Posted: 12/28/2009 5:54:37 PM EDT
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Okay a gift for christmas was a Kitchen Aid stand mixer. No I'm not a chick but I do like to cook.
I had thought I'd make up some good rosemary bread or something like that go with a nice NY strip off the grill. Anyhow I followed a typical white bread recipe and it keeps coming out like flat and damned heavy cake. I used 2 different brands of yeast, even switched to bread baking flour. It's better but still not very danged light and fluffy. WTF!!!??? I punch it down after the rise and seperate into 2 loaves then try to get it to rise again and this is where it seems to be a bit flat. It rises but nowhere near the first rise. Should I just skip the punch down and cook it off the first rise? Suggestions? Maybe use yeast and self rising flour together? WTF??? I'm starting to dislike baking. I figure I've got 8 loaves of dog treats so far today. At least my GSDs appreciate it. 
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Quoted:
You might need a little more sugar in the recipe for the yeast to eat. Also, make sure the water is not so hot as to harm any of the yeast. Rising is best accomplished in a slightly warm area. Find a nice dark room and put the bowl next to your furnace vent. Correct - warm (NOT HOT) water for the yeast Cover the bowl with a damp cloth and set in a warm place - let it rise for an hour, seperate, pucnh down, and rise again for another hour at least. |
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You can't over-knead dough, unless you leave it on the machine for a ridiculously long time. It's not over-kneaded until the gluten squeezes the water out and it re-separates.
You may have under-kneaded, though. You need enough gluten to *retain* the gases. If you haven't got that, you will get some inflation, but it won't hold in enough to do what you want it to do. It should be smooth and silken when you're done kneading, and you have good water/flour proportions. Not really sticky anymore, but will stick if you pinch or poke into it without bench flour on your fingers. Also, try two additional steps, if you missed them: 1 - give the yeast a wake up call and breakfast. Put the water and yeast in the water in the mixer. NO SALT at this point. Give it a quick stir. You should smell yeasty goodness. If not, it's dead, try again. Give the water a little bit of flour and mix it in fairly well. What that will do is break up the yeast particles (the living yeast are inside the pellets, with the outer shell made of dead yeasts) and give them something to start eating while they're spreading out. Adding salt into the water will kill the little guys, dead. You can add other wet ingredients (butter, sugar, flavors, etc.) at this time. Sugar is a wet ingredient in this context, but it won't hurt if you only put in a sprinkle now or wait until the main dump. 2 - when you add the remainder of your flour and get it stirred in, is when you add the salt in your recipe, as well as whatever other dry ingredients at this time. Get it stirred in and incorporated, then let it rest for a bit before you work it on the machine. That will let the starches unravel and get to know each other while they pick up water. It will improve the knead. Also, when you knead, even if you do so on a machine, take it out when you're done and give it a few folds and stretches before you shape it for final rise. |
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Try this... It always works for me... Note the step with the yeast... Julia Child's White Bread By: Gay Gilmore May 17, 2001 SERVES 16 , 2 loaves (change servings and units) Ingredients 2 1/2 cups water (105-115 F) 1 tablespoon active dry yeast 1 tablespoon sugar 7 cups bread flour or all-purpose flour 1 tablespoon salt 1/4-1/2 cup unsalted butter, softened Directions Pour 1/2 cup of the water into a bowl and mix with yeast and sugar til foamy. Let sit for 5 minutes until creamy. Put the yeast mixture, rest of the water and 3 1/2 cups of the flour into the mixer with the dough hook. Mix slowly until blended then add the rest of the flour. Increase speed and scrape down the sides til the dough comes together. (If it doesn't add a tbsp of flour at a time til it does.) Add salt and mix at medium speed for 10 minutes (or do half in mixer and half kneading) til dough is smooth and elastic. Back in mixer add butter 1 tbsp at a time (dough may come apart, but mixing will pull it back together). Turn dough out on lightly floured surface and shape it into a ball then place in a large buttered or oiled bowl. Turn dough so it is completely coated in the fat, then cover in plastic for 45 minutes to an hour, til it has doubled in size at room temperature. Butter 2 