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Originally Posted By sirensong:
if you're serious, you're in luck--there are excellent options in austin. perhaps the most famous sword school in japanese history is yagyu shinkage ryu, which was the school that most of the shoguns studied (itto ryu being the other). austin is one of the only cities outside of japan with a legitimate YSR dojo. there's also araki ryu, which is renowned in japan as the supreme school of how to fight dirty. the first lesson in araki ryu is how to escape from being forced to commit seppuku...by killing everyone around you. if you want direct competition with a modern art, the austin kendo doshikai is taught by a renowned--though extremely strict--teacher. and if you're still interested in a couple of years, i may be of sufficient rank to begin teaching eishin ryu iaido. i lead a study group in north austin right now (albeit with only 1 other student), but my teacher in DFW has proposed a timeline for starting my own dojo. all i have to do is practice harder, practice more, and stop sucking. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By sirensong:
Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By sirensong: IM me your location, and there's a decent chance i can find you a legitimate school of the japanese sword in your vicinity. and if you're still interested in a couple of years, i may be of sufficient rank to begin teaching eishin ryu iaido. i lead a study group in north austin right now (albeit with only 1 other student), but my teacher in DFW has proposed a timeline for starting my own dojo. all i have to do is practice harder, practice more, and stop sucking. |
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This thread is very interesting. I love the threads where someone has a blade and it gets posted and we get to figure out what it is. Hint hint to all the people referencing family owned stuff.
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I am surprised Japan lets them leave the country
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Saying Franco saved Spain from commies is like saying suck starting a shotgun cures Ebola. Technically true....
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By cpl_fisher:
I am surprised Japan lets them leave the country View Quote One really interesting aspect of submitting your sword to an official NBTHK shinsa for paperwork is that, by submitting your sword for evaluation, you agree that they can borrow the sword as long as they want, IF it turns out to be a super-important blade. So if that turns out to be the case, then the NBTHK may choose to display your sword in their museum for an unspecified amount of time. I am honestly not sure what would happen if someone outside Japan sent a sword to a shinsa, and it was rated as a National Treasure. I am sure it has never happened. ETA: The only time I sent a sword to a shinsa in Japan, it was rejected for having a fatal flaw. |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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Thanks DK...great thread! It's a good thing I've been off of work for the last 4 months, or I'd probably end up spending a bunch of money here. Just the same, I'll subscribe and revisit when I'm not so broke.
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q3131: I can enjoy necrobeastialexhibitionism as much as the next guy, but homonecrobestailexhibitionism is just plain sick.
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DK,
Why are some Kogai/Kozuka Ana plugged with material? Sometimes none plugged, sometimes one, sometimes both? Is a "missing" plug a bad attribute? Attached File |
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"Here we are having a nice discussion on swords and the fucking pikemen gotta shit all over the place." - Silverbulletz06
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Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
DK, Why are some Kogai/Kozuka Ana plugged with material? Sometimes none plugged, sometimes one, sometimes both? Is a "missing" plug a bad attribute? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/45309/2EA05AB1-4BC4-4DBF-A03E-EC437172979F_jpeg-999278.JPG View Quote |
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
DK, Why are some Kogai/Kozuka Ana plugged with material? Sometimes none plugged, sometimes one, sometimes both? Is a "missing" plug a bad attribute? https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/45309/2EA05AB1-4BC4-4DBF-A03E-EC437172979F_jpeg-999278.JPG View Quote I don't think it's necessarily considered a bad attribute, BUT I also do not know that much about tsuba. |
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Originally Posted By Johnny_Reno:
Belt sander or orbital? View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes |
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Part of the reason I started this thread is very much to illustrate how it is POSSIBLE to get real historic Japanese blades without totally breaking the bank. I have already posted a couple of examples of really lucky buys on my part, and I wanted to provide another two illustrations. The first one is the sword pictured below. Blade: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/07604-1-999257.jpg Furniture: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/07604koshirae-999258.jpg This is a Wakizashi (short sword) from the Kanei period (around 1628) of the early Shinto Era. The sword is in excellent polish, and has a very active hamon (temper pattern on the blade). It has a cutting edge of 39 cm, has one minor flaw (ware kizu) and is in ishimeji koshirae (sheaths and handles). It also has a new shirasaya (resting sheath), indicating that it was recently polished. This sword has official NBTHK papers, identifying the smith as Masahiro, who was the grandson and adopted son of Tadayoshi (the founder of the Hizen school), and was granted the title of Kawachi Daijo. Masahiro from Hizen is very well-known and is included in Fujishiro’s ranking of the better sword smiths of the Koto, Shinto and Shin-shinto eras, and is ranked Jo-Saku – and his blades have been judged “Wazamono” (very sharp) by the Kaiho Kenjaku. