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Quoted: I don’t believe it is. This shit is nothing new. I guarantee the guy in LR and what happened was a warning to other non licensed dealers. Maybe I’m wrong. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: It's nice when this site is unified against gun control. I wish it was consistent. I don’t believe it is. This shit is nothing new. I guarantee the guy in LR and what happened was a warning to other non licensed dealers. Maybe I’m wrong. Here’s something new. The ATF website used to say you could buy and resell to enhance your collection. Going to a gun show and seeing an undervalued gun, buying it and selling it for a profit an hour later to buy something you really wanted was expressly allowed. Now that purchase and resale is evidence of dealing without a license |
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Quoted: Yep. This rule, that they pretend is about background checks, is really intended to kill the secondary market and private party transfers. They want the guns to stay with the original owners because once they enter the secondary market they are too hard to trace. Plus they enjoy fucking gun owners View Quote I'm glad all the firearms I lost in the boating accident were entirely private sale. Can't help but think registration is next and they will absolutely be looking through FFL records to determine who to investigate for not registering. They'll probably need the scotua to flip to go that far but if it does, they will. |
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Quoted: Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: What if all transfers are going through an FFL? Does that make any difference?? Like most ATF decrees this rule appears to be clear as mud. Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? No. Not likely. You are still dealing the guns personally even if you are using an FFL to do a background check. If you make regular repetitious sales for profit then you need to be licensed yourself not just consign them over to another dealer. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe if you are like the guy in Little Rock, buying stuff on fri and selling on sat. Or the cops out in calif buying off roster stuff and flipping them. It states right there if you are in the business. Those guys mentioned are in the business. It also provides the following example as being "in the business of" selling firearms: Repetitively resells or offers for resale firearms— (i) Within 30 days after the person purchased the firearms; or (ii) Within one year after the person purchased the firearms if they are— (A) New, or like new in their original packaging; or (B) The same make and model, or variants thereof; "Repetitively" is open to their interpretation. Could be as little as two for all we know. None of that applies to me. I keep on doing what I’m doing. You've never bought a gun, shot it a few times and realized you didn't like it? You're now a dealer if you don't wait a year to sell it, or throw away the box. Lots of guys here are in the never sell a gun camp. I’ve won guns at matches and immediately listed them for sale. Can’t do that anymore. I still want to know what happens when a family inherits a gun collection. Keep or sell. Up to you. It would be pure profit if a person were to sell them. And if someone in the family uses excel to catalog the collection before selling it and splitting the profits, it's double illegal. |
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View Quote Easy to say until your door is getting kicked in at 0500 with weapons pointed at you. |
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Quoted: It would be pure profit if a person were to sell them. And if someone in the family uses excel to catalog the collection before selling it and splitting the profits, it's double illegal. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe if you are like the guy in Little Rock, buying stuff on fri and selling on sat. Or the cops out in calif buying off roster stuff and flipping them. It states right there if you are in the business. Those guys mentioned are in the business. It also provides the following example as being "in the business of" selling firearms: Repetitively resells or offers for resale firearms— (i) Within 30 days after the person purchased the firearms; or (ii) Within one year after the person purchased the firearms if they are— (A) New, or like new in their original packaging; or (B) The same make and model, or variants thereof; "Repetitively" is open to their interpretation. Could be as little as two for all we know. None of that applies to me. I keep on doing what I’m doing. You've never bought a gun, shot it a few times and realized you didn't like it? You're now a dealer if you don't wait a year to sell it, or throw away the box. Lots of guys here are in the never sell a gun camp. I’ve won guns at matches and immediately listed them for sale. Can’t do that anymore. I still want to know what happens when a family inherits a gun collection. Keep or sell. Up to you. It would be pure profit if a person were to sell them. And if someone in the family uses excel to catalog the collection before selling it and splitting the profits, it's double illegal. Only safe thing to do is keep them forever of turn them in to the police |
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Thank god we elect republicans who are on our side and protect us from government overreach
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Quoted: This exactly. I don't know how anyone can work there and think they are doing anything but destroying the constitution and freedom View Quote Attached File |
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Don’t forget states can have their own rules too. California says no more than 50 guns in no more than 5 transactions.
