Posted: 10/31/2008 7:48:31 AM EDT
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Analysis: Army seeks to replace M4 and M16
The vast majority of soldiers –– 92 percent in a recent survey –– say they are content with the M4, a carbine, essentially a shorter version of the M16 rifle. Its truncated barrel provides greater maneuverability in close quarters combat such as the urban environments soldiers face today in places like Baghdad, and the smaller round means spare ammunition is smaller and lighter. So why the need to change it? by Adam Verwymeren Washington (UPI) Oct 30, 2008 Since the Vietnam War, soldiers have fought with the M16 rifle and its little brother the M4 as their main weapon, but that may change soon as the Army steps up its search for a replacement. And it says it is open to replacing it with a higher caliber weapon, highlighting long-standing criticism of the existing 5.56mm round. In August, the Army posted a "Request For Information" –– a procurement document that asks the industry what it can offer –– on a possible successor to the M4, manufactured by West Hartford, Conn.-based Colt Defense LLC. The military has looked at alternatives in the past, and some elite Special Forces units have already retired the M4 in favor of newer, higher-caliber weapons. On Nov. 13, the Army will hold an industry day to examine the full range of state-of-the-art weapons on the market today. The event also will allow contractors to "more freely address the questions that were posed in the request for information," said Richard Audette, deputy project manager for PEO Soldier Weapons, the unit of the Army responsible for weapons procurement. At Fort Benning, Ga., the U.S. Army Infantry School is drafting a new set of requirements, expected to be published in May or June, which will spell out what the branch is looking for in a new carbine. After the arms industry has a better idea what the Army wants, companies will be able to start pitching their weapons in an open competition, tentatively scheduled to begin next summer. The Request For Information is also notable because, for the first time, the Army says it is open to any caliber of weapon, greatly expanding the number of guns available for competition. The M16 and M4 use the 5.56mm round, which is smaller and, some complain, has less stopping power than the 7.62mm round used by weapons such as the AK-47. Though open to the possibility of a new caliber weapon, officials at PEO Soldier said that a change from the 5.56mm round would have to demonstrate a "revolutionary operational benefit." The Infantry School's requirement will nail down exactly what a revolutionary benefit means, but Audette said the military produces a billion rounds of 5.56mm ammunition a year, so the benefit would have to be great enough to offset the cost of changing such a huge level of production. The Army won't release the names of companies who plan to attend the industry day, but representatives from Colt, Barrett, Heckler Koch and FN-Herstel have all said they will take part. The sheer size of the Army's purchasing power makes any potential change to its standard firearm a big deal. The service purchases more than 100,000 M4s a year at a cost of $178 million, and has 400,000 in service. The vast majority of soldiers –– 92 percent in a recent survey –– say they are content with the M4, a carbine, essentially a shorter version of the M16 rifle. Its truncated barrel provides greater maneuverability in close quarters combat such as the urban environments soldiers face today in places like Baghdad, and the smaller round means spare ammunition is smaller and lighter. So why the need to change it? The weapon, in use for more than 40 years, has a number of problems, which are addressed by newer guns. The M4 tends to jam at a much higher rate than newer weapons –– in a 2007 dust test, the weapon jammed at four to seven times the rate of the competition. Colt, manufacturer of the M4, says if the weapons are meticulously maintained and cleaned on a regular basis, jams can be kept to a minimum. However, many of the new firearms operating systems require less maintenance to achieve the same effect. The new requirements will offer a full list of the M4's shortcomings, but right now the Army unit PEO Soldier is looking for increased accuracy and increased reliability as key points to address. Complicating things for Colt, the technical package for the M4 becomes government property, meaning the Army can license another gunmaker to produce the weapon for less, though the military may end up renegotiating with Colt. Since it will take at least two to three years to start buying replacements for the M4 and a decade before the weapon is phased out, the fate of the M4 contract remains an important point. In addition to replacing the M4, the Army also might be looking to change its main subcompact weapon –– essentially a really short machine gun –– which is used mostly by aircraft pilots who need a high degree of maneuverability inside a cockpit. Many of the newer weapons are modular systems, meaning that a single weapon can change into a few different guns by adding a shorter or longer barrel and removing the buttstock. Barbara Muldowney, deputy manager for individual weapons at PEO Soldier, said a modular system is a selling point from the Army's perspective. "If we can find a weapon that could do two things with a few changes, then obviously we're getting a two for one," she said. One long-touted alternative to the M4 is the XM8, developed by the German gunmaker Heckler Koch, which worked closely with the Army on developing that weapon. The plan to use the XM8 as a replacement for the M4 was canceled in 2005 amid a welter of charges and countercharges. Executives at Heckler Koch blamed procurement politics, but others said it was put on hold because the Army lacked a requirement for a new weapon at the time. Colt claimed the new weapon offered no significant advantages. Now that it is shopping around for something new, the Army is open to the XM8. However, Audette said it is up to HK to make the first move, something the company said it plans to do. http://www.spacewar.com/reports/Analysis_Army_seeks_to_replace_M4_and_M16_999.html |
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There are always a few malcontents who think that what the Army issues isn't good enough because it's not the Ultimate Weapon.
