Posted: 4/21/2003 5:07:18 PM EDT
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[url]http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/yrtwn/swest/207swyt2.htm[/url] Cops shoot two men in car with gun Sunday, April 20, 2003 By Rex Robinson Staff writer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Two men who were sleeping in a car on Chicago's South Side early Saturday morning were shot by police after one of the men awoke and pointed a gun at a police officer, authorities said. The officer approached the car parked at 5331 S. Laflin Ave. at 5:30 a.m. and noticed a handgun sitting on the lap of the driver, Chicago Police Department spokesman Patrick Camden said. The officer then called for help and waited for another officer to assist him. Officers then approached the car again, surrounded it, and woke the driver and another man sleeping in the back seat. When the man in the driver's seat awoke, he immediately picked up the gun despite the officers' warning shouts. "The driver grabbed the handgun and pointed it out the window at the officer," Camden said. The officer, fearing for his safety, fired inside the car, he said. The other officers assisting on the call also fired into the car, police said. The driver put the car in gear and tried to flee, driving on the sidewalk and parkway before hitting a tree and coming to a stop. The two men in the car both suffered gunshot wounds and were being treated at Stroger Hospital, Camden said. Hospital officials said the two men were in critical condition at the hospital Saturday night. Charges are pending against the men, police said. Police administrators said they were reviewing the officers' actions to determine if they were justified. Southtown staff writer Alice Hohl contributed to this report. Rex Robinson may be reached at [email protected] or (708) 633-5964. |
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What I want to know is how the man could put the car into gear and try to drive away AFTER all of the cops had fired into the car? Shooting lessons maybe a good idea? I remember a month ago or something there was a police shooting in Denmark (which is really rare). It was a car chase, the police fired ONE shot, and the driver died, with a bullet in the head. Nice! |
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Why didn't they use the cars PA or siren to wake them up? When we drive to PA. We stop and nap at rest areas on the way and you can bet we have at least one loaded handgun within reach. And anyone who bangs on the windows is going to see its front end. Thing is a cop should know that. I don't see how they gave the guys in the car enough time to wake up and realize they were cops and not someone trying to roll them. And they guys in the car, should have brought a dog with them. |
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Don't see the cops had any choice but having lived in Chicago, I can't help but wonder. Sleeping in your car on the south side even with a gun is foolish without one is suicide. I wonder if the guy was just stranded and sleeping waiting for dawn rather than risk walking the streets at night. Startled and half awake he may have pointed the gun at the officers. Doesn't mean it was a bad shoot by the cop, just a bad day for the shot guy. |
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Quoted: Why didn't they use the cars PA or siren to wake them up?. Really. That would have made much more sense to me. Quoted: I don't see how they gave the guys in the car enough time to wake up and realize they were cops and not someone trying to roll them. I agree. It takes my wife a min or so to get back into the world. She'd have got shot too. Sure as hell's hot. She'd have stuck that pistol out and not known what all the shouting and shit was going on till BAM! |
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I have wondered about this also..If a person is a heavy sleeper(difficulties waking up and alert instantly)..should a GUN be the first defensive option?.. when that trigger is pulled and that bullet flies all options are void.. your best weapon is your mind..use it first and your other tools may never need to leave the tool box....so to speak. |
| Take this story with ten pounds of salt guys. Chicago cops are just another street gang. I worked at St. Anthony's on W 19th St and had many an occaision to interact with them. I have been afraid of the police in only two places my whole life, New Orleans and Chicago, neither of which is known for its lawabiding badge wearers. |
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Quoted: What I want to know is how the man could put the car into gear and try to drive away AFTER all of the cops had fired into the car? Shooting lessons maybe a good idea? Because in the real world handgun bullets rarely cause instant death. Auto body metal, plastic intrior panels, and laminated safty glass all play hell with bullets. Deflecting the bullets, plugging the hollowpoint so they dont expand, stripping the jacket so the bullet losses so much mass it doesnt penetrate deep enough, ect. I ASSumed everyone here already knew that. |
