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Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:10:07 PM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:12:04 PM EDT
[#2]
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Quoted:
The Swiss PE57 bayonets that were dirt cheap a while ago resembled them.  
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Resemble them, and are fantastically well made but definitely ground to be bayonets and not daggers.
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:13:52 PM EDT
[#3]
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:15:08 PM EDT
[#4]
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Quoted:
Now I want a dagger but I don't want to spend a forture. Back in the day I missed the opportunity to get a Gerber MKI

I don't want to spend a fortune on one. Something like this looks practical https://ontarioknife.com/collections/classic-tactical-1/products/mark-iii-trench-knife?variant=31397367218262
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I've been looking at this one at the same price.

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/KAEK44/ka-bar-john-ek-commando-ek-model-4-fixed-double-edge-1095-dagger-blade-gfn-handles-celcon-sheath
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:22:48 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:


I've only been in one, but I've got about 20 years training in various knife systems.

I just don't see how a typical winter coat could provide much protection against a stab unless maybe the knife you're using is unsuitable for stabbing.

And I live in Canada where the winter garb is probably thicker than where you are.
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So with a 5 to 7 inch FS you’re going thru what Bollock and Rondel daggers that were 12 to 20 inches were designed for? I’ve never seen it in any of the crazy Russians vids, police or news reports or from HEMA instructors. So I’d be interested in seeing this.  https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/748477/Austria-christian-woman-attacked-bible-stabbed-migrant-Voecklamarkt/amp     Attachment Attached File
     
Bowie knife vs rondel dagger - how to choose
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:26:28 PM EDT
[#6]
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Quoted:


ETA: A pommel strike would fuck a person up pretty well.
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Yes
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:28:30 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:

Haven't seen anyone making that claim. What I have seen people saying in this thread, is "Best to avoid".

Unless I have no choice or better options, the risk involved in going hands on with someone armed with a knife, is just too high for me to chance. Best option is to shoot them from outside contact range.
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Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:35:40 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:


Oh man I'm pretty far away from DC.
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Virginia seems > Maryland minus the harbor at Annapolis but I don’t know western Maryland area and DC seems only okay around Georgetown and the tourist areas. Arlington seems better than much of Alexandria despite both being close to DC. Not sure if crime gets out into Fairfax, Chantilly, Herndon but that traffic is pretty shitty in VA. I’m surprised by the rent unless it’s Great Falls because my Grandmother’s house in Annandale  was only $700K which is less than a lot of LA and half of San Francisco. I heard MA 13 stabbed 2 teens to death in Nova then chopped them up and stuffed their body parts in a county park this year.
Link Posted: 8/28/2022 11:38:09 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:


We were out around Point Joe one day in my buddy's zodiac. Three of us jumped in for a deep dive, planned deco, maybe 180 foot or so. We had just finished clipping in our stage tanks and stuff, I was helping my buddy get his mask squared away when I saw this grey fin stand up out of the water maybe 20 foot behind him. He said my eyes looked like dinner plates. For a minute I considered climbing back in the boat with 200 lb of doubles, stage tanks etc. I was carrying enough gear to fit out 3 normal divers.

So I slipped on my mask and ducked underwater to see what was about to eat us. Turned out it was a massive Mola, beautiful bizarre creature, it's hard to imagine how something so ungainly survived evolutionary pressure.
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That bay has everything and now 5x as many great white sightings and 3x shark population. Guy just got comped by a 15 footer at Lovers point like 30 yards out. Lost arm and leg but still alive.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 12:20:16 AM EDT
[#10]
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Quoted:


It isn't that hard unless maybe you're looking to drive it to the hilt,  and even if someone is wearing a ridiculously amount of layers sufficient to stop the blade, it's still going to hurt.
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Agree on hurt from impact especially certain areas of the body
What is Scale Armor? - Practical Aspects & Historical Overview
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:06:39 AM EDT
[#12]
Not every knife is sharp. Most people haven't got a clue how to care for a blade.