Some would have us issue AKs. Others would say "Let's go back to the M-14!". Others would settle for nothing but the phased plasma rifle in the 40 watt range, or the Colonial Marines' Pulse Rifle. Stick with what we have, for now. It's well proven, regularly improved, versatile like no other platform on the planet, and eminently suitable for the needs of the vast majority of combat troops. Those who need something more specialized WILL get what they need, as there are many supplementary weapons choices available to the military. CJ |
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. |
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. dumbest post of the week. OH wait, you're that DU troll in the, "you really ain't got nuthin if you don't have a full auto weapon," thread. |
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decades before,in the fire of crazy arm race,the both superpowers decide, [in different ways !]-the smaller round [5.45, 5.56] is better for theirs infantry,whats is happend at the batlefield to change this decision ? Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too. |
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We've been trying to "replace" the M16 ever since in came out.
Nothing new here. Any possible replacement is years, probably decades away. Spending the money required for at best an incremental improvement in performance (flame suit on) is not going to fly in this budget environment. |
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. dumbest post of the week. OH wait, you're that DU troll in the, "you really ain't got nuthin if you don't have a full auto weapon," thread. ..and what does it say when your only comeback is a juvenile insult. "DU troll"... LOL! |
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Unserviceable rifles are chopped into little bits, then the metal is recycled.
Thanks for the info. Didn't know. So are they really completely shot/good for nothing? Yep. On the lowers, elongated fire control group holes are cause for rejection. As is any deformation/corrosion of significant area. The ippers are crunched when the carrier tracks are worn shiny. Barrels are chopped if they fail the erosion gauge, straightness gauge (a rod that should drop through). |
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. dumbest post of the week. OH wait, you're that DU troll in the, "you really ain't got nuthin if you don't have a full auto weapon," thread. ..and what does it say when your only comeback is a juvenile insult. "DU troll"... LOL! genius, they posted a screen shot of one of your posts on the DU. |
| If its not broken then don't fix it! You can always improve a weapon system, but to replace a proven weapon system with another new system is just because you can is just stupid. When they do replace the M4/M16 they will have a whole new list of problems. So why change if there is nothing currently wrong with what we have, that the small issues with the round sizes and so on can be fixed with just a update. |
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. dumbest post of the week. OH wait, you're that DU troll in the, "you really ain't got nuthin if you don't have a full auto weapon," thread. +1 The rifle had nothing to do with the unconditional part. Keep in mind we used a certain type of bomb that had never been used before. I think that had a little more to do with it than the rifle the infantry used. My personal opinion would be a m4 weapon with a gas piston chambered in something like 6.5 Grendel or 6.8 SPC. I would prefer 6.5 because I already have one. |
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. No offnese but: I don't think you fully understand the modern battlefield, nor the place that "volume of fire" has on the modern battlefield. The reason that the US moved from the M1 platform was demonstrated, acutely, in both Korea, and Vietnam. JMHO YMMV eta  ...a troll
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. Should I tell my M1 that has a broken firing pin that it's not an M1? How bout the one that won't hold the 8-ring @ 200yds? Worn op rods... shot out barrels... broken wood... There is no such thing as a rifle that "...will never jam or break, and is totally accurate..." |
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Quoted: Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too.  |
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Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too. Bang your head all you want. The FACT of the matter is that a lot of soldiers complained about this. Somalia was the reason for he development of larger rounds like the .458 SOCOM, .50 BEOWULF, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. Marty from Teppo Jetsu developed the .458 SOCOM specifically because troops were complaining about the ineffectiveness of the 5.56 against malnourished Somalis. Bang your head if you so choose, but fucking educate yourself first! ETA - The .458 SOCOM was developed by Marty ter Weeme, founder of Teppo Jutsu LLC in 2000. The impetus was an informal ("beer and barbeque") discussion with a senior member of the US special operations community regarding the apparent lack of effectiveness of the 5.56 x 45 cartridge in recent conflict. In particular, the reports from members of Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia that multiple shots were required to neutralize members of the opposing force led to the request to develop a new cartridge that would deliver far more energy from short barrels at relatively short distances. After the design was completed, Tony Rumore of Tromix Corp in Broken Arrow, OK was contacted to build the first prototype. Based on the favorable reviews, commercial production was started and the initial rifles were produced by Tromix. Currently, several firms offer rifles or upper assemblies in this caliber, including AR-15s, AK-47s, single shot and bolt action rifles.