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Quoted: By that definition, anyone that sells or trades in their vehicle for more than they paid needs to be a licensed car dealer. Anyone that sells their house for more than they paid for it years ago needs to be a licensed real estate agent, etc. Who decides what a firearm is worth over time? I guess if I want to sell a gun I no longer want I will self declare the value to me as $10,000 so that I will be selling at a major loss. View Quote For sale: AR-15 $1. Aluminum GI mag $450. Will not separate. |
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It's another step in the long game / war of attrition. The current gun owning generation keeps what they have since they can't sell it - the next who inherits it turns it all in to the government as we die off.
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Quoted: By that definition, anyone that sells or trades in their vehicle for more than they paid needs to be a licensed car dealer. Anyone that sells their house for more than they paid for it years ago needs to be a licensed real estate agent, etc. View Quote Comments like this miss the point. You're applying logic to something that logic is N/A to. These things the AFT and the rest of the government do that infringe on people's rights are NOT done because they are stupid, ignorant, or just because they somehow "don't get it". These things are done INTENTIONALLY AND WITH MALICE TO ENABLE THEM TO LOCK UP PERCEIVED POLITICAL OPPONENTS/THREATS TO THE ONGOING TYRANNICAL POWER GRAB. It's not SUPPOSED to make sense. It is SOLELY being done to fuck people over the regime doesn't like. |
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Quoted: Here’s something new. The ATF website used to say you could buy and resell to enhance your collection. Going to a gun show and seeing an undervalued gun, buying it and selling it for a profit an hour later to buy something you really wanted was expressly allowed. Now that purchase and resale is evidence of dealing without a license View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's nice when this site is unified against gun control. I wish it was consistent. I don’t believe it is. This shit is nothing new. I guarantee the guy in LR and what happened was a warning to other non licensed dealers. Maybe I’m wrong. Here’s something new. The ATF website used to say you could buy and resell to enhance your collection. Going to a gun show and seeing an undervalued gun, buying it and selling it for a profit an hour later to buy something you really wanted was expressly allowed. Now that purchase and resale is evidence of dealing without a license No I don't believe it was ever expressly allowed. Yes you could buy an occasionally sell to enhance your collection but there was never to my knowledge and explicit instruction that you could buy an undervalued gun and sell it immediately for a profit. It might not have been illegal necessarily, but I don't believe ATF has ever said that it was legal either. |
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The Safer Communities Acts needs to be repealed. There are so many hidden gems in there you don’t know what will come next. They are teaching how to red flag people, limiting private sales, more delays and denials than ever when it comes to running a NICS check.
This is just the tip being inserted slowly. Just wait, there will be so much more. |
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Quoted: I'm glad all the firearms I lost in the boating accident were entirely private sale. Can't help but think registration is next and they will absolutely be looking through FFL records to determine who to investigate for not registering. They'll probably need the scotua to flip to go that far but if it does, they will. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Yep. This rule, that they pretend is about background checks, is really intended to kill the secondary market and private party transfers. They want the guns to stay with the original owners because once they enter the secondary market they are too hard to trace. Plus they enjoy fucking gun owners I'm glad all the firearms I lost in the boating accident were entirely private sale. Can't help but think registration is next and they will absolutely be looking through FFL records to determine who to investigate for not registering. They'll probably need the scotua to flip to go that far but if it does, they will. National registration of all firearms is not happening anytime soon through Congress. Universal background checks is always a possibility but that would not force registration of all previous firearms. Just future ones. |
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What a bunch of bullshit, especially in light of the fact that the most guns in D.C. that were used in crime were traced back to the D.C. police department.
