What Is So Bad About A Chicken-Wing Shooting Position? - Page 3

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What Is So Bad About A Chicken-Wing Shooting Position? (Page 3 of 3)

Posted: 6/22/2009 2:24:56 PM EST

[#1]

Quoted:

Quoted:
R. Lee Ermey has one hell of a chicken wing, at least when shooting an AK. Seems to suit him just fine.

R Lee was a pogue

I thought he was a drill seargeant?

DI is B billet or something you do part of your career or recruiting of Barracks duty. And DI is still pogue duty. He was a supply clerk If I read his bio right.

Posted: 6/22/2009 2:24:59 PM EST

[#2]

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Posted: 6/22/2009 2:33:00 PM EST

[#3]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Skeet means shit. It is a sport that the vast majority of the shooting public never does.

The shotgun sports are probably the most widespread shooting sports not only in the US, but in the world. Also, different sports have different followings in various regions. Out here in NE OH, there are mainly rifle and pistol shooters. But go to IL and you'll find that shotguns are a much, much bigger deal.

That aside, yes, the whole point that seems to be lost on most of the people here - even after being repeated many times - is that different types of shooting make better use of different stances. Trying to say that the exact same stance should be used in both long-range slow-fire bullseye competition and shorter-range rapid-fire practical disciplines is silly. I guess maybe I should use the exact same grip with my revolvers as I do with my pistols.

I said SKEET not all shotgun sports HUGE difference.

Posted: 6/22/2009 2:36:10 PM EST

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

LOL I personally don't give a damn what these CQB instructors at courses train people on. They I am sure don't give a shit how I train people. I think as long as people are accurate and CONSISTENT that is what matters. What chaps my ass though is people that say my type of shooting proves that what you were taught as a Marine is wrong. Especially when the shooting sport they are referring to is stationary range shooting.

Be safe
Be consistent
Be accurate I don't give a damn what you look like if you are combining all 3

Posted: 6/22/2009 2:44:39 PM EST

[#5]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Skeet means shit. It is a sport that the vast majority of the shooting public never does.

The shotgun sports are probably the most widespread shooting sports not only in the US, but in the world. Also, different sports have different followings in various regions. Out here in NE OH, there are mainly rifle and pistol shooters. But go to IL and you'll find that shotguns are a much, much bigger deal.

That aside, yes, the whole point that seems to be lost on most of the people here - even after being repeated many times - is that different types of shooting make better use of different stances. Trying to say that the exact same stance should be used in both long-range slow-fire bullseye competition and shorter-range rapid-fire practical disciplines is silly. I guess maybe I should use the exact same grip with my revolvers as I do with my pistols.

I said SKEET not all shotgun sports HUGE difference.

Skeet is one of two primary shotgun sports - the other being Trap. These are the two base games for the shotgun sports; the only other real events being 5-stand and full-course sporting clays. Others are just variations on the basics.

Hey, guess what three shotgun events are shot in the Olympics? Trap, doubles trap, and - yep - skeet.

Posted: 6/22/2009 4:14:48 PM EST

[#6]

I have practically no formal training in shooting stances, but read lots of stuff and used that to figure it all out for myself what works and what doesn't.

the above comments about not leaning into the rifle or even leaning back are wrong. I found for myself that when you lean into the rifle it seems to make a harder, more stable shoulder pocket (and you're going to feel more recoil) that for some reason does indeed enhance accuracy. I don't have an explanation, but no matter what the position, when recoil goes into a soft shoulder, accuracy suffers.

the above comments about using "body structure, not muscles" and "blading" etc. etc. are wrong. you trying to establish stable bone support structure just like any other position, it's just that when standing, your needs and the possible stances will vary greatly. you do not "blade", you twist your torso so the muscles stabilize your spine, making it more rigid.

I found that the chicken wing improves shoulder pocket characteristics because, if anything, the trapezius muscle is taut and stiffens the shoulder. also the elbow provides a counterweigtht to reduce side-to-side wobble. seriously, if for some wierd reason you need to stand while making a long distance precision shot, you might want to hang something heavy off your elbow.

the best standing stance I found for target shooting employs all these characteristics: greatly twisted torso (sometimes feet almost 90 degree angle from aim), feet spread fairly wide, sort of T-stance, chicken wing, leaning into anticipated recoil as much as possible without overextending, no flinching at all. it can get very tiring.

from there, change things to suit your situational needs.