http://teppojutsu.com/458FAQ.htm#_Who_developed_the_.458_SOCOM_Was_it_Tromix_ |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too. Bang your head all you want. The FACT of the matter is that a lot of soldiers complained about this. Somalia was the reason for he development of larger rounds like the .458 SOCOM, .50 BEOWULF, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. Marty from Teppo Jetsu developed the .458 SOCOM specifically because troops were complaining about the ineffectiveness of the 5.56 against malnourished Somalis. Bang your head if you so choose, but fucking educate yourself first! ETA - The .458 SOCOM was developed by Marty ter Weeme, founder of Teppo Jutsu LLC in 2000. The impetus was an informal ("beer and barbeque") discussion with a senior member of the US special operations community regarding the apparent lack of effectiveness of the 5.56 x 45 cartridge in recent conflict. In particular, the reports from members of Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia that multiple shots were required to neutralize members of the opposing force led to the request to develop a new cartridge that would deliver far more energy from short barrels at relatively short distances. After the design was completed, Tony Rumore of Tromix Corp in Broken Arrow, OK was contacted to build the first prototype. Based on the favorable reviews, commercial production was started and the initial rifles were produced by Tromix. Currently, several firms offer rifles or upper assemblies in this caliber, including AR-15s, AK-47s, single shot and bolt action rifles. http://teppojutsu.com/458FAQ.htm#_Who_developed_the_.458_SOCOM_Was_it_Tromix_ You are the one that needs to 'fucking educate yourself'... |
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. Should I tell my M1 that has a broken firing pin that it's not an M1? How bout the one that won't hold the 8-ring @ 200yds? Worn op rods... shot out barrels... broken wood... There is no such thing as a rifle that "...will never jam or break, and is totally accurate..." You are right about that, no such rifle exists.. my mistake as never was the wrong word to use, but I think that compared to the M16 series, the M1 had significantly fewer issues with jams and breakages. |
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Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too. I feel you, bro. 
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. 
HOLY SHIT!!! |
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Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too. Bang your head all you want. The FACT of the matter is that a lot of soldiers complained about this. Somalia was the reason for he development of larger rounds like the .458 SOCOM, .50 BEOWULF, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. Marty from Teppo Jetsu developed the .458 SOCOM specifically because troops were complaining about the ineffectiveness of the 5.56 against malnourished Somalis. Bang your head if you so choose, but fucking educate yourself first! ETA - The .458 SOCOM was developed by Marty ter Weeme, founder of Teppo Jutsu LLC in 2000. The impetus was an informal ("beer and barbeque") discussion with a senior member of the US special operations community regarding the apparent lack of effectiveness of the 5.56 x 45 cartridge in recent conflict. In particular, the reports from members of Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia that multiple shots were required to neutralize members of the opposing force led to the request to develop a new cartridge that would deliver far more energy from short barrels at relatively short distances. After the design was completed, Tony Rumore of Tromix Corp in Broken Arrow, OK was contacted to build the first prototype. Based on the favorable reviews, commercial production was started and the initial rifles were produced by Tromix. Currently, several firms offer rifles or upper assemblies in this caliber, including AR-15s, AK-47s, single shot and bolt action rifles.