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Quoted: No. Not likely. You are still dealing the guns personally even if you are using an FFL to do a background check. If you make regular repetitious sales View Quote FIFY The new ruling says specifically that one doesn't need to "make a profit" in order to be deemed "in the business of buying/selling firearms". It says it over and over. Not sure why people here cannot understand that. |
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Quoted: Great question. It's been said that ATF wants all transactions to go through an FFL. If that's true would a person be in the clear if they always sell on consignment, or trade personal firearms through a dealer? View Quote They’d be getting what they want which is a defacto registry. They want firearm transfers logged. |
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Quoted: Part of it looks like "Even if you are selling at a loss, taking in any money means you are trying to make a profit and that means you are a business." View Quote Otherwise, become ungovernable. |
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BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business
BREAKING NEWS: ATF's New Rule Is LIVE & It Affects YOU! Engaged In The Business |
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Is this the standard 'goes into effect 30 days after posting' on the federal register?
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Quoted: Comments like this miss the point. You're applying logic to something that logic is N/A to. These things the AFT and the rest of the government do that infringe on people's rights are NOT done because they are stupid, ignorant, or just because they somehow "don't get it". These things are done INTENTIONALLY AND WITH MALICE TO ENABLE THEM TO LOCK UP PERCEIVED POLITICAL OPPONENTS/THREATS TO THE ONGOING TYRANNICAL POWER GRAB. It's not SUPPOSED to make sense. It is SOLELY being done to fuck people over the regime doesn't like. View Quote Yep |
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Be sure to stop by your nearest never Trumper thread to say thanks.
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Quoted: No I don't believe it was ever expressly allowed. Yes you could buy an occasionally sell to enhance your collection but there was never to my knowledge and explicit instruction that you could buy an undervalued gun and sell it immediately for a profit. It might not have been illegal necessarily, but I don't believe ATF has ever said that it was legal either. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's nice when this site is unified against gun control. I wish it was consistent. I don’t believe it is. This shit is nothing new. I guarantee the guy in LR and what happened was a warning to other non licensed dealers. Maybe I’m wrong. Here’s something new. The ATF website used to say you could buy and resell to enhance your collection. Going to a gun show and seeing an undervalued gun, buying it and selling it for a profit an hour later to buy something you really wanted was expressly allowed. Now that purchase and resale is evidence of dealing without a license No I don't believe it was ever expressly allowed. Yes you could buy an occasionally sell to enhance your collection but there was never to my knowledge and explicit instruction that you could buy an undervalued gun and sell it immediately for a profit. It might not have been illegal necessarily, but I don't believe ATF has ever said that it was legal either. There used to be an example to that effect on the FAQ on the ATF website |
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Quoted: What a bunch of bullshit, especially in light of the fact that the most guns in D.C. that were used in crime were traced back to the D.C. police department. View Quote Well they were the only FFL in the city. So of course all the successful traces are going to come back to that FFL. ETA: I think the Brady Campaign also had an FFL in DC. But did not actually sell guns with it. |
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Quoted: There used to be an example to that effect on the FAQ on the ATF website View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: It's nice when this site is unified against gun control. I wish it was consistent. I don’t believe it is. This shit is nothing new. I guarantee the guy in LR and what happened was a warning to other non licensed dealers. Maybe I’m wrong. Here’s something new. The ATF website used to say you could buy and resell to enhance your collection. Going to a gun show and seeing an undervalued gun, buying it and selling it for a profit an hour later to buy something you really wanted was expressly allowed. Now that purchase and resale is evidence of dealing without a license No I don't believe it was ever expressly allowed. Yes you could buy an occasionally sell to enhance your collection but there was never to my knowledge and explicit instruction that you could buy an undervalued gun and sell it immediately for a profit. It might not have been illegal necessarily, but I don't believe ATF has ever said that it was legal either. There used to be an example to that effect on the FAQ on the ATF website Interesting I've never seen that and I've looked at their website quite a bit over the years. |
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Rule vs. Law. How can the ATF just create shit on a whim. Just one big gay good idea fairy that shits on your face as you sleep.