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/Masahiro-999287.jpg Hizen became a center of sword making in the “new” Shinto period of relative peace in Japan, which meant that smiths did not have produce huge numbers of swords (for the constant warring of the earlier period), and could put more care and attention into the making of individual swords. Hizen had a reputation for quality and sharpness, and this sword is a great example of a Hizen blade, as well as a typical Masahiro blade – with a beautiful hamon. So Masahiro was being groomed to be the second Tadayoshi and head of the Hizen school, because Tadayoshi did not have any children of his own. As such, he was personally trained by the First Tadayoshi. But, then Tadayoshi's wife died, and he had a son with his second wife - who eventually became the Second Tadayoshi and head of the Hizen school. Masahiro is considered one of the greatest smiths of the Hizen school, but obviously never became the head of the school. Still, as a very famous smith of a prestigious Shinto school, Masahiro blades can get VERY expensive. Personally, I love this blade because of the absolutely beautiful hamon. So, how expensive was it? NORMALLY, this kind of blade would be pretty expensive - probably something like $7-8k, as a guess. However, if you look closely at the blade (and I have highlighted it below in two pictures), there is a small flaw (called a ware) in the blade. It is not considered a serious flaw at all (most blades will have ware, often multiples), and is just a surface cosmetic issue - however, it means that the blade is not perfect. It can be difficult to see, and most laypeople looking at the blade would never notice it, but obviously hard-core collectors would notice it. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/blade-999259.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/P9090614_JPG-999262.jpg As a result, I purchased this blade in 2008 for $3250 - which is think is a spectacular deal, from some a well-known smith, and with really nice furniture. View Quote |
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By DamascusKnifemaker: A cold shut incurred during the forging process and exposed during polishing? View Quote There are a lot of different types of flaws possible on japanese blades. Here are a couple of websites that explain them well: https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/kizu.htm http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/flaws.html Interestingly, the next blade I wanted to discuss has a fukure, which is why I was able to buy it at a very affordable price. |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof: I don't know what all your fancy technical talk means - but I think what you are talking about would be called a "Fukure" flaw, and is a bit more serious - and uglier - than a "ware" flaw (but still not fatal). The "ware" flaw is a slight opening between two layers, that i guess weren't fully fused during the forging process. There are a lot of different types of flaws possible on japanese blades. Here are a couple of websites that explain them well: https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/kizu.htm http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/flaws.html Interestingly, the next blade I wanted to discuss has a fukure, which is why I was able to buy it at a very affordable price. View Quote |
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I'm Conservative because not everyone can be on welfare.
"How do you keep a bunch of idiots in suspense? I'll tell you once I get back from an orgy." dport |
PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By DamascusKnifemaker:
You quoted before I could edit. In my world a cold shut is an area between layers that failed to weld. They can be huge gaps that can't be fixed, very small and possibly ground or polished out or anywhere in between. It looks like a cosmetic cold shut in the picture, something that is visible but won't affect performance of the blade. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By DamascusKnifemaker:
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: I don't know what all your fancy technical talk means - but I think what you are talking about would be called a "Fukure" flaw, and is a bit more serious - and uglier - than a "ware" flaw (but still not fatal). The "ware" flaw is a slight opening between two layers, that i guess weren't fully fused during the forging process. There are a lot of different types of flaws possible on japanese blades. Here are a couple of websites that explain them well: https://www.japaneseswordindex.com/kizu.htm http://www.ksky.ne.jp/~sumie99/flaws.html Interestingly, the next blade I wanted to discuss has a fukure, which is why I was able to buy it at a very affordable price. But not me - the cheapskate collector. |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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Hmm I never even thought I wanted a Japanese sword but now after reading this , I guess I kinda do want one .
DK thanks for doing this. It's the most interesting thread here in a while. |
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Very cool thread, keep posting DK
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If wishes were horses, we would all be eating steak..... |
OP: How do you store your paperwork? I’d think that the value of the swords is protected by the accompanying documents. If you want your progeny to have these valuable treasures, what’s the best way to preserve the papers?
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By SlimBlundt:
OP: How do you store your paperwork? I’d think that the value of the swords is protected by the accompanying documents. If you want your progeny to have these valuable treasures, what’s the best way to preserve the papers? View Quote I do think that the NBTHK can issue new papers, if the old ones are lost - but I am not 100% sure. |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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Very interesting stuff.