I personally loath serrated blades, because I have seen them tangle in the fibers of clothing.
I was taught 4" in the minimum blade length for a fighting blade, reaching the heart would need good technique and luck.
Longer would be better.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:14:55 AM EDT
[#13]
I'm a fan of the Gerber MKII. I have a few from the 80s and 90s and one from 1970 with grey cat tounge grip. It's beautiful. It's razor sharp with no sharpened bevel. It just goes straight from the spine to a razor edge, like older Japanese swords.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:34:11 AM EDT
[#14]
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Quoted:

So with a 5 to 7 inch FS you’re going thru what Bollock and Rondel daggers that were 12 to 20 inches were designed for? I’ve never seen it in any of the crazy Russians vids, police or news reports or from HEMA instructors. So I’d be interested in seeing this.
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The F-S was primarily intented to be a sentry removal tool in the modern commando context, not an edged sidearm for doing Medieval stuff.

It was of course designed to be effective through a WW2 German greatcoat if need be, and you would need to be wearing some awfully thick clothing to be reliably protected against a good stab from one.

As far as these incidents where winter clothing saved someone from a knife attack, what knives were they using?

They could have involved box cutters, Chinesium steak knives or really short bladed knives for all we know, especially over in the U.K.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:42:11 AM EDT
[#15]
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Quoted:

Clothing frustrates cuts but is virtually irrelevant to thrusts. Here are demonstrations against late medieval cloth armor (24 layers of quilted linen). Skip to 2:30 if you just want the first demonstration with no context, and 3:35 for the second.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5beULSL2jxg

And here are demonstrations against doubled-up cotton pants and a coat with synthetic insulation. Skip to 00:50 for the first thrust demonstration, 1:25 for the second, and 2:10 for the third.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mFozCNHC_aU

Apart from the second knife in the first video, all of the knives used were only single-edged.
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Second video I'm calling bullshit on the tomahawk not penetrating clothing. Once that edge starts splitting it's not going to stop until the force is exausted or the blade has bottomed out.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:46:31 AM EDT
[#16]
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Quoted:
Not every knife is sharp. Most people haven't got a clue how to care for a blade.

I personally loath serrated blades, because I have seen them tangle in the fibers of clothing.
I was taught 4" in the minimum blade length for a fighting blade, reaching the heart would need good technique and luck.
Longer would be better.
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Yeah, I only use serrated for scuba and most people put zero time into care, training, appropriate selection, etc. and just wing ding their aggression. But it’s those people who do all of that where GD’s advice on knives is More so a factor. Of course you won’t necessarily be able to know if an attacker is skilled given the speed of attacks. Generally, 87% of the time, most serious martial artists of all flavors don’t engage in criminal behavior or behave in manner that is irresponsible. A lot of skilled martial artists don’t mouth off {even Masvidal is more reactive when he has} or brandish or threaten people with weapons or violence. They will look you in the eye, speak matter of factly and directly. But there are killers out there who are extremely dangerous and they have no hesitation to kill. Attachment Attached File
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Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:57:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Dauntless M3V2



Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:58:33 AM EDT
[#18]
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Quoted:


The F-S was primarily intented to be a sentry removal tool in the modern commando context, not an edged sidearm for doing Medieval stuff.

It was of course designed to be effective through a WW2 German greatcoat if need be, and you would need to be wearing some awfully thick clothing to be reliably protected against a good stab from one.

As far as these incidents where winter clothing saved someone from a knife attack, what knives were they using?

