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AR15.COM
11/5/2007 1:37:14 PM EDT
Those of you who ever did any self-defence shooting may have heard of the 'reaction gap' nominally 21', claimed as being the distance at or within which you cannot react quickly enough to a charging man intent on doing you harm. Picture the scene, a training establishment somewhere in England.....

Students, armed with Taser and simunition Glock (breech safe) , are undergoing Taser training (max effective range 21', ideal range 15'), practising options on what to do if Taser misses/fails..

Instructor: (Who we will call Ted, 'cos that's his name)..yes there is no way you can react in time inside that distance...

Student: (Who we will call Student)..I reckon I could you know..

Ted: Absoloutely not..

Student: I appreciate what you're saying but I think for a frontal charge I could do it..

Ted: Okay we'l try it. I'll charge you with a knife and I'll prove you do not have time to react if the Taser fails..

Student: Do you think you should put some body armour on?

Ted: No, won't need it, you won't even get your gun out..

Student: I'd feel happier if you put armour on..

Ted: No, come on, get on with it. You ready?

Student : Ready

Ted: Aaaaaarghh screams Ted rushing forward in his best knife-wielding maniac impression..

Student: Says nothing, dumps 'faulty' Taser, click/clack bang!

Ted: ...aaarghhh......OWWWWWWWWWW! Sh*t, F+@k, and clutches at his chest squealing like a girl....

It may only be a paint round but it's still travelling at @400fps..

Student: You know Ted, I reckon I could get a head shot off, do you want to go again?


Remember readers, these exercises are carried out by 'hily trayned professhnulls' Do NOT try this at home...
11/5/2007 3:02:33 PM EDT
[#1]
Couple of flaws.

No body armor =DUMB

Shooter knew ahead of time about the drill.

If the attack was spontaneous,  there might have been a different outcome.   OODA loop comes into play.
JMHO.
11/5/2007 4:50:38 PM EDT
[#2]
Even if the student could react just as quickly without a warning, I'm not going to stake my well-being on this.  Nor would I call this myth "busted".

ETA: Nice to see an instructor get what's coming to him every now and then though.
11/5/2007 6:01:17 PM EDT
[#3]

Quoted:
Couple of flaws.

No body armor =DUMB

Shooter knew ahead of time about the drill.

If the attack was spontaneous,  there might have been a different outcome.   OODA loop comes into play.
JMHO.


agreed...when you know it's coming you're in code red awareness level, ready and waiting for it.  it would have been different if the student was unaware of the attack in the first place.
11/5/2007 11:30:24 PM EDT
[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Couple of flaws.

No body armor =DUMB

Shooter knew ahead of time about the drill.

If the attack was spontaneous,  there might have been a different outcome.   OODA loop comes into play.
JMHO.


agreed...when you know it's coming you're in code red awareness level, ready and waiting for it.  it would have been different if the student was unaware of the attack in the first place.


and who's to say that one shot would have stopped the attack?
11/6/2007 1:02:21 AM EDT
[#5]
And who is to say the kid has any speed at all ........

I am sure an olympic sprinter could do it in half the time my fat ass could.  I am sure the stastic is geared tword the faster end of the human spectrum. Never know when an olympic sprinter is going to try and shank your ass.  
11/6/2007 1:11:19 AM EDT
[#6]
a single out lier does not remove the legitimacy of a normal distribution.
11/6/2007 1:31:55 AM EDT
[#7]
Sounds like your instructor needs to go to some updated training.  The 21 foot rule is a myth.  It was originally called the "Tueller Drill" and was not meant to be a "rule" of any kind.

Print it out and give it to him.

A better explanation here.

The Tueller Drill Misinterpreted
11/6/2007 4:21:03 AM EDT
[#8]
Gentlemen, I realise there are a number of variables in play here, I just thought it might amuse you..........
11/6/2007 5:52:13 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:
Couple of flaws.

No body armor =DUMB

Shooter knew ahead of time about the drill.

If the attack was spontaneous,  there might have been a different outcome.   OODA loop comes into play.
JMHO.



One of your flaws isn't a flaw. In the original tests that developed the 21 foot rule, the defender knew of the imminent attack. We watched the videos in the academy.

Still, it's more of a guideline than a hard and fast rule - and I've yet to have the luxury in policework to deal with many people who are 21 feet or more away...
11/6/2007 10:45:53 AM EDT
[#10]
I always took it as the maximum distance a perp could be and still successfully stab you.
11/6/2007 10:55:50 AM EDT
[#11]
21 foot rule,... not the 21 foot law.

Like someone else said. The student needed to be in a scenario where he would not know that he was going to be charged.
11/6/2007 11:14:30 AM EDT
[#12]

Quoted:
Gentlemen, I realise there are a number of variables in play here, I just thought it might amuse you..........


I figured that.    

It is funny when someone says here hold my beer pint and watch this.
11/6/2007 2:54:40 PM EDT
[#13]
I volunteered as the "agressor" for several charges during a tactical HG class recently. One guy very leisurely drew and fired at me three times. He looked like he could have been holding a cup of coffee while he did it.

Yes, I did wear the new lightweight armor.

Yes, I still wound up with a "red badge of courage"

A little more effective is having the Agg at a right angle, and having the shooter have to detect the motion through peripheral vision, rather than the "telegraph" that accompanies a frontal charge.
11/7/2007 9:51:35 AM EDT
[#14]
The 21 foot rule states you can't deliver rounds/react fast enough to do so, that will stop the attacker before you get cut.  

That is no myth.
11/10/2007 3:31:22 PM EDT
[#15]
I'll tell you what, a screaming knife armed whaco comes running at me, f@ck the taser the guys catching a .40 cal round, PERIOD.
11/10/2007 6:59:31 PM EDT
[#16]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Couple of flaws.

No body armor =DUMB

Shooter knew ahead of time about the drill.

If the attack was spontaneous,  there might have been a different outcome.   OODA loop comes into play.
JMHO.


agreed...when you know it's coming you're in code red awareness level, ready and waiting for it.  it would have been different if the student was unaware of the attack in the first place.


and who's to say that one shot would have stopped the attack?


That's my take on it.  I never understood the 21 foot rule to mean that you couldn't get a shot off before the guy was up on you (although, with no warning, I doubt that many people could).   The bigger problem is that the person you shoot has to be immediately and totally disabled in like half a second to keep him from going ahead and stabbing you.

And, without a lucky shot to the spine or brain stem, that isn't likely to happen (and my old partner, returned fire on a perp, after he was shot in the head and had received an injury that resulted in his hospitalization for over a month).

Getting stabbed numerous times by a guy you have just shot, who dies from your shots, ten minutes after he has stabbed you, is surviving the fight, not winning it.
11/12/2007 9:58:01 AM EDT
[#17]
Why in heavens name would you participate in shooting someone with a simunition round who wasnt wearing protective equipment!?!     This is the kind of foolish behavior that leads to training deaths!      Its not just stupid that the instructor agreed, but its incredibly stupid that you would intentionally fire at another individual without protective equipment!    What makes it worse, is that it was all done to prove what sounds like a pissing contest.            
11/12/2007 5:54:34 PM EDT
[#18]
Folks, the OP stated that the instructor did not want to put BODY armor on.  That is not required equipment for simunition training.  As long as he was wearing full head gear with face and throat protection along with groin protection he was ok.
11/14/2007 9:45:25 AM EDT
[#19]

Quoted:
I'll tell you what, a screaming knife armed whaco comes running at me, f@ck the taser the guys catching a .45 cal round, PERIOD.


Bingo!