Last version of this thread got archived.  But with the release of the 365 flux raider, another thread got me inspired to restart the topic because I think it's a useful one.  

So to get some boilerplate out of the way:

I know, I know, pedantic Phil.  A PDW has to be full auto to be a “real” PDW.  If you have actual full auto stuff, awesome.  Flex on the poors and you're right...full auto>semi auto.  

For the rest of us, what the heck is a Personal Defense Weapon, or a Civilian PDW?  I'll link some youtuber videos below, but from the last thread: something with more capacity or capability than your EDC pistol that can still be concealed easier than a rifle.  

A 10.3" mk18 SBR wouldn't really make the cut as a "PDW" because even a 10" AR is too big to easily conceal in something like a standard backpack.  A 10.3" AR with a law folder probably barely fits the definition, though it's really at the extreme of both size and weight for the category.
Mostly this is going to be stuff like short barrel pccs, chassis/brace'd handguns, sig rattler, etc.  So whats the use case?  In the first version of this thread someone came up with the phrase "medium spicy" and I think its a perfect descriptor.

Think uptick in random protests that could turn violent, general slowed emergency service responses, localized natural disaster, whatever, but everyone trying to keep life going as normal.  A situation where you still have to get your work and errands done, but the potential for violence is significantly higher than normal.    

Thats why concealment for pdws is a huge factor.  Yeah, you want more performance than just your handgun, but anything big that looks like it could conceal a long gun, much less openly carrying a rifle might get you too much scrutiny by either authorities or bad actors.

Regular edc: white suburban housewife spicy
Pdws: medium spicy
Actual rifles: hot spice
Raid the armory and handout the beltfeds: thai spicy

And to get the ball rolling and address some of the common arguments about the merits of the concept from the last thread so yall don't have to read 9 pages:    

I completely get the “its either the edc pistol or an actual rifle” argument from some folks, especially if you train seriously with your pistol.  

A big advantage in my mind is if I hand my wife a pdw, she goes from “not very useful with a gun” to “might actually stop a threat”.  Same with a lot of my non gun friends.  Just based on casual range days with gun owning friends who aren't actually "shooters", they suck ass with a pistol but can actually make hits with a mp5k or other pdws.  I dont think anyone will argue that pistol rounds are superior to rifle rounds, but most people have an easier time making hits with a pistol caliber pdw than a pistol.  Especially for people who do not train or compete with pistol, the difference in ability to make hits that I've seen is significant.  

The size and weight difference between pistol and rifle pdws is pretty big too.  Big enough one might actually get carried/concealed while the other would be left at home.  And the pistol pdw in your bag beats the hell out of the rifle at home.  There are always tradeoffs but pistol caliber pdws offer a good mix of shootability and concealability that makes them an interesting option for civilian use in those previously mentioned “medium spicy” scenarios.

Which is kind of the point of this thread.  Feels like a potentially medium spicy year.

I'll post videos about the concept and pics of some of my "pdw" options and thoughts on them below but in the meantime enjoy one of the OG PDWs in the most grayman bag you've ever seen.  

I have an MP5k in a laptop bag. I have a tritium front sight and a surefire X300u mounted on it. I also have two 30rd mags clamped together and two spare 30s in the laptop bag. I hope that is enough.

Anyone have experience with a Recover Tactical braced chassis? I see that they are available, and my interest is piqued.

I think a Sig Rattler or LT, etc in 300 offers a lot and checks a lot of boxes.

Of course, they are fairly expensive though.

Finally got around to installing a folding brace on my CZ Scorpion Evo and picked up an AUG.

I feel pretty good in the PDW department.

If Ruger wasn't tard'd they'd flood the market with F1 ready AC556K pistols

Stribog SP9A3S
FLUX Raider 360

The bag is a nice touch!

I'm afraid to look up what M11s go for these days, cause then I'll want one again

ETA: Hot dog, they have almost tripled in price since the last time I looked.  The $15k price tag will keep them out of my head for another decade.