They could have involved box cutters, Chinesium steak knives or really short bladed knives for all we know, especially over in the U.K.
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I don’t  agree to that so you claim it but I see no supporting evidence, no articles, no WW2 veteran testimony or any examples. A stab to the back other than the kidney is not going to silence a sentry and the British National museum WW2 veteran testimony stated the knife was used for night time stealth surprise killing. The WW2 techniques for killing sentries as the photo on page 1 show neck thrusts. You don’t want a screaming, moaning and yelling sentry. For shits and giggles Attachment Attached File
The Old and the Bold: Fairbairn-Sykes Fighting Knife
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:11:23 AM EDT
[#19]
Have not discovered FS test on winter German coat evidence for potential kidney thrust. But technique used can affect results and overhand provides more force but these tests are on a non evasive non resistant target. Longer 12 to 20 inch medieval daggers prove far more effective as they were designed for penetrating gambesons
Dagger, Seax and Knife Thrust Test on Heavy Gambeson Saber Grip! Part 1
Dagger, Seax and Knife Thrust Test on Heavy Gambeson Rondel Grip! Part 2
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:11:52 AM EDT
[#20]
Carrying a pistol makes way more sense than a big dagger to me. That said an accessible knife is a good thing to have in class you get in a clench and need to go all sewing machine on a fool.

A man also needs a tool knife, and your average tool knife makes a better stabber than a purpose built dagger makes a tool. Therefore if it came down to it I'd rather have a good bowie style or bushcraft knife than a dagger,

If I decided I wanted a purpose built fighting knife it would be something Gerber MK2 ish over a F-S

An F-S is a cool collector piece though.

This whole post is also a tag to look at all the cool links.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:17:16 AM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
Second video I'm calling bullshit on the tomahawk not penetrating clothing. Once that edge starts splitting it's not going to stop until the force is exausted or the blade has bottomed out.
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I've got an American Tomahawk Company Model 1, and with the factory edge profile at least it would suck at penetrating clothing with the primary edge.

Probably not so much with the spike.

Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:20:27 AM EDT
[#22]
Sykes and Fairbairn also designed another knife to complement the dagger.

The Smatchet





Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:20:34 AM EDT
[#23]
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Quoted:
Carrying a pistol makes way more sense than a big dagger to me. That said an accessible knife is a good thing to have in class you get in a clench and need to go all sewing machine on a fool.

A man also needs a tool knife, and your average tool knife makes a better stabber than a purpose built dagger makes a tool. Therefore if it came down to it I'd rather have a good bowie style or bushcraft knife than a dagger,

If I decided I wanted a purpose built fighting knife it would be something Gerber MK2 ish over a SF,

An SF is a cool collector piece though.

This whole post is also a tag to look at all the cool links.
View Quote

What you described is exactly how the majority of WW2 infantrymen especially in the USMC decided to do. But there were enough personal sales of EK knives and what not to keep companies in business so maybe Marine Raiders? Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:28:04 AM EDT
[#24]
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Quoted:
Sykes and Fairbairn also designed another knife to complement the dagger. The Smatchet.


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Excellent tool, cleared out fighting positions, multi purpose.                                                                                                                                                     Attachment Attached File
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Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:32:37 AM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
Second video I'm calling bullshit on the tomahawk not penetrating clothing. Once that edge starts splitting it's not going to stop until the force is exausted or the blade has bottomed out.
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These guys talk way too much for 5 minutes or so but fast forward and they penetrated a gambeson
Axes Vs. Gambeson and Car Hood Plus Thrown Rocks Viewer Reply!
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:56:20 AM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
Have not discovered FS test on winter German coat evidence for potential kidney thrust. But technique used can affect results and overhand provides more force but these tests are on a non evasive non resistant target. Longer 12 to 20 inch medieval daggers prove far more effective as they were designed for penetrating gambesons
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The neck shot definately seems to be the preferred silent kill method with the F-S, however it wouldn't have not always been possible against a guy who might be wearing a steel helmet and all sorts of other gear that could get in the way.

In that case, or in situations when silence was not an issue, the designers saw to it that their knife would still be suitable against other targets.

