Posted: 8/31/2009 5:00:10 PM EDT
| Can you be a good Christian without going to church? |
I also believe you can. I don't regulary attend church but I do live by christian values. My mamaw (southern ) used to say "going to church every sunday doesn't make you any more religious than putting gas in your car makes you a mechanic", and she went to church every sunday. Point is, the pews have their fair share of hypocrits.
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I believe so, but I know others don't agree. I haven't found a church I like, and rather than be around people who go to church for the wrong reason, I stay home and observe in my own way. This is particularly a sticking point for me. I don't flash my belief and I'm not a "shout it from the mountaintops" kinda a person to begin with. I am not comfortable in churches with a lot of display. (To say nothing of the ones with sound systems to rival a stadium rock band tour.  ).
Being a real Christian––saved, born again, whatever phrase you want to use––has nothing to do with churche attendance. Yes, there are admonitions to congregate with others of similar belief to learn and strengthen each other, but it's not a mandate and certainly not a prerequisite for salvation. |
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I also believe you can. I don't regulary attend church but I do live by christian values. My mamaw (southern ) used to say "going to church every sunday doesn't make you any more religious than putting gas in your car makes you a mechanic", and she went to church every sunday. Point is, the pews have their fair share of hypocrits.That's good. Grandma sounds like a cool lady. |
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Yes you can but the bible encourages it. If a christian attends church regularly he/she will hear the word of God more frequently. But that's only part of the story. Regular bible study and discussion help even more. Having said that, there are a lot of poor christians who attend church every week, sit through the service and then go ahead and do whatever they were going to do anyway. This is the part of his church we all see; the imperfect one. We see the good christians, the hypocrites, and all in between. He sees the invisible church. He sees into the hearts of us all and knows who the true church is.
It's hard to be a good christian. If you profess to be one, you're up for display and scrutiny. Most of us don't do a good job of christian living. Don't think for a moment that the neighbors know whether or not the garage door opener worked on Sunday morning. If you drink to excess and then do something stupid, your neighbors and friends will know and judge you against who you claim to be. If you do attend church regularly you tend to keep company with others who are trying to live as christians too. It's easier than going it alone. In short, christians are people too; full of all the shortcomings and foibles as everyone else. |
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I guess that depends on what you mean by "church".
The Church is not a building, the Church is people that are positionally in Christ. Yes, you must be part of the Church to be a Christian. No, you do not have to darken the door of a special building to be a Christian. However, I would find it strange if someone who is born again would not want to engage in corporate worship and fellowship. The Bible talks about gathering together in the name of the Lord and instructs us to do so. You should be sitting under Biblical preaching and teaching from somewhere, and being encouraged and encouraging others in spiritual matters. Iron sharpens iron. I know some very strong brothers and sisters in Christ who meet at each others home every other Sunday morning. They sing, read scripture, teach each other, and pray for each other. They eat together and celebrate the Lord's supper. That is there "church". YMMV. |
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God's Word says that we as Christians are not to forsake the assembly.