http://teppojutsu.com/458FAQ.htm#_Who_developed_the_.458_SOCOM_Was_it_Tromix_ You are the one that needs to 'fucking educate yourself'... I want to read your side of of it silence.....post it please...and no more use of the derogitory statements from either of you or Momma Burn will not let you guys go trick or treating tonight 
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Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too. Bang your head all you want. The FACT of the matter is that a lot of soldiers complained about this. Somalia was the reason for he development of larger rounds like the .458 SOCOM, .50 BEOWULF, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. Marty from Teppo Jetsu developed the .458 SOCOM specifically because troops were complaining about the ineffectiveness of the 5.56 against malnourished Somalis. Bang your head if you so choose, but fucking educate yourself first! ETA - The .458 SOCOM was developed by Marty ter Weeme, founder of Teppo Jutsu LLC in 2000. The impetus was an informal ("beer and barbeque") discussion with a senior member of the US special operations community regarding the apparent lack of effectiveness of the 5.56 x 45 cartridge in recent conflict. In particular, the reports from members of Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia that multiple shots were required to neutralize members of the opposing force led to the request to develop a new cartridge that would deliver far more energy from short barrels at relatively short distances. After the design was completed, Tony Rumore of Tromix Corp in Broken Arrow, OK was contacted to build the first prototype. Based on the favorable reviews, commercial production was started and the initial rifles were produced by Tromix. Currently, several firms offer rifles or upper assemblies in this caliber, including AR-15s, AK-47s, single shot and bolt action rifles.
http://teppojutsu.com/458FAQ.htm#_Who_developed_the_.458_SOCOM_Was_it_Tromix_ You are the one that needs to 'fucking educate yourself'... Motown Steve, you'd fallen for the hype. I'm a really skinny guy, I think a burst of green tip in my CNS would put me down just fine. Somalian fighters were not so skinny they could hide in cracks in the wall like you imply. They had to lug around AKs and ammo afterall. Soldiers who are fighting with adrenaline pumping through their veins are not going to think they missed when they aim and shoot, they are going to think their weapons didn't work. 1. Green tip frags, and even when it doesn't it still kill. 2. Somalians aren't made out of paper 3. Only one guy complained about ammo in Somalia in the Mark Bowden book, BHD, and he complained 3 times. The "bring back the garand" comment is silly also. Garand vs. AK happened in Korea, where was our stunning victory then?
Garands have their gas port very, very close to the muzzle, and ammo specs have to be VERY tight. Any slight fluctuation in gas pressures = malfunction. Johnny Cargo, you have no clue what you are talking about. Garands malfunction just as much as any firearm, and their 8 round clips, slow rate of fire compared to modern guns, and the fact the weapon/ammo is heavy is hell makes it completely unsuited to modern war fighting. Great ranch/civilian guns though. |
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They just keep wasting money don't they? They just did this exact study only a few years ago, with the XM8 and other HK variants, and the M16/M4 is still here. I wonder what .mil staff is on the HK payroll this time.... And they'll have the same conclusion. No rifle they test will be significantly better than the M16. You don't rearm a military our size with something that is just a bit better. Way too costly. |
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How did I know as soon as I clicked on this thread that 'XM-8' would appear somewhere within the article? 
Kharn cause it is basically same article they release evry 2-3 yrs? Then they can release another article making it look like they tried really hard to find new rifle.
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. You have never humped a lot of ammunition, have you? Not that my personal experience with ammo has anything to do with it, but no I was not in WWII but our soldiers did just fine..in fact did great with the M1, winning that war decisively and unconditionally. Odd how after we abandoned the M1, America has no longer won any wars decisively and unconditionally like WWII was. wut dear? The M1 while a fine rifle is not a great opponent to what we have now. It did good in WW2 cause the enemy had mostly bolt action so the M1 was like a hellstorm of lead comparatively. Darling your cause and effect assembler is broken. |
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now I'm all for the military searching for better weapons, but lets face it until something totally revolutionary comes along like caseless, some kinda energy weapon or the like, the M4 is pretty much top tier in terms of conventional weapons it really can't get any better. the HK is pretty much just a M4 with a piston system, which is the only down side to a M4 but at the same time its not a major problem.
