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Posted: 7/12/2009 5:43:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If this was more common, electric vehicles would be much more feasible. Very pretty. Do you have a picture of how it looks one day after the pigeons come in to roost? Without the sarcasm, I thought that solar panels took more energy to make than they could ever produce. This may have changed but it certainly is not "free". Ever is a long, long time. At this time, they are very, very expensive but good in some applications. The real future for solar (if it even has one) is thermal arrays. I disagree. Solid state technologies tend to improve much faster than thermal/mechanical ones. Solar panels are advancing as they have done since for a long time. Nanotechnology is being brought in as are material improvements and manufacturing methods. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 5:50:24 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted:
Diesel electric hybrids are the only thing that could get close to an all electric. http://www.transportation.anl.gov/modeling_simulation/GREET/sample_results.html I have always thought that the way to do a hybrid is like a diesel electric train except with battery added. The diesel would run at peak efficiency to charge the battery like a Chevy Volt except a small turbo diesel would be used instead of a gasoline engine. Ever take a look at the Riley XR3 hybrid? Two seats and three wheels (2 front, 1 rear), with a 3 cylinder 900cc Kubota diesel driving the front wheels, and electric drive on the rear wheel. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 5:54:06 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted: We have to fight that through other means. They could just as easily hike the gas tax and force you onto the buss. For that matter oil exporting countries could all make driving cars unaffordable.Quoted: I don't understand the vitriol toward vehicles that allow greater energy independence and keep energy production in the U.S. instead of paying $140.00 or more per barrel. If they don't want an electric or electric plug in hybrid, they don't have to buy one. Too many people want to make up reasons to be against them instead of learning the actual benefits and tradeoff's. Because we KNOW that once they are on the market, the greenie-weenies will try to make them mandatory... If we lived in a free market society, without that threat, I would care less - the market would produce what people want to buy (be it my V8 Camaro, or Matt's Prius).... The problem is, people like me look at the Greenie-weenie cars and see a future where that's all we are allowed to buy. I drove a Saturn SL2 for many years when I could paid cash for a much more expensive car. I now have a Dodge 1 ton dually with Cummins turbo diesel and a 2008 Bullitt Mustang. I like my performance cars, but I can't wait to be able to buy a plug in hybrid of some sort. I am not interested in the current generation Prius type cars. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:04:21 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
We have to fight that through other means. They could just as easily hike the gas tax and force you onto the buss. For that matter oil exporting countries could all make driving cars unaffordable.
Quoted:
I don't understand the vitriol toward vehicles that allow greater energy independence and keep energy production in the U.S. instead of paying $140.00 or more per barrel. If they don't want an electric or electric plug in hybrid, they don't have to buy one. Too many people want to make up reasons to be against them instead of learning the actual benefits and tradeoff's. Because we KNOW that once they are on the market, the greenie-weenies will try to make them mandatory... If we lived in a free market society, without that threat, I would care less - the market would produce what people want to buy (be it my V8 Camaro, or Matt's Prius).... The problem is, people like me look at the Greenie-weenie cars and see a future where that's all we are allowed to buy. I drove a Saturn SL2 for many years when I could paid cash for a much more expensive car. I now have a Dodge 1 ton dually with Cummins turbo diesel and a 2008 Bullitt Mustang. I like my performance cars, but I can't wait to be able to buy a plug in hybrid of some sort. I am not interested in the current generation Prius type cars. Of course the .gov could always just put a tax on how much you charge your electric vehicle. Dont think the .gov wont find a way to tax you on your driving if the tax money they get from oil dries up. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:17:16 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We have to fight that through other means. They could just as easily hike the gas tax and force you onto the buss. For that matter oil exporting countries could all make driving cars unaffordable.
Quoted:
I don't understand the vitriol toward vehicles that allow greater energy independence and keep energy production in the U.S. instead of paying $140.00 or more per barrel. If they don't want an electric or electric plug in hybrid, they don't have to buy one. Too many people want to make up reasons to be against them instead of learning the actual benefits and tradeoff's. Because we KNOW that once they are on the market, the greenie-weenies will try to make them mandatory... If we lived in a free market society, without that threat, I would care less - the market would produce what people want to buy (be it my V8 Camaro, or Matt's Prius).... The problem is, people like me look at the Greenie-weenie cars and see a future where that's all we are allowed to buy. I drove a Saturn SL2 for many years when I could paid cash for a much more expensive car. I now have a Dodge 1 ton dually with Cummins turbo diesel and a 2008 Bullitt Mustang. I like my performance cars, but I can't wait to be able to buy a plug in hybrid of some sort. I am not interested in the current generation Prius type cars. Of course the .gov could always just put a tax on how much you charge your electric vehicle. Dont think the .gov wont find a way to tax you on your driving if the tax money they get from oil dries up. No doubt. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:32:19 PM EDT
[#6]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Problem with batteries is they steadily degrade over time. You lose 1% capacity per month on a lithium-ion battery. So after 5 years, you've lost 60% of the battery's performance. Instead of 300 miles on a charge, you only get 120. Consider that current production lithium based cells produced by A123 Systems are rated at 7000 cycles. After 7000 cycles, they still hold 80% of their original capacity. 7000 cycles at one cycle per day is NINETEEN YEARS. Each time the gasoline motor starts up, and you start a charge, that's a 'cycle'..... So, you think that starting the engine takes ALL of the energy in the battery? Does a battery electric vehicle HAVE an engine? Sorry, Dave, usually you're at least somewhat technically correct, but your statement here is retarded. A cycle is draining the battery to it's lower threshold and charging it back up to it's maximum threshold. At least, that's the way A123 defines it when they talk about their cells. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:33:21 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
We have to fight that through other means. They could just as easily hike the gas tax and force you onto the buss. For that matter oil exporting countries could all make driving cars unaffordable.