Do I think you can not go to God's house and not worship Him, and not go and listen to what the Holy Spirit has to say through the anointing on the minister there. Also not to have fellowship in God's house and not deliver tithes and offerings which God commands His people to do. And not to have the benifit of a spiritual covering from a spritual leader and no benifit of intercessory prayer from church members. No opportunity to go as a orginized group of church members and visit the sick at home or in hospitals to witness about Jesus. Will not recieve blessing for going to jails and prisons to minister to the captives. No going to nursing homes to comfort the aged with Christian love and sharing. No orginized Bible studies or going out on mission trips helping people in the community. Not giving people who are new in Christ the benifit of your experiance in Christ which helps them cope as new believers in Christ. No opportunity to recieve financial help and aid in times of hardship. No opportunity to be a youth counsellor at Christian summer camp. No benifit from mid-week prayer service for intercessory prayer. No blessing from Christian counselling services concerning a wide range of issues. No being with members to honor and comfort in a time of personal loss of a loved one. Not having the opportunity to work as a labor of love on church grounds or in the sanctuary of God. No opportunity to help and aid the seniors in the church who in many cases do not get outside support exept from other Christians in their church Also not have the opportunity through your church to serve in other ways like children's ministries from infant to high school range Also no opportunity to serve as a Sunday school teacher. No blessing from becoming a church elder or Deacon and the responsibilities that arise from this position of leadership. Will not have the opportunity to sing and praise the Lord in a open assembly or at practice. Will not have the benifit of daily prayer from other church members and no blessing from praying for them. Will not have the opportunity to give one's musical talent as a choir member or band member. Will not have the opportunity to drive the church van or bus in order that people have a ride to and from God's house who otherwise could not. No benifit from doing things that one does not want to do in ministry, in order to grow in Jesus Christ by getting out of one's comfort zone. Will not have the opportunity to enhance church capabilities by way of example which effects change in other member's attitudes. Will not have the benifit of blessing concerning these, directly from Jesus Christ on the Day of Judgement from His mercy seat, concerning what you did for Him in the way of ministering to others in obediance and according to His Word, for He said through is Word that,''If you did these things to the least of these, then you did it unto Me.'' You ask if you can be a good Christian by not going to church? I don't know, you tell me.. |
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I guess that depends on what you mean by "church". The Church is not a building, the Church is people that are positionally in Christ. Yes, you must be part of the Church to be a Christian. No, you do not have to darken the door of a special building to be a Christian. However, I would find it strange if someone who is born again would not want to engage in corporate worship and fellowship. The Bible talks about gathering together in the name of the Lord and instructs us to do so. You should be sitting under Biblical preaching and teaching from somewhere, and being encouraged and encouraging others in spiritual matters. Iron sharpens iron. I know some very strong brothers and sisters in Christ who meet at each others home every other Sunday morning. They sing, read scripture, teach each other, and pray for each other. They eat together and celebrate the Lord's supper. That is there "church". YMMV. +1 |
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I guess that depends on what you mean by "church". The Church is not a building, the Church is people that are positionally in Christ. Yes, you must be part of the Church to be a Christian. No, you do not have to darken the door of a special building to be a Christian. However, I would find it strange if someone who is born again would not want to engage in corporate worship and fellowship. The Bible talks about gathering together in the name of the Lord and instructs us to do so. You should be sitting under Biblical preaching and teaching from somewhere, and being encouraged and encouraging others in spiritual matters. Iron sharpens iron. I know some very strong brothers and sisters in Christ who meet at each others home every other Sunday morning. They sing, read scripture, teach each other, and pray for each other. They eat together and celebrate the Lord's supper. That is there "church". YMMV. +1 thats what I say brother...it's good to find a good bible beliving church house to attend because there are people that can help you grow in the Lord, as well as you helping others....you just have to pray for the few goats that are at the church house. Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. I like that..amen |
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Yes you can but the Bible encourages all believers to not go it alone. If the churches you find are teaching skewed doctrine, maybe you'd be better off not going. OR if the local churches you find are teaching false doctrine, maybe you were led to attend in order to correct them. Depends on where you are in your Biblical knowledge. At worst case, one should seek others to hold your own church elsewhere.