I trained with this guy back in the day:

Wolfe Devil's Brigade FSSF | Wolfes Combatives



Link Posted: 8/29/2022 3:05:08 AM EDT
[#27]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Ken "Killer" McCoy endorses them for defense against aggressive Italians.
/media/mediaFiles/sharedAlbum/capReference-550.jpg


Ditto
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 3:20:42 AM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The neck shot definately seems to be the preferred silent kill method with the F-S, however it wouldn't have not always been possible against a guy who might be wearing a steel helmet and all sorts of other gear that could get in the way.

In that case, or in situations when silence was not an issue, the designers saw to it that their knife would still be suitable against other targets.

I trained with this guy back in the day:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haP1nRF6mF4


View Quote

Technique looks proper but again no winter coat reference and the only reference of that is from a post WW2 navy veteran knife collector on FS penetrating coats. I’d prefer to see evidence. I got in an unarmed fight with a guy once and I tried to break his neck using the technique I was told would work, he ended up twirling around like a pig on a spit and it didn’t work. So I guess I can find a replica coat and test it out, video tape the results, take questions feedback and repeat to see what happens. One of the knife fights I was in, I got stabbed but the jacket I had reduced the penetration by a surprising amount and I was able to continue but the guy after seeing that panicked and ran off. Cops were called by witnesses and he was later arrested. That was before I went out and bought stab vests and cut resistant gloves etc. that was just what i happened to be wearing. Of course I was evasive and resisting so I wasn’t a still non moving target just letting him wail on me. This video shows 2 incompetent guys slashing away with knives on British news
Greenwich knife battle - Thugs slash each other with giant blades in broad daylight
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 3:35:21 AM EDT
[#29]
UFC fighter Darren Till talks about being stabbed during a bar fight
That Time Darren Till Got Stabbed in a Night Club
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 4:04:11 AM EDT
[#30]
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Now I want a dagger but I don't want to spend a forture. Back in the day I missed the opportunity to get a Gerber MKI

I don't want to spend a fortune on one. Something like this looks practical https://ontarioknife.com/collections/classic-tactical-1/products/mark-iii-trench-knife?variant=31397367218262


I've been looking at this one at the same price.

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/KAEK44/ka-bar-john-ek-commando-ek-model-4-fixed-double-edge-1095-dagger-blade-gfn-handles-celcon-sheath

If you can go up to ~$2xx, the presentation model is a lot closer to the OG EK daggers (which are still available on the 'bay).

https://www.knifecenter.com/item/KAEK13/ka-bar-john-ek-commando-ek-presentation-knife-double-edge-440c-dagger-blade-walnut-handles-leather-sheath
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 4:06:24 AM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
Quoted:

Haven't seen anyone making that claim. What I have seen people saying in this thread, is "Best to avoid".

Unless I have no choice or better options, the risk involved in going hands on with someone armed with a knife, is just too high for me to chance. Best option is to shoot them from outside contact range.

https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/459941/351E0A66-F299-41FC-975A-ECDC1E557CDF_jpe-2506979.JPG

And where, in any of that, is the assertion that someone is 100% screwed going against a knife?
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 4:14:20 AM EDT
[#32]
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Quoted:

And where, in any of that, is the assertion that someone is 100% screwed going against a knife?
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Dude I give up you live in your world and act like I’m not in that world
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 6:00:33 AM EDT
[#33]
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Quoted:

Also thankfully 87% of people have no clue what they’re doing. I’ve had people attempt stab me in Europe and California hence my interest in the topic. I’m still here, I’m not dead or on life support or in a wheelchair. Cops arrived after it was over every single time. In London it was multiple attackers but only one had a box cutter the others were using hammers and a variety of tools. After that I bought stab vest, wore quality leather jacket that zipped up over my neck with prison guard style gloves for cut resistance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvq9uCXds_A
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Quoted:

Yeah, I've seen successful knife disarms.

Helps if they're unskilled and you have a stremgth advantage, but I don't see the beginning of that emcounter. If the other guy is already getting stabby/slashy, the risk goes up significantly vs someone just holding/brandishing a knife.