Posted: 6/22/2009 4:17:11 PM EST

[#7]

Quoted:
Nothing. It's proper form for accurate rifle fire. A lot of people don't know any better and like to blab on and make themselves look stupid. Personally, I let them go right on ahead.

Concur. For rifle shooting, the chicken wing in the air forms a pocket that the rifle butt sits in nicely. Now, for entry and combat shooting, tuck both elbows in (universal shooting position).

Posted: 6/22/2009 4:17:12 PM EST

[#8]

Quoted:
Nothing. It's proper form for accurate rifle fire. A lot of people don't know any better and like to blab on and make themselves look stupid. Personally, I let them go right on ahead.

Concur. For rifle shooting, the chicken wing in the air forms a pocket that the rifle butt sits in nicely. Now, for entry and combat shooting, tuck both elbows in (universal shooting position).

Posted: 6/22/2009 4:33:33 PM EST

[#9]

Quoted:
I have practically no formal training in shooting stances, but read lots of stuff and used that to figure it all out for myself what works and what doesn't.

the above comments about not leaning into the rifle or even leaning back are wrong. I found for myself that when you lean into the rifle it seems to make a harder, more stable shoulder pocket (and you're going to feel more recoil) that for some reason does indeed enhance accuracy. I don't have an explanation, but no matter what the position, when recoil goes into a soft shoulder, accuracy suffers.

the above comments about using "body structure, not muscles" and "blading" etc. etc. are wrong. you trying to establish stable bone support structure just like any other position, it's just that when standing, your needs and the possible stances will vary greatly. you do not "blade", you twist your torso so the muscles stabilize your spine, making it more rigid.

I found that the chicken wing improves shoulder pocket characteristics because, if anything, the trapezius muscle is taut and stiffens the shoulder. also the elbow provides a counterweigtht to reduce side-to-side wobble. seriously, if for some wierd reason you need to stand while making a long distance precision shot, you might want to hang something heavy off your elbow.

the best standing stance I found for target shooting employs all these characteristics: greatly twisted torso (sometimes feet almost 90 degree angle from aim), feet spread fairly wide, sort of T-stance, chicken wing, leaning into anticipated recoil as much as possible without overextending, no flinching at all. it can get very tiring.

from there, change things to suit your situational needs.

The more muscles you use to stabilize your position the faster fatigue will set in. So your statement about "body structure" being wrong is wrong.

Posted: 6/22/2009 5:11:34 PM EST

[#10]

Quoted:
Hunting,shooting for accuracy (aka competition), birding... chicken wing it
trying not to get shot- tuck it.

not a hard concept, i can switch back and forth with no issue depending on what i am doing or how my position requires me to shoot from ( off hand, kneeling, tree stand,blind etc). I also dont like shooting "real" guns ( ones with recoil) tucked,becuase it lets the stock slip to much under recoil, but that's just me.

sometimes it doesnt always have to be a hsld vs hdls thing guys..

With full power rifles like a .300 mag , .308 and .30-06 you have to chicken wing to keep the rifles butt in the shoulder pocket. the ar-15/ak-47 with its lower recoil doesn't require this.

keep in mind rifles like the FAL, G3, M14 etc weren't designed for CQB. Neither was the m16 but its been pressed into that service.

Posted: 6/22/2009 5:23:45 PM EST

[#11]

it makes you "smaller" and less likely to get tagged by something if you are moving & shooting.

It also makes you more stable, AKA less weight hanging out.

Posted: 6/22/2009 5:45:16 PM EST

[#12]

Quoted:

it makes you "smaller" and less likely to get tagged by something if you are moving & shooting.

It also makes you more stable, AKA less weight hanging out.

More stable?

When you are losing your balance do you tuck your arms in?

If you were walking a tight rope or a high up narrow blank between two roof tops do you tuck your arms in? Fuck no!

You guys just make shit up.

Posted: 6/22/2009 6:12:27 PM EST

[#13]

Quoted:
The more muscles you use to stabilize your position the faster fatigue will set in.

yep, I know that.