Don |
| Well if a large number of people stopped going to Church, tithing wouldnt occur as much. No money means no big buildings and not enough to pay the preacher and staffs wages. If there isnt any money to pay Preachers wages then noone would be there to preach the word of whatever church it is. The entire busniess would collapse. Everyone would then be free to interpret the bible as they please rather than how the preacher tells them to and christianity would be so personal it couldnt be called a single religion. Yes to be a "Good" christian you must go to church. |
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Well if a large number of people stopped going to Church, tithing wouldnt occur as much. No money means no big buildings and not enough to pay the preacher and staffs wages. If there isnt any money to pay Preachers wages then noone would be there to preach the word of whatever church it is. The entire busniess would collapse. Everyone would then be free to interpret the bible as they please rather than how the preacher tells them to and christianity would be so personal it couldnt be called a single religion. Yes to be a "Good" christian you must go to church. I find your sarcasm annoying, petty, and full of ignorance. Bet you don't last long in this forum. |
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Well if a large number of people stopped going to Church, tithing wouldnt occur as much. No money means no big buildings and not enough to pay the preacher and staffs wages. If there isnt any money to pay Preachers wages then noone would be there to preach the word of whatever church it is. The entire busniess would collapse. Everyone would then be free to interpret the bible as they please rather than how the preacher tells them to and christianity would be so personal it couldnt be called a single religion. Yes to be a "Good" christian you must go to church. I find your sarcasm annoying, petty, and full of ignorance. Bet you don't last long in this forum. I really don't think he's being sarcastic, just calling it like he sees it, Free. And I'm not giving my opinion about this, just because his views pretty much happen to be my own, but because he happens to be right according to God's Word and will concerning this. No foul here. Thanks, SAE |
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Quoted: some preachers do have jobs and also pastor a local church, and would probley do it with no pay.. I belive a God called preacher is not in for any money jus my .02 Amen. Give me a shepherd rather than a hireling any day. ETA: Just to clarify, I have no problem with someone who gets paid primarily to preach, only with one who preaches primarily to get paid. (If that makes any sense...) |
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some preachers do have jobs and also pastor a local church, and would probley do it with no pay.. I belive a God called preacher is not in for any money jus my .02 How is it that one would feel as if a workman truly worthy of his hire should not be duly compensated for full time services rendered. Let that man go out and toil by the sweat of his own brow in the hope of gaining increase in order to feed his own and then not recieve, and then speak against withholding wages from another,especially when it concerns the Lord's anointed bond servants. For it is not God's perfect will concerning His anointed for them to have one foot in the world, and the other in and about His service. But if he finds himself in that position, then the one's called by command to support him, his family and the ministry stand in error by their own witness concerning God's Kingdom, and will be slack according to a cheerful and giving response as is God's will, and only testify their own greed and faithlessness in which all will suffer lack. For whether the work may be bad or good, the decision to retain or to do away with him is not the responsibility of man, but about the will of God. Thanks, SAE |
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Well if a large number of people stopped going to Church, tithing wouldnt occur as much. No money means no big buildings and not enough to pay the preacher and staffs wages. If there isnt any money to pay Preachers wages then noone would be there to preach the word of whatever church it is. The entire busniess would collapse. Everyone would then be free to interpret the bible as they please rather than how the preacher tells them to and christianity would be so personal it couldnt be called a single religion. Yes to be a "Good" christian you must go to church. I find your sarcasm annoying, petty, and full of ignorance. Bet you don't last long in this forum. I really don't think he's being sarcastic, just calling it like he sees it, Free. And I'm not giving my opinion about this, just because his views pretty much happen to be my own, but because he happens to be right according to God's Word and will concerning this. No foul here. Thanks, SAE Thanks SAE. If there were a hat tipping icon id send it your way. And the calling of ignorance seems to be a bit harsh considering you know of me one post in one forum. I think you would find me of a different calibre person if you knew me. If things were the way the old man intended them, people would be meeting in brush arbors and people would be witnessing to each other, and giving testimonials about how the old man has touched their lives. Nothing but love and admiration being passed around. No six flags over jesus type mega churches where the preacher makes 6 figures tax free telling you you have to come to church to be a good christian. No starbucks in the church. No corrupt guy on tv laying his hand on people healing them as long as you pledge such and such.My point with my original post is these guys make their living telling christians they have to go. I grew up in a church that the preacher didnt accept a dime for the old mans work. I guess im saying if the church were what the old man intended it to be i may change my ignorant mind on this subject. |
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some preachers do have jobs and also pastor a local church, and would probley do it with no pay.. I belive a God called preacher is not in for any money jus my .02 Amen. Give me a shepherd rather than a hireling any day.
