
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Non-concur. Having engine redundancy, which the F-15E has, and the F-16XL has not, is a very important thing for an airframe intended to get down in the weeds and thus be expossed to ground fire and radar-directed anti-aircraft guns. The heavyweight F-15 was better suited for the intended role, however an advanced big wing F-16 platform had potential to be used quite successly in other roles, and there was a fear that it might be considered "good enough" to cut into the ATF buy. 
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Posted: 12/14/2023 7:01:11 PM EST
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The heavyweight F-15 was better suited for the intended role, however an advanced big wing F-16 platform had potential to be used quite successly in other roles, and there was a fear that it might be considered "good enough" to cut into the ATF buy. https://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/f-1photos/album11/album28/aae.jpg?m=1371937527 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Non-concur. Having engine redundancy, which the F-15E has, and the F-16XL has not, is a very important thing for an airframe intended to get down in the weeds and thus be expossed to ground fire and radar-directed anti-aircraft guns. The heavyweight F-15 was better suited for the intended role, however an advanced big wing F-16 platform had potential to be used quite successly in other roles, and there was a fear that it might be considered "good enough" to cut into the ATF buy. https://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/f-1photos/album11/album28/aae.jpg?m=1371937527 F-16XL was not entered in the ATF competition. It's first mission was SCAMP to investigate efficiency of cranked arrow wings, then competed in ETF -> DRF against the proposed F-15E. I saw one of the airplanes at Dryden about 1998. It was ugly and sad, stuck in a hangar on the north end of the ramp. |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 7:34:28 PM EST
[#5]
Having worked on the F-22 production (and after) from beginning to end, all I can add is a conversation I had with two F-22 pilots who previously flew F-15's. They told me flying an F-15 is like flying in the Iraq AF compared to the F-22.
I doubt if most will ever know the high end capabilities of the F-22 and what it can actually do, but what do I know.... Obongo killed the program, so it is what it is... |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 7:46:51 PM EST
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted: B-17 would be pretty effective against Hamas. They have manpads |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 8:17:50 PM EST
[#7]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've heard 2 stories about French Mirage 2000s being used in exercises. One was that they were claiming kills from way too far away. The other was that German Mig-29s mopped the floor with them. I remember the guy telling that story told it in such a tone he was like, "are we being pranked or did they send us the most incompetent pilots in the country?" The biggest criticism that was placed on the French at Red Flag that I'm aware of is that they were actively using the experience to collect intel on various electronic spectrum capabilities of US systems. To be fair, this was the complaint about the IAF when they were at RF, too. |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 8:26:46 PM EST
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yes. They can't even kill a squadron of Su57. What a joke. Can’t kill something that only exists in Putin’s pipe dreams |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 8:46:02 PM EST
[#9]
I wouldn't say "failed", like a lot of things, overspent and under utilized.
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Posted: 12/14/2023 8:46:26 PM EST
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Can’t kill something that only exists in Putin’s pipe dreams Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Yes. They can't even kill a squadron of Su57. What a joke. Can’t kill something that only exists in Putin’s pipe dreams Excuse me sir. This is the internet. Please be mad. |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 8:47:16 PM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The heavyweight F-15 was better suited for the intended role, however an advanced big wing F-16 platform had potential to be used quite successly in other roles, and there was a fear that it might be considered "good enough" to cut into the ATF buy. https://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/f-16-photos/album11/album28/aae.jpg?m=1371937527 Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Non-concur. Having engine redundancy, which the F-15E has, and the F-16XL has not, is a very important thing for an airframe intended to get down in the weeds and thus be expossed to ground fire and radar-directed anti-aircraft guns. The heavyweight F-15 was better suited for the intended role, however an advanced big wing F-16 platform had potential to be used quite successly in other roles, and there was a fear that it might be considered "good enough" to cut into the ATF buy. https://www.f-16.net/g3/var/resizes/f-16-photos/album11/album28/aae.jpg?m=1371937527 |
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Posted: 12/14/2023 9:00:44 PM EST
[#12]
The F-16XL probably would be really good at F-16 stuff…so there is that.
