[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Balkanization (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/5/2014 4:28:22 AM EDT
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Disclaimer: This is a hypothetical set of questions. At no point am I condoning anything that could be potentially discussed in this topic, however I am trying to understand how some people believe this to be a legitimate course of action in a hypothetical future.
I have seen in multiple topics in the recent past where individuals post about, or call upon potential secession of states from the union. A second American revolution if you will. The question I propose to this idea is that with America being so diverse in culture, beliefs, political views, etc. anymore how would such a thing even be feasible? The America today is vastly different than that of the 1860's, even the most conservative states have oasis' and or diffuse liberalism. Most of these tending to be large population centers with a significant portion of the states total population residing in them. Also, as seen with sites like DU, these people are not only ready for conflict against those who do not share their beliefs, they openly encourage it. With there being no substantial defined geographical lines to separate populations with similar mindsets and beliefs as there were the last time the nation was completely polarized, and with a over reaching government literally in every state and every area of the country, what would be the catalyst? How would division actually happen? What would the results of that division be with government influence as it stands? and how would individual states hope to maintain themselves in the chaos that would ensue? Discuss |
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I'd be the same as anywhere. The state breaks apart, and whoever has the most guns in one particular area kills the people not like them. Those people being killed then flee to wherever they're the majority and kill the people not like them there. You you just explained all of human history in two sentences. Bravo good sir, bravo. |
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I'd be the same as anywhere. The state breaks apart, and whoever has the most guns in one particular area kills the people not like them. Those people being killed then flee to wherever they're the majority and kill the people not like them there. That would never happen with the country as it is. The feds would step in at any point where that might happen and quell anything that could occur in an attempt to maintain control and power. Without a united front as a state or group of states you would have a "dual front" conflict both with the government and the people with whom your views are opposed and you would be put down. This is on the assumption that any resistance up to this point would be cohesive and organized enough to have gotten this far. |
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That would never happen with the country as it is. The feds would step in at any point where that might happen and quell anything that could occur in an attempt to maintain control and power. Without a united front as a state or group of states you would have a "dual front" conflict both with the government and the people with whom your views are opposed and you would be put down. This is on the assumption that any resistance up to this point would be cohesive and organized enough to have gotten this far. Quoted:
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I'd be the same as anywhere. The state breaks apart, and whoever has the most guns in one particular area kills the people not like them. Those people being killed then flee to wherever they're the majority and kill the people not like them there. That would never happen with the country as it is. The feds would step in at any point where that might happen and quell anything that could occur in an attempt to maintain control and power. Without a united front as a state or group of states you would have a "dual front" conflict both with the government and the people with whom your views are opposed and you would be put down. This is on the assumption that any resistance up to this point would be cohesive and organized enough to have gotten this far. The Feds live in the same neighborhoods as anybody else. Yugoslavia had a strong central government too. |
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The Feds live in the same neighborhoods as anybody else. Yugoslavia had a strong central government too. Quoted:
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I'd be the same as anywhere. The state breaks apart, and whoever has the most guns in one particular area kills the people not like them. Those people being killed then flee to wherever they're the majority and kill the people not like them there. That would never happen with the country as it is. The feds would step in at any point where that might happen and quell anything that could occur in an attempt to maintain control and power. Without a united front as a state or group of states you would have a "dual front" conflict both with the government and the people with whom your views are opposed and you would be put down. This is on the assumption that any resistance up to this point would be cohesive and organized enough to have gotten this far. The Feds live in the same neighborhoods as anybody else. Yugoslavia had a strong central government too. Dude, do you even Ukraine? 
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I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before.
Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. |
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There is a considerable amount of change that would have to happen before the US became truly balkanized. It seems that we are divided, but, the majority of people here have not lived/worked in truly fractured nations. It could happen, but there are still more commonalities than differences as of now. If nothing else, despite a lack of general love for the federal government, all sides are quite sure of fed.gov's abilty to put down a sizable faction if needed. Even it it did get worse, nobody wants to be that first faction to go down. |
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I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before. Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. |
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It would be the same as anywhere. The state breaks apart, and whoever has the most guns in one particular area kills the people not like them. Those people being killed then flee to wherever they're the majority and kill the people not like them there. Sadly, this |
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The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. Quoted:
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I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before. Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. I actually was writing that while you posted, so I didn't get to read it. That's a good question about outside influences. I'd say Alaska would have to fight a bear, California would be taken by the Chinese. Can you imagine the spin the world would be fed by the remaining govt and countries like England? I don't think anyone would be happy with the end result. |
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San Angeles
The Commonwealth of Gotham-Boston would claim rightful succession to the throne because DC got destroyed in the fighting Chicagoland Little Havana The New Confederate States of America The Grasslands The Mountain States of America The South West Wastelands The Republic of Texas The Peoples Republic of SeaTac The Peoples Republic of San Francisco would be in a constant battle to keep Oakland at bay The upper Midwest and the extreme NE would be cleared out of all but the hearty cold-loving Scandinavians/Germans the first winter And Alaska would get annexed by Russia |
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I actually was writing that while you posted, so I didn't get to read it. That's a good question about outside influences. I'd say Alaska would have to fight a bear, California would be taken by the Chinese. Can you imagine the spin the world would be fed by the remaining govt and countries like England? I don't think anyone would be happy with the end result. Quoted:
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I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before. Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. I actually was writing that while you posted, so I didn't get to read it. That's a good question about outside influences. I'd say Alaska would have to fight a bear, California would be taken by the Chinese. Can you imagine the spin the world would be fed by the remaining govt and countries like England? I don't think anyone would be happy with the end result. England at this point in history poses little to no threat. However it would be interesting to see who, or if they even would back either side in this situation. The real threats will be Russia, China, and the Middle East. With America in collapse as well as dealing with an internal conflict, they would see it as a golden opportunity to go for the throat, so to speak. |
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The America today is vastly different than that of the 1860's, even the most conservative states have oasis' and or diffuse liberalism. Your assessment of America in the 1860's is incorrect. There were pockets of unionism throughout the South, as well as pockets of Confederate sympathy in the North. In Texas, the recently-arrived German settlers in Central Texas were ardent unionists -- some even went north to join the Union army. There were pockets of anti-Confederate sentiment in the mountains of Tennessee, North Carolina, and even Alabama, with some counties trying to secede from their states. And of course, we know what happened in the western counties of Virginia -- they broke off to form their own state. In the meantime, there was lots of pro-Confederate agitation in Ohio, and Missouri, Maryland, and Kentucky were so divided that they barely stayed in the Union. |
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I believe the only way there will ever be any type of "balkanization" in the USA would be only if there was an economic collapse either on a national or global scale. So, less than ten years? Our economy is an unsustainable house of cards erected on a rickety table in a drafty room on a windy day. The collapse is inevitable, the only unknown is exactly when. |
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I believe the only way there will ever be any type of "balkanization" in the USA would be only if there was an economic collapse either on a national or global scale. Quoted:
I believe the only way there will ever be any type of "balkanization" in the USA would be only if there was an economic collapse either on a national or global scale. Currently 94 million people of working age are not working. 45 million plus are on food stamps. Military and Federal retirements are line items in annual budgets and are not funded in anyway by saved revenue. State and Local retirements, exceed the ability of their tax base to pay in all but a few states. Corporate pensions when they exist are for most part under water and incapable of meeting their obligations. 401k will be confiscated it is coming and even that will only be enough patch things for a couple of years. Anyway, here we go.... pull yourself a nice Espresso and sit down for a short story that will explain why we're utterly screwed if we don't act and why acting to stop the progression of what is going in our economy right now is not an option - it is an imperative.