ETA: Just to clarify, I have no problem with someone who gets paid primarily to preach, only with one who preaches primarily to get paid. (If that makes any sense...) You guys both make perfect sense. The average time it takes to prepare a thirty minute message is twenty hours. Keep in mind that is an average, sometimes it takes longer. That's from seeking God's guidance on a text, meditating on it, prayer, outline, possibly research for illustrations (usually), writing, proofreading the manuscript, rehearsing delivery, more prayer, fine tuning manuscript and delivery, and then finally to the pulpit. That is a lot of time and energy. If the congregation is large enough to pay him full time that's great. Not all can. It is worth it for someone called to do it, even for no payment, but not every husband and father can carve out that kind of time and still work full time. Some try and their families fall apart. Then there is others who are single, or retired, or well off already who have no problem financially getting by on little or no pay. I know a guy like this at a local Bible church here who is retired and owned the company he worked for. He sold the company and now is a full time Pastor. The church pays him but he tithes it all right back. He lives modestly and has a great outlook on his service to God. There are many interesting situations out there and I think they are fine as long as the clergy is driven by the calling, not the pay. |
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<snip> old man  Not my God. His God ''the old man'' might be. Hey GreasyDugan, tell us about your God bro! 
Thanks, SAE I often find it interesting that people refer to god as "he" or "him". To me it should either be "God" or "it". After all, I don't think "he" is a man per christian standards. More of a spiritual being which would be an "it". |
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some preachers do have jobs and also pastor a local church, and would probley do it with no pay.. I belive a God called preacher is not in for any money jus my .02 Amen. Give me a shepherd rather than a hireling any day.
ETA: Just to clarify, I have no problem with someone who gets paid primarily to preach, only with one who preaches primarily to get paid. (If that makes any sense...) You guys both make perfect sense. The average time it takes to prepare a thirty minute message is twenty hours. Keep in mind that is an average, sometimes it takes longer. That's from seeking God's guidance on a text, meditating on it, prayer, outline, possibly research for illustrations (usually), writing, proofreading the manuscript, rehearsing delivery, more prayer, fine tuning manuscript and delivery, and then finally to the pulpit. That is a lot of time and energy. If the congregation is large enough to pay him full time that's great. Not all can. It is worth it for someone called to do it, even for no payment, but not every husband and father can carve out that kind of time and still work full time. Some try and their families fall apart. Then there is others who are single, or retired, or well off already who have no problem financially getting by on little or no pay. I know a guy like this at a local Bible church here who is retired and owned the company he worked for. He sold the company and now is a full time Pastor. The church pays him but he tithes it all right back. He lives modestly and has a great outlook on his service to God. There are many interesting situations out there and I think they are fine as long as the clergy is driven by the calling, not the pay. that what i was tring to say and yes it is hard to have God first, family, work, and then yourself. That is why we need to really pray for our pastors and there familys. That they can have the time to get in Gods word and pray to have us a message that will feed the sheep. |
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<snip> old man Not my God. His God ''the old man'' might be. Hey GreasyDugan, tell us about your God bro!
Thanks, SAE I often find it interesting that people refer to god as "he" or "him". To me it should either be "God" or "it". After all, I don't think "he" is a man per christian standards. More of a spiritual being which would be an "it". The christian refers to God as "He" or "Him" because God has CHOSEN to reveal Himself to us in the male gender. God the Father is not a man. Is God beyond the limitations of gender? I believe so, but my God is beyond my comprehension. Again, being His creation and having a limited mind, I can not fathom Him anymore than He has allowed. Since Jesus is both God and man and He had a mother here on earth AND since Jesus referred to His Father in heaven it's easy to refer to God as a "Him". Our limitations again, not God's. What a beautiful picture a perfect father is; strong, loving, caring, providing, protective, nurturing, teaching, etc. Wonderful examples we can understand. |
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<snip> old man Not my God. His God ''the old man'' might be. Hey GreasyDugan, tell us about your God bro!