Quoted:
I don't understand the vitriol toward vehicles that allow greater energy independence and keep energy production in the U.S. instead of paying $140.00 or more per barrel. If they don't want an electric or electric plug in hybrid, they don't have to buy one. Too many people want to make up reasons to be against them instead of learning the actual benefits and tradeoff's. Cap and trade anyone? Because we KNOW that once they are on the market, the greenie-weenies will try to make them mandatory... If we lived in a free market society, without that threat, I would care less - the market would produce what people want to buy (be it my V8 Camaro, or Matt's Prius).... The problem is, people like me look at the Greenie-weenie cars and see a future where that's all we are allowed to buy. I drove a Saturn SL2 for many years when I could paid cash for a much more expensive car. I now have a Dodge 1 ton dually with Cummins turbo diesel and a 2008 Bullitt Mustang. I like my performance cars, but I can't wait to be able to buy a plug in hybrid of some sort. I am not interested in the current generation Prius type cars. Of course the .gov could always just put a tax on how much you charge your electric vehicle. Dont think the .gov wont find a way to tax you on your driving if the tax money they get from oil dries up. No doubt. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:39:15 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If this was more common, electric vehicles would be much more feasible. Very pretty. Do you have a picture of how it looks one day after the pigeons come in to roost? Without the sarcasm, I thought that solar panels took more energy to make than they could ever produce. This may have changed but it certainly is not "free". Ever is a long, long time. At this time, they are very, very expensive but good in some applications. The real future for solar (if it even has one) is thermal arrays. I disagree. Solid state technologies tend to improve much faster than thermal/mechanical ones. Solar panels are advancing as they have done since for a long time. Nanotechnology is being brought in as are material improvements and manufacturing methods. Solar has only been making advancements in the last few years. Through the 80s and 90s they kinda hit a plateau. Now, because of the greenies, they are getting more attention and are making great advancements. Most of those advancements have been in manufacturing and cost. Efficiency hasn't seen much gain. I did see where... I think it was MIT or a school like it... on a DARPA project was able to get almost 43% efficiency out of a solar cell. It took a lot of optics to do so and wouldn't be very cost effective at all. I think what will work the best will be thin film cells and paint-on coatings. Things like photovoltaic roof shingles would be awesome when/if they become cost effective and provide a decent amount of energy. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:40:20 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: So the point is the technology of electric cars is not evil, or freedom limiting. Government can tax any type of mobility regardless of power source. Quoted: Quoted: We have to fight that through other means. They could just as easily hike the gas tax and force you onto the buss. For that matter oil exporting countries could all make driving cars unaffordable.Quoted: I don't understand the vitriol toward vehicles that allow greater energy independence and keep energy production in the U.S. instead of paying $140.00 or more per barrel. If they don't want an electric or electric plug in hybrid, they don't have to buy one. Too many people want to make up reasons to be against them instead of learning the actual benefits and tradeoff's. Because we KNOW that once they are on the market, the greenie-weenies will try to make them mandatory... If we lived in a free market society, without that threat, I would care less - the market would produce what people want to buy (be it my V8 Camaro, or Matt's Prius).... The problem is, people like me look at the Greenie-weenie cars and see a future where that's all we are allowed to buy. I drove a Saturn SL2 for many years when I could paid cash for a much more expensive car. I now have a Dodge 1 ton dually with Cummins turbo diesel and a 2008 Bullitt Mustang. I like my performance cars, but I can't wait to be able to buy a plug in hybrid of some sort. I am not interested in the current generation Prius type cars. Of course the .gov could always just put a tax on how much you charge your electric vehicle. Dont think the .gov wont find a way to tax you on your driving if the tax money they get from oil dries up. It is foolish to be against electric car technology due to political reasons. What vehicle you buy is your own personal choice, but making up false reasons to be against an electric car is kind of like Fudd's being against black rifles. They aren't for everybody. But the fact that they are being worked on is a good thing. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:42:02 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted: Quoted: I don't understand the vitriol toward vehicles that allow greater energy independence and keep energy production in the U.S. instead of paying $140.00 or more per barrel. If they don't want an electric or electric plug in hybrid, they don't have to buy one. Too many people want to make up reasons to be against them instead of learning the actual benefits and tradeoff's. Because we KNOW that once they are on the market, the greenie-weenies will try to make them mandatory... If we lived in a free market society, without that threat, I would care less - the market would produce what people want to buy (be it my V8 Camaro, or Matt's Prius).... The problem is, people like me look at the Greenie-weenie cars and see a future where that's all we are allowed to buy. I agree with you Dave. The free market should drive technology. I dig the technology. I even realize that it would be slow to make it to market if left to free market mechanisms, but I HATE the greentards and dumbocrats that want to legislate behavior. I'm all for hot fast cars, and everyone's choice to buy them. Choice is freedom. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:46:52 PM EDT
[#11]
With a sticker of $101,500 I can think of other cars I'd be looking at first.
