And how do they value their own life more than religion? They need to be given an alternative to religion. And how are given that alternative? They are taught. What do we call it when people are taught something? They are educated.  

You raise one boy in bumfuck Pakistan without any schooling but that which comes from the Koran. You raise another in the same area but you send him to a school at a young age and educate him on reading, writing, math, science, literature. By the time they are 16, which one is more likely to shoot a girl in the face because she wants to learn how to read?

You nailed it.  Care to elaborate further?  



 

You're not Matthew McConaughey and this isn't True Detective, this is a discussion about history and politics and culture. So you can stop using terms from physics to cover up that you don't know what you're talking about.

How was Great Britain able to conquer India? Which individuals of the British govt allowed that to happen? Were they diplomats? Or Generals? Who is Charles Cornwallis and what role did he have in India? Who is Arthur Wellesley and what role did he have in India?

Math and physics isn't going answer these questions, a study of history will. Hit the books.

To use such a description of a young girl who was brave enough to challenge the Taliban, to call her a cunt who needs to go back to the kitchen, wow. You seem to be a most erudite individual, who chooses his word choice carefully ensure his message is clear. Clearly someone I'm proud to call a fellow American. You bring great credit upon Arfcom and I'm sure everyone in your life is happy to know you.

I will freely admit my ignorance of the details of india's conquest, my use of a "physics term" was in no way an attempt to obfuscate

it was used to illustrate a very simple pillar of my world view: that existence is a race, and whoever is ahead at any given time is judged superior

It's amazing that no early American explorers got credit for discovering I-95.  Or comment on all the power lines.

I spent almost 20 years in rural Oklahoma.  I must be a fucking SUPER GENIUS when it comes to Norwegian culture.

And like all races, the winner doesn't mean they are superior in all things, simply those that allowed them to win whatever type of race it was. In that I'll agree wholeheartedly. But that doesn't mean we can come back hundreds of years after the race and claim that the winner of the race was clearly a superior civilization, ideologically (which is what plenty of posters in this thread are doing), attempting to state that western civilization is inherently more peaceful or ordered, and that we more civilized than they are. No.

In the case of India it was largely won through the abilities of red coat regiments carrying Brown Bess muskets with fixed bayonets. The Indians had nothing that could counter a group of infantry that would weather point blank artillery fire with cannister shot while maintaining disciplined rank and file, marching through a storm of hell, without flinching, to stop, level firelocks under command, and fire one volley and then charge violently. Even with British officers commanding native infantry they had limited success replicating that ability; with native officers it was near impossible. These cultural lessons that allowed Europeans to perform such maneuvers were the result of hundreds of years of military innovation dating back to the formation of pike and shot squares during the tumultuous 16th century and its wars of religion, the time some other posters think everything was peaceful. Where close order drill was reinforced and emphasized, culminating in the reforms of Frederick the Great, who drilled his men so fiercely that we forever associate disciplined and trained soldiers with perfectly synchronized marching. That became the standard of Europeans, and they used it to take over the world.

thats what i thought.

gee build schools, that will fix it.

marie harf must be your spirit animal

Bingo.

Secularism/"Moderate" religion caused the downfall of fundamentalist crazy-ness.

1is none, 2 is 1.

I never claimed that education alone would effect the necessary change...from the beginning I've been firmly in the "both" camp.  Nor have I said it's the only solution.  So you're middle comment is borrowing from the CNN playbook again.

I have no idea who marie harf is.  I must need to spend more time in Afghanistan learning about Indian culture.

I'm not interested in any efforts to determine ideological superiority based in retroactive moral analysis. Looking back in time, I will agree that the winner is just that and that victory doesn't necessarily confer ideological superiority. I would however argue that victory serves as prima facie evidence of ideological superiority, because results are the only meaningful metric of ideology.

so what are you going to teach them?  the world doesnt belong to allah, the koran is false and mohammad a false prophet?

Just popping in to say I love steinhab.

Tomorrow's the day you say that

Hell, just make sure they can read, then give them books, we've only been sharing knowledge and wisdom that way for thousands of years.  The point isn't to force them into thinking a certain way...can't be done...the point is to give them ideas other than "KILL THE INFADELS!" and "I LOVE YOU GOAT!"

The true learning can't begin until they start asking questions themselves.

Until then, we keep killing the terrorists they breed.

Or we give up and nuke 'em all.

But only after hundreds of years of bad experiences where we found out that religion is mostly bullshit, and that those things that replaced it, Nationalism, Socialism, and other -isms, are also bullshit. We as a culture have reached a zen state, deciding that we don't want to fight horrible wars anymore, that we want to turn out swords into plowshares.