Thanks, SAE I often find it interesting that people refer to god as "he" or "him". To me it should either be "God" or "it". After all, I don't think "he" is a man per christian standards. More of a spiritual being which would be an "it". The christian refers to God as "He" or "Him" because God has CHOSEN to reveal Himself to us in the male gender. God the Father is not a man. Is God beyond the limitations of gender? I believe so, but my God is beyond my comprehension. Again, being His creation and having a limited mind, I can not fathom Him anymore than He has allowed. Since Jesus is both God and man and He had a mother here on earth AND since Jesus referred to His Father in heaven it's easy to refer to God as a "Him". Our limitations again, not God's. What a beautiful picture a perfect father is; strong, loving, caring, providing, protective, nurturing, teaching, etc. Wonderful examples we can understand. Yes, what you say is true. Jesus when He walked this earth in flesh was a man, one hundred percent man, but also one hundred percent God. In my opinion God should be given the up-most of respect and admiration at all times concerning His title and the position He has as the Creatior of everything which has been created. I did however want GreasyDugan to give his own personal views concerning the name he used refering to His God and maybe offer a little insight as to the name's and titles God expects us through His Word to utillize toward Him, as GreasyDugan might be a new believer in Christ as to inform him of possibly some better alternatives that might be more appropriate when refering to the God of all, as some here have already pointed out. I have heard back years ago where some used this term ''old man'' when refering to God. Kind of a old school non-venerate title if you know what I mean. Thanks, SAE |
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some preachers do have jobs and also pastor a local church, and would probley do it with no pay.. I belive a God called preacher is not in for any money jus my .02 Amen. Give me a shepherd rather than a hireling any day.
ETA: Just to clarify, I have no problem with someone who gets paid primarily to preach, only with one who preaches primarily to get paid. (If that makes any sense...) You guys both make perfect sense. The average time it takes to prepare a thirty minute message is twenty hours. Keep in mind that is an average, sometimes it takes longer. That's from seeking God's guidance on a text, meditating on it, prayer, outline, possibly research for illustrations (usually), writing, proofreading the manuscript, rehearsing delivery, more prayer, fine tuning manuscript and delivery, and then finally to the pulpit. That is a lot of time and energy. If the congregation is large enough to pay him full time that's great. Not all can. It is worth it for someone called to do it, even for no payment, but not every husband and father can carve out that kind of time and still work full time. Some try and their families fall apart. Then there is others who are single, or retired, or well off already who have no problem financially getting by on little or no pay. I know a guy like this at a local Bible church here who is retired and owned the company he worked for. He sold the company and now is a full time Pastor. The church pays him but he tithes it all right back. He lives modestly and has a great outlook on his service to God. There are many interesting situations out there and I think they are fine as long as the clergy is driven by the calling, not the pay. Is about twenty hours a week to prepair for a message for Sunday morning service all the time you think a minister of the Gospel needs to spend in order to serve in a full time ministry at a church? Try about four times that amount to do the job properly and thoroughly. This is about what my pastor invest's with a three hundred person congregation in a week's time. There is much more to do than prepare for a once a week sermon. Much more. Thanks, SAE |
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Is about twenty hours a week to prepair for a message for Sunday morning service all the time you think a minister of the Gospel needs to spend in order to serve in a full time ministry at a church? Try about four times that amount to do the job properly and thoroughly. This is about what my pastor invest's with a three hundred person congregation in a week's time. There is much more to do than prepare for a once a week sermon. Much more. Thanks, SAE No, I was using that as a way to demonstrate how much time and effort goes into just one aspect of ministry in an effort to help those that do not know to understand something. That it is more than acceptable to compensate someone for their time in order to allow them to continue to minister. Most people are surprised at how much time it takes to prepare a message. I have friends that Pastor various sized congregations. They all have VERY different ministries and different challenges. Thanks for pointing that out. |
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Can you be a good Christian without going to church? IMO you can be a Christian and not attend services. You will never convince someone otherwise who believes that they must go to church, as one of the things on their list of things that they must do to be a christian. Asking if you can be a "good" Christian is playing into their hands because it gives the foregone conclusion that their are good and better Christians and possibly even bad Christians. IMO being a Christian is more about what Christ has done for me than about following someone elses notion of what I should be. I don't have an axe to grind with any church. I enjoy going and telling the people who think I am lost because I missed a few weeks that I am doing great. I have learned more and become closer to Christ while away from church than I ever did in church. He has set me free from that obligation, and now I am free indeed. I have also learned that talking about it or trying to convice others (of almost anything) is futile, so I don't know why I even posted. 
