Actually I like the sound of ARC (advanced rifle cartridge) better than grendel

Grendel is like Legend, is like Beowulf, is like Raptor, is like Valkyrie to me.

A cute marketing name that has little to do with what the cartridge is supposed to do. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

For the serious shooter/reloader, not mil., I'm just not seeing it.  

Smaller case capacity (very minor) than the basic 6mm AR (and by extension, less than the 6mm AR Turbo and the 6mm AR Turbo 40).  

Pros are factory ammo, plus no fire forming of necked down grendel brass.  Use cheaper dies, as opposed to the more expensive Redding Dies.  

Barrel life will be basically the same as 6mm AR, but better than the Turbo/Turbo 40.  Loaded to the same velocity, they will all be basically the same.  

Same mags, same barrels, and the only difference is minor tweeks of the chamber.  

If I was buying now, Robert W. would get my cash.  Plus, he is a super nice guy.  

243 won't fit in a small-frame AR.  Neither will a 6 CM.

We're talking about a cartridge meant for a military application.

The poster said it was fantasy to shoot to 1000yds more than reality.

I explained why that isn't true for the type of people the cartridge is meant for.

You have a problem with that, then make it personal.

I literally don't understand where you're coming from.  Your comments make zero sense to me and I have no idea why you even posted.

Really what unit picked it up? I'm sure you have no idea since being pretentious is your go to play. The poster said its fantasy and for 99% of people it is

Very cool.

What about 6mm AR Turbo 40 Improved?

This will make a great caribou cartridge. Grendel does too, but this should have more retained energy at distance.

Like when they got 300 blackout?

Why in the hell do threads devolve into bullshit.


It’s a cool round, and an evolution of existing tech. Hardly worth getting all pissy about.

I think people just want to be on the record as contrary but at the same time in the right.  Most new calibers amount to nothing so it's a safe subject to be edgy with.

But I can see this succeeding where others have failed as it is not trying to be something that it is not. They're also not overselling the military application(as far as I have seen) which is kind of weird.

First and only thought I had. “Uses Grendel mags” means we will eventually see someone other than mostly okay Elander get into the mag game. Everything else I’ve tried is pure junk.

He’s also an asshat who shot himself in the foot and wouldn’t let others allow the round to bloom to its full potential. I love 6.5G, but no love lost on Alexander not making a profit

Until I can buy 6mm ARC steel case blasting ammo for $5/box I’m sticking with Grendel...

Attached File

Opposite is true.

By protecting the standard as much as he could, and Hornady taking it to SAAMI, it worked out to the cartridge's benefit.

He also spent 7 years going back and forth with the people at Barnaul to make sure the steel cased ammo was dialed in correctly.

What would you describe as reaching its full potential when you have over 90 factory loads for it, SAAMI, CIP, Hornady, Federal, PPU, Barnes, Wolf, Sellier & Bellot, and even Remington now?

I've never seen a cartridge come out of a small shop and achieve that level of proliferation in my lifetime.

Every successful rifle cartridge has been developed or taken over by one of the big companies, then promoted like crazy as if it was the cat's meow when they usually didn't offer anything new and practical for the shooter.

Most of them have been total flops when you look back.

Precious few have caught on in the market.

For someone most people have never heard of to come along and successfully engineer and test a new cartridge that truly did something unique and useful for a change, that is pretty abnormal in the market.

Think about the Ruger Compact Magnums, .25-45 Sharps, Hornady 6mm Hagar, .22 Nosler, .30 Remington AR, Hornady's .30 TC (parent to the 6.5 Creedmoor), .338 Federal, Winchester's .350 Legend, .45 Raptor, etc.

Most of those had big name support, got SAAMI approved, huge advertisement budgets put behind them, major rifle makers chambering and building rifles and mags for, gun rag articles written, gun reviewers paid and sent rifles and ammo to test, and ammo production schedules pried into so these could be worked in even though there is already a ton of demand for .223 Rem, .243 Winchester, .308 Winchester, .30-06 Springfield, and .300 Win Mag.

What is it that a small shop that was started by an MOD engineer from the UK did that was able to break free and gain so much market traction?

Marry relevant performance from within one of the most popular rifle frames on the market, low recoil, lower chamber pressure, and an existing large selection of projectiles that would fit in the brass without exceeding the magazine-limited COL of the AR15.  Make it in a bore diameter that people will be comfortable taking medium game with that was allowed by most States at the time and their arbitrary bore diameter requirements, and build a factory ammunition supply for it internally as well as with one of the bigger ammunition manufacturers in the US.  Sell plenty of brass and dies to support it initially, with as many uppers and barrel/bolt combos so people could upgrade their existing AR15s.

ASC, C-Products, and Stone-AR.

Across untold numbers of rifles of all barrel lengths and gas system lengths, shooting a wide variety of ammunition, I have had the best results with CProducts and CProducts Defense (CPD) magazines made during a particular time period of 2009-2013.

Elanders have been the next best.

The magazine market has not been as consistent for some as one would like.

There are also a lot of barrels, rifles, and parts bashed together out there with anyone's guess about how the chain of custody was handled.