Quoted:
So your statement about "body structure" being wrong is wrong.

no, it's not wrong. you use stable bone structure, and stabilize that with muscles. so that nothing directly relies on muscles for stability.
you can call that combination "body structure" if you want, but it's inaccurate, misleading. might as well call it "your body".

Posted: 6/22/2009 7:03:34 PM EST

[#14]

Quoted:
I'm just going to copypasta my post from the other thread...

The entire stance of a target shooter is different from practical or defensive shooting. Leaning back for proper weapon balance is important for target shooting. Leaning forward for improved recoil control in follow-up shots is more important for practical shooting. Target shooters also tend to shoot more across the body than directly in front of it. The differences in the rest of the stance can affect strong arm positioning.

I have been told that bringing your strong arm down (when in a practical-type stance) provides a more stable platform and improves recoil control for rapid-fire. Intuitively, this makes perfect sense - bringing your arms into the body, as much underneath and behind the rifle as possible, would seem to provide stability since everything is in tight together.

Posted: 6/22/2009 7:19:55 PM EST

[#15]

Quoted:
I have practically no formal training in shooting stances, but read lots of stuff and used that to figure it all out for myself what works and what doesn't.

the above comments about not leaning into the rifle or even leaning back are wrong. I found for myself that when you lean into the rifle it seems to make a harder, more stable shoulder pocket (and you're going to feel more recoil) that for some reason does indeed enhance accuracy. I don't have an explanation, but no matter what the position, when recoil goes into a soft shoulder, accuracy suffers.

the above comments about using "body structure, not muscles" and "blading" etc. etc. are wrong. you trying to establish stable bone support structure just like any other position, it's just that when standing, your needs and the possible stances will vary greatly. you do not "blade", you twist your torso so the muscles stabilize your spine, making it more rigid.

I found that the chicken wing improves shoulder pocket characteristics because, if anything, the trapezius muscle is taut and stiffens the shoulder. also the elbow provides a counterweigtht to reduce side-to-side wobble. seriously, if for some wierd reason you need to stand while making a long distance precision shot, you might want to hang something heavy off your elbow.

the best standing stance I found for target shooting employs all these characteristics: greatly twisted torso (sometimes feet almost 90 degree angle from aim), feet spread fairly wide, sort of T-stance, chicken wing, leaning into anticipated recoil as much as possible without overextending, no flinching at all. it can get very tiring.

from there, change things to suit your situational needs.

When you have a shooting coat, you sort of slouch backwards into it (for target shooting, when you have plenty of time). If the wind is up, things become more upright.

Posted: 6/22/2009 7:55:53 PM EST

[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Elbows in is more practical with body armor, low caliber rifles in tactical mode.

Try shooting with accuracy using a non-pistol grip rifle without chicken-winging. It's completely un-natural.

Also, try not chicken-winging while standing sideways or perpendicular. That's not as natural either. There are circumstances where one would be better standing sideways (especially without body armor), as it offers less torso to the adversary.

I don't have any empircal data, but my guess is that the popularity of the forward facing stance has a lot to do with the ubiquity of body armor and pistol grips. Facing forward however presents a larger target and more exposed vitals.

So even in a tactical situation, forward facing, arms tucked is not ALWAYS good.

In a threat situation your body automatically wants to orient itself towards the threat. Then you go into tunnel vision mode. The forward facing stance uses your natural reaction as a basis as oposed to the weaver stance that fights against your natural instinct. Nature + nurture aids in the effectiveness of this stance.

I heard somewhere, that the Texas DPS studied videos of people shooting pistols under stress or possibly under fire and no one actually used the Weaver regardless of whether they trained to it or not. It was said they now only train to isocelese since that is what everyone would use naturally.

Know if that's true?

Posted: 6/22/2009 8:09:11 PM EST

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Elbows in is more practical with body armor, low caliber rifles in tactical mode.

Try shooting with accuracy using a non-pistol grip rifle without chicken-winging. It's completely un-natural.

Also, try not chicken-winging while standing sideways or perpendicular. That's not as natural either. There are circumstances where one would be better standing sideways (especially without body armor), as it offers less torso to the adversary.

I don't have any empircal data, but my guess is that the popularity of the forward facing stance has a lot to do with the ubiquity of body armor and pistol grips. Facing forward however presents a larger target and more exposed vitals.