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Can you be a good Christian without going to church? IMO you can be a Christian and not attend services. You will never convince someone otherwise who believes that they must go to church, as one of the things on their list of things that they must do to be a christian. Asking if you can be a "good" Christian is playing into their hands because it gives the foregone conclusion that their are good and better Christians and possibly even bad Christians. IMO being a Christian is more about what Christ has done for me than about following someone elses notion of what I should be. I don't have an axe to grind with any church. I enjoy going and telling the people who think I am lost because I missed a few weeks that I am doing great. I have learned more and become closer to Christ while away from church than I ever did in church. He has set me free from that obligation, and now I am free indeed. I have also learned that talking about it or trying to convice others (of almost anything) is futile, so I don't know why I even posted.
That is correct. You are not to follow someone else's notion of what you should be, and where you should go. God's Word, that is the Bible, is clear enough on both these matters. Leaving man's opinion out of these decisions and choices that a man or woman will make, is a wise course of action for one indeed! Thanks, SAE |
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Loaded question...
If you're asking if you can be a Christian without attending church, then yes. Christians are still Christians even if they are in an area with no church whatsoever. If you're asking if going to church make you a Christian, the answer is no. Your faith in Jesus makes you a Christian. If you're asking if it matters whether or not you choose to attend (a healthy, loving, doctrinally sound) church, I believe that the answer from scripture is clearly yes. Hebrews 10:24-25 "And let us consider how we may spur one another on toward love and good deeds. Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching." Fellowship and corporate worship is an integral part of Christian life. |
| Meeting together is not "church" as we know it. Nowhere in the New Testament does it lay out a blueprint for "church" as we know it today. That is mans doing and is probably closer to the religious establishment that Christ railed against, than to what the New Testament writers intended. Singing a few songs and listening to a pastor take scripture out of context until it says what he wants is not IMO what the Apostles were laying out. Christ is the head. He is the teacher. A weekly church service isn't really fellowship IMO. The Pastor sheparding the flock started a century AD. And the role of leadership was intensified as governments wanted to be able to control the people through church influence. Most notably the King James version intensified all leadership references to further obligate people to the "church". |
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Meeting together is not "church" as we know it. Nowhere in the New Testament does it lay out a blueprint for "church" as we know it today. That is mans doing and is probably closer to the religious establishment that Christ railed against, than to what the New Testament writers intended. Singing a few songs and listening to a pastor take scripture out of context until it says what he wants is not IMO what the Apostles were laying out. Christ is the head. He is the teacher. A weekly church service isn't really fellowship IMO. The Pastor sheparding the flock started a century AD. And the role of leadership was intensified as governments wanted to be able to control the people through church influence. Most notably the King James version intensified all leadership references to further obligate people to the "church". What church have you been to where the Pastor took the Scriptures out of context for his own gain? What Scriptures was this Pastor making reference to, and to what end for his own personal benifit? Thanks, SAE |
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Thanks SAE. If there were a hat tipping icon id send it your way. And the calling of ignorance seems to be a bit harsh considering you know of me one post in one forum. I think you would find me of a different calibre person if you knew me.
If things were the way the old man intended them, people would be meeting in brush arbors and people would be witnessing to each other, and giving testimonials about how the old man has touched their lives. Nothing but love and admiration being passed around. No six flags over jesus type mega churches where the preacher makes 6 figures tax free telling you you have to come to church to be a good christian. No starbucks in the church. No corrupt guy on tv laying his hand on people healing them as long as you pledge such and such.My point with my original post is these guys make their living telling christians they have to go. I grew up in a church that the preacher didnt accept a dime for the old mans work. I guess im saying if the church were what the old man intended it to be i may change my ignorant mind on this subject. I'm not proud of this, but that's the exact term I used for a certain place in Baton Rouge, LA for a long time. I've never heard that from anyone else. Oops... somehow I messed up the "quote" thing... As far as the "old man" thing from the other posts, how many times have we referred to God as "the man upstairs"? I know I have many times. I never really thought of it as a derogatory title. Of course, I am almost famous for making mistakes!