loaf pans. Deflate the dough, cut in half and turn out onto a lightly floured surface. Roll out into a 9 x 12-inch rectangle. With the short end facing you, fold the dough into thirds like a sheet of paper to go into an envelope, creating a roll. Pinch the seam closed, and pinch the ends enough so it will fit in the loaf pan. Drop in the loaf pan seem side down, and repeat. Cover the loaves with buttered plastic wrap and allow to rise again in a warm place (80°F) for 45 minutes, until they double in size. Preheat the oven to 375°F and put the rack in the center of the oven. Bake for 35-45 minutes til they are honey brown. Immediately turn out of pans onto a rack to cool. Once almost completely cool, they can be cut. Store in a brown paper bag for a day or two. Once cut, turn cut side down onto a cutting board and cover with a kitchen towel. |
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Here is one of my own (took a combination of a few recipes and modified them to my tastes). Potato Cinamon Bread.... Note the step with the yeast... Ingredients: 1 Idaho potato, peeled and diced 1-1/2 cups water 2 (.25 oz.) packages active dry yeast 6-1/2 cups all-purpose flour 3 tablespoons white sugar 2 tablespoons butter 1 tablespoon salt 2 tablespoons all-purpose flour Filling: 1/2 cup sugar, 2 teaspoons cinnamon. Instructions: In a medium saucepan cook potato cubes in water for 12 minutes or until tender. Do not drain. Cool mixture to 110 degrees F (43 degrees C). Set aside 1/2 cup of potato water. Mash potato (use a mixer) in remaining liquid; if necessary add warm water to make 2 cups potato mixture. In a small bowl, combine 1/2 cup of 110 degree (lukewarm) potato water with yeast and sugar. Let set until foamy. Add mashed potato mixture, yeast mixture, 2 cups of the flour, butter, and salt. Beat with an electric mixer with a dough hook on low speed until ingredients combine. Stir in as much of the remaining flour as you can mix in (should be about all of it).Beat about 8 minutes at medium speed or until dough is smooth and elastic. (if you don't have a mixer with dough hooks...Google how to knead bread dough by hand) Place dough in a lightly greased bowl; turn once to grease surface. Cover. Let rise in warm place until doubled in bulk (about 1 hour). Punch down and turn out onto a lightly floured surface. Divide dough in half. Use a rolling pin to lighlty stretch the dough into squares...spread cinnamon and sugar mixture over square of dough...roll like a jelly roll, pinch ends, folding under the dough to form into a loaf. Place in greased 8 x 4 x 2 loaf pans. Cover. Let rise until nearly double (about 35 minutes). Before baking, brush tops with a little water and dust with additional flour. Bake at 375 degree F (190 degrees C) for 40 to 45 minutes. Cover with foil for the last 15 minutes of baking to prevent over-browning. Remove from pan; cool on wire rack. You could add a cup of raisins to this...just do it when you intially combine the ingredients.. |
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This is a quickbread...not really a bread...but something to make in that new mixer of yours. Easy to make and tastes great.... ONLY use real butter...none of that plastic margerine garbage. 1 cup butter 2 cups white sugar 2 eggs 1 cup sour cream 1/2 teaspoon vanilla extract 2 cups all-purpose flour 1 teaspoon baking powder 1/8 teaspoon salt 1/3 cup all-purpose flour 1/2 cup packed brown sugar 2 tablespoons melted butter 1 teaspoon ground cinnamon DIRECTIONS Preheat oven to 350 degrees F (175 degrees C). Grease a 9x13 inch baking pan. In a large bowl, cream together 1 cup butter and white sugar until light and fluffy. Beat in the eggs one at a time, then stir in the sour cream and vanilla. Mix in 2 cups flour, baking powder, and salt. Spread 1/2 of batter in the prepared pan. Prepare the filling: In a medium bowl mix 1/3 cup flour, brown sugar, 2 tablespoons melted butter, and cinnamon. Sprinkle cake batter with 1/2 the filling. Spread second half of batter over the filling, and top with remaining filling. Bake 35 to 40 minutes in the preheated oven, or until a toothpick inserted near the center comes out clean. |
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Quoted: Proofing needs to be done between 90 and 100 º F. And yes, you need some sugar in the mix to feed the yeast. Listen to Keith, he knows what he's talking about. I've been baking bread for the last year or so and cannot get my dough to rise properly without sugar in the yeast/hot water. |