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:51:28 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: With a sticker of $101,500 I can think of other cars I'd be looking at first. The first personal computers cost north of $3000 and had a fraction of the power they do nowadays. We can't afford 'em now, but who knows what things will be like in 10 or 20 years.  |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:52:54 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: Quoted: So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? Electric cars are about as much of an electrical burden as a refrigerator... But whatever works. ETA: Nevermind. I find it somewhat dubious that the small amount of electricity to keep my well insulated fridge cool for a day is enough to get move me and my 2900 lb box of air, 50 miles at interstate speeds. My fridge costs less than $15 a month to operate. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 6:54:33 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Gen 3 Prius doesn't have a plug in hybrid function, at least, not yet.Quoted: Have to disagee. I and many others would love to have an affordable BEV we could commute to work in. Just have toget in the habit of plugging it in at night. 100 miles is plenty forthis. The main problem is cost. This is certainly a good point. About 6 months ago my "energy conversion systems" class (part of my mech engineering degree) watched "Who killed the Electric Car." In the discussion of the movie, that point was brought up. My response is to think of the number of cars on the road that have never been farther than 50 miles from their house (long trips are possible, but a huge pain in the ass). Then think of the number of people that can afford a completely separate vehicle just for short commutes. My guess is that the amount of people willing to do this was just too small to produce an entire new line of vehicles. That's why the EV1 failed. Thankfully (if you are into this kind of thing), the Chevy volt and Generation 3 Prius will eliminate the 50 mile tether on electric cars. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:06:41 PM EDT
[#15]
I am waiting for my nuclear car...
Oh wait, that idea went up in smoke about 50 years ago didn't it?
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:10:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So the point is the technology of electric cars is not evil, or freedom limiting. Government can tax any type of mobility regardless of power source.
Quoted:
Quoted:
We have to fight that through other means. They could just as easily hike the gas tax and force you onto the buss. For that matter oil exporting countries could all make driving cars unaffordable.
Quoted:
I don't understand the vitriol toward vehicles that allow greater energy independence and keep energy production in the U.S. instead of paying $140.00 or more per barrel. If they don't want an electric or electric plug in hybrid, they don't have to buy one. Too many people want to make up reasons to be against them instead of learning the actual benefits and tradeoff's. Because we KNOW that once they are on the market, the greenie-weenies will try to make them mandatory... If we lived in a free market society, without that threat, I would care less - the market would produce what people want to buy (be it my V8 Camaro, or Matt's Prius).... The problem is, people like me look at the Greenie-weenie cars and see a future where that's all we are allowed to buy. I drove a Saturn SL2 for many years when I could paid cash for a much more expensive car. I now have a Dodge 1 ton dually with Cummins turbo diesel and a 2008 Bullitt Mustang. I like my performance cars, but I can't wait to be able to buy a plug in hybrid of some sort. I am not interested in the current generation Prius type cars. Of course the .gov could always just put a tax on how much you charge your electric vehicle. Dont think the .gov wont find a way to tax you on your driving if the tax money they get from oil dries up. It is foolish to be against electric car technology due to political reasons. What vehicle you buy is your own personal choice, but making up false reasons to be against an electric car is kind of like Fudd's being against black rifles. They aren't for everybody. But the fact that they are being worked on is a good thing. Im the one who started this thread. 
My point is that gas is higher than it should be due to taxes. The .gov will find a way to tax the electricity you use to drive your all electric vehicle. That or mandate gps onto all the new cars produced. Although even with that it would still be cheaper than gasolne. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:10:23 PM EDT
[#17]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Problem with batteries is they steadily degrade over time. You lose 1% capacity per month on a lithium-ion battery. So after 5 years, you've lost 60% of the battery's performance. Instead of 300 miles on a charge, you only get 120. Consider that current production lithium based cells produced by A123 Systems are rated at 7000 cycles. After 7000 cycles, they still hold 80% of their original capacity. 7000 cycles at one cycle per day is NINETEEN YEARS. Each time the gasoline motor starts up, and you start a charge, that's a 'cycle'..... If you want to look at it that way, then you must admit that not all cycles are the same. My car cycles (as you define it) the battery literally dozens of times a day. Driving it an average of 6 days a week for 4 years now ought to net me a lot more than 7k cycles. I don't feel like doing the math right now. Needless to say, the car has not diminished it's performance noticeably in the 70k miles since it was new. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:10:52 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Gen 3 Prius doesn't have a plug in hybrid function, at least, not yet.
Quoted:
Have to disagee. I and many others would love to have an affordable BEV we could commute to work in. Just have toget in the habit of plugging it in at night. 100 miles is plenty forthis. The main problem is cost. This is certainly a good point. About 6 months ago my "energy conversion systems" class (part of my mech engineering degree) watched "Who killed the Electric Car." In the discussion of the movie, that point was brought up. My response is to think of the number of cars on the road that have never been farther than 50 miles from their house (long trips are possible, but a huge pain in the ass). Then think of the number of people that can afford a completely separate vehicle just for short commutes. My guess is that the amount of people willing to do this was just too small to produce an entire new line of vehicles. That's why the EV1 failed. Thankfully (if you are into this kind of thing), the Chevy volt and Generation 3 Prius will eliminate the 50 mile tether on electric cars. I got my info from this article (from late 2007). As of then, they wanted to release a plug-in hybrid in late 2009. http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4227944.html |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:13:19 PM EDT
[#19]
I'd drive one for an around the town car.