Also thankfully 87% of people have no clue what they’re doing. I’ve had people attempt stab me in Europe and California hence my interest in the topic. I’m still here, I’m not dead or on life support or in a wheelchair. Cops arrived after it was over every single time. In London it was multiple attackers but only one had a box cutter the others were using hammers and a variety of tools. After that I bought stab vest, wore quality leather jacket that zipped up over my neck with prison guard style gloves for cut resistance https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvq9uCXds_A


@CarmelBytheSea
What is happening in that video?   Where’s it from?
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 7:24:20 AM EDT
[#35]
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Quoted:
Carrying a pistol makes way more sense than a big dagger to me. That said an accessible knife is a good thing to have in class you get in a clench and need to go all sewing machine on a fool.

A man also needs a tool knife, and your average tool knife makes a better stabber than a purpose built dagger makes a tool. Therefore if it came down to it I'd rather have a good bowie style or bushcraft knife than a dagger,

If I decided I wanted a purpose built fighting knife it would be something Gerber MK2 ish over a F-S

An F-S is a cool collector piece though.

This whole post is also a tag to look at all the cool links.
View Quote


I am not a knife person but always thought the Glock knife was a good compromise between utility tool and stabbing dagger.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 12:57:03 PM EDT
[#36]
i had one as a kid i bought in 1969 for 75 cents from the local army navy store.
this is the closest one have now.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 1:54:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:04:27 PM EDT
[#38]
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Quoted:
i had one as a kid i bought in 1969 for 75 cents from the local army navy store.
this is the closest one have now.
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/548207/IMG_1731_JPG-2507466.jpg
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is this same knife used by Bishop in Aliens?
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:11:33 PM EDT
[#39]
This from an interesting book I picked up a couple days ago on Apple Books for a couple of bucks.

“Some spoke well of the dagger as a killing weapon, others did not. I knew one older vet who always kept a Fairbairn–Sykes close at hand in uniform or civilian clothing, on or off duty. Another World War II vet told a story about a Fairbairn–Sykes that “broke off in a Nazi,” and he thought they were total junk. It is my understanding that wartime production of the Fairbairn–Sykes, like that of the KA-BAR, varied a great deal. Still other Fairbairn–Sykes were treated as legacy items or, considering that some of them had been bloodied in combat, as revered relics.”

Excerpt From
The Tactical Knife
James Morgan Ayres & Mykel Hawke
https://books.apple.com/us/book/the-tactical-knife/id1448382516
This material may be protected by copyright.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:21:37 PM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:


Examples of how all knife attacks are "stabbings" regardless of the blade used.

Like all rifles are an AR or AK.
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Would be nice if I saw more than text replies I’m the only one bit limiting assertions strictly based off my experiences or opinion. If what I’m writing is so obviously incorrect there should be available evidence to educate me with. Nobody in the thread can make a video? I’ve got to do that too?
Arrows v's Gambeson fabric armour
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Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:27:54 PM EDT
[#41]
Attachment Attached File


I've got the Case V-42 version they made in 1992.  It's beautiful and never been used.  I really have no use for it because I don't want to mess it up.  Off to ebay
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:30:06 PM EDT
[#42]
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Yeah, it’s a fantastic aquarium I just got disappointed when management there went woke. But yeah there’s jazz festivals and all kinds of stuff to enjoy. Carmel has more rules but you can enjoy bonfires on the beach and watch the sunset go down which is nicer than east coast sunsets on the Atlantic side with way better weather in the summer.
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You forgot the aquarium. Best part.

Yeah, it’s a fantastic aquarium I just got disappointed when management there went woke. But yeah there’s jazz festivals and all kinds of stuff to enjoy. Carmel has more rules but you can enjoy bonfires on the beach and watch the sunset go down which is nicer than east coast sunsets on the Atlantic side with way better weather in the summer.