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Quoted: Is this the standard 'goes into effect 30 days after posting' on the federal register? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Is this the standard 'goes into effect 30 days after posting' on the federal register? Yes https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/justice-department-publishes-new-rule-update-definition-engaged-business-firearms-dealer Rule Seeks to Implement Provisions of the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act and Provide Clarity on Who Must Obtain a License and Run Background Checks The Justice Department today announced it has submitted to the Federal Register the “Engaged in the Business” Final Rule, which makes clear the circumstances in which a person is “engaged in the business” of dealing in firearms and thus required to obtain a federal firearms license, in order to increase compliance with the federal background check requirement for firearm sales by federal firearms licensees. “Under this regulation, it will not matter if guns are sold on the internet, at a gun show, or at a brick-and-mortar store: if you sell guns predominantly to earn a profit, you must be licensed, and you must conduct background checks,” said Attorney General Merrick B. Garland. “This regulation is a historic step in the Justice Department’s fight against gun violence. It will save lives.” “The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act enhanced background checks and closed loopholes, including by redefining when a person is ‘engaged in the business’ of dealing in firearms. Today’s rule clarifying application of that definition will save lives by requiring all those in the business of selling guns to get a federal license and run background checks — thus keeping guns out of the hands of violent criminals,” said Deputy Attorney General Lisa Monaco. “I applaud the hard work of ATF in drafting this rule and reviewing the hundreds of thousands of public comments, which overwhelmingly favored the rule announced today. Because of that work, our communities will be safer.” “This is about protecting the lives of innocent, law-abiding Americans as well as the rule of law. There is a large and growing black market of guns that are being sold by people who are in the business of dealing and are doing it without a license; and therefore, they are not running background checks the way the law requires. And it is fueling violence,” said Director Steven Dettelbach of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF). “Today’s Final Rule is about ensuring compliance with an important area of the existing law where we all know, the data show, and we can clearly see that a whole group of folks are openly flouting that law. That leads to not just unfair but, in this case, dangerous consequences.” The Bipartisan Safer Communities Act (BSCA), enacted June 25, 2022, expanded the definition of engaging in the business of firearms dealing to cover all persons who devote time, attention, and labor to dealing in firearms as a regular course of trade or business to predominately earn a profit through the repetitive purchase and sale of firearms. On March 14, 2023, President Biden issued Executive Order 14092, which, among other things, directs the Attorney General to develop and implement a plan to clarify the definition of who is engaged in the business of dealing in firearms and thus required to obtain a federal firearms license. The Final Rule conforms the ATF regulations to the new BSCA definition and further clarifies the conduct that presumptively requires a license under that revised definition, among other things. Federally licensed firearms dealers are critical to federal, state, local, Tribal, and territorial law enforcement in our shared goal of promoting public safety. Licensees submit background checks on potential purchasers to the FBI’s National Instant Criminal Background Check System, which helps to keep firearms out of the hands of prohibited persons. Further, licensees keep records of sales transactions to help ensure that when a gun is used in a crime and recovered by law enforcement it can be traced back to the first retail purchaser; they help identify and prevent straw purchasers from buying firearms on behalf of prohibited persons and criminals; and they facilitate safe storage of firearms by providing child-safety locks with every transferred handgun and offer customers other secure gun storage options. Unlicensed dealing, however, undermines these public-safety features — which is why Congress has long prohibited engaging in the business of dealing in firearms without the required license. To increase compliance with the statutes Congress has enacted, the Final Rule identifies conduct that is presumed to require a federal firearms license. And, in addition to implementing the revised statutory definition discussed above, the Final Rule clarifies the circumstances in which a license is — or is not — required by, among other things, adding a definition of “personal firearms collection” to ensure that genuine hobbyists and collectors may enhance or liquidate their collections without fear of violating the law. The Final Rule also provides clarity as to what licensees must do with their inventory when they go out of business. The Final Rule goes into effect 30 days after the date of publication in the Federal Register. On Sept. 8, 2023, the Justice Department published a notice of proposed rulemaking, and during the 90-day open comment period, ATF received nearly 388,000 comments. The final rule, as submitted to the Federal Register, can be viewed here. |