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:18:56 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? Electric cars are about as much of an electrical burden as a refrigerator... But whatever works. My refrigerator doesn't pull 30 amps on a 220V line. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:19:07 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Gen 3 Prius doesn't have a plug in hybrid function, at least, not yet.Quoted: Have to disagee. I and many others would love to have an affordable BEV we could commute to work in. Just have toget in the habit of plugging it in at night. 100 miles is plenty forthis. The main problem is cost. This is certainly a good point. About 6 months ago my "energy conversion systems" class (part of my mech engineering degree) watched "Who killed the Electric Car." In the discussion of the movie, that point was brought up. My response is to think of the number of cars on the road that have never been farther than 50 miles from their house (long trips are possible, but a huge pain in the ass). Then think of the number of people that can afford a completely separate vehicle just for short commutes. My guess is that the amount of people willing to do this was just too small to produce an entire new line of vehicles. That's why the EV1 failed. Thankfully (if you are into this kind of thing), the Chevy volt and Generation 3 Prius will eliminate the 50 mile tether on electric cars. I got my info from this article (from late 2007). As of then, they wanted to release a plug-in hybrid in late 2009. http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4227944.html They talked about a lot of stuff to put into the car, but never got there in the form that was discussed. Toyota probably decided that cost would be too much for a plug in hybrid option. Don't get me wrong, it is a good car. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:21:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? Electric cars are about as much of an electrical burden as a refrigerator... But whatever works. My refrigerator doesn't pull 30 amps on a 220V line. Most are on a 15A 120v line. Starting loads are high, but the operating cost of a fridge is nowhere near what it would cost to charge an EV once a day. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:22:31 PM EDT
[#23]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? Electric cars are about as much of an electrical burden as a refrigerator... But whatever works. Not to mention peak time for electrical usage is during the heat of the day. If the Electrical system can handle A/C, it can handle electric cars. Um, most houses are wired for 100 amps at 110 volts (11,000 watts) and don't draw the max, ever. This Tesla requires 220V 70A (15,400 watts) for the "quick charge." So if everybody drives a Tesla, it would be like doubling the number of houses on the grid. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:25:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If this was more common, electric vehicles would be much more feasible. Very pretty. Do you have a picture of how it looks one day after the pigeons come in to roost? Without the sarcasm, I thought that solar panels took more energy to make than they could ever produce. This may have changed but it certainly is not "free". Ever is a long, long time. At this time, they are very, very expensive but good in some applications. The real future for solar (if it even has one) is thermal arrays. I disagree. Solid state technologies tend to improve much faster than thermal/mechanical ones. Solar panels are advancing as they have done since for a long time. Nanotechnology is being brought in as are material improvements and manufacturing methods. Solar has only been making advancements in the last few years. Through the 80s and 90s they kinda hit a plateau. Now, because of the greenies, they are getting more attention and are making great advancements. Most of those advancements have been in manufacturing and cost. Efficiency hasn't seen much gain. I did see where... I think it was MIT or a school like it... on a DARPA project was able to get almost 43% efficiency out of a solar cell. It took a lot of optics to do so and wouldn't be very cost effective at all. I think what will work the best will be thin film cells and paint-on coatings. Things like photovoltaic roof shingles would be awesome when/if they become cost effective and provide a decent amount of energy. Despite what the greenies say, work has been going on for some time, improvements have been made for a long time, and various technologies plateau from time to time. A lot of things seem to be happening because we are at one of those points where various technologies combine with one another. We have nanotechnology, various LED technologies, various fabricating technologies all sort of hitting and reaching practical application levels at about the same time. Of course you still have to be careful about vapor ware.  |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:25:35 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Problem with batteries is they steadily degrade over time. You lose 1% capacity per month on a lithium-ion battery. So after 5 years, you've lost 60% of the battery's performance. Instead of 300 miles on a charge, you only get 120. Consider that current production lithium based cells produced by A123 Systems are rated at 7000 cycles. After 7000 cycles, they still hold 80% of their original capacity. 7000 cycles at one cycle per day is NINETEEN YEARS. Each time the gasoline motor starts up, and you start a charge, that's a 'cycle'..... If you want to look at it that way, then you must admit that not all cycles are the same. My car cycles (as you define it) the battery literally dozens of times a day. Driving it an average of 6 days a week for 4 years now ought to net me a lot more than 7k cycles. I don't feel like doing the math right now. Needless to say, the car has not diminished it's performance noticeably in the 70k miles since it was new. The 'cycles' I referred to are a full charge -> full discharge -> full charge. Your car (mine too) never fully cycles the battery. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:27:53 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
Um, most houses are wired for 100 amps at 110 volts (11,000 watts) and don't draw the max, ever. This Tesla requires 220V 70A (15,400 watts) for the "quick charge." So if everybody drives a Tesla, it would be like doubling the number of houses on the grid. The coming of electric cars and electric plug-in hybrids will be very slow. If all of the sudden, we all got electric dragsters, there would obviously be a problem. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:30:12 PM EDT
[#27]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? Electric cars are about as much of an electrical burden as a refrigerator... But whatever works. Not to mention peak time for electrical usage is during the heat of the day. If the Electrical system can handle A/C, it can handle electric cars. Um, most houses are wired for 100 amps at 110 volts (11,000 watts) and don't draw the max, ever. This Tesla requires 220V 70A (15,400 watts) for the "quick charge." So if everybody drives a Tesla, it would be like doubling the number of houses on the grid. Good thing not 'everybody' would have them. Market penetration would be VERY small and would grow slowly. Since most houses only have two phases and can only push about 30 amps on a 220v circuit, quick charging at home wouldn't be feasible without some sort of storage to buffer the energy demand. But that's just fine. Almost everyone comes home at some point and then doesn't leave their home for at least 8 hours if not more. Plenty of time for a slow charge. Quick charging would likely have to be done at a specialized station that has higher power connection to the grid. I don't think these would be feasible until power production is greatly increased and the grid infrastructure updated to handle it. We're probably decades away from that. In the mean time, plugging in at home, overnight, is likely what will bear the majority of the load of plug in vehicles. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:31:27 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
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Gen 3 Prius doesn't have a plug in hybrid function, at least, not yet.