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Quoted: Why didn't they use the cars PA or siren to wake them up? When we drive to PA. We stop and nap at rest areas on the way and you can bet we have at least one loaded handgun within reach. And anyone who bangs on the windows is going to see its front end. Thing is a cop should know that. This wasnt PA. Handguns are pretty much completely illegal in Chicago. So this isnt a license CCW holder taking a cat nap with his gun ijn reach, It's a Felon with a illegal gun. |
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Quote: "It's a Felon with a illegal gun." Um...I assume you meant he's a felon BECAUSE of the 'illegal' gun, because there's no mention of a past felony record in the article. The real question here is, would the LEO's have handled the situation differently if it weren't against the law to possess a handgun in Chicago? Can't say for sure, of course, but I'm guessing the two would have been allowed to continue right on napping, perhaps even without a second glance given, if they'd been observed at, say, a rest stop in Arizona. cynic |
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Quoted: Why didn't they use the cars PA or siren to wake them up? I don't see how they gave the guys in the car enough time to wake up and realize they were cops and not someone trying to roll them. Yeah, maybe they should have brewed some coffee within wiffing distance and greeted them at the car window with the morning paper and a cinnamon bun till they rubbed the sleep out of their eyes and were able to get of a well aimed shot. If a bright light is shining in your face and the cops yell "POLICE! DON'T MOVE!" or "POLICE! DON'T SHOOT" you may not want to raise a gun at them. Just my line of thinking though. You go right ahead and point a gun and loose a warning shot off at whoever taps on your window. Sound like a good shoot to me. |
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Quoted: Justifiable shooting!! Why would they shoot at the Police and then try to leave after exchanging Gunfire? They are shitbirds and was up to no good. Ummm, Where does it say they shot at police? It appears the only shooting was done BY the police. Were they just trying to stay alive without shooting at the police? Not supporting pointing a weapon at LE, but playing Devil's Advocate. |
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If that's what they teach Chicago officers to do in such situations, then they are nuts! Why risk an ARMED confrontation? Get your backup in place and then hot your sirens and lights. Use your loudspeaker to order the men out of the vehicle. End of story. No one has to go in an ambulance anywhere. And no multi-million dollar lawsuits by bereaved family members later! I would think that it would be SOP. Eric The(LawsuitCity)Hun[>]:)] |
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Quoted: If that's what they teach Chicago officers to do in such situations, then they are nuts! Why risk an ARMED confrontation? Get your backup in place and then hot your sirens and lights. Use your loudspeaker to order the men out of the vehicle. End of story. No one has to go in an ambulance anywhere. And no multi-million dollar lawsuits by bereaved family members later! I would think that it would be SOP. Eric The(LawsuitCity)Hun[>]:)] DING DING DING! We have a winner. [b]ANYONE[/b] who is stupid enough to go up to a car window and wake a up a total stranger with an obvious gun in there lap is an idiot. For all they new the guy could have just murdered someone and is ready to fight it out. Not even mentioning the guy waking up might have thought someone was trying to rob him. With other officers there, seems to me it would be much simpler to just block his vehicle in with theirs, and wake him with the PA or some other means, allowing the officers to stay behind cover at least. Sheesh. |
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Quoted: If a bright light is shining in your face and the cops yell "POLICE! DON'T MOVE!" or "POLICE! DON'T SHOOT" you may not want to raise a gun at them. Just my line of thinking though. You go right ahead and point a gun and loose a warning shot off at whoever taps on your window. Uh huh. Bright light in my face. That means I can't see didly-squat. Any jackass with a flashlight can point it in your face and yell "POLICE". I've [i]done[/i] that to scare someone off before; I'm convinced that it kept me from having to shoot them. There is no way you can justify these cops' actions. I'm not saying that the 2 guys in the car were good guys; I'm saying that you have to be nuts to surprise an armed man like that. |