But much of the world has not reached that point, they haven't suffered enough to even yet learn that their religion is a joke. The 20th century almost convinced them, when concepts of Arab Nationalism replaced sectarian religion, but then backlash from diehard religious zealots ended that. In my mind I see this as the last dying breath of Islam. The world is going to progress, the Singularity is going to happen some day. A reliable form of energy that isn't oil will eventually be created. Those within Islam, exposed to western culture, they see that, they see that our culture has progressed largely past religion and the other -isms, and it scares the fucking shit out of them. They don't see it as simply losing their religion, but their very culture. So they are fighting back. But they wont cut the head off progress, or throw it off a building, they can't stop change. No one can. Fight it all you want, things wont stay the same or go back to the "good 'ol days." Muslim extremists are going to have to learn this, the question is how best to teach them. To drop down to their level means throwing away the very ideals that made us more effective in the first place. We can contain them, let them burn themselves out.

Mussolini, Hitler, Stalin, Mao, all came to power awash a major revolution of public support, even from elements of society that by and large shouldn't have followed them. But it didn't take long before people became disillusioned. Look at those two British Bosnians girls fared, they got caught up with the excitement of ISIS and a religious state catering to their religion. Both were forced to marry men they didn't choose. One was killed in fighting, the other murdered by her husband. There are many others that are in similar situations, who in time will use this to shuck off religion.

Its like here in the US, we needed Black Lives Matter and college nitwit anarchist/socialists to go so overboard with PC nonsense that people are now fighting against it without fear of retribution. We had to let Obama lead this country so poorly for the first part of his term that the Republicans could gain control of Congress and that allowed even someone like Trump to have a reasonable shot at the White House. For change to happen, bad things must occur to change people's minds and let them see the error of the ways. Considering how poorly ISIS runs shit, and how violent they are, and how absolutely extreme they take Islam (even executing people for smoking cigarettes), there is no way that they will continue to gain followers in the long run unless we manage to alienate others to force them to join with ISIS for self protection. Maliki in Iraq learned this the hard way when his harsh dealings with Iraq's Sunni Arabs turned ISIS from a group operating mostly in Syria, with under 10,000 members, to taking control of western and north Iraq, with over a hundred thousand members. We can prevent this by not following ISIS propaganda and strategy, like a donkey led by a carrot on the stick. We get inside their OODA loop and we lead them by the nose.  

one can easily make the case the muslim world has become more violent as they have become more literate.

everyone in saudia arabia can read.

Terrorism is like war, it'll never go away.

 

Oh yeah, MOST suicide bombers come from well to do families, with educated backgrounds.

Where would the aztecs be without Cortez?   They were too busy with ritual human sacrifice to bother with things like democracy and science.   Cortez did the people of mexico a huge favor by utterly destroying that system.   The spanish colonization was a historical blip anyway.

IIRC, the leader of ISIS has a phd. Education sure cured him of terroristic urges.

No, Lucy, I don't. And you didn't answer the question.

i completely answered your question if you knew anything about judiasm, which you don't.

you want to be a troll, at  least be an informed and educated one.

but if you were informed and educated, you wouldnt be a liberal.

quite the catch-22, isn't it?

You didn't completely answer his question.  A complete answer would tell him how Job in the Talmud differs from Job in the Bible.

I'm curious what the answer is myself.

Right.    Many T's are extremely well educated.

As a Christian I find that statement chilling.  We have a saying in our Bible that goes like this; "What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?" Mark 8:36  Our scriptures repeatedly warn us that we will be tested and even killed for our faith.  We're told to rejoice in our persecution.  Of course we're also taught to love our enemies, not to go around killing them indiscriminately.  



You can't repress a religion hard enough to make it go away.  The Romans tried that and look what happened.  



Is Islamic culture ready to hear the truth about their faith?  I seriously doubt it.  But that's the kind of education that will put an end to the violence in the Middle East.



 

The naïveté of people never ceases to amaze.

The terrorists are not terrorists because they can't read.  They can read just fine.  They read the Koran and it says to do exactly what they are doing.  It is there in black and white...go read it yourself.

The highest goal of a follower of Mohamed is to emulate Mohamed in every way...dress, speach, diet, daily routine, beliefs, and actions.  

Mohamed was a pedophile who slaughtered Christians and Jews, supported slavery, directed his followers to subjugate the world...convert or die.

That shit ain't complex.  Stop trying to put nuances where they don't belong.  This is one of those times in life where the clear answer is the simple answer.  

Pseudo intellectual BS to give time for the enemy to slip up behind to cut your throat.

How many peace loving pacifists were able to defend themselves against an armed invader?
Education and enlightenment is best delivered by the SJHP of your choice

the talmud is simply the jewish canon of biblical debate and analysis.  its the commentary, not a replacement.
because you can't simply answer the question.  as i am typing one handed (and lh at that) to explain the history of job quickly cannot be done.  its one of the most unique books in the bible.  it was written over a period of many years and most believe by multiple authors.  its prose in hebrew is especially ambiguous.  dissertations have been written by talmiddic scholars for centuries on just that book.  

just like you can't just read the koran and understand islam.

Cannyou explain that a bit more please ?

On one hand it's "right there in black and white", and needs further diagnosis in yours.

( just looking for clarification )

Most religions come with their own doctrinal twists and interpretations of texts.  You can't really read the Bible and come away with a strong understanding of the Christian religion either.  You can get the basics, but the nitty-gritty stuff requires more, because religions aren't just a collection of texts; they're the collective belief of a group of people.