the next generation will have to be smaller, lighter and hold more rounds and frankly there is nothing on the table that's even close to what it would take to convince anyone that the M16-4 is obsolete. |
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You are the one that needs to 'fucking educate yourself'... Persistent ignorance is an ugly trait friend. Adding sarcasm to it is only more unbecoming. You should rectify these flaws for your own good. Equally disturbing were the reports that when M855 ammo was fired from the M4 carbines employed by special operations personnel, it too often required multiple hits to neutralize an opponent, even though many Somali males were of slight build.]Equally disturbing were the reports that when M855 ammo was fired from the M4 carbines employed by special operations personnel, it too often required multiple hits to neutralize an opponent, even though many Somali males were of slight build.[/url] [url=http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm]Recommendations: A Government Lethality IPT has been stood up to standardize GEL block testing and an engineering study will be conducted extensive, soft target terminal effects of COTS and military 5.56mm ammunition. The characteristics of each bullet terminal performance will be determined. Based on requirements and using the engineering information, a new round should be type classified and made available. These gripes are specific to M855, but the case is valid. 5.56 requires velocity and dense matter to cause fragmentation. Without fragmentation it is highly ineffective, creating only a very small permanent wound channel. The M4 has a short barrel that does not provide sufficient velocity to cause fragmentation, and the malnourished 3rd world shit heads that our guys are fighting now are too soft to cause sufficient fragmentation. I have heard from more than one Operation Restore Hope vet that they had shot "skinnies" and the bullets just went right through without stopping them. This confirms the reports and investigative findings I have posted. The military, and especially the army is resistant to change. Look at the fight that was required to get the M-16 into service. Now, almost 50 years later there is another fight to replace it. The fight has been bitter and weapons like the XM8 have come close, but have been unsuccessful. Now we are seeing the re-deployment of more .308's for squad designated marksmen and the SCAR for SOCOM. But I guess you're probably right...please show me where I should look to find out what a wonderful and effective system the M4 is with the current issue ammo. ETA - Goatboy, this fucking editor is fucked up beond fucking repair!!!! 
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They need a rifle whose reliability, stopping power, and ruggedness is beyond dispute; and will never jam or break, and is totally accurate, in other words they need to bring back the M1 Garand. Hell, while they're at it why not go back to the trapdoor Springfield?
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Malnourished 3rd world shit heads don't give the 5.56 round enough meat to cause fragmentation. This was a real big problem in Somalia. They are probably wishing they had something with a heavier bullet in Iraq and especially in Afghanistan right now too. Bang your head all you want. The FACT of the matter is that a lot of soldiers complained about this. Somalia was the reason for he development of larger rounds like the .458 SOCOM, .50 BEOWULF, 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel. Marty from Teppo Jetsu developed the .458 SOCOM specifically because troops were complaining about the ineffectiveness of the 5.56 against malnourished Somalis. Bang your head if you so choose, but fucking educate yourself first! ETA - The .458 SOCOM was developed by Marty ter Weeme, founder of Teppo Jutsu LLC in 2000. The impetus was an informal ("beer and barbeque") discussion with a senior member of the US special operations community regarding the apparent lack of effectiveness of the 5.56 x 45 cartridge in recent conflict. In particular, the reports from members of Task Force Ranger in Mogadishu, Somalia that multiple shots were required to neutralize members of the opposing force led to the request to develop a new cartridge that would deliver far more energy from short barrels at relatively short distances. After the design was completed, Tony Rumore of Tromix Corp in Broken Arrow, OK was contacted to build the first prototype. Based on the favorable reviews, commercial production was started and the initial rifles were produced by Tromix. Currently, several firms offer rifles or upper assemblies in this caliber, including AR-15s, AK-47s, single shot and bolt action rifles.
http://teppojutsu.com/458FAQ.htm#_Who_developed_the_.458_SOCOM_Was_it_Tromix_ You are the one that needs to 'fucking educate yourself'... Are you saying that a maker of a different type of weapon may overstate the ineffectiveness of a competitor system? If not you should. I don't have any documentation but I know factually that no one shot with a 5.56mm round has EVER said aw man that ain't shit. |
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Just curious, but if the Army buys 100k new rifles every year, what happens to the old ones? It would seem that they give away at least that many to third world countries that don't even LIKE us and can't be trusted not to sell, trade, or give them away to terrorists and enemies of ours who would be happy to use them to shoot at us or our allies.
CJ |