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I bake about 90% of our bread. If your using the Kitchenaid white bread recipe you most likely are not kneading the bread right. Kneading is where everything comes together. A properly kneaded dough with have a smooth feel to it. It helps to slam the dough down onto a hard surface a few times while kneading. Even letting it rest a bit before you start. You do NOT have to add a lot of flour while kneading. The dough should be a bit sticky and damp when you get done. It sounds like you are adding too much floor and not kneading enough. Too much flour will make the bread hard and doughy. The recipe calls for 5 to 6 cups of flour when you mix it. I generally use six cups when I use that recipe and use maybe another 1/4 cup of flour when I'm kneading the bread. Just finished a batch today. Took 4 frikkin' hours for it to rise since its a bit cold in the house. Make sure you let the dough double on both rises, regardless how long it takes. The longer you allow the rise the better tasting the bread will be. Proofing is just a way to hurry the process and is done by commercial bakers because time is money to them. Also use instant yeast like this. Mix everything except the flour and let the mix set for a bit until the sugar, salt, butter, milk, water and yeast are foamy and bubbling. Add the flour and mix. When the dough is cleaning the bowl put it on a silicone pie mat dusted with flour and start kneading. Also weigh your flour. 4 1/4 ounces to the cup and use Gold Medal or King Arthur bread flour. I can't say enough good things about the King Arthur Flour Company Baker's Companion. One of the best books on bread going. Don't get discouraged. Everyone makes a few bricks when your starting out. My first few bread making experiments could have been used to bash in someone's head and not even have dented the loaf. Kneading is an art. You will get a feel for it. King Arthur Flour |
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OK, stupid question time.
How cold is it in your house? I ask because I've run into trouble with a slow rise when the house is cool, like 64 F cool. It'll take a lot longer for the yeast to off gas when they're not in the right temp range. I mean the whole dough, not just the warm water for activating the yeast. You check the date on your yeast packs? Old yeast isn't reliable. For yeast a few months out, I just add more. |
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Quoted:
You can't over-knead dough, unless you leave it on the machine for a ridiculously long time. It's not over-kneaded until the gluten squeezes the water out and it re-separates. You may have under-kneaded, though. You need enough gluten to *retain* the gases. If you haven't got that, you will get some inflation, but it won't hold in enough to do what you want it to do. It should be smooth and silken when you're done kneading, and you have good water/flour proportions. Not really sticky anymore, but will stick if you pinch or poke into it without bench flour on your fingers. Also, try two additional steps, if you missed them: 1 - give the yeast a wake up call and breakfast. Put the water and yeast in the water in the mixer. NO SALT at this point. Give it a quick stir. You should smell yeasty goodness. If not, it's dead, try again. Give the water a little bit of flour and mix it in fairly well. What that will do is break up the yeast particles (the living yeast are inside the pellets, with the outer shell made of dead yeasts) and give them something to start eating while they're spreading out. Adding salt into the water will kill the little guys, dead. You can add other wet ingredients (butter, sugar, flavors, etc.) at this time. Sugar is a wet ingredient in this context, but it won't hurt if you only put in a sprinkle now or wait until the main dump. 2 - when you add the remainder of your flour and get it stirred in, is when you add the salt in your recipe, as well as whatever other dry ingredients at this time. Get it stirred in and incorporated, then let it rest for a bit before you work it on the machine. That will let the starches unravel and get to know each other while they pick up water. It will improve the knead. Also, when you knead, even if you do so on a machine, take it out when you're done and give it a few folds and stretches before you shape it for final rise. Make a sponge: Mix the Milk and yeast, warm the milk up to room temp or 90-100* first. Let the yeast sit in the milk and wait until you smell the yeast. Now mix it with 2/3's of the flour for the recipe. Let this sit for 1hr, more or less. Then mix everything else in and let it rest. Then knead the dough. Form into your chosen style (boule, loaves, etc). Let rise for 1.5-2hr. Then bake, if you can find out what the temp of the bread should be at completion this will help in getting it done properly. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Proofing needs to be done between 90 and 100 º F. And yes, you need some sugar in the mix to feed the yeast. Listen to Keith, he knows what he's talking about. I've been baking bread for the last year or so and cannot get my dough to rise properly without sugar in the yeast/hot water. Do not add sugar until later in the recipe. The yeast will process the wheat and create good flavor. If they process the sugar they just make gas. |