Thanks for sharing Op. |
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I’ve been wanting to get a legit naginata or yari for a while. There’s so little good info out there that I’ve been hesitant to drop a bunch of money to possibly get ripped off. Much appreciated OP.
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By RichHead:
I’ve been wanting to get a legit naginata or yari for a while. There’s so little good info out there that I’ve been hesitant to drop a bunch of money to possibly get ripped off. Much appreciated OP. View Quote The only problem with naginata and yari is that the staff have often been cut down, and if they have not, shipping the full-length staff from Japan is tricky. |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Some of the dealers I posted will occasionally have them in their inventory. Good luck! The only problem with naginata and yari is that the staff have often been cut down, and if they have not, shipping the full-length staff from Japan is tricky. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By RichHead:
I've been wanting to get a legit naginata or yari for a while. There's so little good info out there that I've been hesitant to drop a bunch of money to possibly get ripped off. Much appreciated OP. The only problem with naginata and yari is that the staff have often been cut down, and if they have not, shipping the full-length staff from Japan is tricky. FedEx does amazing things. They will also register you as an importer when it hits customs during your first import. So the answer to shipping costs costs is obvious. Only buy naginatas and Yaris in pairs! Attached File |
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"Here we are having a nice discussion on swords and the fucking pikemen gotta shit all over the place." - Silverbulletz06
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
I can't speak to shipping from Japan, but I just had a 9' wooden crate with two polearms shipped in from Italy for $330. FedEx does amazing things. They will also register you as an importer when it hits customs during your first import. So the answer to shipping costs costs is obvious. Only buy naginatas and Yaris in pairs! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/45309/IMG_3578_JPG-999674.JPG View Quote The problem is that FedEx will not ship swords from Japan (since about 2014 or so). I am not 100% sure if that extends to Naginata, Nagimaki and Yari, but it probably does. |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/70F8298D-5587-4E8B-B188-D2F9E8D1FEE7-999249.jpg https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/small_JPG-999246.jpg Here's a picture from the dealer: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/1715/kabuto-999245.jpg View Quote |
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KF7WNX If you want a picture of the future, imagine Clownshoes stomping on a human face—for ever.
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Nice! The problem is that FedEx will not ship swords from Japan (since about 2014 or so). I am not 100% sure if that extends to Naginata, Nagimaki and Yari, but it probably does. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
I can't speak to shipping from Japan, but I just had a 9' wooden crate with two polearms shipped in from Italy for $330. FedEx does amazing things. They will also register you as an importer when it hits customs during your first import. So the answer to shipping costs costs is obvious. Only buy naginatas and Yaris in pairs! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/45309/IMG_3578_JPG-999674.JPG The problem is that FedEx will not ship swords from Japan (since about 2014 or so). I am not 100% sure if that extends to Naginata, Nagimaki and Yari, but it probably does. Whatever the reason, it's a shame. FedEx was great for my imports. |
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"Here we are having a nice discussion on swords and the fucking pikemen gotta shit all over the place." - Silverbulletz06
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I will share with the hive / ask @DK-Prof what he thinks of these. They were my fathers. I don’t know much about them. My father was a collector of all things. His MO was to study some subject then find/buy some exceptional item or find a under valued item and pounce. These two swords have what appears to be very old papers with them.
Have a look: Noobs Sword https://imgur.com/gallery/On1KeHi?s=sms |
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Originally Posted By AR4U:
Signature is relevant. Do all arfocommers have a bunch of swords in a golf bag, a bundle of pole arms leaning in the corner and nods/thermal sitting on top of their pile of transferable MGs? I'm beginning to feel inadequate. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By AR4U:
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
I have a Tsuba framed that my uncle acquired in the 1980s but I think it's just a repro of a famous one. The elaborate ones are certainly beautiful. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/45309/81AB7B72-3F43-4BF9-95D6-4C7080FC51B4_jpeg-999006.JPG I'd be interested in getting a nice katana IF I had a spot to appropriately display it, which I don't at the moment. I'm also hesitant to dive into something that takes that much knowledge and research. Sure, I could just plop $4k down on something with papers, but if I can't talk about or describe it intelligently, I don't see the point. Sort of embarrassing not to know the ins and outs. I can ramble for hours about the weapons I normally collect. I already got six new polearms this year. Maybe them Japanese fellahs can help me with a polish! https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/45309/8659B0B6-8F81-4E25-B172-4AD163100B91_jpeg-999008.JPG Do all arfocommers have a bunch of swords in a golf bag, a bundle of pole arms leaning in the corner and nods/thermal sitting on top of their pile of transferable MGs? I'm beginning to feel inadequate. Kharn |
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My apologies on an ignorant question, but am curious: when a smith set out to make a katana, wakizahi, or tanto was it primarily a very singular activity, and each considered a stand alone piece, or was it common to commission a smith for a “set”?