Quoted:
Have to disagee. I and many others would love to have an affordable BEV we could commute to work in. Just have toget in the habit of plugging it in at night. 100 miles is plenty forthis. The main problem is cost. This is certainly a good point. About 6 months ago my "energy conversion systems" class (part of my mech engineering degree) watched "Who killed the Electric Car." In the discussion of the movie, that point was brought up. My response is to think of the number of cars on the road that have never been farther than 50 miles from their house (long trips are possible, but a huge pain in the ass). Then think of the number of people that can afford a completely separate vehicle just for short commutes. My guess is that the amount of people willing to do this was just too small to produce an entire new line of vehicles. That's why the EV1 failed. Thankfully (if you are into this kind of thing), the Chevy volt and Generation 3 Prius will eliminate the 50 mile tether on electric cars. I got my info from this article (from late 2007). As of then, they wanted to release a plug-in hybrid in late 2009. http://www.popularmechanics.com/automotive/new_cars/4227944.html They talked about a lot of stuff to put into the car, but never got there in the form that was discussed. Toyota probably decided that cost would be too much for a plug in hybrid option. Don't get me wrong, it is a good car. If Chevy ever gets the Volt off the ground, Toyota will have to answer. One thing that i like about toyota is there engineers are willing to try new stuff. One example of this is their solar powered air conditioner option. At this point in time, that option would probably cost moe than it's worth; however they are willing to make the option, and the knowledge gained from it, in cars to customers that are willing to pay. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:31:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? Electric cars are about as much of an electrical burden as a refrigerator... But whatever works. My refrigerator doesn't pull 30 amps on a 220V line. Most are on a 15A 120v line. Starting loads are high, but the operating cost of a fridge is nowhere near what it would cost to charge an EV once a day. Yup, once you drop out the start windings you lose around 1/2 your amp draw immediately. A charger isn't going to do this and the cost figures are horsecrap because they leave out all the incidental costs of electricity one would see in their bill. Double the voltage, drop the amp draw but the costs for wiring 440V is NOT going to be "free". You are talking thousands of dollars to do the entire job and 440V is usually commercial/industrial. You'd need to drop the voltage for the rest of the house usage. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:34:33 PM EDT
[#30]
Quoted: Quoted: Um, most houses are wired for 100 amps at 110 volts (11,000 watts) and don't draw the max, ever. This Tesla requires 220V 70A (15,400 watts) for the "quick charge." So if everybody drives a Tesla, it would be like doubling the number of houses on the grid. The coming of electric cars and electric plug-in hybrids will be very slow. If all of the sudden, we all got electric dragsters, there would obviously be a problem. Slow? Do you mean in 0-60 times? The Volt should do that in around or under 8 seconds. Not 'fast', but not 'slow' either. I'm not sure what the 2010 Prius (non-plugin) does it in, but it's likely a little quicker than the 10.x time of the 09 Prius. Not 'fast', but still not 'slow'. Consider that electric motors get MASSIVE amounts of torque, and they get it at 0RPM. Electric cars will accelerate pretty well. The top end? Maybe not so much compared to many traditional cars. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:36:06 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
how long does a charge take? Found it. 45min is too long for road tripping. Doubt it actually gets 300 miles either. It's not terrible either though. 300 miles 45 min for lunch 300 miles That's pretty much a solid day of driving by anyone's measure. If it really gets 300 and it really charges in 45 minutes then I'd say it's in play. It'll be neat to see what kind of improvements they come up with in the next few years on this technology. If Tesla is out with 300 mile batteries right out of the gate it's probably not hard to imagine where it will get with development. There's some company in Canada playing around with Ultracapacitors rights now. Supposedly they can charge them in a few minutes rather than a few hours. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:38:25 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
The coming of electric cars and electric plug-in hybrids will be very slow. If all of the sudden, we all got electric dragsters, there would obviously be a problem. Slow? Do you mean in 0-60 times? The Volt should do that in around or under 8 seconds. Not 'fast', but not 'slow' either. I'm not sure what the 2010 Prius (non-plugin) does it in, but it's likely a little quicker than the 10.x time of the 09 Prius. Not 'fast', but still not 'slow'. Consider that electric motors get MASSIVE amounts of torque, and they get it at 0RPM. Electric cars will accelerate pretty well. The top end? Maybe not so much compared to many traditional cars. Haha, I meant the rate at which they would be adopted, not their acceleration. 