There happens to be a particular species of pond lily that is extremely prolific. In fact it grows so fast that it doubles in size through both growth and reproduction in just one day. We will start with a pond of a surface area of 4096 square feet, or about 64 feet square. We will place within that pond one lily with an area of of one square foot; that is, a lily that is a square of 12 x 12". This pond contains fish, which would like to live in symbiosis with the algae and other growing plant material within the pond. In order to do some part of the pond's surface must be exposed to the air so that oxygen and carbon dioxide can be exchanged, and some part of the pond's surface must be open to the sun, or the algae that make up a good part of the food the fish eat (we will assume they do not eat the lilies directly) can survive. The lilies will conveniently consume the urea (nitrogen) that the fish excrete, preventing the pond water from becoming poisonous. So long as this symbiosis is maintained all is fine. But if this symbiotic relationship fails all the fish will die. We are the fish, incidentally, and the lilies are debt. Now here's the question: Will the fish inevitably die and if so how long, in days, will pass before they perish? That's easy. On the first day there is 1 square foot of pond that is covered. On the second, 2 On the third, 4. On the fourth, 8. On the fifth, 16. On the sixth, 32. Note that on the 6th day just 0.8% of the pond is covered with lilies. You would not detect any problem on the sixth day, I suspect. More than 99% of the pond is open to the sky! Now here's the nasty truth: If you're a fish you're halfway to being dead! Wide awake yet? I hope so; let's continue. On the seventh day 64 square feet are covered. On the eighth, 128. On the ninth, 256. On the tenth, 512. The pond is now 12.5% covered. More than 80% of the surface area is open to the sky. When you hear someone say "we have 80% of our resource left; we can't be in trouble", consider exactly where you are. Why? You'll see in a moment.... On the eleventh day, 1024 square feet are covered. On the twelfth, 2048. On the thirteenth day there is no surface open to the sky and every fish in the pond dies. When did you figure out you're in trouble? Was it on the twelfth day? Well if so you had literally less than 24 hours to commit mass lilicide or you're all dead! You literally can't spend one day debating with your fellow fish even though you still have half the surface area open to the sky on that 11th day. This is the nature of exponents folks. -- http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=196155 Watch this (NOT WND) video from Bill Whittle and tell me a collapse is NOT coming... 
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I like it. |
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I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before. Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. I don't think we could afford to repair (more like replace) a city like SF or LA if "the big one" hit. I suspect they would be on their own after about a year and the cost was fully realized. I've read where insurance companies would file for Chapter 11 as soon the dust settled after a huge CA quake. |
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The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before. Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. Intervention by another power seeking to free the U.S. people. If the military is preoccupied with putting down internal resistance it will leave gaps that can be exploited. We are not immune by any stretch. Just pure speculation here. I'm not condoning anything. The last thing I want to see happen is for the U.S.A. to break apart into warring factions and for our way of life to vanish. I would prefer it if our government got its shit together and quit fucking around with all of this stuff that doesn't matter. It's embarrassing to me to observe the nonsense that goes on with our politicians. |
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Intervention by another power seeking to free the U.S. people. If the military is preoccupied with putting down internal resistance it will leave gaps that can be exploited. We are not immune by any stretch. Just pure speculation here. I'm not condoning anything. The last thing I want to see happen is for the U.S.A. to break apart into warring factions and for our way of life to vanish. I would prefer it if our government got its shit together and quit fucking around with all of this stuff that doesn't matter. It's embarrassing to me to observe the nonsense that goes on with our politicians. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before. Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. Intervention by another power seeking to free the U.S. people. If the military is preoccupied with putting down internal resistance it will leave gaps that can be exploited. We are not immune by any stretch. Just pure speculation here. I'm not condoning anything. The last thing I want to see happen is for the U.S.A. to break apart into warring factions and for our way of life to vanish. I would prefer it if our government got its shit together and quit fucking around with all of this stuff that doesn't matter. It's embarrassing to me to observe the nonsense that goes on with our politicians. You have much more optimism about that then I do. The U.S. has spent the last 60 years as the school yard bully, taking lunch money and handing out wedgies at will. If we were to show any kind of weakness whatsoever I believe that even our biggest supporters would turn on us if not just turn their backs while the rest of the planet pounced. |
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That's probably not far from the truth. We'll just have to wait and see whether our politicians wise up enough to focus on the things that will keep us together as one great nation full of a badass people.