And secondly, were there swordsmiths who specialized in only specific lengths of sword, such as only the smaller wakizahi or tantos? |
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Any recommendations of swordsmith's who can make a good one in Japan?
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Sigh
Subscribed. |
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Kick Ass.
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Originally Posted By Bullwhip2006:
My apologies on an ignorant question, but am curious: when a smith set out to make a katana, wakizahi, or tanto was it primarily a very singular activity, and each considered a stand alone piece, or was it common to commission a smith for a "set"? And secondly, were there swordsmiths who specialized in only specific lengths of sword, such as only the smaller wakizahi or tantos? View Quote |
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"During the second 100 days, we will design, build and open a library dedicated to my first 100 days." -Barack Obama, May 9 2009
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Originally Posted By Noob_Thoughts:
I will share with the hive / ask @DK-Prof what he thinks of these. They were my fathers. I don't know much about them. My father was a collector of all things. His MO was to study some subject then find/buy some exceptional item or find a under valued item and pounce. These two swords have what appears to be very old papers with them. Have a look: Noobs Sword https://imgur.com/gallery/On1KeHi?s=sms View Quote Color of paper means a lot and I THiNk they are the normal grade. One of the pages may be a Japanese registration to own? |
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"Here we are having a nice discussion on swords and the fucking pikemen gotta shit all over the place." - Silverbulletz06
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I really want to learn about the people that made the swords. How did this art come to be? How was it standardized? When did Japan really learn about working with Iron and then perfecting Steel?
I’m sure there was a lot of interesting transitions. I know Indian regions produced amazing near stainless steels when Europeans were still killing with clubs. Was there influence? Was Japan’s work indigenous or did it occur before they became a closed country? Fascinating |
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Originally Posted By disorientedpilot:
I really want to learn about the people that made the swords. How did this art come to be? How was it standardized? When did Japan really learn about working with Iron and then perfecting Steel? I'm sure there was a lot of interesting transitions. I know Indian regions produced amazing near stainless steels when Europeans were still killing with clubs. Was there influence? Was Japan's work indigenous or did it occur before they became a closed country? Fascinating View Quote Japanese steel is impressive and I want to dig into when and how that came about. I really don't want to dig too much because I do have a habit of impulsively spending $3-10k when I get the mood... and I already had that mood this year. |
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"Here we are having a nice discussion on swords and the fucking pikemen gotta shit all over the place." - Silverbulletz06
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Tsmahagane is what they're made of, and is made in a plain brick and clay tower kiln/ smelter over a couple of days. Oxygen is introduced by a pipe bellows, and the other ingredients are minerals and charcoal. Lots and lots of charcoal, pieces of about 1" diameter, intriduced at a trickle over time. The charcoal is almost the diameter of a... nut.
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Kick Ass.
Take Names. Repeat As Necessary. |
Originally Posted By Kingpin38506:
YSR is the shit. Especially if you want to learn a more historical art. View Quote and Legion Etranger folks love your avatar, but it's probably from Magnum, PI, right? I am but a novice in kenjitsu, but I would very much like to fight with honor, yet unconventionaly. I use a lot of Filipino escrima/Arnis with stick and bare hands, but a sword is what is made for. @DK_prof, how much to get a non-collectible but high quality, and very useful katana? Throw in another 1K USD for a qwakizashi and FUNCTIONAL furniture? |
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Kick Ass.