So even in a tactical situation, forward facing, arms tucked is not ALWAYS good.

In a threat situation your body automatically wants to orient itself towards the threat. Then you go into tunnel vision mode. The forward facing stance uses your natural reaction as a basis as oposed to the weaver stance that fights against your natural instinct. Nature + nurture aids in the effectiveness of this stance.

I heard somewhere, that the Texas DPS studied videos of people shooting pistols under stress or possibly under fire and no one actually used the Weaver regardless of whether they trained to it or not. It was said they now only train to isocelese since that is what everyone would use naturally.

Know if that's true?

When I'm moving I tend to use Weaver, but when standing still I'll use Isosceles. However my two-way shooting didn't involve pistols much, mostly rifles and other long arms.

Posted: 6/22/2009 9:45:37 PM EST

[#18]

The explanation is that to continually remain accurate, the best positions are those which do not require a lot of muscle. You want your body structure to support the weapon, not muscle. When you chicken wing, you're unnecessarily using a bunch of muscle and energy to keep your elbow up in your shooting position

Back in the day, before I came to a country which considered air rifles to be childrens' toys, I partook in Olympic Air Rifle. Precision shooting which relies very much on the use of bone structure, not muscles. Granted, I personally had a much higher elbow position than most shooters, but you will find that whilst the majority do use a lower position, the high position is considered a viable technique. I always found that the butt would fit far better into my shoulder with the high position. I may have used more arm muscle to keep the arm up, but I used less muscle keeping the butt in the shoulder socket. Rob Peter, or pay Paul?

Of course, ISSF is not exactly tactical shooting, so as others have pointed out, horses for courses. On the other hand, the question of 'exposure vs accuracy' is a long-running one which has not yet been sorted out. (See the arguments over weak-sided shooting from behind cover)

he above comments about using "body structure, not muscles" and "blading" etc. etc. are wrong.

Utterly disagree. The standard Olympic stance has the weight of the rifle go a straight line down the bones from the wrist, forearm, elbow, hip, lead leg, ankle. All but none of the weight is taken by the muscles, they're just used to keep yourself upright and to aim.

NTM

Posted: 6/22/2009 9:50:02 PM EST

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Nope, I am amused, not bitter.

Posted: 6/22/2009 9:53:18 PM EST

[#20]

It's not tactical enough.

It's 30 percent less tactical than shooting with your elbows tucked in.

Posted: 6/22/2009 10:09:12 PM EST

[#21]

This thread has officially caused me to become hungry.

Posted: 6/23/2009 12:07:36 AM EST

[#22]

Quoted:
My wife does the chicken wing. I don't care as long as she goes to the range with me.

http://home.mchsi.com/%7Ethe_reaper/LeeAnn_MAK90.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/%7Ethe_reaper/wife3.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/~chevelle/clay4.jpg

your wife likes to lean back when she shoots. thats wrong too.....

Posted: 6/23/2009 1:27:15 AM EST

[#23]

Quoted:
When you have a shooting coat, you sort of slouch backwards into it (for target shooting, when you have plenty of time). If the wind is up, things become more upright.

right, and those are padded with lead powder, aren't they? I think the weight of the lead negates the need (or so I would say) to lean forward into recoil. plus, they want to do that thing where the support elbow rests on the hip, so their support hand (with leaded glove) is more stable. very important. have to lean backward to do that.

Posted: 6/23/2009 1:32:36 AM EST

[#24]

Quoted:

the above comments about using "body structure, not muscles" and "blading" etc. etc. are wrong.

Utterly disagree. The standard Olympic stance has the weight of the rifle go a straight line down the bones from the wrist, forearm, elbow, hip, lead leg, ankle. All but none of the weight is taken by the muscles, they're just used to keep yourself upright and to aim.

NTM

wtf?? that's exactly what I said, you aren't disagreeing, you are agreeing

Posted: 6/23/2009 1:56:08 AM EST

[#25]

MMmmmmm, chicken wings.

To me, the winner of the fight has the right to claim that his stance was superior. The loser cannot dispute this.

Posted: 6/23/2009 2:48:38 AM EST

[#26]

About a year or so ago I was out at the range. I was plinking away at a silouhette target at 50 yards standing. I was doing double and triple taps COM. Aftrer each shot sequence I would hear some guy yelling "GET YOUR CHICKEN WINGS DOWN!!!"