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Posted: 12/14/2023 9:06:39 PM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Obama killed the program. It's kind of hard to have iterative improvement when the program is shut down and so few were made it doesn't make much sense to spend a bundle developing those upgrades for so few aircraft. If the line had kept going I imagine it would be that much more capable today. This. The only fail related to the F22 is electing Obama and his fundamental change, which allowed him to be in a position to kill the program. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 12:42:14 AM EST
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The biggest criticism that was placed on the French at Red Flag that I'm aware of is that they were actively using the experience to collect intel on various electronic spectrum capabilities of US systems. To be fair, this was the complaint about the IAF when they were at RF, too. Ah, I had not heard about that. But I'm not surprised. It just seems rude to me. Whoever heard of a rude Frenchman?  |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 12:49:44 AM EST
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Having worked on the F-22 production (and after) from beginning to end, all I can add is a conversation I had with two F-22 pilots who previously flew F-15's. They told me flying an F-15 is like flying in the Iraq AF compared to the F-22. I doubt if most will ever know the high end capabilities of the F-22 and what it can actually do, but what do I know.... Obongo killed the program, so it is what it is... @Burnsome- That's pretty damn cool that you were up close and personal with Raptors. I worked in IT for 30 years. Yup... your job was WAY cooler than mine!  |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 1:00:55 AM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Companies don’t have the space, time, or money to preserve any part of the production processes when programs are over. It is industry standard for a reason. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: But fuck it was dumb idea to destroy the tooling. Companies don’t have the space, time, or money to preserve any part of the production processes when programs are over. It is industry standard for a reason. Sorry, not a good enough excuse. The military has warehouses and boneyards all over the country filled with stuff from the 80's and 90's. You really think they couldn't afford to buy another warehouse or three to store critical national assets like that? |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 1:52:54 AM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The biggest criticism that was placed on the French at Red Flag that I'm aware of is that they were actively using the experience to collect intel on various electronic spectrum capabilities of US systems. To be fair, this was the complaint about the IAF when they were at RF, too. It was my experience at Red Flag that the US only used the ES that they wanted to use. Kind of like "Check this shit out, this is a 20% of what we can do, but we're not going go beyond that". |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 2:16:31 AM EST
[#18]
Not to be a French fanboy but in West Africa a year or two ago, those French dudes, (SOF of some sort, hard to equate them to a particular tier) were doing several HALO missions per week with an offset. Walk several kilometers in and wiping out entire terrorist training camps.
Not saying they were as efficient as US guys could have been but we weren’t allowed to even participate outside of ISR platforms. But those French cunts were doing Gods work. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 8:00:37 AM EST
[#19]
I am amazed at how large the control surfaces are and how they rotate on a single point. The stresses on that point when making aggressive maneuvers at high speed must be absolutely insane.
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Posted: 12/15/2023 8:13:29 AM EST
[#20]
Not enough pics in this thread:
  
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:21:40 AM EST
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I am amazed at how large the control surfaces are and how they rotate on a single point. The stresses on that point when making aggressive maneuvers at high speed must be absolutely insane. The elevators use huge axles rotating in trunnion fittings inside the airframe. The rest are hinged. The loads are high, the stresses are normal. These are the best images I can find that show the assembly -   |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:36:29 AM EST
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not enough pics in this thread: https://flyingmag.sfo3.digitaloceanspaces.com/flyingma/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/30124006/6280805.jpg https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/f-22-raptor-flips-and-exposes-belly-as-demo-team-is-about-to-switch-pilots-207688_1.jpg https://www.thearmorylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/f-22-raptor.jpg |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:42:49 AM EST
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, not a good enough excuse. The military has warehouses and boneyards all over the country filled with stuff from the 80's and 90's. You really think they couldn't afford to buy another warehouse or three to store critical national assets like that? Yeezus, we have been over this dozens of times in GD. It wouldn’t matter if production tooling was maintained anyway. The most difficult aspect of production to create, and the most ephemeral to lose, is the “human software” of how to actually accomplish it. That is closely followed by the knowledge and experience of the network of subcontractors and suppliers. As soon as production lines are stopped, those things disappear into the ether as a cohesive group. The costs and effort and time to re-establish it all is at least the same as designing and developing a current-day technology aircraft. Again, there is a reason this is industry standard. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:47:20 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The elevators use huge axles rotating in trunnion fittings inside the airframe. The rest are hinged. The loads are high, the stresses are normal. These are the best images I can find that show the assembly - https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/1000000486-3060143.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/1000000487-3060145.jpg |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:47:51 AM EST
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Yeezus, we have been over this dozens of times in GD. It wouldn't matter if production tooling was maintained anyway. The most difficult aspect of production to create, and the most ephemeral to lose, is the "human software" of how to actually accomplish it. That is closely followed by the knowledge and experience of the network of subcontractors and suppliers. As soon as production lines are stopped, those things disappear into the ether as a cohesive group. The costs and effort and time to re-establish it all is at least the same as designing and developing a current-day technology aircraft. Again, there is a reason this is industry standard. it was and still is possible, it's just not smart. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:49:30 AM EST
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted: #119, correct? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: The elevators use huge axles rotating in trunnion fittings inside the airframe. The rest are hinged. The loads are high, the stresses are normal. These are the best images I can find that show the assembly - https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/1000000486-3060143.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/348/1000000487-3060145.jpg Yes, in the top drawing. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:57:41 AM EST
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: it was and still is possible, it's just not smart. Of course. Anything can be re-manufactured given unlimited time and budget. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 10:41:34 AM EST
[#28]
Wonder what we'll see with the KF-21 if/when that becomes operational (aka F-22 minus 0.5). Of course it doesn't have the the stealth but will probably not have the price tag either.