Take Names. Repeat As Necessary. |
Originally Posted By BUCC_Guy:
This bothers me also. I've been researching iron smelting for fun and the sheer volume of materials needed for basic iron is impressive, and the leap to high quality folded metals or crucible steel is another big jump (fun fact, there's other folded metals aside from iron/steel). We know the Vikings did it successfully but not in large quantities. Non-Viking European 11th to 16th century iron and steel wasn't all that impressive judging by extant examples (many of which show lots of delamination even in controlled environments). Japanese steel is impressive and I want to dig into when and how that came about. I really don't want to dig too much because I do have a habit of impulsively spending $3-10k when I get the mood... and I already had that mood this year. View Quote |
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By Noob_Thoughts:
I will share with the hive / ask @DK-Prof what he thinks of these. They were my fathers. I don’t know much about them. My father was a collector of all things. His MO was to study some subject then find/buy some exceptional item or find a under valued item and pounce. These two swords have what appears to be very old papers with them. Have a look: Noobs Sword https://imgur.com/gallery/On1KeHi?s=sms View Quote Those are definitely two very nice blades, in beautiful condition - and it seems like your father definitely studied to the extent of buying the relevant sword books to be able to verify signatures himself! That's pretty hard-core. I believe the paperwork is NTHK, but I cannot read them, so I cannot comment on the level of paperwork. Definitely important blades, though. I can look up the two smiths he noted, but it'll be a bit later since I have to go somewhere right now. |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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@kpel308
Quality traditionally-forged katanas start at like $250 or $300 according to the research I did. When I say quality I mean it can withstand being used. I paid $350 for mine. What I got was a real hamon, super basic but functional furniture, and enough of a polish to show the hamon but not enough that the entire blade is razor sharp; only the ~top third of the blade. I'm ok with that bc I cut stuff with it all the time and don't have to cry when fruit juice stains the blade. I know that Bugei makes swords specifically for people who compete in modern cutting competitions and they run $1000-$3000 when I was looking into it 3 years ago. None of the swords in your price range are going to be made in Japan though. |
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Originally Posted By kpel308:
Tsmahagane is what they're made of, and is made in a plain brick and clay tower kiln/ smelter over a couple of days. Oxygen is introduced by a pipe bellows, and the other ingredients are minerals and charcoal. Lots and lots of charcoal, pieces of about 1" diameter, intriduced at a trickle over time. The charcoal is almost the diameter of a... nut. View Quote Forging a Katana ( Japanese Samurai Sword ) |
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Brought to you by Carl's Jr.
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Originally Posted By DedoBOT:
Damascus, Toledo , Sollingen ... ? View Quote The Secrets of Wootz Damascus Steel |
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Brought to you by Carl's Jr.
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Another tamahagane video:
Producing Tamahagane Steel |
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Kick Ass.
Take Names. Repeat As Necessary. |
Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Really highly ranked swords can be classified as National Treasures, and are not allowed to leave the country. One really interesting aspect of submitting your sword to an official NBTHK shinsa for paperwork is that, by submitting your sword for evaluation, you agree that they can borrow the sword as long as they want, IF it turns out to be a super-important blade. So if that turns out to be the case, then the NBTHK may choose to display your sword in their museum for an unspecified amount of time. I am honestly not sure what would happen if someone outside Japan sent a sword to a shinsa, and it was rated as a National Treasure. I am sure it has never happened. ETA: The only time I sent a sword to a shinsa in Japan, it was rejected for having a fatal flaw. View Quote |
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PsychoPolitical Master & King of the PureSkins(TM)
VA, USA
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Originally Posted By spyderboy03: I was going to ask if you ever sent a sword to Japan for polish and papers, but this answers that! I should look into this for mine. I am slightly worried about some of the rust/pitting on it and if they would be able to do much with it. View Quote |
... this isn’t a democracy, it’s a cheerocracy.
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Chemically speaking, Japanese Tamahagane steel is very similar to SAE 1095 cold rolled steel. Pretty close to pure iron plus a carbon content around 0.7 percent.
But its forged, folded, and multi-part construction, when WELL made, gives it superior properties to 1095 bar stock steel. A Japanese blade is usually made with a harder core steel with a softer, more ductile jacket securely forged around it, giving a combination of edge hardness and toughness that 1095 bar stock can't match. |
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Originally Posted By DK-Prof: Very cool. Those are definitely two very nice blades, in beautiful condition - and it seems like your father definitely studied to the extent of buying the relevant sword books to be able to verify signatures himself! That's pretty hard-core. I believe the paperwork is NTHK, but I cannot read them, so I cannot comment on the level of paperwork. Definitely important blades, though. I can look up the two smiths he noted, but it'll be a bit later since I have to go somewhere right now. View Quote |
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Originally Posted By 0331_usmc: That appears to be Kanteisho or " Important work" papers from NTHK. The red stamps are the appraisers seals, so 5 appraisers on that particular origami. I can't read the smith, but the papers definitely confirm the signature. The other origami I'm not sure about. Maybe an old Fujishiro rating paper? Nice swords for sure. View Quote |
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