I ignored it at first, thinking he was refering to another shooter, but when I realized that I was the only one on the line, I knew he was obviously yelling at me. So I kept tapping away at the target. He kept on about my "DAMN CHICKENWINGS". Now something I must point out is that I never saw the stupid bastard before, or since.

When it came time for a mag change, I turned to look directly at him. Remembering to keep my rifle downrange (safety is paramount), I yelled "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE" while giving him the finger.

That sums up the chicken wing debate for me....

Posted: 6/23/2009 3:09:03 AM EST

[#27]

Originally Posted By KC-130 FLT ENG:

About a year or so ago I was out at the range. I was plinking away at a silouhette target at 50 yards standing. I was doing double and triple taps COM. Aftrer each shot sequence I would hear some guy yelling "GET YOUR CHICKEN WINGS DOWN!!!"

I ignored it at first, thinking he was refering to another shooter, but when I realized that I was the only one on the line, I knew he was obviously yelling at me. So I kept tapping away at the target. He kept on about my "DAMN CHICKENWINGS". Now something I must point out is that I never saw the stupid bastard before, or since.

When it came time for a mag change, I turned to look directly at him. Remembering to keep my rifle downrange (safety is paramount), I yelled "FUCK YOU ASSHOLE" while giving him the finger.

That sums up the chicken wing debate for me....

You have a way with words.

Posted: 6/23/2009 3:11:40 AM EST

[#28]

Quoted:
Aside from the many high-speed operators (aka fat fuck couch commandos) on ARFCOM that need to worry about hitting their elbow on doorways, what's so bad about a chicken-wing position of shooting?

There is nothing wrong with it. Lots of women shooters use it.

Carry on.

Posted: 6/23/2009 4:29:21 AM EST

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Nope, I am amused, not bitter.

Just a comment, if I may, my friend.

I "paid a lot of money" for "a lot of training", but that doesn't make me "kewl" or anything else, except educated.

Clint Smith explained the advantages of keeping your elbows tucked in when going down halls and shooting around corners and trying to give as small an exposure to the bad guy as possible.

But then, as he always does, he said that we could do whatever seemed best to us.

I tuck mine in in certain situations, and I leave it sticking out there to help set up a good rifle butt pocket when shooting off hand at the range.

And, I don't think I am "better" than anyone else in either case.

Posted: 6/23/2009 4:57:21 AM EST

[#30]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Nope, I am amused, not bitter.

Just a comment, if I may, my friend.

I "paid a lot of money" for "a lot of training", but that doesn't make me "kewl" or anything else, except educated.

Clint Smith explained the advantages of keeping your elbows tucked in when going down halls and shooting around corners and trying to give as small an exposure to the bad guy as possible.

But then, as he always does, he said that we could do whatever seemed best to us.

I tuck mine in in certain situations, and I leave it sticking out there to help set up a good rifle butt pocket when shooting off hand at the range.And, I don't think I am "better" than anyone else in either case.

Just wanted to make sure folks read that again. Wise words, from experience.

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:06:18 AM EST

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
When you have a shooting coat, you sort of slouch backwards into it (for target shooting, when you have plenty of time). If the wind is up, things become more upright.

right, and those are padded with lead powder, aren't they? I think the weight of the lead negates the need (or so I would say) to lean forward into recoil. plus, they want to do that thing where the support elbow rests on the hip, so their support hand (with leaded glove) is more stable. very important. have to lean backward to do that.

I've shot smallbore and NRA Highpower––never seen a coat or glove with lead in it (or any other weight) and I don't think that there is one in any of the other rifle sports. The rifles are generally pretty heavy though. 15lbs and up.

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:07:16 AM EST

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Nope, I am amused, not bitter.

Just a comment, if I may, my friend.

I "paid a lot of money" for "a lot of training", but that doesn't make me "kewl" or anything else, except educated.

Clint Smith explained the advantages of keeping your elbows tucked in when going down halls and shooting around corners and trying to give as small an exposure to the bad guy as possible.

But then, as he always does, he said that we could do whatever seemed best to us.

I tuck mine in in certain situations, and I leave it sticking out there to help set up a good rifle butt pocket when shooting off hand at the range.