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Meeting together is not "church" as we know it. Nowhere in the New Testament does it lay out a blueprint for "church" as we know it today. That is mans doing and is probably closer to the religious establishment that Christ railed against, than to what the New Testament writers intended. Singing a few songs and listening to a pastor take scripture out of context until it says what he wants is not IMO what the Apostles were laying out. Christ is the head. He is the teacher. A weekly church service isn't really fellowship IMO. The Pastor sheparding the flock started a century AD. And the role of leadership was intensified as governments wanted to be able to control the people through church influence. Most notably the King James version intensified all leadership references to further obligate people to the "church". I appreciate that you noted your post to reflect that it was your opinion. I completely agree with one specific thing you said, "...listening to a pastor take scripture out of context until it says what he wants is not IMO what the Apostles were laying out." Other than that, I think you're way off track. Church and church leadership have exactly jack squat to do with how the KJV renders the text. If you read the κοινὴ, it's very clear that church leadership was in effect from the beginning and that corporate fellowship, worship, and singing were indeed part and parcel of Christian life in the early church. |
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Meeting together is not "church" as we know it. Nowhere in the New Testament does it lay out a blueprint for "church" as we know it today. That is mans doing and is probably closer to the religious establishment that Christ railed against, than to what the New Testament writers intended. Singing a few songs and listening to a pastor take scripture out of context until it says what he wants is not IMO what the Apostles were laying out. Christ is the head. He is the teacher. A weekly church service isn't really fellowship IMO. The Pastor sheparding the flock started a century AD. And the role of leadership was intensified as governments wanted to be able to control the people through church influence. Most notably the King James version intensified all leadership references to further obligate people to the "church". I appreciate that you noted your post to reflect that it was your opinion. I completely agree with one specific thing you said, "...listening to a pastor take scripture out of context until it says what he wants is not IMO what the Apostles were laying out." Other than that, I think you're way off track. Church and church leadership have exactly jack squat to do with how the KJV renders the text. If you read the κοινὴ, it's very clear that church leadership was in effect from the beginning and that corporate fellowship, worship, and singing were indeed part and parcel of Christian life in the early church. Good morning brother hcook, And I quite agree. There always has been since Christianity's conception, certain pastors of all different kinds of churches where Christ abides, or abided at one time, who exercise their authority fron the pulpit in a manner that is not pleasing to God by any stretch of God's Word pertaining to the way a Pastor should conduct his business from there. Notice who I state ''his business'' and not ''God's business'', which should more than likely apply here according to His Word, which should line up together pretty much anyway. However even Pastors are prone to error, on occasion, and none are exempt, and as long as one of these are speaking out of love and edification for their flock, I believe a little patience in these matters is better that jumping to a possibly premature conclusion about what a pastor's motivations might be. In some cases as I believe as I understand here, is that a person may make some general remarks about the way he or she may feel, about the way that all these things pertaining to the way a church should be managed, especially if they do not attend on any consistant basis, or pay God tribute, or do any ministry work at all. The Word of God isn't and wasn't designed to make the ones who read it, and are preached from it, to feel warm and fuzzy on the inside all the time. Sometimes it can sting like a bee, if that is what the Spirit's intention is, concerning certain matters. However it was not designed to run over like a truck, like some have used it, or might like to use it. And instead of pointing out some of the short-commings concerning anyone who is a member or leader in the church of Jesus Christ, these may be making some of these negative statements about such, because they may have some hidden agendas of their own concerning their claims. Thanks, SAE |
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Thanks SAE. If there were a hat tipping icon id send it your way. And the calling of ignorance seems to be a bit harsh considering you know of me one post in one forum. I think you would find me of a different calibre person if you knew me.
If things were the way the old man intended them, people would be meeting in brush arbors and people would be witnessing to each other, and giving testimonials about how the old man has touched their lives. Nothing but love and admiration being passed around. No six flags over jesus type mega churches where the preacher makes 6 figures tax free telling you you have to come to church to be a good christian. No starbucks in the church. No corrupt guy on tv laying his hand on people healing them as long as you pledge such and such.My point with my original post is these guys make their living telling christians they have to go. I grew up in a church that the preacher didnt accept a dime for the old mans work. I guess im saying if the church were what the old man intended it to be i may change my ignorant mind on this subject. As far as the "old man" thing from the other posts, how many times have we referred to God as "the man upstairs"? I know I have many times. I never really thought of itas a derogatory title. Of course, I am almost famous for making mistakes! [/quote]
Pardon me brother, but I didn't mean ''ignorant'' meaning stupid like me  , but ignorant as about what God might say in the Bible about reverencing Him.
