Posted: 3/6/2005 5:23:51 PM EDT
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After seeing the rediculous vid of the guy in the pizza shop getting beaten,a bad dream and a really interesting article I read regarding personal saftey I got to thinking. With that said,hear me out.The hypothetical situation where I may have to use a firearm isn't the one that concerns me.However,a more likely situation where I am in a bind and using a firearm will,most likely,get me in some serious trouble is what is concerning me. I am not a "small" guy.However,I am not a "big" guy either.I feel that I can handle myself,if need be.Yet,what about a situation where someone,you can see it coming,starts being a biligerent and you may not be able to deal with them on a strictly hand-to-hand basis. This is where my question of something "less lethal", yet effective ,like an ASP comes in.My line of thinking was that if a problem came about and I was to have something like an ASP I would be able to put the person down and get the hell out of Dodge without attracting a lot of attention.When I say down I also don't mean clocking them in the head.Obviously,if you use a firearm this won't be the case. I have a CCW.I just view using my handgun as a very last resort.So,for any of you that have experience with an ASP or can recomend something like it shed some light on this for me(Arfcom members that are Police officers etc).My experience with one of these is about as extensive as holding one,opening it,closing it ,then putting it down. |
I thought you were talking about the custom made S&W ASP 9mm pistol made way back in the day.  This is from world.guns.ru/handguns/hg147-e.htm Type: Double Action Calibers: 9x19 mm Luger/Parabellum Weight unloaded: not known Length: ~ 173 mm Barrel length: ~83 mm Capacity: 7 rounds The ASP pistol has been developed by American gunsmith Paris Theodore in early 1970s. It is believed that the design was inspired by some US government organisation(s) which required a compact and powerful handgun for its undercover agents, operating worldwide. Some years later (circa 1982-83), small batch of ASP pistols (about 250 to 300 pieces) has been released to the American market; these guns were manufactured by Armament Systems and Procedures company. After that, this gun was never manufactured. The ASP pistol was designed as a deep concealment weapon, and thus had a compact size and no-snag appearance, with distinctive shape. The most interesting thing about the ASP is its patented Guttersnipe sight, which required no front sight blade. The relatively large rear sight block had an open-top tunnel, through which the shooter aimed the gun. This was not the best long-range arrangement, but the ASP was intended for close-range clandestine work only, so this sight was good enough - fast and snag-proof. The ASP pistol was not an entirely original design. Instead, it was a major rebuild of the well-known Smith&Wesson Model 39 double action semiautomatic pistol. The rebuild procedure included cutting off the parts of the slide, the barrel and the grip frame, removal of the hammer spur, reshaping of the trigger guard and grip frame, and many other changes. The grip panels were made from translucent Lexan plastic, allowing the shooter to quickly observe the rounds, remaining in the magazine. All sharp corners were smoothed out, and all external surfaces were covered with black Teflon finish. The ASP retained the double action trigger with slide mounted safety-decocker of the S&W M39, as well as its short recoil operated, locked breech action. Standard S&W M39 magazine has been shortened to fit into the shorter grip of ASP, and held seven rounds of 9mm ammunition instead of original eight. |
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I've seen someone dropped by an asp with one strike to the knee. That being said, basically all an asp is, is a collapsible pipe. It's better than your hand but not as good as a nice pair of nunchucks  Also, depending on how it's used I'm not so sure that it couldn't be considered a deadly weapon. Just something else to think about. |
Civilian baton training is available. Here's one example, although they're a heck of a lot closer to me than to you: Insights Maybe check around in your Hometown forum for local instructors? |
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I dont like the ASP. It has a tendancy to break bones and tear skin. I try not to get peoples blood on me. Plus its hard to handcuff someone who has a compound fracture of the wrist/forearm. I'll stick with the old hickory baton. It will still break bones, but they stay inside the skin, no blood. |
kinda like how a concealed pistol w/o a CCW is a misdemeanor, but most likely will be bumped up to a felony? |
kinda, except you have it backwards. CCW is only a felony if the handgun is not registered to you or if you are a documented criminal streeet gang member. |
Dang. Where the heck do you work? I patrolled a downtown area for two years and never used my asp for more than whacking bums on the feet, sleeping on bus benches in order to move them along. I've broken up many fights and have had many physical altercations but I've never used my asp. I guess I've just been lucky. |