And, I don't think I am "better" than anyone else in either case.

Sounds to me like Clint Smith has the experience to know what is important.

Most of the guys I have trained with nobody here has heard of - the only established trainer's name I have seen come across these forums is Max Joseph - and I think even he only does LEO and Military. I remember specifically Joseph laughing off the "isosceles versus weaver" debates for pistols as childish, in that people will find a positions that works for them, and in reality is is usually somewhere in between. As long as your fundamentals are solid and it works for you, let the results speak for themselves.

NEVER have I trained under someone who is as dogmatic about the "small stuff" as apparently some are, based on these kind of threads. My gut tells me the weaker instructors, who have less to offer in terms of practical performance improvement, are the ones who focus more on the small stuff.

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:11:58 AM EST

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Nope, I am amused, not bitter.

Just a comment, if I may, my friend.

I "paid a lot of money" for "a lot of training", but that doesn't make me "kewl" or anything else, except educated.

Clint Smith explained the advantages of keeping your elbows tucked in when going down halls and shooting around corners and trying to give as small an exposure to the bad guy as possible.

But then, as he always does, he said that we could do whatever seemed best to us.

I tuck mine in in certain situations, and I leave it sticking out there to help set up a good rifle butt pocket when shooting off hand at the range.

And, I don't think I am "better" than anyone else in either case.

Sounds to me like Clint Smith has the experience to know what is important.

Most of the guys I have trained with nobody here has heard of - the only established trainer's name I have seen come across these forums is Max Joseph - and I think even he only does LEO and Military. I remember specifically Joseph laughing off the "isosceles versus weaver" debates for pistols as childish, in that people will find a positions that works for them, and in reality is is usually somewhere in between. As long as you fundamental are solid and it works for you, let the results speak for themselves.

NEVER have I trained under someone who is as dogmatic about the "small stuff" as apparently some are bases on these kind of threads. My gut tells me the weaker instructors, who have less to offer in terms of practical performance improvement, are the ones who focus more on the small stuff.

Maybe you didn't notice, with all that talking about whatever, but I clearly stated that tucking your elbows in is 30% more tactical than doing them like chicken wings.

You know, if you're not willing to use the best practices, i mean hell, something as simple as tucking your f-ing elbows then you probably shouldn't own guns at all.

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:15:20 AM EST

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Nope, I am amused, not bitter.

Just a comment, if I may, my friend.

I "paid a lot of money" for "a lot of training", but that doesn't make me "kewl" or anything else, except educated.

Clint Smith explained the advantages of keeping your elbows tucked in when going down halls and shooting around corners and trying to give as small an exposure to the bad guy as possible.

But then, as he always does, he said that we could do whatever seemed best to us.

I tuck mine in in certain situations, and I leave it sticking out there to help set up a good rifle butt pocket when shooting off hand at the range.

And, I don't think I am "better" than anyone else in either case.

Sounds to me like Clint Smith has the experience to know what is important.

Most of the guys I have trained with nobody here has heard of - the only established trainer's name I have seen come across these forums is Max Joseph - and I think even he only does LEO and Military. I remember specifically Joseph laughing off the "isosceles versus weaver" debates for pistols as childish, in that people will find a positions that works for them, and in reality is is usually somewhere in between. As long as you fundamental are solid and it works for you, let the results speak for themselves.

NEVER have I trained under someone who is as dogmatic about the "small stuff" as apparently some are bases on these kind of threads. My gut tells me the weaker instructors, who have less to offer in terms of practical performance improvement, are the ones who focus more on the small stuff.

Maybe you didn't notice, with all that talking about whatever, but I clearly stated that tucking your elbows in is 30% more tactical than doing them like chicken wings.

You know, if you're not willing to use the best practices, i mean hell, something as simple as tucking your f-ing elbows then you probably shouldn't own guns at all.

Well, since you are in China you are obviously a Communist plant. Your opinion is not valid. Besides, China has its own way of being "tactical" - [Insert tactical Seqway picture here]

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:17:49 AM EST

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
My wife does the chicken wing. I don't care as long as she goes to the range with me.

http://home.mchsi.com/%7Ethe_reaper/LeeAnn_MAK90.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/%7Ethe_reaper/wife3.jpg

http://home.mchsi.com/~chevelle/clay4.jpg

your wife likes to lean back when she shoots. thats wrong too.....