I also know that there are some titles concernng God ,being from the south like I am that are like that as well as some ones at this stage of my walk and life I probably would not utillize too much. However if you feel comfortable with it, then who am I or anyone else to say how God feels about it, concerning the personal relationship betwwen you and Him. Thanks, SAE |
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Pardon me brother, but I didn't mean ''ignorant'' meaning stupid like me
, but ignorant as about what God might say in the Bible about reverencing Him.
I also know that there are some titles concernng God ,being from the south like I am that are like that as well as some ones at this stage of my walk and life I probably would not utillize too much. However if you feel comfortable with it, then who am I or anyone else to say how God feels about it, concerning the personal relationship betwwen you and Him. Thanks, SAE No need for pardons. I hope you didn't take my comment as a calling out. I was not referring to any one post at all. I just threw out my 2 cents in response to the general question about calling God "old man" in the posts before mine. I personally don't refer to Him as such, but I have called Him "the man upstairs" more than once. I just never thought of that as being disrespectful, but maybe it was. Hey, I think I figured out how to work the "quote" thing...
Now, looking (reading) back, I think you may be attributing a quote to me that I did not post. Just a guess, though... |
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Pardon me brother, but I didn't mean ''ignorant'' meaning stupid like me
, but ignorant as about what God might say in the Bible about reverencing Him.
I also know that there are some titles concernng God ,being from the south like I am that are like that as well as some ones at this stage of my walk and life I probably would not utillize too much. However if you feel comfortable with it, then who am I or anyone else to say how God feels about it, concerning the personal relationship betwwen you and Him. Thanks, SAE No need for pardons. I hope you didn't take my comment as a calling out. I was not referring to any one post at all. I just threw out my 2 cents in response to the general question about calling God "old man" in the posts before mine. I personally don't refer to Him as such, but I have called Him "the man upstairs" more than once. I just never thought of that as being disrespectful, but maybe it was. Hey, I think I figured out how to work the "quote" thing...
Now, looking (reading) back, I think you may be attributing a quote to me that I did not post. Just a guess, though... Maybe so brother, I think the one your refering to, or I was posting on was a comment made by a low count poster named GreasyDugan, that got jumped on by a couple of zealots for making a couple of references about ''the old man'' but everything is cool between you and me all the same, as far as I'm concerned. I hope yiu feel the same way too! 
Have been on some meds here lately.
Thanks SAE |
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Pardon me brother, but I didn't mean ''ignorant'' meaning stupid like me
, but ignorant as about what God might say in the Bible about reverencing Him.
I also know that there are some titles concernng God ,being from the south like I am that are like that as well as some ones at this stage of my walk and life I probably would not utillize too much. However if you feel comfortable with it, then who am I or anyone else to say how God feels about it, concerning the personal relationship betwwen you and Him. Thanks, SAE No need for pardons. I hope you didn't take my comment as a calling out. I was not referring to any one post at all. I just threw out my 2 cents in response to the general question about calling God "old man" in the posts before mine. I personally don't refer to Him as such, but I have called Him "the man upstairs" more than once. I just never thought of that as being disrespectful, but maybe it was. Hey, I think I figured out how to work the "quote" thing...
Now, looking (reading) back, I think you may be attributing a quote to me that I did not post. Just a guess, though... Maybe so brother, I think the one your refering to, or I was posting on was a comment made by a low count poster named GreasyDugan, that got jumped on by a couple of zealots for making a couple of references about ''the old man'' but everything is cool between you and me all the same, as far as I'm concerned. I hope yiu feel the same way too!
Have been on some meds here lately.
Thanks SAE Oh yeah... we're good. I think I started the confusion by messing up the "quote" feature. I think I made something look like my comment when I was trying to answer it... Oh well, me and technology don't do well together sometimes. |