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Quoted: [url]http://www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/yrtwn/swest/207swyt2.htm[/url] Cops shoot two men in car with gun Sunday, April 20, 2003 By Rex Robinson Staff writer -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Two men who were sleeping in a car on Chicago's South Side early Saturday morning were shot by police after one of the men awoke and pointed a gun at a police officer, authorities said. The officer approached the car parked at 5331 S. Laflin Ave. at 5:30 a.m. and noticed a handgun sitting on the lap of the driver, Chicago Police Department spokesman Patrick Camden said. The officer then called for help and waited for another officer to assist him. So, 2-4 cops shoot two men who have done nothing wrong, over Un-constitutional gun laws in Chicago, and 45% of YOU think it's a "Good shoot". I can't help but wonder if we will EVER read an article about a cop who refuses to obey unconstitutional orders.... How many times have you heard a cop say "I'll hand in my badge first".... Ya Right!!! Where are they??? |
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So, 2-4 cops shoot two men who have done nothing wrong, over Un-constitutional gun laws in Chicago, and 45% of YOU think it's a "Good shoot". yep, the future is dim be interesting to see if these cops face any consequences for their obviously stupid murderous actions don't hold your breath |
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Technically, when one points a firearm at a police officer the officer has a right to feel threatened and would presumably be justified in firing in self-defense. Technically. However, as noted above, the cops are complicit in how events evolved. If I were to see a person sleeping with a gun handy I would consider how this person would react when waking. I don't know about you guys, but I don't have that "instant on" feature in my brain. That's why I have my handgun on the nightstand with two steps to be performed before it can be fired (1. Remove from holster and 2. Chamber a round). That gives me a few seconds to get the fuzz out of my head before I am armed with deadly force. I say the cops should have considered all this beforehand. Heck, if you box the car in with a couple of cruisers they're not going anywhere. Wake 'em up with the PA and have them drop the gun out of the window. SOP from there. |
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Quoted: As the article is written, it appears to be a good shoot, but then again it's just a news article, who's to vouch for it's accuracy? |
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Quoted: So, 2-4 cops shoot two men who have done nothing wrong, over Un-constitutional gun laws in Chicago, and 45% of YOU think it's a "Good shoot". I can't help but wonder if we will EVER read an article about a cop who refuses to obey unconstitutional orders.... How many times have you heard a cop say "I'll hand in my badge first".... Ya Right!!! Where are they??? Ayyyy-fuggin-MEN! |
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Ok, IMHO this has 2 parts: Once the officers approached the vehicle and noticed the gun, they COULD have pulled back and woke the suspects from a distance. This would have been the 'How not to get shot in 1 easy step' method, since depending on how the suspect reacted, this could have very easily have gotten one of THEM shot. HOWEVER ONCE THE GUY IN THE CAR PICKED UP HIS WEAPON, it becomes HIS FAULT FOR GETTING SHOT. At that point, he IS pointing a gun at a cop... And that means 'you deserve to get shot'... We can if, how, and why all we want. But the fact is, he pointed a gun at a cop, and he got shot... P.S. As for officer tactics, it seems rather common for them to walk up to a stopped car and wake the occupants. On the way home from Buffalo Range, I was getting 'pull over or fall asleep and crash' tired. So I got off the freeway, pulled over onto the side of an IL state highway, and took a nap. About an hour and a half later, I woke up to high-beams in my rear view, and someone tapping on the door. It was a local Sherrif's deputy, wondering why I was parked on the side of the road... I explained to him that I had stopped to rest so as to avoid an accident from falling asleep at the wheel, and he told me there's a rest area up the freeway a mile or so, asked if he could check my license for warrants (I'm not gonna argue. I don't have any. And POing a cop tends to make them find reasons to ticket you), then went on his way... |
| Hmm.. good shoot or not, I have mixed thoughts about sleeping with a gun on your lap in plain view. On one hand if somebody approaches your car to rob you or steal the car, they will probably take off seeing the gun there. On the other hand they might shoot first and steal the car and your gun. I like to have at least 1 layer of separation between me and a gun by my bed at home, like having to actually reach a ways to grab it, then remove it from a holster, or even keep the chamber empty. If you are awake and alert enough you'll probably be aware of the threat before it's right in your bedroom and you'll have time to get ready, otherwise it's a little buffer of safety as you wake from deep sleep. |