That’s one point I’ve view. Another is varying spec bolt depths, out of spec grendel barrels, and a very limited mag market. If Barnaul didn’t make steel case ammo then Grendel would be no different than most of the cartridges you listed. Grendel could have made 6.8 SPC an irrelevant blip if marketed correctly back closer to its inception.

AA always maintained the correct bolt face depth and specs.

After-market companies who didn't do their due diligence in engineering thought they could just order bolts made for gunshow-grade companies who offered untested 7.62x39 bolts, with barrels reamed with chambers of dubious origin, sold at volume price points with no real customer support.

The rivalry between 6.5 Grendel and 6.8 SPC started at the Blackwater shoot because the 6.8 guys didn't know about it until they saw it there, refused to attempt the same auto glass barrier defeat at 500yds, then ran off to SHOT Show and told everybody what a piece of crap it was.

It helped sell both cartridges by there being a constant battle, because both kept popping up in articles and online discussions.

Bill A. once said he could have never paid for better advertising than what the 6.8 guys did at SHOT in 2004.  After running around to everyone's booth and telling them about this new super secret cartridge for SOCOM that was going to be adopted soon, they would finish with, "By the way, there's this other cartridge out there called the 6.5 Grendel.  It's a piece of crap that you need a long barrel to shoot, otherwise it's garbage.  6.8 does way better from 16" barrels like our Speshul Farces carry.  You need to chamber in it NOW because DOD will be calling orders anytime now."

The 6.8 initial proponents did more to market for the 6.5 Grendel than Bill could have.  After those initial pushes, all these people were asking about 6.5 Grendel having been pitched the 6.8 script.

Then the customers get passionate about it and it spreads like wildfire.  

It's a great study in marketing I think.  Everybody ends up winning provided there is actual performance advantage offered by each competitor.

What we really need are more good reputable magazine options.... nudge nudge @brownells

I sure hope there as good as grendel mags......

I'm still failing to see what this does better than 6.5g other than less recoil, someone explain to me. I can't brain, brain too smol

How does it compare down range? Still kill shit dead as fuck at 600ish yards?

Cool, thanks.

interested to see 18" barrel results.

was about to build a 18" barreled gun in 6.5 creedmoor but if the 6mm arc doesnt suck in 18 i might do that first since i already have 90% of the stuff for another ar15 and 0% of the stuff for an ar10.

I think the real hotness for this caliber would be the 88gr 6mm Flatline:

https://www.warner-tool.com/product/6-5-mm-88gr/



At 0.258 G7, its pretty close in BC to the 108gr ELD's .270 G7.

Yet being a full 20gr lighter, its' going be flying at much higher velocity.

No shit.

My point is. Cartridges are driven by hunting applications. The 6.5G is an example of that. AA developed it for that application.

The 224V failed, it didn’t live up to the hype and the hunting crowd didn’t bite because of the small pill stigma. Of course it will kill a deer but it wasn’t marketed for that.

This won’t succeed because it will not perform as well on deer as the 6.5G and the 6.5G already has that market.

The the 243 is the smallest bullet diameter many states allow and that is marginal in the mind of many hunters. AR hunters won’t buy it over the 6.5G and hunting does greatly influence the cartridge market.

How do your 6.5G guns shoot?

If you don’t make one, why not?  It is a better cartridge.

If it kills coyotes at further distances and deader than 223/556 in a standard AR config, I'm in...

I am curious how you qualify that a caliber failed?

New cartridges aren't diven by hunting anymore. Competition shooters buy much more ammunition than hunters. I think the success of 6.5 creedmoor is enough evidence of that

Well since 95% of competition shooters are not using a 6.5cm I'll be sceptical.

Wait what.... is that a typo?

PRS begs to differ, most rifles at a PRS or NRL match are 6.5CM

He should have said target shooters including recreational.

PRS is brought to you by... the number 6.

18-month old article

Yea, 6mm is the round for PRS.

I’m familiar with that.
That’s top shooters, there are plenty of 6.5CMs used by new shooters and the average competitor.

I can’t believe I’m defending the creedmoor

I love my 6.5cm rifles for hunting and I wouldnt feel like I couldn't be competitive at a match with them. If your serious about competition though 6mms are popular for a reason. So no most PRS NRL are not using 6.5. All about that no recoil, spotting impacts life. My shoulder is as fragile as my ego.

Hornady need to figure out how to load 5.56 that doesn’t explode rifles before trying to make another flavor of the month.

Sounds good, but  not having cheap ammo kind of takes the fun out of it

I guess we can argue the difference between a participant and a competitor.  I participate in matches, but dirt-shooting' ass ain't competing.  

I have two 6.5CMs in the safe.  When I finally get around to building an F-Class gun, it'll be in 7mm most likely.

Hornady didn’t load it. Maybe you should take your bullshit elsewhere so the rest of us can whine about new calibers

I was just thinking I needed another expensive wildcat to round out my odd ball calibers.

I'm not throwing rocks at it.  Just, after providing the examples of the two predecessor rounds, there is no reason to even mention it.  

The point is made without it.  

As in, hypothetically, if the 911 is superior to the very best corvette can offer, no need to mention the GT2 or the GT3.  That's a given.      

I was going to ask him which one he decided on lol