I drive a 4cylinder S10...I know what slow is. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:41:29 PM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? Or how about Joe Q. Obstinate who would rather buy oil from a bunch of sand cowboys who hate us than relay on energy sources that we can produce locally with our own resources? Electric cars have nothing to do with saving the earth. Anyone with a brain knows that electric cars still have to get their power from somewhere. The best part about electric cars is that we don't need Osama and friends to fuel them. We've also got thousands of years of proven nuclear and coal reserves. You are also neglecting to acknowledge the fact that most cars would be plugged in during off peak hours (at night) when the grid is at significantly less than 100% utilization. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:41:58 PM EDT
[#34]
Quoted: Quoted: how long does a charge take? Found it. 45min is too long for road tripping. Doubt it actually gets 300 miles either. It's not terrible either though. 300 miles 45 min for lunch 300 miles That's pretty much a solid day of driving by anyone's measure. If it really gets 300 and it really charges in 45 minutes then I'd say it's in play. It'll be neat to see what kind of improvements they come up with in the next few years on this technology. If Tesla is out with 300 mile batteries right out of the gate it's probably not hard to imagine where it will get with development. There's some company in Canada playing around with Ultracapacitors rights now. Supposedly they can charge them in a few minutes rather than a few hours. Capacitors are awesome. There's a company called AFS that developed a hybrid based on the Saturn Vue. It has the standard engine and automatic transmission, but added a motor to power the rear wheels, batteries AND capacitors. The capacitors charge during regenerative braking, or from the battery, then quickly provide that power to the motor, with additional power from the batteries. Once cruising speed is attained, the caps draw some power from the battery to supply quick demand. I've mentioned EEStor before, but I hate to because their device is to this point still vaporware. I have seen that they are claiming third-party verification of their chemistry, and hope that it works out. Their capacitive device could change the game entirely. Much higher energy density, no thermal issues, less expensive than batteries, last much longer... Anyway, I see the near future of electric vehicles as being some range on batteries, with a small generator onboard running off of either diesel or gasoline (or natural gas...). Be it a small reciprocating piston engine or a small turbine, a generator would allow an electric vehicle to primarily operate off of plug-in electric power, but not be limited to the range of that power. It's the best way to do it, IMHO. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:42:02 PM EDT
[#35]
Quoted:
Quoted:
And now for something more realistic.
So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? A guy like me who lives in a modest house that he paid off years ago, who drives modestly priced American cars bought with cash and doesn't pay $100 a month for cable likes the concept of being able to have a car that can cover 98% of his yearly mileage without being dependent on foreign oil. He remembers the oil embargo of 1973 and knows about gas lines and even/odd license plate rationing. He knows that we import 60% of our fuel now and something like 40% then. He buys an electric car which is charged at night when peak rates are low and the power plants supplying the grid are operating at reduced output anyway. An oil embargo, war, jihad malfunction or some other worldly cluster fuck occurs and the imports slow down or stop. I drive to work in my electric car along with six other people who used to make fun of the electric car. I have the last laugh on my now captive audience. Of course, I think the Chevy volt or plug in hybrid concepts are better than pure electric, so you could take the car on trips. Electric automobiles provide one of the only realistic ways of utilizing solar cells for massive amounts of electricity production. Solar parking lots could be erected to charge the cars while parked during the day without affecting the grid. On days with lots of sun, the cars would use less gasoline (assuming plug in hybrid or Chevy Volt locomotive style cars). On days with rain or clouds, the cars would use more gasoline, but that's okay because gasoline can easily be stored while electricity is much harder to store on grid sized scales. Let's do some math.... The Hubble Space Telescope uses third generation solar cells at a cost of $19,000,000. The panels are 8' x 40' each. Total area of 640 square feet. The telescope consumes 2800 watts of power at 28 volts. Assuming some margin to charge batteries under loads, we can assume the solar panels generate about 4000 watts under full Sun exposure. To recharge your Tesla, we'll need to produce 15,400 watts of power (I assume you want the fast charge.) So you'll need the equivalent of 4 sets of HST solar panels. Total area of 2560 sf. (50x50 ft). Oh, and you'll need full Sun like you are in space - no clouds, no atmosphere - to get full efficiency. Oh, and they may require precision pointing in order to realize that efficiency as well. So if you have $76,000,000 lying around, you can build your fancy solar car charging station. Better hope for sunny days.... |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:42:40 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The coming of electric cars and electric plug-in hybrids will be very slow. If all of the sudden, we all got electric dragsters, there would obviously be a problem. Slow? Do you mean in 0-60 times? The Volt should do that in around or under 8 seconds. Not 'fast', but not 'slow' either. I'm not sure what the 2010 Prius (non-plugin) does it in, but it's likely a little quicker than the 10.x time of the 09 Prius. Not 'fast', but still not 'slow'. Consider that electric motors get MASSIVE amounts of torque, and they get it at 0RPM. Electric cars will accelerate pretty well. The top end? Maybe not so much compared to many traditional cars. Haha, I meant the rate at which they would be adopted, not their acceleration. I drive a 4cylinder S10...I know what slow is. Haha, yeah, their adoption would be pretty slow. We'll have gas and diesel powered vehicles around for a long time! |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:43:32 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
My question is this. lets say the questions about electric cars are answered. They last a hundred thousand miles, They get 500 miles to a charge, They charge in 20 minutes, they are inexpensive, they have good performance, ok great.........but what do we do with those large batteries in 10 to 20 years when they start crashing? They started making a big deal about cell phones and cell phone batteries. So what are they going to do when there are millions of large toxic car batteries that are stacking up in land fills? It seems to me that every answer Dr birkenstock and Mrs granola. tree hugger come up with, Just have its own long term problem. Don't forget the environmental carnage that nickel mining does. We'll need a lot more nickel to make all those batteries... |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:47:08 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted:
Let's do some math.... The Hubble Space Telescope uses third generation solar cells at a cost of $19,000,000. The panels are 8' x 40' each. Total area of 640 square feet. The telescope consumes 2800 watts of power at 28 volts. Assuming some margin to charge batteries under loads, we can assume the solar panels generate about 4000 watts under full Sun exposure. To recharge your Tesla, we'll need to produce 15,400 watts of power (I assume you want the fast charge.) So you'll need the equivalent of 4 sets of HST solar panels. Total area of 2560 sf. (50x50 ft). Oh, and you'll need full Sun like you are in space - no clouds, no atmosphere - to get full efficiency. Oh, and they may require precision pointing in order to realize that efficiency as well. So if you have $76,000,000 lying around, you can build your fancy solar car charging station. Better hope for sunny days.... The cheapest solar cells out there now are $1.85/W. Companies are shooting for $1/W as a short term goal. No info on sqmeter/W though. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:57:06 PM EDT
[#39]
Doesn't the Hubble have some very old panels on it? Panels have been increasing efficiency very quickly the past few years.