Liked the aquarium.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:31:36 PM EDT
[#43]
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You know 1 bedrooms are now $1,000 or up in Reseda. But San Fernando valley is still affordable if you can deal with the heat.
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There's always porn

You know 1 bedrooms are now $1,000 or up in Reseda. But San Fernando valley is still affordable if you can deal with the heat.

How’s Riverside?
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:33:18 PM EDT
[#44]
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Liked the aquarium.
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My son really liked the sea otters so we got him a sweatshirt from the gift store
Monterey Bay Aquarium Otter Pup 3/6/2016
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:34:11 PM EDT
[#45]
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Quoted:



is this same knife used by Bishop in Aliens?
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i think so
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 2:39:56 PM EDT
[#46]
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Quoted:

My son really liked the sea otters so we got him a sweatshirt from the gift store https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ydd1WTFJo
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Liked the aquarium.

My son really liked the sea otters so we got him a sweatshirt from the gift store https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_ydd1WTFJo

Haha still owe you a brew next time we’re in the same area. My family trip to Big Sur was bad ass but we missed each other when I was in the Bay Area.
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 3:27:03 PM EDT
[#47]
"Fairbairn-Sykes Commando knife, Capt. Fairbairn himself had acknowledged was seriously deficient in three critical areas:

(1) It was a "stabber," not a "slasher"; the narrow, thick blade did not take the edge necessary for the best "thrust-slash" style of attack.

(2) Combat reports showed that the Fairbairn-Sykes was weak and tended to break at the tip and cross guard area.

(3) The round handle would slip in a sweaty palm; it was not possible to draw the knife and know, by feel, whether the cutting edge was in the proper position."
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source: Soldier of Fortune magazine
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 3:37:51 PM EDT
[#48]
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Quoted:

Technique looks proper but again no winter coat reference and the only reference of that is from a post WW2 navy veteran knife collector on FS penetrating coats. I’d prefer to see evidence. I got in an unarmed fight with a guy once and I tried to break his neck using the technique I was told would work, he ended up twirling around like a pig on a spit and it didn’t work. So I guess I can find a replica coat and test it out, video tape the results, take questions feedback and repeat to see what happens. One of the knife fights I was in, I got stabbed but the jacket I had reduced the penetration by a surprising amount and I was able to continue but the guy after seeing that panicked and ran off. Cops were called by witnesses and he was later arrested. That was before I went out and bought stab vests and cut resistant gloves etc. that was just what i happened to be wearing. Of course I was evasive and resisting so I wasn’t a still non moving target just letting him wail on me.
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What kind of knife was it?

10 years ago it would have been a lot easier to find relevant info, but this is about all I could find with today's marginal search engines:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbairn–Sykes_fighting_knife

"The length of the blade was chosen to give several inches of blade to penetrate the body after passing through the 3 in (7.6 cm) of the thickest clothing that was anticipated to be worn in the war, namely that of Soviet greatcoats. Later production runs of the F–S fighting knife have a blade length that is about 7.5 in (19 cm). "
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 5:36:05 PM EDT
[#49]
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Quoted:


What kind of knife was it?

10 years ago it would have been a lot easier to find relevant info, but this is about all I could find with today's marginal search engines:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fairbairn–Sykes_fighting_knife

"The length of the blade was chosen to give several inches of blade to penetrate the body after passing through the 3 in (7.6 cm) of the thickest clothing that was anticipated to be worn in the war, namely that of Soviet greatcoats. Later production runs of the F–S fighting knife have a blade length that is about 7.5 in (19 cm). "
View Quote

I’ll search for a DDR coat, I double check but I believe those were the same as the WW2 winter coats and test a non Chinesium FS on it. Film results and find out usIng the WW2 method of employment. The kind of knife I dealt with was similar to a Boot knife Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 8/29/2022 5:49:53 PM EDT
[#50]
The one in London was a box cutter like this Attachment Attached File
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