At this rate we're just going to rot away slowly while the rest of the world laughs at our decadence, self delusion and impotence. The first stage moves from bondage to spiritual faith. The second from spiritual faith to great courage. The third stage moves from great courage to liberty. The fourth stage moves from liberty to abundance. The fifth stage moves from abundance to selfishness. The sixth stage moves from selfishness to complacency. The seventh stage moves from complacency to apathy. The eighth stage moves from apathy to moral decay. The ninth stage moves from moral decay to dependence. And the tenth and last stage moves from dependence to bondage. |
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Quoted:
That's probably not far from the truth. We'll just have to wait and see whether our politicians wise up enough to focus on the things that will keep us together as one great nation full of a badass people. At this rate we're just going to rot away slowly while the rest of the world laughs at our decadence, self delusion and impotence. The first stage moves from bondage to spiritual faith. The second from spiritual faith to great courage. The third stage moves from great courage to liberty. The fourth stage moves from liberty to abundance. The fifth stage moves from abundance to selfishness. The sixth stage moves from selfishness to complacency. The seventh stage moves from complacency to apathy. The eighth stage moves from apathy to moral decay. The ninth stage moves from moral decay to dependence. And the tenth and last stage moves from dependence to bondage. We are in the death throes of stage 9??? |
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Quoted: Disclaimer: This is a hypothetical set of questions. At no point am I condoning anything that could be potentially discussed in this topic, however I am trying to understand how some people believe this to be a legitimate course of action in a hypothetical future. I have seen in multiple topics in the recent past where individuals post about, or call upon potential secession of states from the union. A second American revolution if you will. The question I propose to this idea is that with America being so diverse in culture, beliefs, political views, etc. anymore how would such a thing even be feasible? The America today is vastly different than that of the 1860's, even the most conservative states have oasis' and or diffuse liberalism. Most of these tending to be large population centers with a significant portion of the states total population residing in them. Also, as seen with sites like DU, these people are not only ready for conflict against those who do not share their beliefs, they openly encourage it. With there being no substantial defined geographical lines to separate populations with similar mindsets and beliefs as there were the last time the nation was completely polarized, and with a over reaching government literally in every state and every area of the country, what would be the catalyst? How would division actually happen? What would the results of that division be with government influence as it stands? and how would individual states hope to maintain themselves in the chaos that would ensue? Discuss America is not diverse. It has become monotonously homogenized. Regional differences are the exceptions rather than the rule - in other words, you have to hunt for them, like local restaurants. Go to any smallish city and it's the same chain restaurants, the same chain hotels, the newspapers are consolidated chain papers, the TV news is uniformly structured in the same way with talking heads aping the network anchors, everyone goes to the same chain theaters to watch the uniform Hollywood movies while listening to the same "music" and commenting on everyone else's national FaceBook page while rooting for the Braves or the Steelers or the Cowboys or the Yankees. People are mobile. Except for small towns many people are from somewhere else (try to find a native Georgian in Atlanta or a Tar Heel in Charlotte, etc.). No one considers themselves a citizen of their state first and then an American. Even our politics are separated (generally) by a matter of degrees. 90% of the country thinks the Federal government runs the states and is all for smaller government as long as they get their part (farm subsidies, green energy 'loans', food stamps, earned income credit, mortgage interest deduction, legalized pot, gay marriage, 'equal pay', $25 minimum wage, Social Security, Obamacare, whatever). |
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We are in the death throes of stage 9??? Quoted:
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That's probably not far from the truth. We'll just have to wait and see whether our politicians wise up enough to focus on the things that will keep us together as one great nation full of a badass people. At this rate we're just going to rot away slowly while the rest of the world laughs at our decadence, self delusion and impotence. The first stage moves from bondage to spiritual faith. The second from spiritual faith to great courage. The third stage moves from great courage to liberty. The fourth stage moves from liberty to abundance. The fifth stage moves from abundance to selfishness. The sixth stage moves from selfishness to complacency. The seventh stage moves from complacency to apathy. The eighth stage moves from apathy to moral decay. The ninth stage moves from moral decay to dependence. And the tenth and last stage moves from dependence to bondage. We are in the death throes of stage 9??? Supposedly. I guess we will see if the above holds any water. |