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Posted: 7/12/2009 7:58:25 PM EDT
[#40]
Once Obamessiah's Cap and Trade BS is in effect, charging your electric car will be awfully painful to your pocket book!
I just bought an electric car this last week also: 
6v top speed is 2.5mph runs about 2 hours and take 8-10 hours to charge. It is RC too! Going green, i'm doing my part 
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Posted: 7/12/2009 8:00:15 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
Doesn't the Hubble have some very old panels on it? Panels have been increasing efficiency very quickly the past few years. From what I can tell, they were replaced in 2002. Due to many reasons, NASA tends to use the best possible cells at the time. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 8:00:56 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Quoted: My question is this. lets say the questions about electric cars are answered. They last a hundred thousand miles, They get 500 miles to a charge, They charge in 20 minutes, they are inexpensive, they have good performance, ok great.........but what do we do with those large batteries in 10 to 20 years when they start crashing? They started making a big deal about cell phones and cell phone batteries. So what are they going to do when there are millions of large toxic car batteries that are stacking up in land fills? It seems to me that every answer Dr birkenstock and Mrs granola. tree hugger come up with, Just have its own long term problem. Don't forget the environmental carnage that nickel mining does. We'll need a lot more nickel to make all those batteries... No current generation lithium batteries use nickel. You're thinking about NiMH. Those are SO 2007! You're also thinking about the Sudbury mines in Canada. Their big environmental fuck ups were 30 years ago. They're much cleaner now, and what nickel they DID provide for batteries was a very small portion of a fraction of what they produce. Batteries are very recycleable. People just have to get them TO recyclers. I'm sure with more and more electric vehicles that dealers and manufacturers will assist in that regard. Often times it's more economical to recycle than it is to get materials for new ones. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 8:25:12 PM EDT
[#43]
Quoted:
Once Obamessiah's Cap and Trade BS is in effect, charging your electric car will be awfully painful to your pocket book! I just bought an electric car this last week also: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b70/doublenot7/IMG_0718.jpg 6v top speed is 2.5mph runs about 2 hours and take 8-10 hours to charge. It is RC too! Going green, i'm doing my part I have an electric vehicle too.... Mine only cost $1200 & looks alot like this one 
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Posted: 7/12/2009 8:34:41 PM EDT
[#44]
Quoted: Quoted: how long does a charge take? Found it. 45min is too long for road tripping. Doubt it actually gets 300 miles either. It's not terrible either though. 300 miles 45 min for lunch 300 miles That's pretty much a solid day of driving by anyone's measure. If it really gets 300 and it really charges in 45 minutes then I'd say it's in play. It'll be neat to see what kind of improvements they come up with in the next few years on this technology. If Tesla is out with 300 mile batteries right out of the gate it's probably not hard to imagine where it will get with development. There's some company in Canada playing around with Ultracapacitors rights now. Supposedly they can charge them in a few minutes rather than a few hours. Um, no. I expect 400+ mile tanks and 20 minute maximum stops in between for food and gas. 600 miles is an EASY day. I would hit the roof if I had to waste 2 and a quarter hours waiting for our battery to charge while driving out to Colorado. That is worse than double nickel days time wise. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 8:35:28 PM EDT
[#45]
Quoted: Your "math" is completely wrong because you don't understand the difference between power and energy.Quoted: Quoted: And now for something more realistic.So, 5% of the population buys electric vehicles. John Greenieweenie comes home and plugs in to charge over night. The grid is presently at 105% of capacity. Brownout or even "Wump!" Blackout. "Honey," his wife says, "Looks like sandwiches again for dinner." Cold shower. No A/C. No Survivor on TV. Next morning his car isn't charged and he has to ride his kid's bike to work, making him late. But he's saving the Earth... that's what counts. Right? A guy like me who lives in a modest house that he paid off years ago, who drives modestly priced American cars bought with cash and doesn't pay $100 a month for cable likes the concept of being able to have a car that can cover 98% of his yearly mileage without being dependent on foreign oil. He remembers the oil embargo of 1973 and knows about gas lines and even/odd license plate rationing. He knows that we import 60% of our fuel now and something like 40% then. He buys an electric car which is charged at night when peak rates are low and the power plants supplying the grid are operating at reduced output anyway. An oil embargo, war, jihad malfunction or some other worldly cluster fuck occurs and the imports slow down or stop. I drive to work in my electric car along with six other people who used to make fun of the electric car. I have the last laugh on my now captive audience. Of course, I think the Chevy volt or plug in hybrid concepts are better than pure electric, so you could take the car on trips. Electric automobiles provide one of the only realistic ways of utilizing solar cells for massive amounts of electricity production. Solar parking lots could be erected to charge the cars while parked during the day without affecting the grid. On days with lots of sun, the cars would use less gasoline (assuming plug in hybrid or