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Quoted: None of my yeast has shown any foaming at all. It merely turns to brownish creamy water. I've tried 2 brands from the same store, maybe poor storage or too old? I added sugar to warm water and yeast and a couple bubbles at most. That's your problem. You'll know it when the yeast activates. The first time I made bread I overheated the water in the microwave, and killed the yeast. Now I just use warm tap water. |
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I also warm my oven just a hair....put it on it's lowest setting for a minute or two, then open the door and turn it OFF... Heat it up just enough to just warm it up a bit...say about 85 degrees...and that's it... Place my bread dough in the oven covered by a loose cloth to let rise... |
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Quoted: We bought a bread maker. Dump all the stuff in, push start and come back to fresh bread in 3 hours. Havent bought a loaf of store bought bread in months. Wifey makes a loaf every other day or so, and it is always fresh, always good. Bread Maker ftmfw What brand/model do you have? I bought one and tried a bunch of recipes.... Bread has never turned out quite right. Of course, I bought a cheapie one from WalyWorld... |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
We bought a bread maker. Dump all the stuff in, push start and come back to fresh bread in 3 hours. Havent bought a loaf of store bought bread in months. Wifey makes a loaf every other day or so, and it is always fresh, always good. Bread Maker ftmfw What brand/model do you have? I bought one and tried a bunch of recipes.... Bread has never turned out quite right. Of course, I bought a cheapie one from WalyWorld... Same one you have Oester. $50 |
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Quoted:
You might need a little more sugar in the recipe for the yeast to eat. Also, make sure the water is not so hot as to harm any of the yeast. Rising is best accomplished in a slightly warm area. Find a nice dark room and put the bowl next to your furnace vent. Yup. Sounds like you're killing the yeast. Depending on how new your oven is, see if it has a "proof" setting. If so, use that to allow your bread to raise properly. I have a kick ass rosemary bread recipie, that's at home. I'll try to remember to bring it tomorrow. It does take two days to make though, but it's worth it!. |
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If he were killing the yeast with hot water, wouldn't the bread fail rise the first time? He says it's the second rise that's failing. I'd go with under-kneading, thus insufficient gluten to retain the carbon dioxide produced by the yeast, but I'm no master baker.
Don't use self-rising flour and yeast together for this application. It will not work the way you expect. Berenbaum's Bread Bible has a biscuit recipe that uses both, but that's not what we're going for here. |
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I bought The Bread Naker's Apprentice by Peter Reinhart
http://www.amazon.com/Bread-Bakers-Apprentice-Mastering-Extraordinary/dp/1580082688 and have been trying recipies out from the book. Pain L'Ancienne is the bomb... I made my own sourdough starter from scratch too. I fed it everything from rye to cake flour just to experiment. It made a killer whole wheat sourdough. I let it die though over a very busy summer. |
| To the OP, bread & pastry making is an acquired skill, it takes a little time to master. If you want instant success, buy a bread maker and boxed mix or better yet, buy Buford Ready made from the freezer section of the store. If you want artisan quality bread, stick with it and take/make notes as you go. When you get good, buy the grain mill attachment from Kitchenaid and grind your wheat & grain. I've yet to meet anyone who made a quality bread on their first attempt and there is more to it than just dumping it all together and mixing. |
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I want to think the person on here who recomended the rebuilt mixers from Kitchen Aid. I bought one 2 christmas's ago. It's just as nice as a new one and with a big savings. The warranty was only a little shorter than new.
If you're looking for a Kitchen Aid, go to the KitchenAid website and lookup the rebuilt mixers. You can't loose. |