| I'd suggest a can of pepper foam for your less lethal option. Quick, quiet, the foam wont have you breathing it in so much either. It's also less likely to get you into trouble. If you've got the money the X26c taser would be a great option. After taking the 5 second ride myself I'll tell you it's no damned fun. You could give em the 5 seconds, pull the cartridge off the end of the taser and make good your escape. I damned sure wouldnt leave my taser behind. |
Seriously? It's a felony to possess an ASP? Silly question but is that true of all expanding batons or just the ASP? |
telescoping batons, including the ASP, are classified as "billy clubs" under CA PC Section 12020, I think |
| They can be very effective in the hands of someone that knows how to use it. If it is proven that someone knows how to use it and someone is injured badly or killed, then it can be considered using deadly force. So, don't expect to carry it and be able to just use it whenever. |
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As one who has actually used an ASP in more than one brawl-I have no use for them. I've had several, and everytime I've deployed one upon striking the subject, they collapse. Somebody's gonna type that I didn't "snap" it into position, or hold my mouth just right when I used it-I've been there, I've done it, and I've yet to see one work. |
What he said. I find them worthless as am impact weapon.(hell, the Streamlight is superior.) I carry a polycarbonate baton. I've never broken, bent, had a failure to comply, or caused serious injury with it. I've had all four striking subjects with an Asp. Ever put EVERYTHING you can into a forward strike and then have the subject say "OWW! That hurt!!" Then continue the fight?  That said, they ARE handy for car windows and poking things you don't want to touch with your hands.  Someone suggested pepper spray. A much better alternative in your case. |
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The pizza beating video is a good training film, but you've got to take the right lessons from it. Lesson 1 - Pay attention. The guy who got beaten could have had 3 handguns, a taser, pepper spray and a trunk monkey all hidden under his jacket and it wouldn't have a made a difference because he wasn't paying attention. He never saw the first punch coming and it stunned him pretty good and knocked him to the ground, after that it was just getting hit. Lesson 2 - Terrain dictates tactics. Weapons like a baton need room to swing to make them effective. Before the guy got hit the first time he had people standing close enough that he may have had trouble opening an ASP, let alone actually swinging it. If he could get it open he could jab/poke with it but with so little room to flick it open it likely would have just collapsed. And just imagine what it would have been like for him and all the other patrons if he'd used pepper spray in such a tight space. The best non-lethal weapon for such close quarters would probably be a stun gun, but stun guns are not an option in my area. |
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I've carried an ASP since 1993 or so. I've used one 4 or 5 times. Each time they worked for me. As stated, you need room to use them. You need to pay attention to your surroundings. I was a civilian the whole time I've carried one, although I worked in security and got training on the regular baton, PR-24, Mag Lites as a defensive weapon and the ASP. One punk kid tried to swing at me while being ejected from a property. Round house swing, I easily dodged it and followed through with a contact strike behind his left knee. Subject lost balance and started to fall, I helped him with a gentle shove on his left shoulder, then tagged, bagged and turned over to local PD. Was assisting a good female friend to remove herself from an abusive live-in boyfriend's house. Her 17 yo son was there to help move stuff out. He started to abuse her in front of me, then started in on the kid. I intervened and he started to push and shove me. I requested that he back away from me several times, which he refused and got more aggressive to me. I deployed my ASP, stuck it in his chest and pushed him back away from me several times. This guy was 6 02 and 240 lbs I'm like 5 08 and 160. He rubbed his chest after his eyes got real big and decided to retreat to his house, while making threats to me. An anonymous tip to the PD about narcotics dealing from this house and he was busted a short time later.... Was working security in Mesa, AZ and was breaking up a fight. The aggressor started towards me at full steam, with that look in his eye from about 20 feet away. I had my director about 15 feet behind me along with a uniformed Mesa PD officer. I deployed my ASP and took a defensive stance. The kid stopped short, looked at my baton and decided to become a peace loving individual. As I deployed my ASP, I heard the Mesa officer say something like somebody was getting ready to get an ass whoopin'. The ASP was a good deterrent and nobody got hurt, tazed, shot, beat, etc... I'd say it worked and I was armed at the time. I have used them to break windows, poke at things I didn't want to touch, etc as well. I like the original baton better, but an ASP is easier to conceal and carry around, so I think it makes up for it. |