If I had the need and or money a Rattler in 300Blk would tick a lot of boxes and is easy to conceal.

I am good with my Pistol.

Anything less than a full size rifle pretty much fills the niche.
Rear echelon troops that were unlikely to need a rifle but needed something easier to shoot than a pistol.

If you want your medium spicy option to be in a rifle caliber, the Rattler absolutely kicks ass.  Not sure there's a better rifle caliber pdw out there.  

Downsides are of course as you mentioned expense, plus weight.  

This is my Rattler with 20 rounds of 110gr 300blk, no can, minimalist stock.  Didn't even throw a light on it.  



Compare that to something like a flux raider with 38 rounds of 124gr 9mm.  



The Raider isn't as capable as a Rattler for sure, but there's something to be said for lighter and smaller.  

I think that's what this version of the thread will come back to over and over again is there is going to be a trade off no matter what you choose, especially in the pdw realm.  

But this is theoretically a gun discussion forum so we might as well discuss some guns, dang it.  

HK SP5

I really like this in .556, 4.75” barrel.

I know a lot of you think it is too short for .556, but I don’t have to add a caliber I don’t already have.  Add sights/optic of your choice.

Fits in Jansport backpack.

Put whatever lower on it you want, same mags and ammo you already have.

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I have the 10.3” AR, and the LAW folder. I just need to install it.

PS90 with a mini-ACOG in a TROS ultra low mount for the win!

You’d be better going with a handgun caliber at that length. You get the fireball and concussion of 5.56, but the performance of 5.7x28

Do they not offer the Raider for Glock ?

Mostly because it used Glock magazines, I bought a PSA AR-9 with a brace. It isn’t the most interesting firearm that I own but it is small and fun to shoot, far more accurate than a pistol and all my non-shooting friends love it.

I think everyone should have at least one.

Every day I regret not buying an M11/380 when they were sub $10k.

I had forgotten about it for a while. Then Flannel Daddy made his Mac-11 video..... DAMN IT! SONOFABITCH DAMNIT!!! The intro to that video is a masterpiece.

One of these days... 'Tis my one and only grail gun.

.556?

That's less than 1mm diameter.

What is this? A gun for ants??


Lol. It's 5.56mm

Or .223 caliber.

And yeah...5.56 out of a 4.5" barrel is pointless. Might as well be shooting .22 magnum.

I've got a 7.5" 5.56 pistol but it's more for fun. Even 7.5" is pretty low velocity.

I think this is my favorite setup for this role.

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Plus people know not to fuck with you if you are willing to play Russian roulette by using an sig.

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1688

What buffer/spring combo are you running for that thing?

Nice.  

I stole the SBRd FCU out of my USW to put in the Flux.  Recently bought a safety equipped  version of the 320 fcu so I can SBR it, didn't feel comfortable using the USW as a bag gun without a manual safety.  

The USW is definitely on the "as close as you can get to a pistol, but with options" side of the spectrum, but I like mine too.  

Always cracked me up that the tried to call the Evo the modern Skorpion when the B&T really hits the same form factor.  

I don’t want to add any new calibers.

I’m from the old school and have .40 cal, not a lot of options for me without a large cost and trying to ensure reliability.

Respectfully asking these questions regarding the OPs scenario…


Fireball and concussion of .556?  I already have my glasses on and have my hearing protection with me.  Wouldn’t that be a good thing?

Performance of 5.7 x 28?  Isn’t that enough?

Carbine, H buffer.

I’ve been using 223 bulk ammo because I have it.

Runs like a top.

Thanks for restarting this.  Hopefully this one won’t cost me any more money.

I have one on my Glock 34. I love it. The only thing is, I’m trying to devise some sort of trigger covering so I can carry it with a round in the chamber in a backpack. But it’s definitely well worth the money.

Just got a .300 blackout Rattler upper and am in the process of getting it setup. It will be a road trip/overnight gun. Really thinking about the new Flux 365 deal too. Just looks like a neat little package.