Chevy Volt locomotive style cars). On days with rain or clouds, the cars would use more gasoline, but that's okay because gasoline can easily be stored while electricity is much harder to store on grid sized scales. Let's do some math.... The Hubble Space Telescope uses third generation solar cells at a cost of $19,000,000. The panels are 8' x 40' each. Total area of 640 square feet. The telescope consumes 2800 watts of power at 28 volts. Assuming some margin to charge batteries under loads, we can assume the solar panels generate about 4000 watts under full Sun exposure. To recharge your Tesla, we'll need to produce 15,400 watts of power (I assume you want the fast charge.) So you'll need the equivalent of 4 sets of HST solar panels. Total area of 2560 sf. (50x50 ft). Oh, and you'll need full Sun like you are in space - no clouds, no atmosphere - to get full efficiency. Oh, and they may require precision pointing in order to realize that efficiency as well. So if you have $76,000,000 lying around, you can build your fancy solar car charging station. Better hope for sunny days.... I have to make some assumptions because the Tesla site does not provide detailed information, but the following is as close as can be estimated: The roadster battery stores 53 kw*hrs of electricity and has a range of 220 miles. I have to assume both figures leave sufficient capacity in the batteries so that excessive discharge is not a problem. 220 miles divided by 53 kw*hrs is 4.15 miles per Kw*hrs. Since I drive 40 miles round trip to work, I will use 9.64 kw*hrs. That would be at 100 per cent efficiency. Electrical conversion efficiency is pretty high. 92 to 88% is the number bandied about for the Tesla. 9.64 Kw *hrs would grow to 10.95 kw*hrs at 88% efficiency. To replace that electricity we will have losses in charging the battery. I will assume 80% but I don't know if they are greater or less than this. At 80% charging efficiency, we will need to put 13.69 kw*hrs into the battery. In Texas, I can expect about 6 hours of good charging sun but I will assume I can charge only 4 hours. 13.69 kw*hrs divided by 4 hours is 3.42 kw. To completely replace this amount of energy, I would need 27, 130 watt panels. Right now 40, 130 watt Kyocera panels costs $18,044.00 Of course, the structure, solar controller, charger would add to this cost. Looked at another way, I could put 20, 130 watt panels in a space that is 10 foot wide and 22 foot long. The cost for 20 panels right now is $9,022.00. This would allow me to nearly fully charge the car on solar alone on most days. I would get the added benefit of the car being nice and cool since it isn't sitting in the sun all day. I believe a Chevy Volt would be more practical as it has a gasoline powered generator similar to a diesel electric locomotive power scheme. The cost of the solar power system is more than the cost of fuel at $4.00 a gallon assuming 40 mpg for 100,000 miles. Update: This has already done with an actual Tesla and solar. My numbers are fairly close to actual. http://www.teslamotors.com/blog5/?p=70 My assumption of 88% conversion efficiency and 80% charge efficiency works out to 2.92 miles per kw*hr. The link states 3 miles per kw*hr which is slightly better. By the way, I have actually built a trailer mounted off grid solar emergency power system. I used it after Ike knocked out our power for two weeks. It powered stuff quietly at night. I powered bigger things with the generator during the day. The solar system kept me from using my fuel up to power low loads at night and saved the fuel for major loads during the day. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 8:37:21 PM EDT
[#46]
Quoted: Quoted: My question is this. lets say the questions about electric cars are answered. They last a hundred thousand miles, They get 500 miles to a charge, They charge in 20 minutes, they are inexpensive, they have good performance, ok great.........but what do we do with those large batteries in 10 to 20 years when they start crashing? They started making a big deal about cell phones and cell phone batteries. So what are they going to do when there are millions of large toxic car batteries that are stacking up in land fills? It seems to me that every answer Dr birkenstock and Mrs granola. tree hugger come up with, Just have its own long term problem. Don't forget the environmental carnage that nickel mining does. We'll need a lot more nickel to make all those batteries... Who cares. We have gobs of nickel sitting around. We have hundreds of metric tons of it just sitting idle in peoples piggy banks, not to mention just about every modern rechargeable battery for electronics... The greenies from 1970 called. They want their phony crisis back. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 10:27:47 PM EDT
[#47]
I think in the future, EVs will be most of the commuter cars on the road without question. What we have today will be looked at as the first steps to the truly useable electric car in years to come.
I will most likely one day have one for around town driving...in 20 years when they are a bit better. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 10:40:58 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
how long does a charge take? Found it. 45min is too long for road tripping. Doubt it actually gets 300 miles either. more like 100 mile range. |
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Posted: 7/12/2009 11:30:19 PM EDT
[#49]
saw a Tesla Roadster the other day on the road... looks pretty cool... dunno if it's worth $100k, though
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Posted: 7/12/2009 11:32:49 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: saw a Tesla Roadster the other day on the road... looks pretty cool... dunno if it's worth $100k, though Think of a car. Then think of the cool new whizbang cell phone. "early adopter" |
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