Unless you shoot ISSF.

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:21:03 AM EST

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
All the kewl kids paid a lot of money (or want you to think they did) to have a self-proclaimed guru tell them it is necessary.

Now they have to vociferously defend that position or they will be forced to admit to themselves that they wasted their money on that "combat ranch" experience.
If they didn't set themselves apart, how would the rest of us recognize just how kewl and tactical they are?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but it sounds like you've got a bad case of sour grapes there.

Nope, I am amused, not bitter.

Just a comment, if I may, my friend.

I "paid a lot of money" for "a lot of training", but that doesn't make me "kewl" or anything else, except educated.

Clint Smith explained the advantages of keeping your elbows tucked in when going down halls and shooting around corners and trying to give as small an exposure to the bad guy as possible.

But then, as he always does, he said that we could do whatever seemed best to us.

I tuck mine in in certain situations, and I leave it sticking out there to help set up a good rifle butt pocket when shooting off hand at the range.

And, I don't think I am "better" than anyone else in either case.

Sounds to me like Clint Smith has the experience to know what is important.

Most of the guys I have trained with nobody here has heard of - the only established trainer's name I have seen come across these forums is Max Joseph - and I think even he only does LEO and Military. I remember specifically Joseph laughing off the "isosceles versus weaver" debates for pistols as childish, in that people will find a positions that works for them, and in reality is is usually somewhere in between. As long as you fundamental are solid and it works for you, let the results speak for themselves.

NEVER have I trained under someone who is as dogmatic about the "small stuff" as apparently some are bases on these kind of threads. My gut tells me the weaker instructors, who have less to offer in terms of practical performance improvement, are the ones who focus more on the small stuff.

Maybe you didn't notice, with all that talking about whatever, but I clearly stated that tucking your elbows in is 30% more tactical than doing them like chicken wings.

You know, if you're not willing to use the best practices, i mean hell, something as simple as tucking your f-ing elbows then you probably shouldn't own guns at all.

Well, since you are in China you are obviously a Communist plant. Your opinion is not valid. Besides, China has its own way of being "tactical" - [Insert tactical Seqway picture here]

Why do you keep talking about communists? Typical liberal BS, "your opinion is not valid" Only liberal opinions are valid huh? and what's with the quotation marks? "tactical" ???? Maybe that's a warm up for "right to bear arms" or "freedom of religion."

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:22:30 AM EST

[#37]

nevermind

Posted: 6/23/2009 6:25:08 AM EST

[#38]

During our tac training, I banged my elbow on a door frame in one scenario, and took a sim round to the forearm in another while clearing rooms with a shotgun.
I keep my arms tucked in for defensive shooting scenarios now.

ETA: We were never instructed to tuck our arms in.
Quite the opposite in fact - we were told to chicken wing for recoil control.
The Lt at the range noticed my change in stance and asked my reasons.
After explaining them, he nodded and said "As long as it works for you."
That is to echo what Bohr_Adam said above.

Posted: 6/23/2009 7:01:24 AM EST

[#39]

Quoted:
Maybe you didn't notice, with all that talking about whatever, but I clearly stated that tucking your elbows in is 30% more tactical than doing them like chicken wings.

you can do it either way if you're on a segway!

Posted: 6/23/2009 7:15:54 AM EST

[#40]

Quoted:

Just a comment, if I may, my friend.

I "paid a lot of money" for "a lot of training", but that doesn't make me "kewl" or anything else, except educated.

Clint Smith explained the advantages of keeping your elbows tucked in when going down halls and shooting around corners and trying to give as small an exposure to the bad guy as possible.

But then, as he always does, he said that we could do whatever seemed best to us.

I tuck mine in in certain situations, and I leave it sticking out there to help set up a good rifle butt pocket when shooting off hand at the range.

And, I don't think I am "better" than anyone else in either case.

You are not among the ones to whom I was referring, my friend. You are too much the gentleman to enage in the common "You're doing it wrong, amateur!" posts that pictures of a chicken-wing inevitably provoke.

Advocates of either/neither position are fine; it's the zealous evangelists that answer the question no one asked that I am mocking.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - What Is So Bad About A Chicken-Wing Shooting Position? (Page 3 of 3)

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