I've got one for a P80 frame; I found some on sale for 50% off when the 80% mess started so figured it'd be a cheap way give the concept a try with an eye towards the B&T chassis if i liked it. It works about as expected if you've watched some of the handful of videos on it, Hop's take on it in his two vidoes is about the best.  

Yes, it, along with a couple of Glock 24rnd mags, fits easily in a messenger bag and with an optic I do think it works well enough for its intended niche market (it's another of the Israeli designs, IIRC) and narrow purpose.  It certainly would not be my first choice but l actually like it better than say the Sub2000.  I've got other, better options in larger platforms but again, it fits in a very small niche, and it's kinda fun.  It's run fine with a suppressor hanging off the front too.


ETA, their "holster" that it clips into covers the trigger and there are some backplates that with allow you to use it on say molle webbing or you could use it as a triggerguard holster by attaching it inside your bag so that it popped off when you pull (like folks use with fanny packs and chest packs).  I've got one of their clip holster things but haven't really messed with it yet, the gun has just been a range toy.  I'm not saying there are less expensive versions on ebay, Amazon or the Chinese websites, but there are copies available (no, not recommending them, just saying I've seen them).  

https://recovertactical.com/product/g7-owb-holster-for-all-double-stack-glock-9mm-sw40-357-pistols-that-have-an-integral-rail/

And the mounts:
https://recovertactical.com/shop/?swoof=1&product_tag=holsters&paged=1

I've had my eyes on either a 9mm AR pistol or something like th CZ Scorpion.
I know someone on here knows, but whats the sweet spot on barrel length for 9mm ballistically speaking?

Are you going to suppress it?

9-10 inches

This is why 7.5 inch ar-10s exist.

Not mine, but I still need to complete my slide with Optic.

Good enough for Bonnie and Clyde, good enough for me.
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Put a force resett or binary on that thing.

EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

My TP9 SBR is the go-to for this role for me.

I only wish it had a better trigger. Other than that, even with the can it’s a perfect size.

It is kinda a no brainer for me. 18.5” without the can. Usually keep it set for 300blk, but i have a 5.56 barrel for it as well.

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Its current config is a little flashy, and 2” longer, but it will still do the job.

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So what's available that takes glock mags but has a manual safety?

Yeah.
I have one of theirs that fits G-17 and frame pistols.
It’s, meh.

It sits, sans pistol, on top of a safe.
Effective? Yes. Three point contact improves accuracy and recover time.
Practical? Not IMHO. take it as a sample of one, but it’s not even on my pistol anymore…

It allows better accuracy, but it’s still just your pistol.
It’s bulky. Thicccc.
Plus, and to me deal breaker, it’s MUCH slower to deploy.
Pistols are for last ditch, or CQB, or because you’re primary is dry, etc…

Wanna shoot a pistol round? 9mm braced pistol. MP5. Even a Sub2000.

Me? My “PDW” is either a 10” braced AR, or my under folder AK.  
I have pistols for pistol rounds. At least in SA…

8” 5.56 for me on PDW duty. Usually with 55gr SP or 62gr Sabre Black Tip.

The 55s still expand nicely at these velocities and have 700ish ft lbs of energy.

The new CAA MCK Micro Roni version 3 has an open slot to use a pistol slide mounted RDS, instead of the original rail that kept birdshot sized groups. Looks pretty cool

7.5” 5.56
4.5” 9mm
Glock 17 in the NFA version of the Recover 20/20 system

I would say a concealable Level II soft armor vest is a sounder life insurance policy for higher threat / periods of disorder where life is still happening.

My writeup based on my lessons from the first spooky 2 weeks of coof here in Vegas:

https://www.ar15.com/forums/Armory/Midwest-Stinger-Level-II-Review-an-affordable-and-concealable-vest-for-weird-times/10-517294/



Personally, if tension rises above J-frame EDC level, the next step is not a bigger pistol or a PDW, its chucking on my vest. And I say that as a PDW owner and enthusiast.