Sylvan, I've been googling and the answer I'm getting is that "A man there once was" is the Hebrew equivalent of "Once upon a time".  Does that sound right?

i guess.  I dont read or speak hebrew or aramaic

Christianity is incredibly simple, and you can have a complete understanding of it by just reading the Gospel.

The various major sects, and the innumerable sub-sects, of Christianity have some pretty fundamental disagreements.  That wouldn't happen if a complete understanding was possible from just the text alone.

I didn't read all 7 pages, but doesn't Boko Haram translate roughly as "[western] education is forbidden".

It's going to be hard to win them over with education if their primary objection is to education.

Educating people who are already terrorists won't do much good.  The idea is that people with educations will be less likely to join groups which are anti-education, such as the Taliban and Boko Haram.

Doesn't that give you a clue that we should be hitting them with what they object to the most? (That is in addition to a hail of bullets and jdam's for actual terrorists.)

Literacy rate for males in Swat, the area of Pakistan the author of the quote in the OP is from, is a whopping 12%. For females its 2%. So don't try to lecture the class about how you know they all "read just fine."

It took Christians 1,800 years to learn to not kill people in the name of the New Testament, and that only happened because we found better reasons to kill people, such as nationalism and socialism and other entertaining -isms. Jews were slaughtering their neighbors for over 700 years in the name of the God before they got beat by a tougher enemy, slowing them down. I think Islam is acting par for the course in terms of how religions operate. Humans be humans.

There is a gross misunderstanding, a disconnect, happening right now in this thread.

The author of the quote in the OP wasn't trying to say that you can take someone like Osama Bin Laden and turn them into a good person through education. She's saying that education at a young age might have stopped backward assholes from shooting people in the face because they promoted education for girls and society in general. That people who end up being recruited into organizations like the Taliban or Boko Haram as foot soldiers would be less likely if they had a proper education that didn't solely emphasize Islam, read and interpreted by others since they can't even read the book themselves.

Nonsense.  A stop sign is a simple thing, but people will disagree on its meaning.  Can you name a Christian sect that doesn't accept that Jesus is Lord and Savior, that He died for our sins, and that all men have sinned and the only way to Heaven is through believing in Him and repenting those sins?  That is ALL that is required...everything else is just window dressing.  The New Testament does give us guidance on how to live good Christian lives...but it also offers forgiveness when we fail at it.

Jesus as Lord and Savior is one of the basics of Christianity.  You can pick up a basic understanding from reading the Bible.  A complete understanding, however, which is what we're talking about, requires much much more.  For example, is Jesus the same as God or is he a separate entity?  That was quite a dividing issue in early Christianity, and clearly was easily answered by simply reading the Bible.

Try to remember the course of this conversation.  It's not happening in a vacuum.  This started with a question about whether Job was a literal story or a parable.  That's far from basic knowledge that you can grasp from simply reading it without conversing with other members of the religion.

I agree but, terrorism breeds terrorists and vice versa. So you need guns and education for it to work on civilized human beings. The problem is some are not civilized.

explain and show examples

What common attribute separates the civilized from the uncivilized? Hint, it is focused on during a persons upbringing and in modern times is often seen as a standardized/formalized process.

What I'm getting at is that Christianity is simple, and it's people's practice of it that's complex.  Literal or parable, the story of Job is a Judaic tradition meant to teach and to glorify God, and isn't a factor in Christianity beyond that...just like everything in the Old Testament.  Those books coming after the Gospel simply expound on it.

Islam, in contrast, seems to have quite a few rules, and people's practice of it seems rather constrained.  That's because it was intended from it's beginning as a means of control.  Sects decide which writings are acceptable based on what they need the people to believe to maintain control.  ISIS already has their list of acceptable reading material, and you can bet it isn't the love-your-neighbor stuff.  Wanna guess what happens to someone caught teaching or even reading something not on that list?  Ever wonder why Westernized Muslims, who aren't reading heavily censored versions of the Koran, aren't (for the most part) busy gunning down infidels on their lawn?

Yeah, certain sects of Christianity can be good at selective interpretation as well...just go to any small rural Baptist church during a revival and you can see that...but at its core, Christianity not only believes in freedom of thought, it encourages it, as evidenced by the vast number of factions you yourself pointed out.  That core is the Gospel, and without that core, it isn't Christian.

If you understand the Gospel, you have a complete understanding of Christianity.  That isn't to say you understand everybody's personal interpretation of it, no, but to imply that's required has to be some sort of logical fallacy.  You can completely understand the mechanics of an automobile and be totally ignorant of traffic laws...but barring incident, the car will still get you where you want to go.

Education and "civilization" will not cure the Islamist problem; many of the leaders from the various militant factions are in fact from the upper class and highly educated.  


The head of IS after all has a PH.D. (There is debate if it is in Education or Islamic Studies), the head of AQ is a surgeon and the founder of the Muslim brotherhood was educated in the US