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Posted: 12/15/2023 12:16:21 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wonder what we'll see with the KF-21 if/when that becomes operational (aka F-22 minus 0.5). Of course it doesn't have the the stealth but will probably not have the price tag either. https://img.gta5-mods.com/q85-w800/images/kai-kf-21-boramae-add-on/89d408-4.jpg Given that the Air Force now wants a separate F-16 replacement instead of the F-35, this might be a good choice. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 8:43:01 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not enough pics in this thread: https://flyingmag.sfo3.digitaloceanspaces.com/flyingma/wp-content/uploads/2022/06/30124006/6280805.jpg https://s1.cdn.autoevolution.com/images/news/f-22-raptor-flips-and-exposes-belly-as-demo-team-is-about-to-switch-pilots-207688_1.jpg https://www.thearmorylife.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/04/f-22-raptor.jpg Damn. It's...beautiful. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:09:40 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Not to be a French fanboy but in West Africa a year or two ago, those French dudes, (SOF of some sort, hard to equate them to a particular tier) were doing several HALO missions per week with an offset. Walk several kilometers in and wiping out entire terrorist training camps. Not saying they were as efficient as US guys could have been but we weren’t allowed to even participate outside of ISR platforms. But those French cunts were doing Gods work. Awesome. 
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:22:34 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Given that the Air Force now wants a separate F-16 replacement instead of the F-35, this might be a good choice. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Wonder what we'll see with the KF-21 if/when that becomes operational (aka F-22 minus 0.5). Of course it doesn't have the the stealth but will probably not have the price tag either. https://img.gta5-mods.com/q85-w800/images/kai-kf-21-boramae-add-on/89d408-4.jpg Given that the Air Force now wants a separate F-16 replacement instead of the F-35, this might be a good choice. I'm afraid domestic production will influence the right folks to quash that line of thinking in short order. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:27:27 PM EST
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Know very little about the KF-21 to say it can replace the F-16 (it does say it was to replace Korea's F4), but even if it can I would highly doubt it, only because I can't think of one instance where the US EVER adopted a foreign fighter jet. I'm afraid domestic production will influence the right folks to quash that line of thinking in short order. Harrier doesn't count? I know they were ultimately an American made aircraft. But I'm pretty sure they started out as some British mad science experiment. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:29:49 PM EST
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Wonder what we'll see with the KF-21 if/when that becomes operational (aka F-22 minus 0.5). Of course it doesn't have the the stealth but will probably not have the price tag either. https://img.gta5-mods.com/q85-w800/images/kai-kf-21-boramae-add-on/89d408-4.jpg The production version will have internal weapons bays, so its LO characteristics should be much better than that of the prototype in the photo. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:40:15 PM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We only NEED a few F22s. Once they are on station, the opposing force gets decimated. Used as a force multiplier along with other aircraft the job is getting done. The opposing force/threat soon is depleted and lessor airplanes can then do the job. The addition of new technologies and modern aircraft (F35 etc) meant that the numbers first proposed are just not needed. We can do more with less. (I started working on the ATF program in the mid 80s and by then we had most of the design work figured out). If they are limited to using big fixed bases like Anderson in Guam, they'll get wiped out on the ground when a shooting war starts. The Air Force knows this, so they're trying like hell to implement an aircraft dispersal capability like the Swedish have had for decades. Most aircraft are vulnerable to FOD damage to their engines; F-22's entire airframe is vulnerable because you can't knick the LO coating, and maintenance of said coating is impossible without a huge booth and bunny suits. Which means F-22 isn't going to operate off stretches of highway or semi-improved WWII bomber bases. Given emerging CONOPS for shenanigans inside the first island chain, F-22 is not the best fit. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 9:58:21 PM EST
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Know very little about the KF-21 to say it can replace the F-16 (it does say it was to replace Korea's F4), but even if it can I would highly doubt it, only because I can't think of one instance where the US EVER adopted a foreign fighter jet. I'm afraid domestic production will influence the right folks to quash that line of thinking in short order. Goshawk and Harrier. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 10:17:48 PM EST
[#37]
 DHC-5 Buffalo - carries fighters  Noorduyn Norseman The T-7A is half SAAB and will likely be the next lightweight fighter. T-45 is a variant from a long line of British airplanes that include a couple of small fighters. The Beech T-6 is derived from a Pilatus airplane. Although not likely, a foreign built fighter in US service is not impossible if the stars align. |
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Posted: 12/15/2023 10:22:40 PM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Sorry, not a good enough excuse. The military has warehouses and boneyards all over the country filled with stuff from the 80's and 90's. You really think they couldn't afford to buy another warehouse or three to store critical national assets like that? We supposedly did store the tooling for the f22. |
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Posted: 12/16/2023 6:06:21 PM EST
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Goshawk and Harrier. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Know very little about the KF-21 to say it can replace the F-16 (it does say it was to replace Korea's F4), but even if it can I would highly doubt it, only because I can't think of one instance where the US EVER adopted a foreign fighter jet. I'm afraid domestic production will influence the right folks to quash that line of thinking in short order. Goshawk and Harrier. But also don't think the industrial complex would let a foreign fighter be a replacement for a large portion of our fighter force. |
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Posted: 12/16/2023 6:20:10 PM EST
[#40]
No. It would dominate the skies. Luckily we never fought a war that needed it. I'd rather not fight wars. But if we do, I'd rather we have modern equipment.
Our big problem was not allowing Japan and Australia to purchase them. That may have brought the cost down, and saved the program from being cancelled early. |
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