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Quoted: America is not diverse. It has become monotonously homogenized. Regional differences are the exceptions rather than the rule - in other words, you have to hunt for them, like local restaurants. Go to any smallish city and it's the same chain restaurants, the same chain hotels, the newspapers are consolidated chain papers, the TV news is uniformly structured in the same way with talking heads aping the network anchors, everyone goes to the same chain theaters to watch the uniform Hollywood movies while listening to the same "music" and commenting on everyone else's national FaceBook page while rooting for the Braves or the Steelers or the Cowboys or the Yankees. People are mobile. Except for small towns many people are from somewhere else (try to find a native Georgian in Atlanta or a Tar Heel in Charlotte, etc.). No one considers themselves a citizen of their state first and then an American. Even our politics are separated (generally) by a matter of degrees. 90% of the country thinks the Federal government runs the states and is all for smaller government as long as they get their part (farm subsidies, green energy 'loans', food stamps, earned income credit, mortgage interest deduction, legalized pot, gay marriage, 'equal pay', $25 minimum wage, Social Security, Obamacare, whatever). Good summation. I have thought the same ever since my travels around the nation in the summers of high school. |
| I'm with that other guy further up -- America is remarkably homogenous. MOST Americans can agree on a VERY wide range of issues, even issues that are supposedly divisive -- like race, government spending, role of government, etc. Americans all have a very high standard of living, and will do whatever is required to keep it that way. Also, with the way the Constitution is written, it's a lot easier and effective for a group of states to just assert more control over their affairs than it is for them to secede. |
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Bring it on. You have no idea what lies in wait on the farms of America. Quoted:
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The biggest divide is between urban and rural. The cities will starve if they don't subjugate the surrounding farmlands with the quickness. Bring it on. You have no idea what lies in wait on the farms of America. People willing and able to contribute to eradicating one of the problems: Thieves. In all fairness, this will likely only happen in small numbers early on. The same thing will happen as it did in the Balkans; farmers will still produce and sell food, others with the ability to pay will buy it. Those without will find a way to pay. Those most successful at getting food to those needing it will be most successful when it 'ends'. This will of course include gangs and mafias, which makes rebuilding efforts even harder. The 'Great Collapse' I think a lot of people are preparing for, and some may be even hoping for, is not going to play out as most think and it isn't going to end after a few years. The scars in society will run deep for decades and likely cause segregation, which could actually help in the short term. Like it or not, homogeneous societies (not necessarily strictly on racial bounds) generally have less internal problems (much to their neighbors' chagrin). |
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The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. Quoted:
Quoted:
I'd say if it happens a lot of liberals who hypocritically own firearms will suddenly have a change of mindset. If the US breaks up it will be because something destroyed the current govt. A economy collapse or natural disaster on a scale never seen before. Homeland will not let it happen if it still has teeth. The part in red is what I was trying to convey in my last post. That barring any absolute collapse they will fight to the death to maintain power and control. The question is what could or would be done to counteract that? Also, if a total collapse were to occur and a second civil war were to happen. Would an outcome even be achieved before the rest of the world collectively crushed us. No. We we be invaded by our enemies once they sensed that the central .gov was weak enough. |
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Balkanization of the US on Arfcom is so 6 years ago. There used to be 6-8 threads a week on it. You should check the archives. Yeah, but it is coming back Captain Commando. You see, in those six years it has been discovered that there is NO MONEY TREE in WASHINGTON DC 
You see, the only Balkanization turned out to be just the wide gulf between those who believed you could borrow and spend your way out of financial doom, and those who did not believe. 
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