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Quoted: They are going to say all Glocks are variants. So selling a Glock 19, 29 & 21 will be the same as selling three 19s View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: It also provides the following example as being "in the business of" selling firearms: "Repetitively" is open to their interpretation. Could be as little as two for all we know. They are going to say all Glocks are variants. So selling a Glock 19, 29 & 21 will be the same as selling three 19s I wouldn't be surprised if they say all handguns are variants of handguns. |
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Quoted: Quoted: I still want to know what happens when a family inherits a gun collection. What gun collection? The one the kids want to sell because they have no interest in guns, or because the dad was a piece of shit, or because they need a home instead of $20k worth of over unders and bolt action rifles. |
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Quoted: Aside from the Armslist sellers, does this really affect someone who occasionally sells a longarm from time to time (year after year)? I keep seeing 3+ sales blah blah..... View Quote No. You need to be repetitively selling guns less than 30days after you purchased them or repetitively selling guns within a year of purchasing them that are in as new condition or are all similar. If you purchased them over a year ago then you can sell as many as you want. That isn't the shitty part of the changes. |
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Quoted: So these cunts recruited all the New Jersey catladies to comment in support, so they could write this in the news stories. View Quote Probably the Brady anti gun group mass filing comments funded by congress spending bills that have anti-gun spending in them. Didn't the most recent one have like $25 million for it? |
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Quoted: Easy to say until your door is getting kicked in at 0500 with weapons pointed at you. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Easy to say until your door is getting kicked in at 0500 with weapons pointed at you. Took long enough for someone to point out. Attached File |
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Quoted: In other words, the BATF agent makes a judgement call that may not have any connection to the rule, but is instead just based on the "totality of the circumstances" and you can be charged on that agent's opinion alone. View Quote They're adding similar language to all of their new changes, presumably acknowledging that they suck at this so need to give themselves unlimited room to ignore the rules that they wrote in case they turn out to be a massive fuckup riddled with loopholes and exploits. |
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Quoted: Nope. Fuck gun control. Even when your guy does it. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Be sure to stop by your nearest never Trumper thread to say thanks. Nope. Fuck gun control. Even when your guy does it. There you have it folks. This is why we never win. |
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FATF & PRESIDENT POTATO, I'm done paying any attention to any infringement.
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This is not shocking. Practically every regulatory agency does everything they can to extend their power to every possible transaction by torturing logic, law, and precedent to whatever extent they can to justify expansion of their power.
The ATF saying that any disposition of personal property means you are now federally regulated is a typical federal overreach and it will have to be challenged in court with decisive victories to stop. |
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Quoted: No. You need to be repetitively selling guns less than 30days after you purchased them or repetitively selling guns within a year of purchasing them that are in as new condition or are all similar. If you purchased them over a year ago then you can sell as many as you want. View Quote Unless they are the same model or variant. Selling a Glock 19 in 2024, a Glock 20 in 2026 and a Glock 17 in 2027 would be repetitive sales of the same model or variant there of, and require you have a FFL. Or you keep paper records of how much you paid for your guns. Or you list more than one in an online marketplace |
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Think of the fun they can have with the conspiracy (the feds favorite catch all) element. You save firearms packaging or manuals = conspiracy. You keep a list of what you have and what you paid = conspiracy. You own more than one of the same kind = conspiracy.
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Quoted: They want the only option left to be destruction. A defacto ban. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: I still want to know what happens when a family inherits a gun collection. They want the only option left to be destruction. A defacto ban. "Inheriting" doesn't have any restrictions. You can liquidate Inherited firearms ( page 462). However, If you start going to all the gun show and have a table, start trading, make listings on social media sites, they may look at you closer as you being "engaged in business". |
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Quoted: Congress are the dumbasses that gave the DOJ rule making privileges through their agencies… View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Quoted: Quoted: Why bother even having a Congress if .gov agencies and the potato potus simply make up whatever laws they want? Congress are the dumbasses that gave the DOJ rule making privileges through their agencies… Did they give it to them? Or just fail to take it away... I thought Scotus gave it to them with Chevron. |
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